Leader of the Pack & Stances

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

A 360 radius on this trait makes it only usable for stacking in raids or PvE, this could easily be made 600 so to be more in line with Powerful Auras (Elementalist), the stances seem to be very similar to auras.

Also, why the half duration?

Something like Vulture Stance is fairly useless as it would account for just 15 stacks of poison, while a target is under 50% health, if all party members are in range to be affected by it, on a 30s CD. And you need to use a GM trait to do it. Compare that to Spider Venom on vanilla thief which is double the poison application, isn’t health conditional and doesn’t require a trait at all, let alone a GM one. As for the might above 50%, well, sharing 3 stacks of might for 7s every 30s? Rubbish.

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

I thought the “interval” of this skill was 1s, but in fact, it is 0.5s so that would bring the poison stacks capable up to 30 the same as Spider Venom. But you still have to have 5 people hit every 0.5s for the whole duration for that to happen, Spider Venom allows 24s to do the same for the same effect.

Bear and Dolyak Stances are amazingly good, Wolf is possibly very good if the interval is not too long. Griffon is kinda… Dunno. Maybe if the Might stacks had a longer duration.

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Posted by: Aleksander Suburb.4287

Aleksander Suburb.4287

I think the effects of the stances will be too powerful in wvw zergs. So they must seperate them from pve.

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

I think the effects of the stances will be too powerful in wvw zergs. So they must seperate them from pve.

Dolyak and Bear will be good, for sure, but they are not too powerful. They are actually 100% what is needed currently with the condi spam meta. Leader of the Pack with full durations would make Ranger very useful for WvW.

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Posted by: Wondrouswall.7169

Wondrouswall.7169

No, man. Take a look again at the stances. Leader of the Pack seems in-line. 100% duration and extended shared range is asking for more power creep – don’t.

Vulture Stance has a ½s interval, so affected allies can activate the effects of gaining might or poisoning foes up to 6 times combined. 100% duration is what is NOT needed with the current condition and boom spam, because that will only add towards it – that’s not good balance in the slightest.

All these stances provide something useful, especially Griffon Stance, which is a unique 100% endurance regeneration that will stack with profession endurance regeneration and vigor. Dodges are always useful.

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Posted by: Durzlla.6295

Durzlla.6295

No, man. Take a look again at the stances. Leader of the Pack seems in-line. 100% duration and extended shared range is asking for more power creep – don’t.

Vulture Stance has a ½s interval, so affected allies can activate the effects of gaining might or poisoning foes up to 6 times combined. 100% duration is what is NOT needed with the current condition and boom spam, because that will only add towards it – that’s not good balance in the slightest.

All these stances provide something useful, especially Griffon Stance, which is a unique 100% endurance regeneration that will stack with profession endurance regeneration and vigor. Dodges are always useful.

Good god, it’s 100%? I can hear it already, “put the soulbeast in the mirage raid group so we can melt things.”

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As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna

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Posted by: Wondrouswall.7169

Wondrouswall.7169

It’s 50% shared duration. Not 100%. I’m going against the notion of increasing it to 100%, let alone the shared radius from 360 to 600.

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Posted by: anduriell.6280

anduriell.6280

It’s 50% shared duration. Not 100%. I’m going against the notion of increasing it to 100%, let alone the shared radius from 360 to 600.

Just keep in mind this when 6 months after the release we will be whining about the underwhelming instances. I’m seeing them already lacklustre and i haven’t played with them yet.

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Posted by: Wondrouswall.7169

Wondrouswall.7169

I hear you. It will most likely come to that. As for now, they seem finely-tuned, but I expect the nerf bat to hit since people are quick to call everything OP – especially if it’s on the Ranger – and the devs are quicker to react to it.

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

…especially Griffon Stance, which is a unique 100% endurance regeneration that will stack with profession endurance regeneration and vigor. Dodges are always useful.

Signet of Agility alone is better than Griffon Stance and Leader of the Pack combined. This needs work. I’m sure you realise that 4s of 100% endurance regen is not even 1 dodge every kitten Endurance regen is capped at 100%, so vigor, natural vigor, endless stamina etc will have no additional effect while it is active.

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

…let alone the shared radius from 360 to 600.

You obviously have no desire to play WvW.

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Posted by: Wondrouswall.7169

Wondrouswall.7169

Man, you are just asking for more power creep by drawing in those comparisons. It’s a mix of offense and defense, while Signet of Agility is completely defensive.

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Posted by: Durzlla.6295

Durzlla.6295

It’s 50% shared duration. Not 100%. I’m going against the notion of increasing it to 100%, let alone the shared radius from 360 to 600.

Sorry I should’ve been more specific, I was talking about the griffon stance lol, if our stances duration were 100% shared I’d be concerned with how Anet is balancing this game.

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As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna

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Posted by: Wondrouswall.7169

Wondrouswall.7169

…let alone the shared radius from 360 to 600.

You obviously have no desire to play WvW.

Hey, thanks for making assumptions!

Low radius on these. 360 is fair enough. Lunar Impact is a clear example of how many targets can be hit with such a number. Combo blasts are also 360 radius. I see no issue with that number.

Be happy it’s not 240, but then again, it might get nerfed to that later. What I see is you want more, on top of more. Do you have no desire to keep the power creep in check? Because it seems you want to add more to the ongoing problems.

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Man, you are just asking for more power creep by drawing in those comparisons. It’s a mix of offense and defense, while Signet of Agility is completely defensive.

Except for the 180 precision as a passive effect though? Though you are right, it removing 15 conditions is also defensive.

How is it power creep to ask that a stance for an eSpec when combined with a GM trait is at least as good as a vanilla signet?

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Posted by: Wondrouswall.7169

Wondrouswall.7169

How is it power creep to ask that a stance for an eSpec when combined with a GM trait is at least as good as a vanilla signet?

Here, let me break that down. Thief is a completely selfish class that lacks group support while the Ranger is drowning in it.

We share so many buffs and boons, and then stacking that on top of what other professions can share in a group setting is why I think that is fine, especially when combined with the GM trait.

It’s amazing that the GM even exists. Even if it ends up not breaking the endurance cap (to be fair, none of us know yet if it will or not), we can still provide group vigor among other things while Thief has their 1 Signet which works with groups.

If they want to add more to a group, they have to slot venoms, and they are useful as offensive and snare tools while the heal works while being niche. It’s all good in those regards.

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Posted by: Durzlla.6295

Durzlla.6295

Man, you are just asking for more power creep by drawing in those comparisons. It’s a mix of offense and defense, while Signet of Agility is completely defensive.

Except for the 180 precision as a passive effect though? Though you are right, it removing 15 conditions is also defensive.

How is it power creep to ask that a stance for an eSpec when combined with a GM trait is at least as good as a vanilla signet?

Well, elite specs aren’t meant to be upgrades, so that “for an elite spec” thing is irrelevant, but signet of agility has the same radius as griffin stance, and only in the rarest of circumstances are people going to actually benefit from the full 100 endurance gain. Not to mention it doesn’t incentivize them to dodge to gain might, and it doesn’t make them gain might on EVADES, that means if you were to pop your dog of agility and then pistol whip in a fire field you’re gaining 100 endurance, cleansing 3 condo and losing 180 precision, where if it were griffin stance you’d be gaining might on all the evade procs, regening at 100%, but will still be on fire.

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

How is it power creep to ask that a stance for an eSpec when combined with a GM trait is at least as good as a vanilla signet?

Here, let me break that down. Thief is a completely selfish class that lacks group support while the Ranger is drowning in it.

We share so many buffs and boons, and then stacking that on top of what other professions can share in a group setting is why I think that is fine, especially when combined with the GM trait.

It’s amazing that the GM even exists. Even if it ends up not breaking the endurance cap (to be fair, none of us know yet if it will or not), we can still provide group vigor among other things while Thief has their 1 Signet which works with groups.

If they want to add more to a group, they have to slot venoms, and they are useful as offensive and snare tools while the heal works while being niche. It’s all good in those regards.

Look, if that’s how you feel, that is fine. But, for me, the fact that Spider Venom and Signet of Agility are better than Vulture and Griffon Stance when combined with a GM trait is pretty lame.

I think you are forgetting about Bountiful Theft too.

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Posted by: Wondrouswall.7169

Wondrouswall.7169

No, I didn’t forget. Bountiful Theft requires Steal to connect to grant its effects. Negating a steal pretty much tosses it out. Vigorous Training just happens.

Spider Venom and Signet of Agility have their own thing. Vulture and Griffon stance has their own thing. Signet of Agility refills peeps endurance and cleanses conditions, Griffon stance provides an uncorruptable buff that is essentially 8s of vigor in 4s for allies and grants a no ICD might when evading attacks.

Spider Venom is a straight up DPS increase and heal debuff while Vulture offers might to allies to take down targets above 50% health, and then weakens their healing with additional DPS while they are below it.

One is not better than the other, and are different enough to fit different scenarios and settings. Come on, man. We all know apples are better than oranges.

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

No, I didn’t forget. Bountiful Theft requires Steal to connect to grant its effects. Negating a steal pretty much tosses it out. Vigorous Training just happens.

Spider Venom and Signet of Agility have their own thing. Vulture and Griffon stance has their own thing. Signet of Agility refills peeps endurance and cleanses conditions, Griffon stance provides an uncorruptable buff that is essentially 8s of vigor in 4s for allies and grants a no ICD might when evading attacks.

Spider Venom is a straight up DPS increase and heal debuff while Vulture offers might to allies to take down targets above 50% health, and then weakens their healing with additional DPS while they are below it.

One is not better than the other, and are different enough to fit different scenarios and settings. Come on, man. We all know apples are better than oranges.

Come on man, a couple of might for 7s, if eneryone lands the hits in the time frame hardly compares to 30 stacks of poison. Both are DPS increases.

Vigorous Training is just another trait, nothing to do with this functionality and it also only applies in a 300 radius around the pet, steal applying in a 240 radius around the target is far better, even when you take the radius into account, not even counting the stolen boons. Few people can avoid a steal.

If you are going to make the eSpecs horizontal progression, it at least needs to compare to the other skills that do the same thing. They made venom sharing baseline for a reason. The stances need to be improved to compare.

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Posted by: Wondrouswall.7169

Wondrouswall.7169

And how is it you arrived at the conclusion Stances need to be compared and improved to Venoms? I see Warrior stances, and compare these stances to theirs, and then look at how these stances fit into what SB and the condition application Ranger has, and it seems fine.

When I think group utility, I think of shouts, and how the other ones could use tweaking and more improvements. As I see it, it’s only been 1 day after the announcement and you’re asking for buffs on stuff before you even tested it.

I’m saying no for extended duration and range, and the others that chimed in agree with that sentiment, but we’ll see when we can all demo it more than a week from now.

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

And how is it you arrived at the conclusion Stances need to be compared and improved to Venoms? I see Warrior stances, and compare these stances to theirs, and then look at how these stances fit into what SB and the condition application Ranger has, and it seems fine.

When I think group utility, I think of shouts, and how the other ones could use tweaking and more improvements. As I see it, it’s only been 1 day after the announcement and you’re asking for buffs on stuff before you even tested it.

I’m saying no for extended duration and range, and the others that chimed in agree with that sentiment, but we’ll see when we can all demo it more than a week from now.

So, because the label attached to the skill makes it similar to another? Any one skill should have somewhat equal benefit as another that does the same or very similar thing.

You don’t need to test this stuff, it’s purely numbers. If the numbers, which will determine the possible benefits, do not add up to something that already exists and does a very similar job, it should be brought into line.

Seriously, what scenarios can you see where Griffon or Vulture Stance will be a real benefit over some other class abilities that also require a GM trait and eSPec to function?

(edited by Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582)

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Posted by: Wondrouswall.7169

Wondrouswall.7169

Hey, looks like we’re at an impasse!

I want tests, results from those tests, then tweaking. There’s no point in going back and forth since what I say is not going to agree with you and vice-versa. Agree to disagree?

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Hey, looks like we’re at an impasse!

I want tests, results from those tests, then tweaking. There’s no point in going back and forth since what I say is not going to agree with you and vice-versa. Agree to disagree?

I bow to your diplomacy. I also want tests, results from those tests, then tweaking. But I also want balance between all skills of similar role. Seems we are one the same path, from different ends.

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Posted by: Wondrouswall.7169

Wondrouswall.7169

I’ll say this, if some of those stances are underwhelming and could use buffing, I’ll be more than happy to agree to buff the heck out of it! I can budge on an increased radius. I thought about it. I still want to see if 360 radius is suitable, but if it’s increased to 600, I’ll be all for it.

We are, indeed, on the same path from different ends – and beneath all of this, we both want these stances, Soulbeast, and Ranger overall to perform well. In that regards, I do admire your tenacity on wanting to bring attention to these stances to be more than they are now.

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

I’d just like to also see some continuity between ranger skills and ranges, take pet F2 skill effects for example, I’m sure you know, but for others see the image attached. Not only Ranger skills and ranges, but all skills that affect allies with effects. Auras are one that I believe are very similar to the stances, but they can be shared over a 600 radius, making them far more useful. Also I just believe that every single skill should have a somewhat equal opportunity cost.

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Posted by: Holland.9351

Holland.9351

That image is hilarious . 300 radius, 600 radius, 240 radius, 240 radius.

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Posted by: Durzlla.6295

Durzlla.6295

I’m ok with auras having a larger radius of share than stances tbh because auras require you to be smacked in the face or shot to do anything, where our stance effects do not.

That being said if I try the stances and they feel awful with that small range of sharing I will demand 600 like others.

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Posted by: Aleksander Suburb.4287

Aleksander Suburb.4287

600 is okay for me. In wvw it doesn’t matter, because everbody stands in a zerg next to next. And in PvE it would be much more fun if you can give it to all teammates and not just the one or two standing next to you

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Posted by: InsaneQR.7412

InsaneQR.7412

I thought the “interval” of this skill was 1s, but in fact, it is 0.5s so that would bring the poison stacks capable up to 30 the same as Spider Venom. But you still have to have 5 people hit every 0.5s for the whole duration for that to happen, Spider Venom allows 24s to do the same for the same effect.

Bear and Dolyak Stances are amazingly good, Wolf is possibly very good if the interval is not too long. Griffon is kinda… Dunno. Maybe if the Might stacks had a longer duration.

I wonder if wolf would proc the vulture stance? This could be very sick in a group.environment.

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

I thought the “interval” of this skill was 1s, but in fact, it is 0.5s so that would bring the poison stacks capable up to 30 the same as Spider Venom. But you still have to have 5 people hit every 0.5s for the whole duration for that to happen, Spider Venom allows 24s to do the same for the same effect.

Bear and Dolyak Stances are amazingly good, Wolf is possibly very good if the interval is not too long. Griffon is kinda… Dunno. Maybe if the Might stacks had a longer duration.

I wonder if wolf would proc the vulture stance? This could be very sick in a group.environment.

It should, since it is a “second strike” not just another damage packet. Both the skills use the word “strike” so I believe it will.