Guild Wars 2

Lightning Reflexes is one of the few but limited stunbreakers ranger has.
It has a pretty long CD as a stunbreaker compare to other classes’ stunbreaker.
On a certain update, Anet added lightning reflexes to remove immobile so it wouldn’t be so useless as a long CD retreat skill.
However, this does not solve the issue Lightning Reflexes has.

Lightning Reflexes’s retreat distance is greatly hindered by movement control conditions, such as cripple and chill. Once chilled, the retreat distance of this skill is becomes unreliable, and makes the purpose of this skill less meaningful.

There’re 2 other variants of the skill that does similar thing to Lightning Reflexes:
Thief’s retreat (healing skill), and rocket boot from engi.
Both of those skills have one thing in common, they all remove chill, cripple and immobile. I think in order for lightning reflexes to be a reliable retreat skill, it should have the same function as the other 2 variants.

You may argue that rocket boot and retreat is not a stunbreaker, so lightning reflexes shouldn’t get all the benefit of those 2 skills, however, those 2 skills have much shorter cool down compare to lightning reflexes, so the CD difference should justify the addition stunbreak function. (Not to mention engi got the tool belt skill of long last burning from rocket boot too) Also, Anet can just remove that pity damage from the skill as a compensation for adding chill and cripple removal.

For now, it is hard to pick this skill over Signet of Restoration if I’m not playing a Sotf build.

I wonder though if they were to do that if it would just end up “Remove 2 Conditions” instead of specific conditions.

I wouldn’t mind trading that damage at all since I don’t use it as a damage dealing utility at all, only as a stun breaker.

thefantasticg.3984:

I wonder though if they were to do that if it would just end up “Remove 2 Conditions” instead of specific conditions.

I wouldn’t mind trading that damage at all since I don’t use it as a damage dealing utility at all, only as a stun breaker.

Simply “remove 2 conditions” do not make it a better escape skill. (Some classes will just spam countless conditions on you)
This skill’s distance is affected by these soft CC, so it is important to reliably remove both of them while using this skill. If you want the regular “remove 2 conditions” you can always trait for Sotf.

Also, this is to keep the skill consistency in terms of their goals and purposes.

Roll for Initiative removes immobilize, cripple and chill while being a stun breaker. On a 60s cooldown but also gives thief 6 initiative.

It would go a long way though. And even with SotF removing two extra conditions I don’t see it being OP.

Aomine.5012:

I think in order for lightning reflexes to be a reliable retreat skill, it should have the same function as the other 2 variants.

Rocket boots doesn’t evade attacks and is a blast finisher and you forgot the 10 sec based of vigor with LR.The 3 skills haven’t got the same primary fonction. LR is made to break stun while evading attacks and recover your dodge bar(and the immo break was a very necessary change because immo prevent the dodge, not chill and cripple). This change would be too powerful in a SOTF build or even a S/D evade ranger. It works perfectly fine to me.

borya.2964:

Aomine.5012:

I think in order for lightning reflexes to be a reliable retreat skill, it should have the same function as the other 2 variants.

Rocket boots doesn’t evade attacks and is a blast finisher and you forgot the 10 sec based of vigor with LR.The 3 skills haven’t got the same primary fonction. LR is made to break stun while evading attacks and recover your dodge bar(and the immo break was a very necessary change because immo prevent the dodge, not chill and cripple). This change would be too powerful in a SOTF build or even a S/D evade ranger. It works perfectly fine to me.

Not to mention rocket boot travels further, has HALF of the cool down of lightning reflexes, serves as a blast finisher (it can blast water field with healing turret f1 for additional heal), and grant an addition very long duration AOE burning.
I’d take that skill over lightning reflexes all day if my ranger has the option of picking that skill. (well, only if we can generate water field on f1…)

I can’t tell you how many times i got saved by this skill as an engineer thanks for it’s super long distance jump, as well as removing all soft CC. I don’t see lightning reflexes would be anywhere remotely OP just because it removes soft CC, because rocket boot has other functions too, and let me repeat, the CD is HALF.

Also you’re assuming all rangers have to waste 6 points on nature for SotF…
SotF is just the ranger version of ele’s cantrap cleanse, just that ele’s cantrap cleanse is on master not grandmaster.

OMG. I literally just posted a similar thread.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Annoying-Ranger-Bugs-Avoiding-Being-Addressed/first#post4864781

Aomine.5012:

I don’t see lightning reflexes would be anywhere remotely OP just because it removes soft CC, because rocket boot has other functions too, and let me repeat, the CD is HALF.

Remove soft cc is the primary fonction of rocket boots, and as i said, it’s not the purpose of LR. It’s as simple as that.

Right now you can use LR in 3 differents ways : to break stun, to remove immobilize or evade attacks (you have 10 sec based of vigor each time). It’s a very good skill to me but you would like to have the choice to use it in a forth way, because the way you explained it, you would only use it to also remove chill and/or cripple in some situations. As a LR user, the change would be awsome but i think it’s too much. If LR doesn’t fit your build, don’t use it.

borya.2964:

This change would be too powerful in a SOTF build or even a S/D evade ranger.

Not all builds that use LR also use SotF. Namely the power builds and even a lot of condition builds. Rangers in general have little to no ways to actively deal with soft cc and LR fits perfect. A grandmaster skill shouldn’t limit it, and I really don’t think it would OP even with it. Cripple and chill seriously hamper the skill’s practical use in both combat and escapes.

The best comparison would be to Roll for Initiative. Even with a 16s longer cooldown (traited) I think they are quite similar. The differences are being that LR grants vigor while RfI gains 6 initiative. Obviously the initiative deserves a longer cooldown, but I don’t think 16s less deserves to not clear cripple and chill.

Shanks.2907:

Cripple and chill seriously hamper the skill’s practical use in both combat and escapes.

I am a LR user in a power build without SOTF.

And yes, an evade skill wich is made to primary break stun and recover your dodge bar is seriously hampered by chill and cripple. And a skill, like rocket boots, wich is made to remove soft cc is seriously hampered by a control effect like stun and daze. I don’t get the point, really.

Shanks.2907:

I think they are quite similar

Nope, RFI is an evade skill made to BOTH remove cc and break stun and it’s a pretty unique thief utility. That’s the point.

I have a better idea.

What if it didn’t remove neither chill nor cripple conditions.
But what if the damage component was traded for another bonus utility function… Such as… A 0.25 second daze on a single target it hits.

I sincerely do not want skills to be the same in this game. I want them in similar value. Not functionality. And that’s why I am perfectly fine with it only removing immobilize (and 2 more random condis if traited).

I do not understand the damage component with low damage and low scaling on a 40 second cooldown ability that is supposed to “get you out of there”.

borya.2964:

Shanks.2907:

Cripple and chill seriously hamper the skill’s practical use in both combat and escapes.

I am a LR user in a power build without SOTF.

And yes, an evade skill wich is made to primary break stun and recover your dodge bar is seriously hampered by chill and cripple. And a skill, like rocket boots, wich is made to remove soft cc is seriously hampered by a control effect like stun and daze. I don’t get the point, really.

Shanks.2907:

I think they are quite similar

Nope, RFI is an evade skill made to BOTH remove cc and break stun and it’s a pretty unique thief utility. That’s the point.

Sigh, you don’t get it right…
I want ranger have tool to help them make gap between opponents without always sacrificing the whole trait line to do so. Soft CC is actually more damaging than hard CC to ranger in an 1 on 1 situation (Because chill and cripple usually last a very long time without cleanse.)

Our current way to deal with soft CC is to either sacrifices a full traits into a non damaging line, or bring a very weak pet to cleanse (bear), or burn a 60 seconds signet.
None of our “utilities” help us make the distance if being hit by soft CC. Lightning Reflex should at least do this for us. Like I said, the CD is long, and the travel distance is not long, so it wouldn’t be unreasonable to add soft CC removal just like the other 3 variants.

borya.2964:

Aomine.5012:

I don’t see lightning reflexes would be anywhere remotely OP just because it removes soft CC, because rocket boot has other functions too, and let me repeat, the CD is HALF.

Remove soft cc is the primary fonction of rocket boots, and as i said, it’s not the purpose of LR. It’s as simple as that.

Right now you can use LR in 3 differents ways : to break stun, to remove immobilize or evade attacks (you have 10 sec based of vigor each time). It’s a very good skill to me but you would like to have the choice to use it in a forth way, because the way you explained it, you would only use it to also remove chill and/or cripple in some situations. As a LR user, the change would be awsome but i think it’s too much. If LR doesn’t fit your build, don’t use it.

LOL remove immobile chill and cripple should count as ONE way though. It is to help you make distance and not like being a dead meat.

I’d like them to create something like rocket boot, give up all the vigor/ breakstun and dodge stuff, and just make it a CD20 copy paste of the rocket boot if you think LR is so perfect and doesn’t need a change. Or give us a skill exactly like thief’s retreat, 15 CD on a utility slot, but doesn’t heal.

If we have “choice” to pick from our “utilities only” , I wouldn’t have propose this change. Truth is we have no choice, no useful utilities to do the job.

Aomine.5012:

I’d like them to create something like rocket boot, give up all the vigor/ breakstun and dodge stuff, and just make it a CD20 copy paste of the rocket boot if you think LR is so perfect and doesn’t need a change. Or give us a skill exactly like thief’s retreat, 15 CD on a utility slot, but doesn’t heal.

If we have “choice” to pick from our “utilities only” , I wouldn’t have propose this change. Truth is we have no choice, no useful utilities to do the job.

Would I be wrong to say, that what you mean is that you want something that buff your build without having to sacrifice anything.

Thieves have easy access to evade because this is their way to mitigate damage while rangers have traits/utility that do it in an other way. And… thieves are laughable when it come to condi removal in front of the tools that rangers have.

Don’t get me wrong, if i always temper your posts, it’s not a grudge or whatever, it’s just that you seem to want to open the pandora box and, for the self preservation of an healthy ranger profession I must temper you. What you want, will definitely end up in the dhumfire scenario which have hurt (a lot) necromancers.

Dadnir.5038:

Aomine.5012:

I’d like them to create something like rocket boot, give up all the vigor/ breakstun and dodge stuff, and just make it a CD20 copy paste of the rocket boot if you think LR is so perfect and doesn’t need a change. Or give us a skill exactly like thief’s retreat, 15 CD on a utility slot, but doesn’t heal.

If we have “choice” to pick from our “utilities only” , I wouldn’t have propose this change. Truth is we have no choice, no useful utilities to do the job.

Would I be wrong to say, that what you mean is that you want something that buff your build without having to sacrifice anything.

Thieves have easy access to evade because this is their way to mitigate damage while rangers have traits/utility that do it in an other way. And… thieves are laughable when it come to condi removal in front of the tools that rangers have.

Don’t get me wrong, if i always temper your posts, it’s not a grudge or whatever, it’s just that you seem to want to open the pandora box and, for the self preservation of an healthy ranger profession I must temper you. What you want, will definitely end up in the dhumfire scenario which have hurt (a lot) necromancers.

Granting extra ability to deal with soft CC on a 40 seconds cool down is not an unreasonable request. Like I said, thief can do so every 15 seconds, and engineer can do so every 20 seconds. (And engi has way more “utilities” to choose from, no need to force everything on heavily invested trait just to get a cleanse or something)
As ranger who’s suppose to “make range”, we do not have the proper tool to do so other than using our weapon skills.

I always ask for reasonable change that is most like an QoL change, that’d improve the ranger’s sub-par status and give them more tools to survive in the meta. I never ask for any OP changes like “makes rapid fire damage pack in one shot”.

I’d be fine if it just ignored cripple / chill rather than removing them.

The condition would still be there, but the distance travelled by LR wouldn’t be neutered by them. You’d go the same distance no matter if you were crippled / chilled or not. That way it doesn’t behave exactly the same as other skills, but the movement doesn’t become inconsequential when soft-CC’d either.

If the engine itself can’t accomplish something like that, then the upcoming new boon will provide a solution. Just have LR give 1 second of Resistance which activates before the movement takes place.

LR needs to get rid of the damage. I’m tired of being stunned and hitting LR and there’s and ele or necro or whatever that has something up that when they take damage they interrupt yourLR, which prevents the LR from evading and clearing anything at all.

You really don’t understand why it would be overpowered? This is ridiculous… You just want to get rid of the weakness of your glass canon build.

Like I said, this change will be good for your build. But, if you look at things from a different way, it will overpowered other builds. Leading to an endless and needless nerfbat train.

Your energy will be spent in a better way if you were trying to address real issues like shout and sharpening stone. Or maybe the fact that the longbow outshine every other ranger’s weapon. Or our lack of controle over the skills of our pets. Well, things that don’t really impact your glass build but cripple the ranger a lot more.

sigh Just let it ignore cripple/chill for the time jumping back. Problem solved.

Dadnir.5038:

You really don’t understand why it would be overpowered? This is ridiculous… You just want to get rid of the weakness of your glass canon build.

Like I said, this change will be good for your build. But, if you look at things from a different way, it will overpowered other builds. Leading to an endless and needless nerfbat train.

Your energy will be spent in a better way if you were trying to address real issues like shout and sharpening stone. Or maybe the fact that the longbow outshine every other ranger’s weapon. Or our lack of controle over the skills of our pets. Well, things that don’t really impact your glass build but cripple the ranger a lot more.

So what build exactly in mind do you think it’d be overpowered on a 40 seconds CD soft CC removal?

Sotf variant? That build damage potential is at least 33% lower than the regular glass bow, making ranger less of a threat.

Condition survival variant? They already go full cleanse, what makes a difference if they add 1 more soft CC removal on long cool down?

Some of the “useless utilities” need rework, but this is not the thread to discuss about it. I’m just here to prepose a QoL change to ranger that can give ranger “choices”.
You can make another thread about these and I’m all for it.

Engineer and thief has so much choice that even a great skill like rocket boot doesn’t worth putting in their utility slot most of the time. For ranger, it is like picking a few less bad ones from all the bad ones. Everything is so reliant on the traits.

Anet with the fear of making profession too similar is full of traits/skills that are nearly the same but one being completely better, Dogged March compared to Geomancer’s Freedom, Signet of Air/Signet of Shadows. Funny thing is I think they would not have did a general reduction of the endurance recover if they had not at first normalize all the vigor on crit related traits and just left them different.

I’m stopping here, you are way too dense when it come to balance and to self centered on your build. It’s useless to try and argue with you since you don’t want to see why even 2 more condition cleansed on a 40 s CD would give to the ranger a huge advantage.

Dadnir.5038:

I’m stopping here, you are way too dense when it come to balance and to self centered on your build. It’s useless to try and argue with you since you don’t want to see why even 2 more condition cleansed on a 40 s CD would give to the ranger a huge advantage.

And all my comments are constructive, and I give a full list of reasoning.
If you back up, it doesn’t mean that I’m dense, it means that you don’t have sufficient reasoning. I’m a critical thinker, and if you want to persuade me, you need to give more sufficient and specific example. You didn’t give me any actual example, just keep on imagining it’d be OP, but doesn’t show how it’d be OP.

Also, I reject another guy’s idea in this thread to remove 2 conditions (he said ANY condition), because I can forsee it my be OP in a sense. I specifically stated that this skill should fulfill it’s function fully: to get ranger out of trouble. Currently it doesn’t do its job as well as many other classes’ skills because it is the only skill with similar function that doesn’t remove chill and cripple.

Aomine.5012:

So what build exactly in mind do you think it’d be overpowered on a 40 seconds CD soft CC removal?

Sotf variant? That build damage potential is at least 33% lower than the regular glass bow, making ranger less of a threat.

Condition survival variant? They already go full cleanse, what makes a difference if they add 1 more soft CC removal on long cool down?

Some of the “useless utilities” need rework, but this is not the thread to discuss about it. I’m just here to prepose a QoL change to ranger that can give ranger “choices”.
You can make another thread about these and I’m all for it.

Engineer and thief has so much choice that even a great skill like rocket boot doesn’t worth putting in their utility slot most of the time. For ranger, it is like picking a few less bad ones from all the bad ones. Everything is so reliant on the traits.

Your a glass ranger with (quiet passive play) signets and LB (max range)/GS, period. You could easily trait to get LR at least on a 32 sec CD. You could use S/D instead of GS to easily keep the range you need. Only two simple choices you don’t want to make.

I’m one of those " less of a threat" ranger, here is my build :

I lost some DPS, right. I sacrificed max range, right. What’s the balance ? I am perma swiftness, i have a lots of cleans (even an active clean on weapon swap), i can break immo, i have two break stun, + 3k armor, high stability uptime, high cripple and poison uptime, lots of avades and mostly a good amount of damage. I am a hard counter to zerker builds, no matter the class, i am a hard counter to (non cheesy) conditions builds, no matter the class.

Quoted from another tred :

Aomine.5012:

Condition necro, contrary to popular belief, are one of the biggest counters of power ranger. All they need to do is land one chill on me so I cant run, then they can safely chain CC me to death. Condition War and Zerk Mediation Guardian are also extremely tough match-up because they have infinite gap closer, lots of soft CC, and too many ways to negate my damage completely for quite awhile. (Guardian can blind, immob, block, invulnerable to waste my burst then burst me down, War can gap close me with 1-h sword, negate my CC with balance stance, and tank my damage very well) Thief can take advantage of stealth and easily gap close me and burst me down first, and spam dodges while dps me up front. Condition engineer has 1 reflect, 1~2 blocks to completely negate my burst, outrun me with rocket shoe and permanent swiftness, and can quickly melt me down with confusion and other dot. Those are all hard counter to power ranger, that I need to use my pet and positioning very effectively in order to beat them.

I have absolutlely no troubles with all those kind of classes/builds, especially not in a 1 vs 1 fight. I made CHOICES and built for it. I like all my “useless utilities”, I main ranger for two years and believe me, i am a kittened threat in solo and small scale roaming in WvW. There’s no raisonnable reason why you should have easy access to what you want without make true choices.

borya.2964:

Aomine.5012:

So what build exactly in mind do you think it’d be overpowered on a 40 seconds CD soft CC removal?

Sotf variant? That build damage potential is at least 33% lower than the regular glass bow, making ranger less of a threat.

Condition survival variant? They already go full cleanse, what makes a difference if they add 1 more soft CC removal on long cool down?

Some of the “useless utilities” need rework, but this is not the thread to discuss about it. I’m just here to prepose a QoL change to ranger that can give ranger “choices”.
You can make another thread about these and I’m all for it.

Engineer and thief has so much choice that even a great skill like rocket boot doesn’t worth putting in their utility slot most of the time. For ranger, it is like picking a few less bad ones from all the bad ones. Everything is so reliant on the traits.

Your a glass ranger with (quiet passive play) signets and LB (max range)/GS, period. You could easily trait to get LR at least on a 32 sec CD. You could use S/D instead of GS to easily keep the range you need. Only two simple choices you don’t want to make.

I’m one of those " less of a threat" ranger, here is my build :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaizOAC8iGs

I lost some DPS, right. I sacrificed max range, right. What’s the balance ? I am perma swiftness, i have a lots of cleans (even an active clean on weapon swap), i can break immo, i have two break stun, + 3k armor, high stability uptime, high cripple and poison uptime, lots of avades and mostly a good amount of damage. I am a hard counter to zerker builds, no matter the class, i am a hard counter to (non cheesy) conditions builds, no matter the class.

We can find a time to duel, I’ll use my engineer. (not turret)
Also, I believe Euro uses full glass in the final because he realizes he sacrifices way too much dps if spec defensively. The dps output will lose to a bursting thief or shatter mesmer if they trait like that. That’s why I said the threat level will be lower. One vs one may be stronger against condition class, but that’s about it.

[/quote]
Quoted from another tred :

Aomine.5012:

Condition necro, contrary to popular belief, are one of the biggest counters of power ranger. All they need to do is land one chill on me so I cant run, then they can safely chain CC me to death. Condition War and Zerk Mediation Guardian are also extremely tough match-up because they have infinite gap closer, lots of soft CC, and too many ways to negate my damage completely for quite awhile. (Guardian can blind, immob, block, invulnerable to waste my burst then burst me down, War can gap close me with 1-h sword, negate my CC with balance stance, and tank my damage very well) Thief can take advantage of stealth and easily gap close me and burst me down first, and spam dodges while dps me up front. Condition engineer has 1 reflect, 1~2 blocks to completely negate my burst, outrun me with rocket shoe and permanent swiftness, and can quickly melt me down with confusion and other dot. Those are all hard counter to power ranger, that I need to use my pet and positioning very effectively in order to beat them.

I have absolutlely no troubles with all those kind of classes/builds, especially not in a 1 vs 1 fight. I made CHOICES and built for it. I like all my “useless utilities”, I main ranger for two years and believe me, i am a kittened threat in solo and small scale roaming in WvW. There’s no raisonnable reason why you should have easy access to what you want without make true choices.

[/quote]

Totally off topic.

Those examples are when I find decent opponents. Not all of them are that strong. Those arguments are true, but can be overcome if played properly. Plus I don’t believe you win all duels if you roam in T1. Plus in T1 most of them roam in 3~5 , which you wouldn’t have chance to fight them anyway.

Also it is true that we lack choices in our “utility” itself. Our “survival skills” are not so survival without traits. Our trap need a full trait line for it to function, yet it’s still sub-par than most other condition specs. Our shout is not really shout, and mostly are selfish ones, or require another full traitline for it to work.

Sigh, can’t believe many fellow rangers will actually reject this type of small QoL change. If Anet post a new skill balance change saying they’d make LR similar to other classes’ escape skill and remove soft CC, I can’t imagine anyone will jump out and yell : “This is totally so OP!” They’ll think it’s ok and move on.

On both condi and power build I always use Lightning Reflexes no matter what. Yes it would be cool if it removed chill and cripple, but I’m doing quite fine with a 32s traited stun breaker that gives me plenty of vigor combined with Primal Reflexes trait. It’s a life saver if you want to get rid of immobilize or getting out of a fear chain from necros when you don’t want to pop your SoR immediatelly when fighting them.

ok firstly im going to inform you on the way LR does its actions./

First Stunbreaks+removes condis (if SOTF) >damage+evade so interrupts will not work on you.

the necro or mesmer will only interrupt you at the start of LR before the evades or the End after edaves .

so you have to make that choice , use it to evade/ stunbreak or Condi removal if you can get stunbreak + condi removal bonus , but doing so scarifices the evading part leaving you open to interrption as the target just has to wait till the evade sequence has ended, rather than you using the evade to avoid that interrupt.

a double edged sword , and needs knowledge of when to use.
it goes beyond 3 uses and as i say beyond it has combined effects depending on the situation that presents you.

e.g vs warroirs i’ll use it gap open and gain extra dodges.
vs necros i’ll use it to drop evade a timed attack + as a bonus drop condis off while damaging.

rather than thinking it does one of 3 choices .

it does 2 of 3 in a combination vs certain types of builds.

though all in all LR is great and fine as is, since chill+cripple are its counters and SOTF praticly removes those counters if you only have cripple+chill on you.

That’s the thing though Zenos, SOTF doesn’t remove the counters because the cleanse only activates at the end of the roll. You still have your distanced kitten but cripple / chill, even if the skill does in the end remove the condition.

It would be so easy if it would behave just like the 4th skill of the warrior’s banners… backwards… http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sprint

Ignoring cripple/chill would certainly be better than nothing. The concept of the skill itself is broken by cripple and chill (to open up a gap under direst). It would fix the core of the issue but I still think ranger would greatly benefit from an active soft cc clear.

Overall, cleanses in this game that are mobility specific (cripple/chill/immobilize) are treated differently than cleanses that clear damaging conditions. There’s a variety of traits that reduce them or clear them, even a weapon skill on warrior warhorn that cleanses them.

Clearing movement impairing conditions plus two with the investment of a grantmaster trait would not make LR too powerful. It’s not like LR would clear two extra conditions if there were no cripple or chill. Rarely when you use LR would you clear cripple, chill, immobilize, two conditions, break a stun and evade all at once. It’s more of a skill that can be used in a variety of situations.