Guild Wars 2

there is a reason why beastmaster rangers use AXE.

1. free chill
2. pet buff

Now learn to cover area with barrage and use that bleedsplosion elite and youl be fine :P especialy if you gunna use pet related ability in a build wich rely on your own weapon as a main source of dps.

SotW is nice now cuz when our pet dies and we’ve lost 40% of our damage, we can pop it and get some back. All works out in the end.

Prysin.8542:

Fast forward to todays ranger;
Glasscannon RF builds have EIGHT counters:
Reflect
Retalitation
Blocking
Evading + Dodging
Invulnerabilities
Line of Sight + other game bugs
Interrupts
Weakness (just watch how much damage ranger does when it cannot crit… basically LESS then 1/3rd of its normal damage)

Now, that is counting only HARD counters. Stuff that literally shuts down the ranger build.

If we are to draw comparisons
Old “OP” warrior needed 7 trait points (35) to be efficient, Ranger needs a minimum of 8 for Rapid Fire to even WORK.

That would be all.

I hate retaliation. On any ranger spec aside from maybe full melee, retaliation is the most annoying thing for a ranger to fight.

Guardians especially are a hard counter to rangers with all of their blinds, blocks, and teleports, its very hard to get a single hit in. At least on lb ranger. Sb against guards is terrible cuz they do more dmg to us than we do to them if we’re spamming sb 1 and they have retal up.

Since when does SoS grant “invincibility”?
You simply can’t take damage from attacks.
CC’s and conditions still apply. One well timed knockback from an enemy = signet wasted.
Also, you loose 180 toughness, while it’s in CD.

Mcrocha.3891:

Teach me how to chill on lb glass please without using sigils. Just use owl or alpine wolf right? Circular reasoning. And in no way is the cripple from barrage reliable or long for that matter. The only other thing you can do is slot frost or spike trap, but is the utility slot really worth that? Oh and ofc the cripple from sword set if you want to stay in melee, but good luck with that.

Not circular reasoning. Some pets are designed to work best filling certain roles. If you need to keep your enemy in place and don’t have the tools with your primary weapon or through traits you take the pets that can cover that gap. Take a drakehound for the ranged immobilize, then let it apply cripple to the stationary target as you drop Barrage to stack more cripple. Spider is useful for the same strategy.

Of course if you’re running a sniper ranger build your damage output is fine. Your pets are more about supporting you than the other way around, so you’ll likely take the wolf. AoE fear can be a life saver, and canines will use their knockdowns as their opening move when you swap them in combat, so if you time it with with Point Blank Shot you can keep the enemy down for a fairly lengthy stretch of time.

Your pet is also your best tool at dealing with stubborn opponents who hide behind cover and try and bait you to come closer. The only times I’ve legitimately lost to a longbow ranger was because they used their pet brilliantly.

I won’t disagree that pets need some more love, but I feel we do have the tools to set them up to hit, which is probably how it should be to be honest. Though I think Anet should stop looking at them as a “part of our DPS” and more as “Extra damage they can get if they can control and predict the enemy’s moves.” Which does seem to be the direction they are going with the recent buffs. I doubt anyone would argue the longbow now does especially low damage for a ranged weapon.

The part that was circular reasoning was that it was said that if your pet can’t reliably hit the enemy then just use chill and cripple so they can stay on them. The only way to apply chill in a Lb glass build as I said w/o traps or sigils would be to get it through owl or alpine wolf f2. It’s circular to argue that in order to have your pets hit more reliably they have to hit their f2.

I run my power builds with 80% condition duration. Muddy Terrain and Barrage end up being overkill in many fights because of the lengthy cripple durations. Pets are then able to hit moving targets just fine.

((Although its a nice bonus, I don’t run 80% condition duration for that. I got it for 18s of Vulnerability from Rapid Fire and 9s vulnerability from opening strike. Most players are, kind of dumb, when it comes to that condition and its easy to exploit because of that.))

Mcrocha.3891:

kyubi.3620:

then learn to freeze slow and cripple? I dont have problem having my pet hit reliably and unless your cripple my pet (god how naughty are you doing that to my lovely fern hound! You puppy killer!) your likely gunna get chewed a lot of your health

Teach me how to chill on lb glass please without using sigils. Just use owl or alpine wolf right? Circular reasoning. And in no way is the cripple from barrage reliable or long for that matter. The only other thing you can do is slot frost or spike trap, but is the utility slot really worth that? Oh and ofc the cripple from sword set if you want to stay in melee, but good luck with that.

This strikes me as the same reasoning behind the people wanting to nerf RF because it messes up their “I can handle cc, melee and condition damage” builds. They want to be able to handle everything without compromise, and ranged burst forces them to compromise something.

If you want effective damage from your pets, you’ll need to compromise something else. Whether it be a sub-par utility skill (don’t forget muddy terrain), unreliable barrage, or swapping to a different weapon set to apply chill/cripple. You can’t put all the best things on a single weapon. That would be unbalanced. The game intentionally forces you to compromise something – you’re choosing to compromise pet damage.

Every weapon has something that helps the pet close in.

Longbow- swiftness on 3, KD on 4 and cripple on 5
GS-cripple on 4 and stun on 5
Sword-auto attack cripple
Axe-chill on 3
SB-cripple on 4 and stun on 5
dagger-cripple on 5
Warhorn-swiftness on 5

Also against very evasive classes like mesmers or thieves, better use spiders

My problem isn’t not being able to CC, or my pet being too slow. My problem is that WvW is littered with random bumps that my pets will not run over. When I fight a BM ranger I exploit the crap out of the fact that I can just move a couple steps back and forth and their pet can’t hit me because it is taking the scenic tour to get to me instead of going over a 6 inch ledge.

Solandri.9640:

Mcrocha.3891:

kyubi.3620:

then learn to freeze slow and cripple? I dont have problem having my pet hit reliably and unless your cripple my pet (god how naughty are you doing that to my lovely fern hound! You puppy killer!) your likely gunna get chewed a lot of your health

Teach me how to chill on lb glass please without using sigils. Just use owl or alpine wolf right? Circular reasoning. And in no way is the cripple from barrage reliable or long for that matter. The only other thing you can do is slot frost or spike trap, but is the utility slot really worth that? Oh and ofc the cripple from sword set if you want to stay in melee, but good luck with that.

This strikes me as the same reasoning behind the people wanting to nerf RF because it messes up their “I can handle cc, melee and condition damage” builds. They want to be able to handle everything without compromise, and ranged burst forces them to compromise something.

If you want effective damage from your pets, you’ll need to compromise something else. Whether it be a sub-par utility skill (don’t forget muddy terrain), unreliable barrage, or swapping to a different weapon set to apply chill/cripple. You can’t put all the best things on a single weapon. That would be unbalanced. The game intentionally forces you to compromise something – you’re choosing to compromise pet damage.

I agree that one has to give up things to get cc or have reliable pet damage, but this thread is about rapid fire and thus inherently about lb glass because qq rangers burst now qq. In general, the build will give up condi removal for consistent zerk damage from range and burst potential. However, why should the ranger be kitten because of a class mechanic where damage is split and we have to rely on ai for a chunk of our overall damage potential. What other zerk class gives up damage to do damage? The build would be even more effective if damage wasn’t split between the ranger and pet. Having to rely on AI for damage is dumb; for cc and support? I’m all for it, but for damage nah.

My gripe isn’t that I don’t have to compromise survivability or cc or condi removal or w/e for damage, its that I have to give up on my character damage in order for part of my pet damage to maybe work and be reliable, causing my overall damage to most likely be lower because all in all we’re still counting on AI.

As much as I defend the longbow, I’m pretty confident in saying it WOULD be overpowered if it got a 30% damage boost. Longbow does good damage and can be built to be solid long ranged burst. It already has higher sustain damage than the most similar weapon, the warrior rifle, and it’s burst hits harder than the rifle’s burst. Damage wise, the longbow is fine without the pet’s damage.

Which is why I feel like Anet might be shifting priorities on rangers. With the longbow the damage is definitely there. The pet hitting is really just more like bonus damage with that set up, and it’s primary role is to add extra control and set the opponent up for the ranger’s own damage.

Ehecatl.9172:

As much as I defend the longbow, I’m pretty confident in saying it WOULD be overpowered if it got a 30% damage boost. Longbow does good damage and can be built to be solid long ranged burst. It already has higher sustain damage than the most similar weapon, the warrior rifle, and it’s burst hits harder than the rifle’s burst. Damage wise, the longbow is fine without the pet’s damage.

Which is why I feel like Anet might be shifting priorities on rangers. With the longbow the damage is definitely there. The pet hitting is really just more like bonus damage with that set up, and it’s primary role is to add extra control and set the opponent up for the ranger’s own damage.

I’m just pointing out that I think that while comparable, it’s a false statement that the rifle is the most comparable weapon.

In actuality, the most similar weapon is the mesmer greatsword as far as total overall function, purpose, and even damage output is concerned. You will find a very, very similar ranged sustain damage capability, as well as burst capabilities.

I’m not trying to start some big to do or anything, I’m just trying to point on that the reason there might seem to be some disparity between the Longbow and the warrior rifle is because outside of Volley and Vulnerability, the weapons share almost nothing in common.

Perhaps not the MOST comparable. I haven’t a lot of experience with the greatsword to compare. But both the longbow and the rifle are primarily long range, single target damage weapons, and the ranger’s longbow has better damage at it’s maximum range despite us having a “-30% damage penalty” on all our skills.

The longbow has good damage on it’s own, you don’t really NEED the pet to hit reliably. In that build the pet is still extremely important, just not for damage, which was my point.

Ehecatl.9172:

Perhaps not the MOST comparable. I haven’t a lot of experience with the greatsword to compare. But both the longbow and the rifle are primarily long range, single target damage weapons, and the ranger’s longbow has better damage at it’s maximum range despite us having a “-30% damage penalty” on all our skills.

The longbow has good damage on it’s own, you don’t really NEED the pet to hit reliably. In that build the pet is still extremely important, just not for damage, which was my point.

Fair enough, and agreed on the point being made

Sorry for nitpicking details and I do personally appreciate the clarity.

Klonko.8341:

What is not fine in the other hand, is the signet of stone and of the wild. Giving 6 sec to a class that can go brainless and down you in those 6 sec is the real culprit. Also the signet of the wild should be “shave” to a lesser amount than 25% like 5-10%.

You’re Wrong.

Warriors have 3 sources of Invulnerability, all significatnly outlasting Ranger.

Guardians have 2 sources on MUCH shorter cooldowns.

Engi’s have 2 sources of invuln + Invis.

Ele’s.. yes, again.

This is a L2P issue.

Chokolata.1870:

Every weapon has something that helps the pet close in.

Longbow- swiftness on 3, KD on 4 and cripple on 5
GS-cripple on 4 and stun on 5
Sword-auto attack cripple
Axe-chill on 3
SB-cripple on 4 and stun on 5
dagger-cripple on 5
Warhorn-swiftness on 5

Also against very evasive classes like mesmers or thieves, better use spiders

Shhh… Don’t tell them THAT!

There’s nothing wrong with signets. They have remained the same since almost release (they had their cooldowns rightfully lowered a few months afterwards).

The only problem, if there even is a problem, is rapid fire.

Everything else is just fine.

Atherakhia.4086:

Klonko.8341:

Chrispy.5641:

Yes on the Signet of the Wild change because giving a straight 25% buff to damage for 8 seconds allows it to be abused. The fact that its on a 60 second cool down is irrelevant. (My Suggestion for the change would be for the Skill to last 10 seconds, but drop the damage increase to 10%. gives us more stability, which we need, and drops the damage increase.)

No on Signet of Stone. Plenty of other professions have skills that grant invulnerability, and can deal just as much damage as Rapid Fire in the same time, so why not Ranger?

Dont forget we get alot of defense other than this precise signet, like protection on dodge roll. I’m for a signet of stone nerf because invulnerability without drawback. For invulnerability I would be for the fact that someone use protect me rather than signet of stone because it has a drawback.

Losing 180 toughness for 80 seconds isn’t enough of a drawback?

I’m just not understanding the point you’re attempting to make by saying we have access to protection. Are you attempting to say Warriors don’t have it so they need Endure Pain? Warriors also regen 450hp/s from Sig+AH and have significantly better condi management.

Simple fact of the matter is that the survivability options available to the class before the patch weren’t enough. We’ve seen no meta shift in WvW or PvP to suggest Rangers are doing much better now either.

It’s far too early to worry about Ranger nerfs when we’re not even sure if the buffs were enough to make a difference.

warrior’s have better condi management…lol……sure m8, sure…only when locked in full support build on any other roam/duel build the ranger condi management is highly superior to warrior…get real please…signet of stone needs to last 3 seconds and 4 seconds top when traited

For the 1000th time: The problem isnt rapid fire nor utilities itself. It is the longbow in the whole picture that has a low skill level to be effectice. I suggestion adding some kind of movement skill or a knockdown instead of knockback so the ranger actually has to play well in positioning for example.

Range damage can be reflected. Melee can not. Melee can hit stealth targets. For the most part ranger bows can’t (except channeling before the stealth and barrage).

The ranger is using positioning to get the drop on you 80% of the time. What one should be doing is paying attention to their surrondings its not like we are thieve that can be see and hit for 14k in a matter of seconds before you can react because your either dazed or immobilized.

it comes down to two things.
1) build choices

range damage can be reflected. If RF is such a pain for you then defend against it.
If its the knock back that gets you then defend against it blind, block, reflect, dodge or use stability. The ultimate defense against rapid fire is don’t be glassy stack toughness.

2) l2p issue

You really don’t know how to build to minimize the effects of other players. Then heed the advice given in this thread and others.

Killing is easy. Staying alive is the trick. Two people who don’t have an ounce of survivability will come down to who has the most damage. This is the only time range is a factor so I suggest learning how to stay alive.

It is why zerker ranger are not played in top tier games. Anyone with any skill will avoid the initial burst and knock back then close in and destroy the ranger before he himself is in any real danger.

While I prefer shortbow on my Ranger, understanding how to fight longbow and SoS is just part of knowing the game.

Rapid fire it very predictable in its use and very avoidable. Its a ranger with along bow. It’s going ot happen. Be aware of cover, know that you’re gonna have a steady stream of shots coming in and husband your dodges for when they will mean the most.

Similarly when you see SoS triggered, KNOW WHAT IT IS YOU ARE SEEING and act accordingly. Hold you big hits if you are direct damage, keep up the conditions if you aren’t and know you need to outlast them a few seconds. use your stuns – pass the time playing cards behind a rock. whatever. Not that difficult to manage and again wildly predictable on any Ranger PvP build.

Ugh..what’s the fuss about? LB ranger is never really a problem to me unless, they are on higher ground than I am ( walls/hills), other than that they are easy prey to my traps. I still find condi bunker Rangers tougher to deal with.

The V.8759:

For the 1000th time: The problem isnt rapid fire nor utilities itself. It is the longbow in the whole picture that has a low skill level to be effectice.

So you want us to assemble or fold a protein before we press our key bind? I mean on a skill level from 1 to 10 that should meet your requirement, yes? Or maybe something a little more mundane by having us solve a rubik’s cube before we press our key bind for rapid fire?

We are playing a video game to escape reality. Not solve world hunger or cancer. But since you went there maybe you could see the other side of it by agreeing that dodge and mitigation is also skill. Using keybinds is skill. Situation awareness is skill.

I suggestion adding some kind of movement skill or a knockdown instead of knockback so the ranger actually has to play well in positioning for example.

We have a position weapon, it is called short bow. Have you actually played a ranger by any chance?

Crapgame.6519:

…Or maybe something a little more mundane by having us solve a rubik’s cube before we press our key bind for rapid fire?…

Hahahah

The V.8759:

For the 1000th time: The problem isnt rapid fire nor utilities itself. It is the longbow in the whole picture that has a low skill level to be effectice. I suggestion adding some kind of movement skill or a knockdown instead of knockback so the ranger actually has to play well in positioning for example.

Are you trying to argue a longbow ranger doesn’t have to worry about his positioning when fighting other players?!

If you really believe that let’s have a duel where you are on a longbow ranger and I will play whatever class you want me to, but we have to begin the duel in melee range of each other. Since rangers don’t have to worry about positioning you should be able to press 2 and get an easy win right?