Guild Wars 2

Know how awful our pets are sometimes at doing what we want?

Well I have a new level 80 toon i’ve been playing.

My Necromancer….and I’ve made a Minion Mancer of all things.

thought i’d share a short movie of what its like playing this spec in PvP

My Channel also has another movie as well called Scarecrow Volume 1, Trust me when I say we’re not alone is moronic Pets..

I’m not defending the poor AI, because it is clearly poor but just out of curiosity how much damage does the Necro minions account for and how much is it meant to do?

Seems most just use them as a clusterkitten of minions to hide behind while dotting and fearing their target to me also.

That Manekk, is hard to nail down, since the minion is worse than the pet. I have a necromancer I’m building up, and the minor trait for the toughness line creates a minion whenever you kill something, with a cooldown of about 30 seconds on it. The minion does about the same damage as a necromancer using Staff #1, but it’s so stupid that it rarely hits or anything like that, and loses a tenth of its health every second, meaning it’s usually dead before it does any damage.

Someone tested it and I believe its 1.2k DPS or so from the pets.

You also don’t use them to hide behind, It’d be like going all Spirits on your ranger to “hide” behind things… Only you invested Multiple points into making them good.

a Minion Mancer is basically giving up a lot of utility and other abilities for something that doesn’t actually work.

when minions work right, which they do most of the time (most = at least 51%) they hit pretty hard. so hard infact that the necro could focus solely on decoying the target while the real damage comes from the minions.
Might not kill as fast as some other classes, but fast enough thats its “viable”.
There are other problems too, like not healing out of combat combined with a cooldown after they do die, makes things rather slow.

Most of the time, Minion’s don’t work right…Most fights consists of maybe 1 or 2 of them actually hitting, the other 2 or 3 not hitting and just standing there.

That is a serious problem.

Tbh I wouldn’t expect any huge AI improvements soon. AI programming is one of the most difficult parts when it comes to any kind of programming. It will take a lot of time to improve the current situation.

Xsorus.2507:

Someone tested it and I believe its 1.2k DPS or so from the pets.

You also don’t use them to hide behind, It’d be like going all Spirits on your ranger to “hide” behind things… Only you invested Multiple points into making them good.

a Minion Mancer is basically giving up a lot of utility and other abilities for something that doesn’t actually work.

Alright so it’s a substantial amount of damage anyway, I only just made one a few days ago I haven’t a clue what the minions did.

As for the hiding well might not be intentional but it actually works out that way sometimes atleast it takes a split second extra to find him, it can get pretty confusing if you lose your target when there are a few guys fighting 25 minions don’t make it better

Blackhat.4016:

Tbh I wouldn’t expect any huge AI improvements soon. AI programming is one of the most difficult parts when it comes to any kind of programming. It will take a lot of time to improve the current situation.

Yet this is the worst AI of any game when it comes to pets. Even games released in the mid 90s had better AI. There is no legit excuse for this, in 2013. Especially considering they’ve got another game under their belt.

Manekk.6981:

Xsorus.2507:

Someone tested it and I believe its 1.2k DPS or so from the pets.

You also don’t use them to hide behind, It’d be like going all Spirits on your ranger to “hide” behind things… Only you invested Multiple points into making them good.

a Minion Mancer is basically giving up a lot of utility and other abilities for something that doesn’t actually work.

Alright so it’s a substantial amount of damage anyway, I only just made one a few days ago I haven’t a clue what the minions did.

As for the hiding well might not be intentional but it actually works out that way sometimes atleast it takes a split second extra to find him, it can get pretty confusing if you lose your target when there are a few guys fighting 25 minions don’t make it better

O.O

The minions look absolutely nothing like the Necromancer. How in the world are you confused?

jkctmc.8754:

Manekk.6981:

Xsorus.2507:

Someone tested it and I believe its 1.2k DPS or so from the pets.

You also don’t use them to hide behind, It’d be like going all Spirits on your ranger to “hide” behind things… Only you invested Multiple points into making them good.

a Minion Mancer is basically giving up a lot of utility and other abilities for something that doesn’t actually work.

Alright so it’s a substantial amount of damage anyway, I only just made one a few days ago I haven’t a clue what the minions did.

As for the hiding well might not be intentional but it actually works out that way sometimes atleast it takes a split second extra to find him, it can get pretty confusing if you lose your target when there are a few guys fighting 25 minions don’t make it better

O.O

The minions look absolutely nothing like the Necromancer. How in the world are you confused?

I’m not saying it like it is a problem or that I can be looking straight at them and not decide who is what you’re taking it the wrong way if that’s what you think I’m saying just that you can’t even see a kittenty little asura behind the minions sometimes, no offence to the rabbit people

jkctmc.8754:

Blackhat.4016:

Tbh I wouldn’t expect any huge AI improvements soon. AI programming is one of the most difficult parts when it comes to any kind of programming. It will take a lot of time to improve the current situation.

Yet this is the worst AI of any game when it comes to pets. Even games released in the mid 90s had better AI. There is no legit excuse for this, in 2013. Especially considering they’ve got another game under their belt.

Minion Masters were unstoppable engines of destruction in GW1. They nerfed them so they couldn’t run with a swarm of 30+ minions and they still made out pretty well and even more so when you could make an AI minion master who could micromanage the skills flawlessly.

Fast forward 6 years or so and I guess they figured that was just too much fun and shouldn’t be allowed anymore. Kind of like how pets in GW1 where made of kittening diamond if speced for it and here they are made of egg shells and tissue paper.

The worst part is that the AI of necro minions in Gw1 had pretty much no problem doing what they needed to do. Granted, you couldn’t move and perform actions at the same time (stances excluded) but it I can’t see how they kittened this up so bad.

There is one type of AI that works great in GW2.
If only our pets/minions AI are like Risens in Cursed Shore.
But those are Zhaitan’s Pets/Minions not ours lol!

edit: Unlike my Owl that keep flipping its wings instead of attacking my target after hitting F1 multiple times in WvW zergs couple of times.

Actualy, Guardian’s spirit weapons work much better than our pet’s.
Can’t they use that until its not worked out properly?

I think the thing with minions is the fact that it is a build that really has no gear dependency to reach it’s basic functionality, similar in fact to the ranger pets, but with less focus placed on them through the traits. So the necromancer can be minion focused, but has numerous builds that are complete functional without consorting with pesky artificial intelligence of questionable coding.

You mean the Necromancer’s minions are WORSE than the pets.

Expect a nerf for the pets in the next patch then.

yeah my main was a necromancer in GW1 so I tried leveling a minion master in GW2 and gave up at lvl 30. The minion AI is simply atrocious. While I would expect them to be brainless lumps of undead flesh and dumber than living animals, their AI is just garbage at times. I cant count how many times I noticed them sitting around doing nothing.

I really feel bad for necromancers but then again minions are an optional mechanic for them since they are essentially utility skills and not equipping them frees up utility slots that you can use in other ways. Minion master is just a build for necromancers and you can ignore minions entirely by simply not equipping them. This is not the case for rangers and their pets.

Ah, I think you need some practice as necro, Xsorsus, to be totally honest. If you’re running minions, the way they are, you can’t switch targets like that.

Chopps i’ve read that before, It’s not true.

Attacking with your auto attack x2 will not make your pets attack 100% of the time..

jkctmc.8754:

Blackhat.4016:

Tbh I wouldn’t expect any huge AI improvements soon. AI programming is one of the most difficult parts when it comes to any kind of programming. It will take a lot of time to improve the current situation.

Yet this is the worst AI of any game when it comes to pets. Even games released in the mid 90s had better AI. There is no legit excuse for this, in 2013. Especially considering they’ve got another game under their belt.

Wrong, games in the early 90’s had simple AI’s that tell the creature attack or stay. Since the games were mostly based on hack and slash over and over with no real effects to take into consideration creating the AI for said creatures required close to no programming. If you take mid age games like WoW you will notice that all they did was make the pet pretty much a second character thus over powering the pet using bow using class.

Lyonell.1753:

jkctmc.8754:

Blackhat.4016:

Tbh I wouldn’t expect any huge AI improvements soon. AI programming is one of the most difficult parts when it comes to any kind of programming. It will take a lot of time to improve the current situation.

Yet this is the worst AI of any game when it comes to pets. Even games released in the mid 90s had better AI. There is no legit excuse for this, in 2013. Especially considering they’ve got another game under their belt.

Wrong, games in the early 90’s had simple AI’s that tell the creature attack or stay. Since the games were mostly based on hack and slash over and over with no real effects to take into consideration creating the AI for said creatures required close to no programming. If you take mid age games like WoW you will notice that all they did was make the pet pretty much a second character thus over powering the pet using bow using class.

Minions do not even have an attack, stay, let alone the ability to attack most of the time. The Ranger pets are generally slow, stop to use an attack, rooting them in place, or generally act buggy.

I would love to have the old AI at least, for all pets in this game.

The AI from GW1 was, in every possible aspect, better than GW2. I have no clue why they changed it, but they should (if possible) recycle the code from GW1.

Pets hit, pretty much anything you aimed at, they would get to and connect. Minions would hit, almost without fail.

I would sacrifice a goat on Anet’s front lawn to get the flag system and AI from GW1 for this game. Heck, I’d go as high as two goats and a bull.

Minions are awful, coming from ranger pets. Conditionmancer on the other hand is awesome, I suggest you try it. Epidemic does insane AoE damage and you can melt down anything that throws conditions at you with all that condition transfer. Necro is tons of fun.

stale.9785:

The AI from GW1 was, in every possible aspect, better than GW2. I have no clue why they changed it, but they should (if possible) recycle the code from GW1.

Pets hit, pretty much anything you aimed at, they would get to and connect. Minions would hit, almost without fail.

I would sacrifice a goat on Anet’s front lawn to get the flag system and AI from GW1 for this game. Heck, I’d go as high as two goats and a bull.

I don’t understand how pets are worse in GW2, than they were in GW1.

jkctmc.8754:

stale.9785:

The AI from GW1 was, in every possible aspect, better than GW2. I have no clue why they changed it, but they should (if possible) recycle the code from GW1.

Pets hit, pretty much anything you aimed at, they would get to and connect. Minions would hit, almost without fail.

I would sacrifice a goat on Anet’s front lawn to get the flag system and AI from GW1 for this game. Heck, I’d go as high as two goats and a bull.

I don’t understand how pets are worse in GW2, than they were in GW1.

They aren’t… In GW1 pets are notorious for closing the gap and just standing there for like 10 seconds going, “Herpadurp what was I supposed to be doing again?” Granted minion AI was better (from my experience) in GW1 and pets could attack while moving (when they decided to actually work while moving).

Durzlla.6295:

jkctmc.8754:

stale.9785:

The AI from GW1 was, in every possible aspect, better than GW2. I have no clue why they changed it, but they should (if possible) recycle the code from GW1.

Pets hit, pretty much anything you aimed at, they would get to and connect. Minions would hit, almost without fail.

I would sacrifice a goat on Anet’s front lawn to get the flag system and AI from GW1 for this game. Heck, I’d go as high as two goats and a bull.

I don’t understand how pets are worse in GW2, than they were in GW1.

They aren’t… In GW1 pets are notorious for closing the gap and just standing there for like 10 seconds going, “Herpadurp what was I supposed to be doing again?” Granted minion AI was better (from my experience) in GW1 and pets could attack while moving (when they decided to actually work while moving).

I mained a ranger in GW1, and believe me, pets were far more reliable. Granted, in pvp they were insta gibbed, same as now – but for general PvE, the pet was a godsend. Pathing wasn’t an issue, and if you actually called the target, the pet never failed to attack it.

Minions were the same – if you made the effort to call the target, you didn’t have a group of minions milling about looking at the sky – they fell upon your target in a group of undead damage.

stale.9785:

Durzlla.6295:

jkctmc.8754:

stale.9785:

The AI from GW1 was, in every possible aspect, better than GW2. I have no clue why they changed it, but they should (if possible) recycle the code from GW1.

Pets hit, pretty much anything you aimed at, they would get to and connect. Minions would hit, almost without fail.

I would sacrifice a goat on Anet’s front lawn to get the flag system and AI from GW1 for this game. Heck, I’d go as high as two goats and a bull.

I don’t understand how pets are worse in GW2, than they were in GW1.

They aren’t… In GW1 pets are notorious for closing the gap and just standing there for like 10 seconds going, “Herpadurp what was I supposed to be doing again?” Granted minion AI was better (from my experience) in GW1 and pets could attack while moving (when they decided to actually work while moving).

I mained a ranger in GW1, and believe me, pets were far more reliable. Granted, in pvp they were insta gibbed, same as now – but for general PvE, the pet was a godsend. Pathing wasn’t an issue, and if you actually called the target, the pet never failed to attack it.

Minions were the same – if you made the effort to call the target, you didn’t have a group of minions milling about looking at the sky – they fell upon your target in a group of undead damage.

Huh did not know they did that when called… I need to go do that because that was literally my only gripe with my pet.

And pets only exploded in PvP because people focus fired them xD, in Gw2 no one even pays attention to the pet and just try to let the AoE and not as good pathing kill em.

PS: I miss GW1 pathing, granted it was easier for them to do because there was no jumping, but still.

To bad our Pets don’t work like Companions in SWTOR

@OP:

It could be worse, but Necromancer has it’s own worries. Do not try to distract us from our own by showing us the suffering they endure, suffering many of us have endured ourselves for trying ranger, finding it wanting, and then making the mistake of trying to make an alt that isn’t a highborne, pampered profession such as warrior or thief or in some eyes guardian.

Don’t mistake this for apathy. I feel for Necromancers, I really do, but if we slide into a state of “Oh, it could be worse!” and forget about our own plight, Anet will never get the message that we’re trying to send.

Given I have theories about them never getting the message since seven months have passed, but you get the idea.

Xsorus.2507:

To bad our Pets don’t work like Companions in SWTOR

I hated my companions… “Hey let me just tow cable that melee guy you’re kiting to us!”

I truly feel sorry for the Minion Masters coming from GW1 expecting a fun experience. At least your minions are not your inherent class mechanic like our brain-dead pets are.

Durzlla.6295:

Xsorus.2507:

To bad our Pets don’t work like Companions in SWTOR

I hated my companions… “Hey let me just tow cable that melee guy you’re kiting to us!”

“Oh, so you’re trying to be stealthy? M4-1X ATTACKS NEARBY ENEMY FOR DEMOCRACY ON THAT PART OF THE MISSION YOU HAVE TO SNEAK BY!”

I feel like, while this is true for necromancers, it isn’t their class mechanic.

A more suitable equivalent would be Ranger spirits to Necro minions. You can invest a lot of traits that overall don’t account for much, and in the end, there are just better slot options.

But a find that a class mechanic, being the defining mechanism in which a class is based upon, should be polished as efficiently as possible, before the game is even sold. It would literally take 1 minute of watching a pet try to attack something moving and then watching them try to activate their F2 to notice that it isn’t optimal.

And apparently our class wasn’t worth that 1 minute of time before the game was released, and that is the part that’s really poor on ANets part.

The Spiral King.2483:

I truly feel sorry for the Minion Masters coming from GW1 expecting a fun experience. At least your minions are not your inherent class mechanic like our brain-dead pets are.

Should of had Mako ;o)

Durzlla.6295:

Xsorus.2507:

To bad our Pets don’t work like Companions in SWTOR

I hated my companions… “Hey let me just tow cable that melee guy you’re kiting to us!”

I loved ’em, Khem Val was bad kitten.

jcbroe.4329:

I feel like, while this is true for necromancers, it isn’t their class mechanic.

A more suitable equivalent would be Ranger spirits to Necro minions. You can invest a lot of traits that overall don’t account for much, and in the end, there are just better slot options.

But a find that a class mechanic, being the defining mechanism in which a class is based upon, should be polished as efficiently as possible, before the game is even sold. It would literally take 1 minute of watching a pet try to attack something moving and then watching them try to activate their F2 to notice that it isn’t optimal.

And apparently our class wasn’t worth that 1 minute of time before the game was released, and that is the part that’s really poor on ANets part.

That’s not true at all. They gave us a firm solid look in the BWEs. And then they decided to turn the Greatsword into a foam noodle. I miss my BWE GS. Even now the auto hits like a noodle, the maul update was nice, but why aren’t we allowed to have powerful skills like, oh say, the entire Guardian and Warrior GS bars.

The Spiral King.2483:

jcbroe.4329:

I feel like, while this is true for necromancers, it isn’t their class mechanic.

A more suitable equivalent would be Ranger spirits to Necro minions. You can invest a lot of traits that overall don’t account for much, and in the end, there are just better slot options.

But a find that a class mechanic, being the defining mechanism in which a class is based upon, should be polished as efficiently as possible, before the game is even sold. It would literally take 1 minute of watching a pet try to attack something moving and then watching them try to activate their F2 to notice that it isn’t optimal.

And apparently our class wasn’t worth that 1 minute of time before the game was released, and that is the part that’s really poor on ANets part.

That’s not true at all. They gave us a firm solid look in the BWEs. And then they decided to turn the Greatsword into a foam noodle. I miss my BWE GS. Even now the auto hits like a noodle, the maul update was nice, but why aren’t we allowed to have powerful skills like, oh say, the entire Guardian and Warrior GS bars.

But in the BWEs, as you’re pointing out, the pet didn’t feel as though it carried so much of the rangers direct damage (because it didn’t), so it was made into an issue when damage for rangers started getting hit.

jcbroe.4329:

The Spiral King.2483:

jcbroe.4329:

I feel like, while this is true for necromancers, it isn’t their class mechanic.

A more suitable equivalent would be Ranger spirits to Necro minions. You can invest a lot of traits that overall don’t account for much, and in the end, there are just better slot options.

But a find that a class mechanic, being the defining mechanism in which a class is based upon, should be polished as efficiently as possible, before the game is even sold. It would literally take 1 minute of watching a pet try to attack something moving and then watching them try to activate their F2 to notice that it isn’t optimal.

And apparently our class wasn’t worth that 1 minute of time before the game was released, and that is the part that’s really poor on ANets part.

That’s not true at all. They gave us a firm solid look in the BWEs. And then they decided to turn the Greatsword into a foam noodle. I miss my BWE GS. Even now the auto hits like a noodle, the maul update was nice, but why aren’t we allowed to have powerful skills like, oh say, the entire Guardian and Warrior GS bars.

But in the BWEs, as you’re pointing out, the pet didn’t feel as though it carried so much of the rangers direct damage (because it didn’t), so it was made into an issue when damage for rangers started getting hit.

Exactly. Everyone in this forum has known the issue since release, trusting an ai with a large chunk of our damage will always leave us weaker. The only way to fix this would be to make the pet so powerful that the inherent weaknesses of a kittenty ai are overshadowed. And then it would just be OP and quite frankly not fun at all.

Xsorus.2507:

To bad our Pets don’t work like Companions in SWTOR

I’d be happy if my pet was just on the target. Most of the time he’s running back and forth, trying to catch up because A) his abilities root him in place while the enemy moves, and B) his pathing doesn’t update fast enough, so he often over or under shoots his destination, forcing him to change directions yet again.

My WoW hunter and SWTOR companions never had this issue. They got to the target like they were told and stayed on it. They navigated obstacles appropriately and they didn’t have to freakin’ stand still just to use “claw”. I don’t know what the designer who invented ranger pets was thinking, but he needs to never be hired in the video game industry again, ever.

The Spiral King.2483:

jcbroe.4329:

The Spiral King.2483:

jcbroe.4329:

I feel like, while this is true for necromancers, it isn’t their class mechanic.

A more suitable equivalent would be Ranger spirits to Necro minions. You can invest a lot of traits that overall don’t account for much, and in the end, there are just better slot options.

But a find that a class mechanic, being the defining mechanism in which a class is based upon, should be polished as efficiently as possible, before the game is even sold. It would literally take 1 minute of watching a pet try to attack something moving and then watching them try to activate their F2 to notice that it isn’t optimal.

And apparently our class wasn’t worth that 1 minute of time before the game was released, and that is the part that’s really poor on ANets part.

That’s not true at all. They gave us a firm solid look in the BWEs. And then they decided to turn the Greatsword into a foam noodle. I miss my BWE GS. Even now the auto hits like a noodle, the maul update was nice, but why aren’t we allowed to have powerful skills like, oh say, the entire Guardian and Warrior GS bars.

But in the BWEs, as you’re pointing out, the pet didn’t feel as though it carried so much of the rangers direct damage (because it didn’t), so it was made into an issue when damage for rangers started getting hit.

Exactly. Everyone in this forum has known the issue since release, trusting an ai with a large chunk of our damage will always leave us weaker. The only way to fix this would be to make the pet so powerful that the inherent weaknesses of a kittenty ai are overshadowed. And then it would just be OP and quite frankly not fun at all.

OR reduce pets damage and make them land attacks more reliably on moving opponents (kind of like what they attempted and semi-succeeded at) in guild wars 1, so they are more of a constant pressure mechanic with a unique F2 feature than they are such a large portion of damage.

The inability to attack on the move is a huge hindrance.

I personally would be fine with pets damage output off of the no cooldown attack they have be ~300, then next lowest ~500, then ~700, with no ability to crit whatsoever, and more interesting/powerful F2 abilities for them (with appropriate recharges). This would be in exchange for pets reliably being able to hit moving foes and move while attacking, and if necessary, making a trait necessary for them to have a movement speed advantage to keep pace with a player (so at default, they would hit moving people reliably at the cost of an aftercast, and they would move slowly enough that it would take them a little to catch back up and hit again untraited).

So actually, there are more ways to fix it than one.