Guild Wars 2

Rangers are a pretty great class when it comes to its weapon attacks, but I find that our utility abilities are lacking in quality compared to other professions. Lets talk utilities:

Signets:

Our signets are overall pretty poor compared to other profession’s signets. The passive effects are lacking (stone only gives 35 toughness, hunt’s 10% run speed is barely noticeable, especially so in combat. Doesn’t seem to stack with swiftness) Renwal and Wild aren’t too bad though under certain conditions.

The active abilities are mainly the problem. They only affect your pet unless you go deep into Marksmanship for Signet of the Beastmaster. They have very long cooldowns as well at up to 2 minutes.

Compare them to their guardian and warrior counterparts and there is no question that we received the short end of the stick.

Please consider revising the active effects of our signets and reducing the cooldown. Make them affect us as well. Not just our pet without heavy traiting.

Spirits:

They used to be awesome but were nerfed not long ago. The main problem is their health pools are entirely too low and they will die within seconds in any kind of group fight even when traited. They require heavy traiting to be effective with the trait that allows them to follow you only available at the end of the Nature Magic line. You’re not promoting build diversity when you pigeon hole rangers into using required traits for utilities to be worth using.

Shouts:

I don’t know what went wrong here. With how long they were delayed in beta, I’m guessing you ran out of ideas on what to do with them and just put in what you had. Protect Me is the only shout I could potentially see being used as an alternative to a traited stone signet. The problem is its almost guaranteed to kill your pet when you use it unless its heavily traited or tanky. This is especially true if its taking hits for both you and itself when you’re fighting near it.

Sick ’Em is a pure damage utility that frankly sucks in comparison to Quickening Zephyr and Sharpening Stone.

I can’t think of a single good use to warrant the use of Guard in a utility slot. Or really much of a use if it was even a pet command.

Edit:

Here’s some basic testing of different utilities to give you an idea of how helpful they are:

This is using a lynx. No f2 abilities on a heavy training golem in the mists. Traited for high pet damage including Rending Attacks and Pet’s Prowess. I let the pet solo with different buffs to see how long it took to kill the golem over an average of 10 times per buff.

1. No Buffs: 16.1 seconds
2. Sic ’Em: 15.3 seconds Cooldown: 1 minute
3. Wild Signet: 14.7 seconds Cooldown: 2 minutes
4. Quickening Zephyr: 14.2 seconds Cooldown: 1 minute

As you can see Zephyr outperforms the other utilities that only affect the pet. Zephyr affects the player as well, so you’re getting much more damage output. Sic ’Em barely helps your damage at all!

All said and done those utilities account for 12 of our 20 choices. The Survival and Trap skills feel more thoroughly developed.

Please consider doing a review of our utility options, thanks.

Yeah it’s a thin field. Traps are good. Survival is good.

That is all.

I understand whar you are saying, however rangers as they stand are a viable class in all forms of play (pvp, pve and wvwvw). If they gave us skills equal to other prefessions we would be way OP.

I agree with you there. I really with they would buff the spirits a bit. Maybe move ability for them to follow you further down the trait tree?

I like Signets, and I always have two. Usually Stone and Wild, using Renewal when conditions is a serious threat. However, besides Stone, I agree that using the active is not very attractive.

Spirits is indeed a thing you need to spec into if it’s going to be useful. They don’t personally intrigue me a lot, so eh.

Sick ’Em is for pet people.

I’ve been known to put on S&R every now and then on dungeon runs.. A little buggy sometimes, but having that extra body in the fight helps, and stacking the revive will get them up quick especially if you traited into it.

Rangers still take the good utilities, having other good options isn’t going to make them overpowered, just give more build diversity.

Spirits should be mobile by default. Anyone that takes a spirit utility will get this trait anyways.

Sic ‘Em isn’t ever a good option. You get more damage out of sharpening stone or quickening zephyr, even if you’re a pet person.

I can agree with most of this. I do use S&R in dungeons, though.

The horrible utilities are maybe the worst aspect of the ranger. On every other class it kills me to only have 3 utility slots when I really want just a few more, whereas on the ranger I struggle to fill those slots with anything especially useful, let alone interesting.

i think rangers need better elite skills…. the only real good one i have is mistfire wolf for dmg and “rampage as one” for a speed buff to run…. the super elite skills suck

Hylox.9746:

i think rangers need better elite skills…. the only real good one i have is mistfire wolf for dmg and “rampage as one” for a speed buff to run…. the super elite skills suck

Entangle is sick in WvW and needs to stay, thanks!

I use search and rescue…and signets…. you’re not putting them in a very good light, so i’m assuming you don’t know how good they actually are….

1) Signet of the Wild might as well be a second Elite, firstly you and your pet get health regen that scales REALLY well with your healing power, not to mention the activation makes your pet deal more damage, take less damage, gain a bigger hit box, and have stability…. Yup, totally not worth the 2 minute CD…

2) Signet of the hunt buffs you AND your pets movement, and it’s more noticeable for your pet then it is for you, and it DOES stack with swiftness, as do all other movement boosters, and the CD on that thing is like 30 seconds, 1 min tops, which is nothing for a good 50% boost to your pets attack, especially if you pair that with a drakes breathe attack, that alone will bring any kitten to their knees because it buffs the whole attack not just the first shot.

3) Spirits aren’t bad… there are 2 main ways to use them 1) use them for their passive and place them somewhere that they wont be fought that much or 2) use them for their active and/or natures vengance, and put them in the thick of things, both work really well even with no traits, i personally prefer the former but i will use them for the latter when the need arises.

4) Sic’Em is amazing, significantly better then quickening zephyr, why you ask? Simple! You can 1) continue healing with it 2) your pet deals quite a bit MORE damage with it, 3) it prevents your pet from being taken off your original target unless they stealth, break combat, or kill your pet (yes illusions don’t break pets target).

5) “Guard” Is great when you know what you’re doing… it gives your pet stealth (which it can attack in without breaking it) and protection, making them sturdier.

Just because -YOU- don’t know how to use the skills doesn’t mean they’re bad… L2P before screaming “We’re Broken!” plox.

PS: Only elite i’d say we have that’s even CLOSE to lack luster is spirit of nature because it’s really not worth the 2 min CD, then again, i’ve yet to see it not live that full minute duration… so there is that.

Durzlla.6295:

Don’t agree about the spirits. Their activation chance and passive effects aren’t very good, never mind the chance of stone activating at the right moments. Their range is only 900 meaning they’ll only be on the ranged people if left still. The other options are to have them follow you or move them closer, leaving them in more danger and they are very squishy (even when fully traited).

Fully agree about the shouts and signets tho

Our elites are a bit lackluster, some of the other classes are to. But some are just much better. I mostly use my elite as a second way of gaining swiftness.

Can you increase spirits range with traits? if not the range is just so terrible you are making your group very susceptible to aoe because they have to hug the spirits that die in 1-2 autohits.

I think the biggest problem with most our utilities is they NEED to have traits spent on them just to be viable.

Spirits got nerfed hard from BWE to live because they were really, really effective. I trust that ANet will find the happy medium somewhere, but for now the little spirits are pretty squishy, and their range is really short.

Spirit of nature is simply amazing though. Only three other professions (ele, war, necro) have the aoe insta-res, but ranger is the only one that can use it up to three times within its CD. These insta-resses are invaluable in wvw, dungeons, and for getting NPCs back on their feet in PvE. I will grant you, though, that its other effects are a bit lackluster (one condition removed on activate, very low aoe healing).

As others in this thread have noted, the utilities the OP mentioned are fine and dandy skills, they just tend to be more situational. Having 8/20 skills be generally useful isn’t bad when you only have 3 slots. Swap to the other 12 only when they’re appropriate. That’s kind of why the out-of-combat skill switching is around, after all.

Durzlla.6295:

I use search and rescue…and signets…. you’re not putting them in a very good light, so i’m assuming you don’t know how good they actually are….

1) The passive for Wild signet is indeed not bad. You don’t have me convinced in the slightest about the active ability though. All those things you listed are good, but they only affect your pet unless traited. I’ve done testing which I will get to concerning damage, but its not much of a boost. When you use it you’re regenless for 2 minutes anyways just for giving your pet a small burst in effectiveness. Active abilities should make giving up your passive worthwhile. Not the case with this one.

2) I’ve tested this one as well, and you very well could be right. The problem is only a 10% boost in speed makes it hard to notice if it stacks with other speed boosts. Heck buffing it up to 15% would help. Lord knows thieves don’t have any problems moving around a map quickly if they are specialized for it. The active ability can be good is some situations like the one you mentioned, but it totally depends on the pet you use. It can be easy for the pet to waste it on a regular attack too with how wonky F2 abilities are right now.

3) Spirits WOULD be great if they only bumped up their health. You have to keep them near you and the group to get their short ranged benefit. Chances are they will be getting hit when you are. They die in seconds of summoning them when I’m fighting in a group in PVP even when I do my best to keep them out of the majority of the chaos. That’s with the double health trait as well.

4) I’ll taking zephyr over sic ‘em any day of the week. Its no contest. If you can’t go 4 seconds without using a heal, then that’s your problem. Sic ’Em deals a trivial amount more damage. Let me give you some testing results:

This is using a lynx. No f2 abilities on a heavy training golem in the mists. Traited for high pet damage including Rending Attacks and Pet’s Prowess. I let the pet solo with different buffs to see how long it took to kill the golem over an average of 10 times per buff.

1. No Buffs: 16.1 seconds
2. Sic ’Em: 15.3 seconds Cooldown: 1 minute
3. Wild Signet: 14.7 seconds Cooldown: 2 minutes
4. Quickening Zephyr: 14.2 seconds Cooldown: 1 minute

Quickening Zephyr beats it on several levels. 1. Its burst damage so its a lot of damage in a short amount of time. 2. That is only the pet attacking, the player gets it as well which accounts for a lot more damage. Wild Signet Out performs Sic ’ Em as well, but then again its a 2 minute cooldown. In any case shaving a second or so off the time it takes for the pet to kill a golem is not worth a utility slot. The passive is the only reason to take it.

5. I will admit that the stealth is pretty cool. I didn’t know that they updated it. Last I checked it just camped your pet in a small area without the stealth. I’ll have to test this one a bit further to see how it makes a difference in survivability before judging.

Edit: Some quick testing revealed that the stealth only lasts for about 10 seconds and breaks as soon as it attacks. It doesn’t let the pet attack while stealthed at all. The protection lasts about 10 seconds as well. Whats the point of stealth if it only lasts 10 seconds and breaks as soon as the pet attacks? Not worth it.

Maybe some of you disagree with me, that’s fine. But I’ve been playing around with other professions, and their utility skills seem much more well rounded and useful than what we’re presented. Nothing that some tweaks and mechanic changes couldn’t fix though.

Also I know how2play, thanks.

I just wish search and rescue was more reliable. Do I want my pet to run and start the rez on the 0 damage low level character (as nice as that is), or do I want it to rez the really cool badkitten damager.

Of course my pet will probably not do any of that, it’ll get half way, get hit with a stun, and forget what it was doing.

I’ve had problems using search and rescue as well. It does have some potential, but it’s a pain when your pet doesn’t respond correctly and you end up having to stop and do it yourself.

Hylox.9746:

i think rangers need better elite skills…. the only real good one i have is mistfire wolf for dmg and “rampage as one” for a speed buff to run…. the super elite skills suck

All things considered I think our elites are pretty good. I don’t have any issues with their effectiveness.

I agree on the lack of good ranger utilities
Survival has solid options, but that’s about it

The rest requires traiting and even then it’s not really appealing

Its not that what we have now is weak, it’s just that it leaves no real choice due to how lackluster most of the utilities outside the few good ones are

Hylox.9746:

i think rangers need better elite skills…. the only real good one i have is mistfire wolf for dmg and “rampage as one” for a speed buff to run…. the super elite skills suck

Haha, This is hilarious, “Better” elite skills, Ranger have solid Elite skills, Especially Entangle, Whether in PVP,WvWvW or even in PVE, its such a solid move to use and is highly effective.

Rampage as One Is a pretty good Elite Skill as well and Spirit of Nature is one of the best support skills in the game, Just because it heals and you can revive players by a click of a button, Not only that but when your trait level is up so it follows you, Try and kill someone on my team, I dare you.

@spoodigity

5) Yeah i did some testing again too and guard was nerfed so they -do- get revealed while attacing from stealth, the jaguar (i think that’s the cat with the stealth…) does NOT get removed while attacking from their F2 stealth though, so there is that!! And what i normally will use the “Guard” for is if my pet is being mollywhoped by enemies and i need em to go somewhere, OR if i need him to defend an area that i can see mobs going to in the distance.

One other thing i noticed while using it is SOMETIMES he’ll regain the stealth and protection every 5 seconds or so, and then other times it’s every 15 seconds, and then other times he just never regains the buff so it makes me wonder, are those just freak bugs that cause him to regain those buffs? Or are they actually supposed to keep regaining them?

NOTE: Those ONLY happen while he’s in combat and i have yet to see them happen while out of combat!!

3) After looking at spirits again their range seems shorter then last i used it, granted i still think they’re good untraited (obviously significantly better once traited!) but i do think they need to roll that health buff for the spirits into just being there naturally because how fast they die is kinda ridiculous!

4) Well for starters Signet of Wild isn’t a “burst” skill it’s a “kitten Deal With It!” skill, it makes your pet un CCable, increases his damage, and makes him take less damage, it’s essentially the WoW Hunter skill with a passive while it’s unactive! WELL worth the 2 min CD (not to mention once activated your pet will continue to regen health until the duration of his rampage is at its end)

As for the Sic’Em the whole thing behind it is it lasts longer, and it makes your pet unshakeable, THAT is the reasoning for it, it’s a pressure skill not a burst skill (kinda like signet), sure you can throw that pet around and CC em but they’ll be determined to get to your target and maul their face off until that duration fades away, it also allows them to stay on their target with relative ease seeing as how they become faster then the target even if they have swiftness, the ONLY way your target can escape is if they have that thief signet of movement speed + a swiftness boon, and even then it’s not by much!!

What do i bring? That highly varies, NORMALLY it’s quickening zephyr for the absolute versatility that skill has, i can rez faster with it, i can burst with it, i can get a long cast pet skill off quickly with it, etc etc.

I don’t think any of our utilities are -bad- or lack luster, but we do have -some- that aren’t as simple to use because their point isn’t as clear as others, however i do think spirits need to either A) have an increased range or have increased health, their range used to be 1200 and that made it really good for them being so squishy, but now that’s gone and they just die if you put them to close to the action!

Verheyen.9127:

I just wish search and rescue was more reliable. Do I want my pet to run and start the rez on the 0 damage low level character (as nice as that is), or do I want it to rez the really cool badkitten damager.

Of course my pet will probably not do any of that, it’ll get half way, get hit with a stun, and forget what it was doing.

Actually stuns, knockbacks, dazes, etc etc do not stop your pet from rezzing, SOMETIMEs it’ll bug them and they’ll stop healing their target despite trying to rez…

Angela Ranna.5638:

Spirits got nerfed hard from BWE to live because they were really, really effective. I trust that ANet will find the happy medium somewhere, but for now the little spirits are pretty squishy, and their range is really short.

Spirit of nature is simply amazing though. Only three other professions (ele, war, necro) have the aoe insta-res, but ranger is the only one that can use it up to three times within its CD. These insta-resses are invaluable in wvw, dungeons, and for getting NPCs back on their feet in PvE. I will grant you, though, that its other effects are a bit lackluster (one condition removed on activate, very low aoe healing).

As others in this thread have noted, the utilities the OP mentioned are fine and dandy skills, they just tend to be more situational. Having 8/20 skills be generally useful isn’t bad when you only have 3 slots. Swap to the other 12 only when they’re appropriate. That’s kind of why the out-of-combat skill switching is around, after all.

you can’t use it three times if the spirit dies to aoe.

Durzlla.6295:

2) Signet of the hunt buffs you AND your pets movement, and it’s more noticeable for your pet then it is for you, and it DOES stack with swiftness, as do all other movement boosters

False, only the highest speed boost is applied. I know this very well, because on my thief, I have a +25% speed signet. I’ve a friend warrior who uses warhorn swiftness to speed up traveling. Without the warhorn, I’m considerably faster then him, with warhorn’s swiftness, we both run at equal speed – warhorn gives +33% speed and thus overwrites the signet’s passive.

spoodigity.4321:

This is using a lynx. No f2 abilities on a heavy training golem in the mists. Traited for high pet damage including Rending Attacks and Pet’s Prowess. I let the pet solo with different buffs to see how long it took to kill the golem over an average of 10 times per buff.

1. No Buffs: 16.1 seconds
2. Sic ’Em: 15.3 seconds Cooldown: 1 minute
3. Wild Signet: 14.7 seconds Cooldown: 2 minutes
4. Quickening Zephyr: 14.2 seconds Cooldown: 1 minute

Lynx, like other cat-pets has high precision, resulting in high critical chance, making your results highly questionable. Aside from the great precision, it has crappy power. Try using a canine or a lizard.

Yes, most of our utilities and traits are woefully inefficient compared to others. Even the traps require 30 points to be good. Spirits take 30 points to even have basic functionality.

Overall, I think our utilities are ok. Shouts seems a bit of an after thought. Spirits are squishy, short-ranged, and proc. I’d rather a flat buff. Signets are ok, but do pale in comparison to those of guardian and warrior.

VakarisJ.5619:

Durzlla.6295:

2) Signet of the hunt buffs you AND your pets movement, and it’s more noticeable for your pet then it is for you, and it DOES stack with swiftness, as do all other movement boosters

False, only the highest speed boost is applied. I know this very well, because on my thief, I have a +25% speed signet. I’ve a friend warrior who uses warhorn swiftness to speed up traveling. Without the warhorn, I’m considerably faster then him, with warhorn’s swiftness, we both run at equal speed – warhorn gives +33% speed and thus overwrites the signet’s passive.

spoodigity.4321:

This is using a lynx. No f2 abilities on a heavy training golem in the mists. Traited for high pet damage including Rending Attacks and Pet’s Prowess. I let the pet solo with different buffs to see how long it took to kill the golem over an average of 10 times per buff.

1. No Buffs: 16.1 seconds
2. Sic ’Em: 15.3 seconds Cooldown: 1 minute
3. Wild Signet: 14.7 seconds Cooldown: 2 minutes
4. Quickening Zephyr: 14.2 seconds Cooldown: 1 minute

Lynx, like other cat-pets has high precision, resulting in high critical chance, making your results highly questionable. Aside from the great precision, it has crappy power. Try using a canine or a lizard.

How is my testing questionable? I specifically used a powerful pet because I wanted to give Sic ‘Em a fair chance. I let it kill the target 10 times with each buff and then took the average to account for crits. The range wasn’t more than 1-2 seconds. Canine would probably not kill them as fast even though they have more power.

Durzlla.6295:

@spoodigity

As for the Sic’Em the whole thing behind it is it lasts longer, and it makes your pet unshakeable, THAT is the reasoning for it, it’s a pressure skill not a burst skill (kinda like signet), sure you can throw that pet around and CC em but they’ll be determined to get to your target and maul their face off until that duration fades away, it also allows them to stay on their target with relative ease seeing as how they become faster then the target even if they have swiftness, the ONLY way your target can escape is if they have that thief signet of movement speed + a swiftness boon, and even then it’s not by much!!

I really don’t know what you mean by Sic ‘EM being “unshakable”. I’ve noticed no difference in the pet’s AI when using it. You command a pet to attack a target and it will do so until you say otherwise.

Speed boosts on pets don’t make much of a difference on their effectiveness at attacking moving targets because they still have to stop every time they attack.

Without speed boosts

With speed boosts

Notice how often the pet misses its attacks because it has to stop in its tracks every time it attacks. The speed boost helps it catch back up after stopping a bit, but it doesn’t do anything about the attack animation that lets the enemy move out of range before it lands.

This is just on a training golem that changes directions to let it get in more hits, its much worse in actual PVP since enemies are more mobile and the pet has to contend with CC.

I don’t mind the utilities too much. Every class has a mixed bag of utilities.

I’d rather Anet focus on addressing our pet concerns.

spoodigity.4321:

How is my testing questionable? I specifically used a powerful pet because I wanted to give Sic ‘Em a fair chance. I let it kill the target 10 times with each buff and then took the average to account for crits. The range wasn’t more than 1-2 seconds. Canine would probably not kill them as fast even though they have more power.

Criticals are highly unpredictable, you’d need to try a hundred times and even then there would be a chance that you’d either never get any or crit every hit. While those are extremes, they’re very possible. By using a different pet you’d reliably get less criticals, resulting in less of a chance that your calculations could get derailed by pure chance.
In short – just use a few other pets to confirm the results.

spoodigity.4321:

I really don’t know what you mean by Sic ’EM being “unshakable”.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unshakable

The class just feels unfinished to me…

I compare the Ranger to the other two adventurer classes and it just looks unfinished. Now, every class could use some tweaks up or down, but the Ranger feels like it needs a tweak on the majority of their utility skills. But even given that the class feels unfinished and the pets are mostly a detriment rather than an enhancement to the class, I would still play the Ranger if not for one thing… and that is the lack of movement speed options 10% just doesn’t cut it on a medium wearer.

Yes, I know it is a matter of personal preference but compared to the other to adventure classes Rangers are no where near on par when it comes to movement speed. And, really Rangers need it as bad as Engineers do, as most of our melee is not very good either.

VakarisJ.5619:

spoodigity.4321:

How is my testing questionable? I specifically used a powerful pet because I wanted to give Sic ‘Em a fair chance. I let it kill the target 10 times with each buff and then took the average to account for crits. The range wasn’t more than 1-2 seconds. Canine would probably not kill them as fast even though they have more power.

Criticals are highly unpredictable, you’d need to try a hundred times and even then there would be a chance that you’d either never get any or crit every hit. While those are extremes, they’re very possible. By using a different pet you’d reliably get less criticals, resulting in less of a chance that your calculations could get derailed by pure chance.
In short – just use a few other pets to confirm the results.

spoodigity.4321:

I really don’t know what you mean by Sic ’EM being “unshakable”.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unshakable

When you invest in Beast Mastery combined with the natural precision a cat has, its going to have a high crit rate. Criticals are predictable when you’re keeping a consistent crit rate. You’re looking at average damage, so 10 tries is good enough to get a good approximate of how it preforms on average. The results would be similar if I did it 100 times. I can do the same thing with a power based pet and it will take longer for the kills across the board because of the traits Rending Attacks and Pet Prowess not affecting them as much:

Here’s a canine with the exact same traits, 10 times each buff solo:

No buffs: 22.4 seconds
Sic ’Em: 18.7 seconds
Wild Signet: 20 seconds
Zephyr: 19.3 seconds

Sic ’Em slightly outperformed Zephyr with the canine simply because with the feline Zephyr provided more attack opportunities, which means more vulnerability applications and chances to crit, which means more bleed stacking through the Rending Attacks trait. Zephyr of course still affects the ranger as well so its a better choice by far.

As for Sic ‘Em, it doesn’t say anything about providing the “Unshakable” buff you linked. Was he just using that as an adjective or describing an actual game mechanic? All Sic ’Em does is increase damage output and movement speed like the tooltip says.

Wild Signet providing stability or damage reduction to pet honestly doesn’t entice me. I want utilities to help me, the ranger. I am more concerned about my well being than my pet’s. Going 2 minutes without the regen passive isn’t worth the small benefit you provide to your pet.

I would agree that signet currently feel lackluster. I think shouts are situationally useful, and very powerful in specific instances. Those would require more play-around to form a concrete opinion.

I highly agree. No matter how many builds I test I keep going back to survival-skill ones in sPvP. The rest are just not attractive enough for me to give a hoot.

On top of that, the long-bow is so terrible now that there’s no reason to go anything but shortbow + survival skills.

Durzlla.6295:

3) Spirits aren’t bad… there are 2 main ways to use them 1) use them for their passive and place them somewhere that they wont be fought that much or 2) use them for their active and/or natures vengance, and put them in the thick of things, both work really well even with no traits, i personally prefer the former but i will use them for the latter when the need arises.

I think what people find frustrating is if you make them mobile they become less valuable because they die if sneezed upon. Basically your only points in them should be increasing the proc chance and possibly active effect on death since they will die. Stow them within@ 600 radius out of LOS likely AOE area of enemy. Because lets face it if the enemy spots em the extra HP doesn’t matter nor does it if they are following you.

In defensive positions they can be helpful.

It’ld be nice if their AOE radius could be increased and CD reduced. I’ld find that alot more valuable than moving with me as weak as they are. Perhaps have the actives generate a combo field.

I’ve seen the vids that led to their adjustment and understand how OP they were in beta but they are more than a bit frustrating now.

I approve this message. I only use the Traps for PvE.

I want to like Spirits, but they just have too many drawbacks (low health, don’t move, unpredictable procs).

I want to use Shouts and see my pet wreck face, but the pets have too many intrinsic problems to warrant spending additional resources on them. Even if the pets were effective 100% of the time (could attack on the move, F2 abilities triggered immediately, didn’t die immediately in WvWvW/Dungeons), I still don’t think the Shouts are strong enough. Pets need significant improvements in AI and survivability before Shouts will ever be worth using.

If I’m standing at longbow range, and I initiate combat by telling my pet to “Sic ’em!”… they sprint about halfway out, then stop, look confused, and come wandering back.

Not really what you’d expect to see, I think. At the very least they should continue on and actually … you know… sic ’em.

spoodigity.4321:

When you invest in Beast Mastery combined with the natural precision a cat has, its going to have a high crit rate. Criticals are predictable when you’re keeping a consistent crit rate. You’re looking at average damage, so 10 tries is good enough to get a good approximate of how it preforms on average. The results would be similar if I did it 100 times. I can do the same thing with a power based pet and it will take longer for the kills across the board because of the traits Rending Attacks and Pet Prowess not affecting them as much:

Here’s a canine with the exact same traits, 10 times each buff solo:

No buffs: 22.4 seconds
Sic ’Em: 18.7 seconds
Wild Signet: 20 seconds
Zephyr: 19.3 seconds

Sic ’Em slightly outperformed Zephyr with the canine simply because with the feline Zephyr provided more attack opportunities, which means more vulnerability applications and chances to crit, which means more bleed stacking through the Rending Attacks trait. Zephyr of course still affects the ranger as well so its a better choice by far.

As for Sic ‘Em, it doesn’t say anything about providing the “Unshakable” buff you linked. Was he just using that as an adjective or describing an actual game mechanic? All Sic ’Em does is increase damage output and movement speed like the tooltip says.

Wild Signet providing stability or damage reduction to pet honestly doesn’t entice me. I want utilities to help me, the ranger. I am more concerned about my well being than my pet’s. Going 2 minutes without the regen passive isn’t worth the small benefit you provide to your pet.

I wonder which canine you used, because out of them, hyena has the weakest attack, but can call in it’s relatives to help.

It seems to me, the tables have turned upside-down. Without the criticals, results are completely different then with criticals, causing one to believe that they were, in fact, the reason for a skill that gives a 4second boost looking better then one that gives 15s. While you justify the feline statistics via “more attack opportunities” that’s exactly the thing that destabilizes your charts – more critical unpredictability. If your pet would have 50% crit, then your results would be 50% accurate, even with multiple tries.

While Zephyr causes you to speed up as well, you can easily get affected by Sic ‘Em too, by getting a trait. Maybe that doesn’t make it viable in your build, but this game’s made so that no build would be a bad build.

About unshakable, I think he was either referring to old data, or the buff is unwritten, just like some other bonuses from other skills/abilities. Might want to look into that one.

Signets are meant for the use of their passive, being granted highly-situational active effects, that I, personally, never use. It’s no exception regarding this signet. One can surely think of times where you’d want your pet to have that stability and durability.
If you’d change this, you might as well change necro’s Signet of Undeath, which generates a mere 1% lifeforce every 3 seconds while you’re in combat mode and has an active effect that rallies 3 downed (not defeated) allies in a small area, with a 180s (3 minute) cooldown.

VakarisJ.5619:

I wonder which canine you used, because out of them, hyena has the weakest attack, but can call in it’s relatives to help.

It seems to me, the tables have turned upside-down. Without the criticals, results are completely different then with criticals, causing one to believe that they were, in fact, the reason for a skill that gives a 4second boost looking better then one that gives 15s. While you justify the feline statistics via “more attack opportunities” that’s exactly the thing that destabilizes your charts – more critical unpredictability. If your pet would have 50% crit, then your results would be 50% accurate, even with multiple tries.

While Zephyr causes you to speed up as well, you can easily get affected by Sic ‘Em too, by getting a trait. Maybe that doesn’t make it viable in your build, but this game’s made so that no build would be a bad build.

About unshakable, I think he was either referring to old data, or the buff is unwritten, just like some other bonuses from other skills/abilities. Might want to look into that one.

Signets are meant for the use of their passive, being granted highly-situational active effects, that I, personally, never use. It’s no exception regarding this signet. One can surely think of times where you’d want your pet to have that stability and durability.
If you’d change this, you might as well change necro’s Signet of Undeath, which generates a mere 1% lifeforce every 3 seconds while you’re in combat mode and has an active effect that rallies 3 downed (not defeated) allies in a small area, with a 180s (3 minute) cooldown.

The testing was with the drakehound. Yes the criticals were the main reason for the increased performance across the board compared to the hound. Traits that give increased crit damage by 30%, bleed damage on normal crits, and the feline’s basic attack that provides vulnerability on hits are going to push the effectiveness of the feline over the hound by a pretty substantial margin in terms of DPS. The point isn’t to look at the difference in performance between different pet families though, its to look at how the utility boosts affect their performance. Critical chance doesn’t matter, it could be any size, as long as its consistent between testing and you’re getting a large enough sample size to get an average to account for some runs that might have more or less crits than others. I don’t know how to explain it any better. The only thing worth noting between the hound and feline is that zephyr benefited the feline more in relation to the other utilities.

In any case its nitpicking details when you should be looking at the big picture. The utility boosts to pet damage don’t provide a good enough boost to warrant using over other more effective utilities. This is mainly because while the boosts themselves might seem good on paper, pets are still only attacking at the rate of maybe once every 2 seconds or so.

As for signets, I don’t know about you but I find myself using the active abilities on my guardian much more often. Both because their active abilities are useful, (knockdown and damage enemy, retaliation and weakness to all nearby allies and enemies, revive an ally,) but their cooldowns are all pretty short so you can get access to the passive faster (with the exception of revive ally which is understandably long, but well worth having).

spoodigity.4321:

<…> The only thing worth noting between the hound and feline is that zephyr benefited the feline more in relation to the other utilities.

In any case its nitpicking details when you should be looking at the big picture. The utility boosts to pet damage don’t provide a good enough boost to warrant using over other more effective utilities. This is mainly because while the boosts themselves might seem good on paper, pets are still only attacking at the rate of maybe once every 2 seconds or so.

While more hits does mean a higher chance of criticals per second, it doesn’t actually increase the crit-rate it self, the only thing your testing has proven so far, is that in the situation you’ve a pet-crit-based build, Zephyr is better on crit-based pets, while Sic ’Em is better on high damage pets. I wonder if Sic ’Em would retain a consistent lead with other builds…

As for signets, I don’t know about you but I find myself using the active abilities on my guardian much more often. Both because their active abilities are useful, (knockdown and damage enemy, retaliation and weakness to all nearby allies and enemies, revive an ally,) but their cooldowns are all pretty short so you can get access to the passive faster (with the exception of revive ally which is understandably long, but well worth having).

While playing as a thief I’ve noticed that I’ve never used my Signet of Shadows’ (+25% speed passive) active effect (AoE 6.5s blind), nor my Signet of Agility’s (precision passive) endurance refilling, AoE condition curing active effect.
Neither did I use my Signet of Undeath as a necromancer all that much – what are the odds that more then 1 ally will die in the same exact place? In dungeons you use good communication, so you’ll not get caught by a killer AoE and in WvW there’s either too much space or too much DPS getting dished out to successfully use it.
Reviving only 1 downed person is only useful in small-scale battles and even then the 3-minute cooldown is questionable.

While there are signets with very useful active effects (in the guardian’s Signet of Mercy’s case – more useful then the passive), they’re few and far in between. Tweaking the signets of one class would require other for other classes’ signets to be adjusted as well.

So, using different u-skills for different pets is most effective? Gee, who knew?! Only problem is, it doesn’t matter. If you shave 1 second off the kill-time on a golem by using one u-skill over another, focusing benefits on an unreliable, easily-killed, easily-kited, buggy pet is still less effective than focusing your u-skills on yourself. Taking Sic ‘Em over QZ just isn’t smart, and there isn’t a trait that let’s Sic ‘Em grant you the effect as well, while QZ affects both of you. No matter how you slice it, in most scenarios, pets only account for 40% or less of your total damage. Increasing your damage is far superior than increasing their’s for that simple reason alone.

In short, any utility skill that only benefits your pet in terms of damage is a waste because it is more efficient, and effective to build around yourself instead as you are more reliable. Stuff that makes your pet tanky is really only of benefit in PvE, as in PvP tanky pets aren’t reliable, and don’t typically bring anything good to the table.

Animosity.5231:

So, using different u-skills for different pets is most effective? Gee, who knew?! Only problem is, it doesn’t matter. If you shave 1 second off the kill-time on a golem by using one u-skill over another, focusing benefits on an unreliable, easily-killed, easily-kited, buggy pet is still less effective than focusing your u-skills on yourself. Taking Sic ‘Em over QZ just isn’t smart, and there isn’t a trait that let’s Sic ‘Em grant you the effect as well, while QZ affects both of you. No matter how you slice it, in most scenarios, pets only account for 40% or less of your total damage. Increasing your damage is far superior than increasing their’s for that simple reason alone.

In short, any utility skill that only benefits your pet in terms of damage is a waste because it is more efficient, and effective to build around yourself instead as you are more reliable. Stuff that makes your pet tanky is really only of benefit in PvE, as in PvP tanky pets aren’t reliable, and don’t typically bring anything good to the table.

You missed the whole point about Zepyr vs Sick ‘Em…
Also, I don’t see how does tanking come into this, when canines are flat DPS, while felines are crit-based.

And you miss the point of the thread. Ranger utilities are lackluster, and this is, in part, because we have so few good options to choose from. If you want to build around a pet, you have more options, but it’s by default less effective than building around yourself. The Sic ’Em vs. QZ debate ends when you realize that pet effectiveness is secondary to player effectiveness, so taking Sic ’Em over anything else is going to be subpar, and this reduces the amount of utility options we have.

If the tanking part is irrelevant, then who cares? Ignore it. My main point was that building around a pet is subpar in almost every circumstance except in PvE where building a tanky pet can be worthwhile. I acknowledge it has a use, and I said it as a preemptive response to the people who build that way.

Animosity.5231:

And you miss the point of the thread. Ranger utilities are lackluster, and this is, in part, because we have so few good options to choose from. If you want to build around a pet, you have more options, but it’s by default less effective than building around yourself. The Sic ’Em vs. QZ debate ends when you realize that pet effectiveness is secondary to player effectiveness, so taking Sic ’Em over anything else is going to be subpar, and this reduces the amount of utility options we have.

If the tanking part is irrelevant, then who cares? Ignore it. My main point was that building around a pet is subpar in almost every circumstance except in PvE where building a tanky pet can be worthwhile. I acknowledge it has a use, and I said it as a preemptive response to the people who build that way.

You miss the point of the branch of the thread. Ranger abilities are pretty kitten decent.

If you want to focus your power on your character instead of your pet, then maybe you’d want to play as something other then a ranger, because the whole point in a ranger is to have about equal power in both the character and the pet.

Right… Everything that you say that makes no sense – I should just ignore. Good job.