Guild Wars 2

Currently I have a Warrior, Guardian, Mesmer and Ranger on level 80. All exotic / ascended equipped. I tested many builds with all of them – offensive direct damage specs, condition specs, supporter specs and whatnot – actually also with all other classes at least in PvP. Thus I claim to know something about classes and their diversity. I don’t want to talk about PvP here because I really gave up the idea, GW won’t have the paper, scissors, stone balancing there.

What I want to say is, certain classes are better for DPS or Support in PvE. I would not care about that if the difference was like 20-30%. But I am having a problem because the differences I see are like 100% and more from one to another class.

I’ll try to illustrate my thoughts with the help of a personal thesis:
Bring 5 full equipped Zerk-Warriors for a dungeon run. Then log on 5 full equipped DPS Rangers and do the same. I say the Ranger group needs at least 3 times as long as the Zerker group to kill a certain boss or a trash group. You may say, I don’t have the right build with the ranger or the meta is just worse. I say, that’s awesome give me the right build then.
But frankly I don’t believe there is any. You may also say the ranger is better as supporter or defensive class. I say support and defensive is just absolutely useless compared to pure offensive specs in dungeons. The faster you kill a boss the less you need any support. I for myself am sure it’s easier to bring 5 capable DD’s to a dungeon than any other combination. Maybe in fractals 20+ it changes a little.

I am too lazy to prove my thesis with videos or other methods. If you played different classes in dungeons you will understand what I said.

I think it’s just really sad, certain classes are way more effective in what they do than others. If I want to do dungeons I should bring my warrior. This is what my intention say and all the LFG request in /k. I might also bring my time-warp-portal Mesmer for DPS support or my Guardian for some paths in Arah or fractals. What I should not bring is my Ranger, because he is just worse than any other class I own. This is sad because I would love to play my Ranger more. I like the style and how the class is played, but it’s just not effective..

When will ANet realize that and change something. I don’t mean nerfing some cool specs from other classes into the ground, so they are totally useless. Some weak specs and overall damage should be increased.

If you did not employ a balancing team of charladies and they will return from their 7 month holiday, they actually should know what to do by themselves.

There are many dungeons where 5 zergker warrior will just die

Chokolata.1870:

There are many dungeons where 5 zergker warrior will just die

You are right there are dungeons where 5 zerker warriors make no sense because they lack survivability. However I tried to compare the possible damage output of classes. A pure class-cannon ranger is as squishy as a zerker but does only a third of the warriors damage.
I just wish there was an offensive spec for every class which is comparable to the the others in regard of the damage dealt, or I don’t have to bring a certain class if I want to deal damage or be a supporter. Because at the moment it’s about bringing the right class not the player although the trinity doesn’t exist. It’s possible to do every dungeon with any class combination, even 5 rangers, but it’s just not as effective as certain combinations and the reason is just some do much more damage or have way better support than others.

i dont think rangers are meant to be made as a glasscannon . But i can suggest a build that will do as much damage over time as a warrior would without being totally useless .

Chokolata.1870:

i dont think rangers are meant to be made as a glasscannon . But i can suggest a build that will do as much damage over time as a warrior would without being totally useless .

Yes please, but ranged if possible. Because I don’t want to play only melee with the Ranger ;-)

You are wrong on one thing: support is not useless. Support is useful if by bringing the support instead of a pure damage dealer you will finish the dungeon faster and easier. It all comes down do opportunity cost.

Chokolata.1870:

There are many dungeons where 5 zergker warrior will just die

I’d say it would be a problem outside CoF1. That wouldn’t be playing within the GW2 trinity. Generally, it’s ideal to have an anchor guardian for aggro management. (Their high toughness/low health is an effective taunt.) They can efficiently grab aggro and position the mob of interest for the…, three zerker warriors to burn him down. Meanwhile a Mesmer provides group utility and support.

The problem with the Ranger is that they don’t fit into a group role. Because a Guardian really can’t tank without direct heals, the damage must be very high for the group to survive and only zerker Warriors fit the bill. The Ranger just doesn’t have sufficient DPS to contribute to a ‘serious’ dungeon group. Don’t get me wrong, they can do fine in a guild group and sometimes in a pug, but people typically won’t be looking for a Ranger to fill a group role. Why? It’s not a good profession for an existing role.

There is always a lot of talk about GW2 not having the trinity and they don’t in the traditional sense. Group roles have emerged as roles are the first thing humans figure out when faced with a group objective. Along with buffing the Ranger, they really need to re-think combat roles in groups. There will be roles in combat if humans are involved. It would be helpful if the game provided some support for them.

ive been playing a glass cannon shortbow/GS Ranger forever and I rarely die in Arah or CoE (main dungeons I run). obv 5 zerk warriors are going to kill things faster than 5 zerk rangers. 5 zerk rangers will most likely complete the dungeon just as fast because they can kite and not die. Warriors are built for dungeon crawling, its what they do. With that said, I still like the ranger tons more than the warrior

I think the mindset is kind of wrong here. 5 zerker warriors out-dps 5 zerker of ANY profession. But I doubt you would see people posting at guardian forums stating that zerker guardians lose to warriors.

In PvE, the main thing in playing a dungeon is probably the team dynamics and individual player skills. 5 of the same class is definitely less effective than a mix of classes in the same dungeon. A skilled ranger can definitely outlast/out-dps a new warrior. Likewise, an experienced guardian/engineer can heal/res the party efficiently.

But in most cases, you are unlikely to have that perfect set-up. You could be playing with a pug group, or guiding guildmates, playing with friends etc. The importance here, in my opinion, would be to play your class most effectively, whichever class that may be.

Atroras.9481:

I think the mindset is kind of wrong here. 5 zerker warriors out-dps 5 zerker of ANY profession. But I doubt you would see people posting at guardian forums stating that zerker guardians lose to warriors.

In PvE, the main thing in playing a dungeon is probably the team dynamics and individual player skills. 5 of the same class is definitely less effective than a mix of classes in the same dungeon. A skilled ranger can definitely outlast/out-dps a new warrior. Likewise, an experienced guardian/engineer can heal/res the party efficiently.

But in most cases, you are unlikely to have that perfect set-up. You could be playing with a pug group, or guiding guildmates, playing with friends etc. The importance here, in my opinion, would be to play your class most effectively, whichever class that may be.

As I said I dont think its a problem that zerker warriors outperform any other class damagewise. I am just disapointed the ranger seems to do WAY less damage and dying faster than any of my other classes if specced for pure damage. I know it’s kind of good to play supportive as Ranger, however to have just that option is bad.
If my warrior is doing like 3 times the damage of my ranger and last much longer in difficult dungeons I am really asking if thats the intention of the balancing.

I know a good Ranger brings some good utilities to the group and it wont be a problem to do any content so far. But then ANet should be honest and say: Take class X if you really want to do damge and take class Y if you want to support. In fact they say it does not matter what class you play.
It’s like one would say: To travel 5000 miles you may take the airplane or you may just walk. Both is possible and gets you to the end. Thus it doesnt matter right? 0_o

Curious, how much damage would a tanky Ranger do vs a tanky Warrior?

I’m sure a Warrior in Knights gear with high fury, might and perhaps a hammer could manage some good punishment while dipping into the defense line but I think a tanky Ranger can be built to sustain quite a lot more than a Warrior while dishing out more damage via a damaging pet…

But these are just my observations from playing both. It feels like the Ranger has a lot more tools to not die and going into beastmastery, the pet can still pump out 2-4k damage on its own. But I’m only running my Ranger through normal dungeons atm (not 80 yet) and it’s simply easier in every respect. Support the team? Plop down a healing spring. Remove conditions? Same thing. Anchor? Swap to a dog or a drake. Do more damage? Take a cat or a bird. Not die? I’ve got evades in my attacks, a quicker recharging shield stance, a longer lasting Endure Pain (x2 with traits) that recharge nearly as fast, and tricks and swaps to kite things around, keep out of danger or simply be able to accomplish things even when I have to back off to help others/myself. For a warrior, if you can’t just roll over it, you have no other option but to dodge better.

While Ranger can feel like a Warrior with more options and tricks, yeah you still won’t be as effective. All things considered, if Ranger could accomplish what a Warrior could if they manage pet right, that’d kind of undermine Warrior a lot. Take away a Warrior’s Greatsword and all they’re left with is an auto-attack axe and sub-par sustain. There’s very little wiggle room for error or exploration. A lot of the Warriors are hoping for better sustain options so they can anchor easier in PvE and sustain better in PvP but likely, I’d suspect they’d have to trade some of their offense for that. Same for Ranger, they’ve got lots of sustain and evade options which is their strength, try giving them near Warrior damage and I’d suspect one would have to trade some of that survival for it.

Torgal.8345:

Chokolata.1870:

There are many dungeons where 5 zergker warrior will just die

You are right there are dungeons where 5 zerker warriors make no sense because they lack survivability. However I tried to compare the possible damage output of classes. A pure class-cannon ranger is as squishy as a zerker but does only a third of the warriors damage.
I just wish there was an offensive spec for every class which is comparable to the the others in regard of the damage dealt, or I don’t have to bring a certain class if I want to deal damage or be a supporter. Because at the moment it’s about bringing the right class not the player although the trinity doesn’t exist. It’s possible to do every dungeon with any class combination, even 5 rangers, but it’s just not as effective as certain combinations and the reason is just some do much more damage or have way better support than others.

He actually does only 30% less damage and this is without the pet. Also the eveade of the autoattack chain makes ranger stay alive significantly longer.