Guild Wars 2

jcbroe.4329:

Alright, I think I need to clarify the discussion about where ANet’s version of the ranger comes from, since it appears that the community has a real lacking of insight as to how classes transitioned from what they were to what they are.

In Guild Wars 1, bow rangers did most of their damage through conditions like poison, bleeding, and burning. The few builds that were more centered around direct damage didn’t have “instant bonus damage,” but made bows into more “turret” like builds, which could achieve a high output of constant damage, but that damage in Guild Wars 1 would have been considered a pressure/spike assist build, and not a spike build.

The ONLY skill I can even think of right now that could be considered true burst would be Punishing Shot, which was like an Elite Version of Savage Shot, which was also burst, but only against casters. Both of these skills required and interrupt to do burst damage.

All the while, rangers used tools like removing conditions block stances, and movement speed to stay alive.

Now, moving into GW2, what we can see is that the ranger is still largely based around conditions and evasion and movement, as as well sustained damage, and even interrupting for big damage.

Is it perfect in Guild Wars 2? No, but the ranger class as seen be ANet has never been a high damage 1 shot sniper.

Just a history lesson to end the bickering.

I don’t think they will ever accept that image of a Ranger jcbroe, until they play an actual ranger from GW1. Skills will never be appreciated, traits, and game play of this class from these gw2 rangers.

AEFA.9035:

jcbroe.4329:

Alright, I think I need to clarify the discussion about where ANet’s version of the ranger comes from, since it appears that the community has a real lacking of insight as to how classes transitioned from what they were to what they are.

In Guild Wars 1, bow rangers did most of their damage through conditions like poison, bleeding, and burning. The few builds that were more centered around direct damage didn’t have “instant bonus damage,” but made bows into more “turret” like builds, which could achieve a high output of constant damage, but that damage in Guild Wars 1 would have been considered a pressure/spike assist build, and not a spike build.

The ONLY skill I can even think of right now that could be considered true burst would be Punishing Shot, which was like an Elite Version of Savage Shot, which was also burst, but only against casters. Both of these skills required and interrupt to do burst damage.

All the while, rangers used tools like removing conditions block stances, and movement speed to stay alive.

Now, moving into GW2, what we can see is that the ranger is still largely based around conditions and evasion and movement, as as well sustained damage, and even interrupting for big damage.

Is it perfect in Guild Wars 2? No, but the ranger class as seen be ANet has never been a high damage 1 shot sniper.

Just a history lesson to end the bickering.

I don’t think they will ever accept that image of a Ranger jcbroe, until they play an actual ranger from GW1. Skills will never be appreciated, traits, and game play of this class from these gw2 rangers.

The problem is that GW1 and GW2 are two totally different kinds of games. GW1 was all about teamwork and only needed a dedicated aggro system to be true blue holy trinity. Rangers were backline single target damage and interrupts. We were never designed to be high damage/nukers. And that was okay because that’s what elementalists were for. In pvp, we were part of a RPS system with casters and warriors. Casters beat warriors, warriors beat rangers, and rangers had tools to shutdown casters. That’s why we had 100 armor vs elemental damage and 70 omni armor while warriors had 80 omni armor and 100 vs physical damage. It’s also why we had the ability to operate beyond the range of any other class and plenty of increased run speed skills to maintain that range. Conditions weren’t even the same as they are now. You weren’t ever going to kill someone with degen unless you were a necro or mesmer stacking degen hexes on a person. Poison and bleeding just didn’t do enough damage when compared to an axe warrior eviscerating you. The poison in the cripshot build was there for pressure and to cover the cripple condition, not for dps.

It all worked as intended even with the constant injection of new skills and classes. The few times we broke out of the trend was when bizarre builds like Ranger Spike, Bunnythumper, and Touch became possible but they all eventually fell out of favor due to direct nerfs or other builds performing the damage role better.

Fast forward to GW2 days and all that Ranger biz from GW1 stops mattering. There is no more trinity, RPS system. Interrupts are just hard CC, not a specific class role that anyone has dominion over and we are hardly the best at condition spam. Even the idea of sustained pressure stops mattering because everyone is their own healer. There is no more monk to keep on their toes or rez’s to hit with a distracting shot to win the match. Nor do any of the other burst classes need us to keep an enemy CC’d for them so they can catch up and Evicerate/Dragon Slash them to death. Hell, until power builds for the ranger become the meta (bunnythumper), we won’t have anything our old cousins did well.

It’s also disingenuous to call GW2 Rangers the Ranger2.0 with regards to the previous game. We all know full well that the Ranger as we know it is what was left of the Warden and Beastmaster classes when both were deemed nonviable as classes unto themselves. We were never just a direct port in the way the other classes obviously were. And it’s not hard to see when the old ranger doesn’t really have a home in the new GW world just as a direct port of the Ritualist would not only create a bunkering nightmare in spvp, it would be kitten near useless in pve boss fights and wvw for the same reasons we have trouble with our pets in those situations.

I just wanted to point out that I personally wasn’t trying to say anything about GW1 versus GW2 gameplay lol. I was just trying to end the argument about “what ranger means” because regardless of the origins of the word, clever wordplay, and what other games have done to create a archetype within their atmosphere, Arena already previously defined what a ranger was in Guild Wars 1 as a development company, and then tried to translate it into Guild Wars 2.

That’s all I’m saying. You don’t look at the origins of a word, or how WoW or whatever game made the “primarily ranged typically with bow” class, you look at the previous iteration of the class that was created by the company.

Don’t forget GW1 has a terrible chess-like (or pacman) moving, so Rangers there didn’t really had any option to sustain damage. If I remember well then they wasn’t even able to attack while moving. Assassins neither.

What we need here on topic of damage, is Interrupts, Torment, Poison, and high-rof sustained damage. We lack all of these right now.
In GW1 we had a role to keep interrupting supporters at the other end of a fight.
Now its like thieves and mesmers chasing us for easy lootbags.
Yesterday when Deso zerg breached the South Bay gate, 5+ leaped at me meanwhile I was in mutch better position than anyone else in front of me. It’s just…

RoyalPredator.9163:

Don’t forget GW1 has a terrible chess-like (or pacman) moving, so Rangers there didn’t really had any option to sustain damage. If I remember well then they wasn’t even able to attack while moving. Assassins neither.

What we need here on topic of damage, is Interrupts, Torment, Poison, and high-rof sustained damage. We lack all of these right now.
In GW1 we had a role to keep interrupting supporters at the other end of a fight.
Now its like thieves and mesmers chasing us for easy lootbags.
Yesterday when Deso zerg breached the South Bay gate, 5+ leaped at me meanwhile I was in mutch better position than anyone else in front of me. It’s just…

Actually, the chess movement worked in our favor a lot and we were easily one of the, if not the, most mobile classes in the game so it was never hard to keep the distance. Plus, if you have a warrior chasing you all gvg match then he isn’t killing any of your teammates then is he?

As far as sustained damage goes, I don’t think there was anything better than a touch ranger. It was gimicky in gvg/halls but was borderline OP in alliance battles and FA because people there are just too stupid to function.

I never played GW1, but from the descriptions you guys have, it honestly doesn’t sound that much different than a Ranger class in any other MMO.

Lower overall damage per shot, but higher rate of fire to maintain an elevated level of DPS with support skills to spike damage to apply pressure. All the while the majority of the class’s defense and offensive utility came from their ability to kite their opponents with limited on demand skills for emergencies and to escape from CC.

Sound about right? And then compare that model to GW2…

I’m not sure they’ve covered any of those area sufficiently enough for the class to handle anything remotely close to ogranized group play. Certainly enough for dueling or small scale roaming. But groups of 5-10 all the way up to zergs?

Atherakhia.4086:

I never played GW1, but from the descriptions you guys have, it honestly doesn’t sound that much different than a Ranger class in any other MMO.

Lower overall damage per shot, but higher rate of fire to maintain an elevated level of DPS with support skills to spike damage to apply pressure. All the while the majority of the class’s defense and offensive utility came from their ability to kite their opponents with limited on demand skills for emergencies and to escape from CC.

Sound about right? And then compare that model to GW2…

I’m not sure they’ve covered any of those area sufficiently enough for the class to handle anything remotely close to ogranized group play. Certainly enough for dueling or small scale roaming. But groups of 5-10 all the way up to zergs?

The bolded part specifically is a very good point, but it isn’t just specific to the ranger.

Combat in Guild Wars 2 is balanced around PvP, 5v5 specifically more than the node capture aspect (otherwise decap engis wouldn’t exist).

This translates to areas of the game like dungeons, which are also 5 man team compositions, except that dungeons are mostly treated as a DPS check, so a lot of support roles tend to get overshadowed by boosting damage numbers, and high damage/1 shot dungeon mechanics don’t translate well to AI based builds (mesmers, turret engis, spirit rangers/guardians, etc) that otherwise would have more potential to work elsewhere.

And THEN, there is WvW, where small scale combat translating into bigger scenarios breaks tons of mechanics that work in small scale 5v5 type environments. AI has the tendency to get melted, stuns, which are among the strongest CC in the game, are plentiful and more spammable by groups then any amount of passive and reactive counters you could possibly try to take to counter the situation, and boons, particularly like protection, retaliation, and stability, are so maintainable and have so few counters that it becomes near impossible to counter the tactic of stacking these boons without employing the same tactic with the same numbers and hoping your players are better and the RNG favors you.

Then take rangers, who employ certain methods of group support, like offering tons of soft CC, poison, vulnerability, and spirits, and all of these things are literally countered by the sheer amount of the counters to these things that are stacked and spammed. It’s only of the reason why I keep saying the rangers need boon punishment, but that isn’t enough for what I’m talking about. Conditions for large group play need to be able to “stick” better, and our AI support needs to not melt in the face of more than a few players hitting an area with such massive AoE damage that the spirits insta-die.

I have no suggestion on how to make either of those things happen without breaking something else though, which leaves me with only ever being able to confidently suggest boon punishment.

Well the defensive issues of the class would be resolved somewhat if there were actual CC immunities or diminished returns. Take stun break for example. The class has its fair share of options to break stuns, and while less than others, it’s still enough to succeed in dueling and the limited combat PvP has to offer. Breaking a stun just to have it followed by another stun in WvW gets you no where. The same can be said about the Ranger’s plentiful evades which gets them no where in WvW, their immobilizes that are removed instantly, etc. These mechanics simply don’t work at the WvW level largely due to the way they’ve designed the game and not necessarily because it’s WvW.

But even with that said, you still see these issues in PvP. Say the Ranger pushes for middle for example, he doesn’t excell at this role because they weren’t given the tools to do it. Especially not as a power build. the value of all those evades are largely lost because they don’t hold up when it’s more than 1v1 or 2v1. Immobilizes don’t hold up etc.

This leads into my overall complaint with the CDI thread though. Where you would expect ANet to bring the Ranger up to a level to fit into the game they’ve made, they appear to be treating this class as ‘business as usual’ and will take the 2 year plan of bringing the game down to the Ranger’s level.

The Ranger is a duelist (but only as a condi/bunker, not power) and all of their skills excell at only this one role. But where a Thief can still provide a lot of AE weakness and poison, or high burst to take out key targets etc, the Ranger doesn’t have a back-up plan. They’re forever a duelist. Stuck with tools that work in no other way. Left with no useful offensive tools. Provide utility that is simply too weak to take notice of.

they should apply the zerg scaling they got on LS bosses to our pets. More people, stronger pets. End of discussion. Less people, weaker pets. They got the mechanic, shouldnt be too hard to add it

Prysin.8542:

they should apply the zerg scaling they got on LS bosses to our pets. More people, stronger pets. End of discussion. Less people, weaker pets. They got the mechanic, shouldnt be too hard to add it

Would they get the DPS increase too

I could see it now, a row of bears leading the charge obliterating the front line of an enemy zerg. It would look like that Witch Doctor ability from D3!

Obviously you meant health and armor only. Still a man can dream!

Atherakhia.4086:

Prysin.8542:

they should apply the zerg scaling they got on LS bosses to our pets. More people, stronger pets. End of discussion. Less people, weaker pets. They got the mechanic, shouldnt be too hard to add it

Would they get the DPS increase too

I could see it now, a row of bears leading the charge obliterating the front line of an enemy zerg. It would look like that Witch Doctor ability from D3!

Obviously you meant health and armor only. Still a man can dream!

i want jaguar with zerg scaled damage

0/10/0/30/30 with frost spirit …. aww yeah… 99k crits all over da place XD

Has anyone ever suggested applying the AOE limit to pets and spirits too?

Seems like the simplest solution to rangers’ zerg problems.

Sube Dai.8496:

Has anyone ever suggested applying the AOE limit to pets and spirits too?

Seems like the simplest solution to rangers’ zerg problems.

the AOE “limit” is on number of targets at once, that limit is set specifically to each attack. not the “victim”. So i don’t quite get what you’re on about

jcbroe.4329:

I have no suggestion on how to make either of those things happen without breaking something else though, which leaves me with only ever being able to confidently suggest boon punishment.

The most obvious and simplest is to split the game modes and give different functionality for different modes. In pvp, spirits can be nerfed to what ever level they feel appropriate and in pve/wvw they can either be made invulnerable like banners or into massive HP sponges so they can work in world bosses and zergs.

Ultimately though, that decision rests with Anet. Its not that they aren’t doing it because they can’t, it’s because they don’t want to and it’s really just a matter of how long before they realize that they are wrong. They had to do it the first time around because there were too many skills and combos breaking things and they will have to do it again because the game modes are too different for a unified rule set to apply equally in a way that is fun for everyone.

So many of our needed fixes (better pets, spirits that work like banners ect) just won’t ever happen to the degree they need to as long as they will break spvp.

Substance E.4852:

jcbroe.4329:

I have no suggestion on how to make either of those things happen without breaking something else though, which leaves me with only ever being able to confidently suggest boon punishment.

The most obvious and simplest is to split the game modes and give different functionality for different modes. In pvp, spirits can be nerfed to what ever level they feel appropriate and in pve/wvw they can either be made invulnerable like banners or into massive HP sponges so they can work in world bosses and zergs.

Ultimately though, that decision rests with Anet. Its not that they aren’t doing it because they can’t, it’s because they don’t want to and it’s really just a matter of how long before they realize that they are wrong. They had to do it the first time around because there were too many skills and combos breaking things and they will have to do it again because the game modes are too different for a unified rule set to apply equally in a way that is fun for everyone.

So many of our needed fixes (better pets, spirits that work like banners ect) just won’t ever happen to the degree they need to as long as they will break spvp.

Funny enough, I was just talking to Durz earlier how I think the ultimate goal for traits at this point should be obvious traits with obvious PvE or PvP roles. It was in regards to how basically purposeless Read the Wind is going to have in PvE, and that it is really a PvP/WvW driven change that has no effect on the other game mode.

The scope of that can be expanded to skills and utilities as well, I think.

Although with Spirits, I’m of the opinion that they should go back to being like guild wars 1 spirits, so that they have long ranges and can be placed out of combat, and the PvP counter to that is to force players to sacrifice their positioning to go deal with the spirit, while in PvE/WvW, they can sit out of harms way while still buffing you/teammates. Then, some way to move them instead of an active, like a spirit teleport or a “get up/plant” type function that makes them walk, and a whole new set of traits regarding the new spirits.

But at this point that’s probably me just dreaming haha.

jcbroe.4329:

Substance E.4852:

jcbroe.4329:

I have no suggestion on how to make either of those things happen without breaking something else though, which leaves me with only ever being able to confidently suggest boon punishment.

The most obvious and simplest is to split the game modes and give different functionality for different modes. In pvp, spirits can be nerfed to what ever level they feel appropriate and in pve/wvw they can either be made invulnerable like banners or into massive HP sponges so they can work in world bosses and zergs.

Ultimately though, that decision rests with Anet. Its not that they aren’t doing it because they can’t, it’s because they don’t want to and it’s really just a matter of how long before they realize that they are wrong. They had to do it the first time around because there were too many skills and combos breaking things and they will have to do it again because the game modes are too different for a unified rule set to apply equally in a way that is fun for everyone.

So many of our needed fixes (better pets, spirits that work like banners ect) just won’t ever happen to the degree they need to as long as they will break spvp.

Funny enough, I was just talking to Durz earlier how I think the ultimate goal for traits at this point should be obvious traits with obvious PvE or PvP roles. It was in regards to how basically purposeless Read the Wind is going to have in PvE, and that it is really a PvP/WvW driven change that has no effect on the other game mode.

The scope of that can be expanded to skills and utilities as well, I think.

Although with Spirits, I’m of the opinion that they should go back to being like guild wars 1 spirits, so that they have long ranges and can be placed out of combat, and the PvP counter to that is to force players to sacrifice their positioning to go deal with the spirit, while in PvE/WvW, they can sit out of harms way while still buffing you/teammates. Then, some way to move them instead of an active, like a spirit teleport or a “get up/plant” type function that makes them walk, and a whole new set of traits regarding the new spirits.

But at this point that’s probably me just dreaming haha.

There is definitely no real reason Spirits shouldn’t have similar functionality to Banners. Where Banners can be picked up and become an improvised weapon, Spirits have an active ability. But having the ability to make them somehow move locations would greatly, if not completely, remove the need for the trait to make them follow you. At the same time having to trait into being able to make them change locations is not better than just having them chase you around and is just as poor a situation. So it leaves the question what do you do with that trait if they’re given the functionality to relocate?

Kal Spiro.9745:

jcbroe.4329:

Substance E.4852:

jcbroe.4329:

I have no suggestion on how to make either of those things happen without breaking something else though, which leaves me with only ever being able to confidently suggest boon punishment.

The most obvious and simplest is to split the game modes and give different functionality for different modes. In pvp, spirits can be nerfed to what ever level they feel appropriate and in pve/wvw they can either be made invulnerable like banners or into massive HP sponges so they can work in world bosses and zergs.

Ultimately though, that decision rests with Anet. Its not that they aren’t doing it because they can’t, it’s because they don’t want to and it’s really just a matter of how long before they realize that they are wrong. They had to do it the first time around because there were too many skills and combos breaking things and they will have to do it again because the game modes are too different for a unified rule set to apply equally in a way that is fun for everyone.

So many of our needed fixes (better pets, spirits that work like banners ect) just won’t ever happen to the degree they need to as long as they will break spvp.

Funny enough, I was just talking to Durz earlier how I think the ultimate goal for traits at this point should be obvious traits with obvious PvE or PvP roles. It was in regards to how basically purposeless Read the Wind is going to have in PvE, and that it is really a PvP/WvW driven change that has no effect on the other game mode.

The scope of that can be expanded to skills and utilities as well, I think.

Although with Spirits, I’m of the opinion that they should go back to being like guild wars 1 spirits, so that they have long ranges and can be placed out of combat, and the PvP counter to that is to force players to sacrifice their positioning to go deal with the spirit, while in PvE/WvW, they can sit out of harms way while still buffing you/teammates. Then, some way to move them instead of an active, like a spirit teleport or a “get up/plant” type function that makes them walk, and a whole new set of traits regarding the new spirits.

But at this point that’s probably me just dreaming haha.

There is definitely no real reason Spirits shouldn’t have similar functionality to Banners. Where Banners can be picked up and become an improvised weapon, Spirits have an active ability. But having the ability to make them somehow move locations would greatly, if not completely, remove the need for the trait to make them follow you. At the same time having to trait into being able to make them change locations is not better than just having them chase you around and is just as poor a situation. So it leaves the question what do you do with that trait if they’re given the functionality to relocate?

You scrap it? It’s already the worst trait we have, it moves our squishy spirits into harms way, the spirit actives are pretty stupid as well, because you need to move some fragile group utility buff into Melee range to utilize it, and everyone knows Melee is the most dangerous place to be if you’re squishy.

The active should’ve either been 1) not there and instead been a sort of “teleport to me!” Sort of ability 2) been ground target or 3) been a “get away from me!!” Ability that made enemies have to get away or literally FORCED them away.

Durzlla.6295:

Kal Spiro.9745:

jcbroe.4329:

Substance E.4852:

jcbroe.4329:

I have no suggestion on how to make either of those things happen without breaking something else though, which leaves me with only ever being able to confidently suggest boon punishment.

The most obvious and simplest is to split the game modes and give different functionality for different modes. In pvp, spirits can be nerfed to what ever level they feel appropriate and in pve/wvw they can either be made invulnerable like banners or into massive HP sponges so they can work in world bosses and zergs.

Ultimately though, that decision rests with Anet. Its not that they aren’t doing it because they can’t, it’s because they don’t want to and it’s really just a matter of how long before they realize that they are wrong. They had to do it the first time around because there were too many skills and combos breaking things and they will have to do it again because the game modes are too different for a unified rule set to apply equally in a way that is fun for everyone.

So many of our needed fixes (better pets, spirits that work like banners ect) just won’t ever happen to the degree they need to as long as they will break spvp.

Funny enough, I was just talking to Durz earlier how I think the ultimate goal for traits at this point should be obvious traits with obvious PvE or PvP roles. It was in regards to how basically purposeless Read the Wind is going to have in PvE, and that it is really a PvP/WvW driven change that has no effect on the other game mode.

The scope of that can be expanded to skills and utilities as well, I think.

Although with Spirits, I’m of the opinion that they should go back to being like guild wars 1 spirits, so that they have long ranges and can be placed out of combat, and the PvP counter to that is to force players to sacrifice their positioning to go deal with the spirit, while in PvE/WvW, they can sit out of harms way while still buffing you/teammates. Then, some way to move them instead of an active, like a spirit teleport or a “get up/plant” type function that makes them walk, and a whole new set of traits regarding the new spirits.

But at this point that’s probably me just dreaming haha.

There is definitely no real reason Spirits shouldn’t have similar functionality to Banners. Where Banners can be picked up and become an improvised weapon, Spirits have an active ability. But having the ability to make them somehow move locations would greatly, if not completely, remove the need for the trait to make them follow you. At the same time having to trait into being able to make them change locations is not better than just having them chase you around and is just as poor a situation. So it leaves the question what do you do with that trait if they’re given the functionality to relocate?

You scrap it? It’s already the worst trait we have, it moves our squishy spirits into harms way, the spirit actives are pretty stupid as well, because you need to move some fragile group utility buff into Melee range to utilize it, and everyone knows Melee is the most dangerous place to be if you’re squishy.

The active should’ve either been 1) not there and instead been a sort of “teleport to me!” Sort of ability 2) been ground target or 3) been a “get away from me!!” Ability that made enemies have to get away or literally FORCED them away.

Sorry, what I meant by what you do with it, is what do you replace it with. If a trait goes away something else has to take its place.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Durzlla.6295:

Kal Spiro.9745:

jcbroe.4329:

Substance E.4852:

jcbroe.4329:

I have no suggestion on how to make either of those things happen without breaking something else though, which leaves me with only ever being able to confidently suggest boon punishment.

The most obvious and simplest is to split the game modes and give different functionality for different modes. In pvp, spirits can be nerfed to what ever level they feel appropriate and in pve/wvw they can either be made invulnerable like banners or into massive HP sponges so they can work in world bosses and zergs.

Ultimately though, that decision rests with Anet. Its not that they aren’t doing it because they can’t, it’s because they don’t want to and it’s really just a matter of how long before they realize that they are wrong. They had to do it the first time around because there were too many skills and combos breaking things and they will have to do it again because the game modes are too different for a unified rule set to apply equally in a way that is fun for everyone.

So many of our needed fixes (better pets, spirits that work like banners ect) just won’t ever happen to the degree they need to as long as they will break spvp.

Funny enough, I was just talking to Durz earlier how I think the ultimate goal for traits at this point should be obvious traits with obvious PvE or PvP roles. It was in regards to how basically purposeless Read the Wind is going to have in PvE, and that it is really a PvP/WvW driven change that has no effect on the other game mode.

The scope of that can be expanded to skills and utilities as well, I think.

Although with Spirits, I’m of the opinion that they should go back to being like guild wars 1 spirits, so that they have long ranges and can be placed out of combat, and the PvP counter to that is to force players to sacrifice their positioning to go deal with the spirit, while in PvE/WvW, they can sit out of harms way while still buffing you/teammates. Then, some way to move them instead of an active, like a spirit teleport or a “get up/plant” type function that makes them walk, and a whole new set of traits regarding the new spirits.

But at this point that’s probably me just dreaming haha.

There is definitely no real reason Spirits shouldn’t have similar functionality to Banners. Where Banners can be picked up and become an improvised weapon, Spirits have an active ability. But having the ability to make them somehow move locations would greatly, if not completely, remove the need for the trait to make them follow you. At the same time having to trait into being able to make them change locations is not better than just having them chase you around and is just as poor a situation. So it leaves the question what do you do with that trait if they’re given the functionality to relocate?

You scrap it? It’s already the worst trait we have, it moves our squishy spirits into harms way, the spirit actives are pretty stupid as well, because you need to move some fragile group utility buff into Melee range to utilize it, and everyone knows Melee is the most dangerous place to be if you’re squishy.

The active should’ve either been 1) not there and instead been a sort of “teleport to me!” Sort of ability 2) been ground target or 3) been a “get away from me!!” Ability that made enemies have to get away or literally FORCED them away.

Sorry, what I meant by what you do with it, is what do you replace it with. If a trait goes away something else has to take its place.

Well I’d assume that the “to me!” Spirit trait would have a CD to prevent it from being too strong IN combat, so maybe Spirits Unbound could say, reduce the CD on calling your spirit to your location and MAYBE the ICD could be reduced, or removed (assuming they keep the spirits function the same) but that may get tied to Natures Vengeance since it’s a GM trait and it’s current effect would be useless/gone.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Durzlla.6295:

Kal Spiro.9745:

jcbroe.4329:

Substance E.4852:

jcbroe.4329:

I have no suggestion on how to make either of those things happen without breaking something else though, which leaves me with only ever being able to confidently suggest boon punishment.

The most obvious and simplest is to split the game modes and give different functionality for different modes. In pvp, spirits can be nerfed to what ever level they feel appropriate and in pve/wvw they can either be made invulnerable like banners or into massive HP sponges so they can work in world bosses and zergs.

Ultimately though, that decision rests with Anet. Its not that they aren’t doing it because they can’t, it’s because they don’t want to and it’s really just a matter of how long before they realize that they are wrong. They had to do it the first time around because there were too many skills and combos breaking things and they will have to do it again because the game modes are too different for a unified rule set to apply equally in a way that is fun for everyone.

So many of our needed fixes (better pets, spirits that work like banners ect) just won’t ever happen to the degree they need to as long as they will break spvp.

Funny enough, I was just talking to Durz earlier how I think the ultimate goal for traits at this point should be obvious traits with obvious PvE or PvP roles. It was in regards to how basically purposeless Read the Wind is going to have in PvE, and that it is really a PvP/WvW driven change that has no effect on the other game mode.

The scope of that can be expanded to skills and utilities as well, I think.

Although with Spirits, I’m of the opinion that they should go back to being like guild wars 1 spirits, so that they have long ranges and can be placed out of combat, and the PvP counter to that is to force players to sacrifice their positioning to go deal with the spirit, while in PvE/WvW, they can sit out of harms way while still buffing you/teammates. Then, some way to move them instead of an active, like a spirit teleport or a “get up/plant” type function that makes them walk, and a whole new set of traits regarding the new spirits.

But at this point that’s probably me just dreaming haha.

There is definitely no real reason Spirits shouldn’t have similar functionality to Banners. Where Banners can be picked up and become an improvised weapon, Spirits have an active ability. But having the ability to make them somehow move locations would greatly, if not completely, remove the need for the trait to make them follow you. At the same time having to trait into being able to make them change locations is not better than just having them chase you around and is just as poor a situation. So it leaves the question what do you do with that trait if they’re given the functionality to relocate?

You scrap it? It’s already the worst trait we have, it moves our squishy spirits into harms way, the spirit actives are pretty stupid as well, because you need to move some fragile group utility buff into Melee range to utilize it, and everyone knows Melee is the most dangerous place to be if you’re squishy.

The active should’ve either been 1) not there and instead been a sort of “teleport to me!” Sort of ability 2) been ground target or 3) been a “get away from me!!” Ability that made enemies have to get away or literally FORCED them away.

Sorry, what I meant by what you do with it, is what do you replace it with. If a trait goes away something else has to take its place.

Not just Spirits Unbound would have to be removed, but Nature’s Vengeance would have to be changed/removed too.

So let’s setup the new spirits functionality. I’m not going to suggest specific functions because there are a million different things they could be, but beyond that: “Passive effect: buffs allies with a spirit based buff that triggers x effect every y seconds, or with a y second cooldown. 900 range.” “Active effect: Your spirits teleport to your current location. X second cooldown. 2000 range.”

Traits:

• “Spirits have 100% more health and a 20% cooldown reduction. This applies both to the summoning cooldown and the active cooldown.”

• “Summoning Spirits and Spirits actives are ground targeted. Increase the range of the spirits passives by 300.”

• “Spirits are invulnerable for a short time when you summon them, and when you use their active. Summoning a spirit creates an additional effect based on the spirit at its location (combo fields, damage that scales with power, etc), and the spirit active grants boons at your location based on the spirit (might, fury, etc).”

These are only a few ideas though. There are infinitely many ways to go about doing this, but you get the picture.

The second one would work on initial activation of Spirits and for teleporting your spirit?

Kal Spiro.9745:

The second one would work on initial activation of Spirits and for teleporting your spirit?

Yes, I’m going to edit that to make it more clear, thanks lol.

jcbroe.4329:

Substance E.4852:

jcbroe.4329:

I have no suggestion on how to make either of those things happen without breaking something else though, which leaves me with only ever being able to confidently suggest boon punishment.

The most obvious and simplest is to split the game modes and give different functionality for different modes. In pvp, spirits can be nerfed to what ever level they feel appropriate and in pve/wvw they can either be made invulnerable like banners or into massive HP sponges so they can work in world bosses and zergs.

Ultimately though, that decision rests with Anet. Its not that they aren’t doing it because they can’t, it’s because they don’t want to and it’s really just a matter of how long before they realize that they are wrong. They had to do it the first time around because there were too many skills and combos breaking things and they will have to do it again because the game modes are too different for a unified rule set to apply equally in a way that is fun for everyone.

So many of our needed fixes (better pets, spirits that work like banners ect) just won’t ever happen to the degree they need to as long as they will break spvp.

Funny enough, I was just talking to Durz earlier how I think the ultimate goal for traits at this point should be obvious traits with obvious PvE or PvP roles. It was in regards to how basically purposeless Read the Wind is going to have in PvE, and that it is really a PvP/WvW driven change that has no effect on the other game mode.

The scope of that can be expanded to skills and utilities as well, I think.

Although with Spirits, I’m of the opinion that they should go back to being like guild wars 1 spirits, so that they have long ranges and can be placed out of combat, and the PvP counter to that is to force players to sacrifice their positioning to go deal with the spirit, while in PvE/WvW, they can sit out of harms way while still buffing you/teammates. Then, some way to move them instead of an active, like a spirit teleport or a “get up/plant” type function that makes them walk, and a whole new set of traits regarding the new spirits.

But at this point that’s probably me just dreaming haha.

I think we’d definitely have to give up the active effects to get larger, GW1 style , ranges though. The biggest counter to GW1 spirits was the spirits themselves more than anything. Everyone would bring things like fertile season 100% of the time if it only affected your allies or primal echos if it only affected foes.

just make spirits into invulnerable wisps that orbit the ranger and enchant arrows passively. actives should give us ranged combo fields. banners with style. i suggested this in CDI, id praise anet forever if it was implemented.

Kal Spiro.9745:

There is definitely no real reason Spirits shouldn’t have similar functionality to Banners. Where Banners can be picked up and become an improvised weapon, Spirits have an active ability. But having the ability to make them somehow move locations would greatly, if not completely, remove the need for the trait to make them follow you. At the same time having to trait into being able to make them change locations is not better than just having them chase you around and is just as poor a situation. So it leaves the question what do you do with that trait if they’re given the functionality to relocate?

I’d change the trait into something which increases the spirit passive radius (1000) to 2000 or 2500. Maybe even double the number of people it can buff.

The GW1 spirits were strategic weapons – kinda like altering the terrain where combat was happening (thus my rationale for making it affect more people). It added a brilliant strategic wrinkle to what was otherwise completely tactical combat. I remember a couple fights where we repeatedly killed each others’ spirits because we were matched closely enough tactically that the spirits would tip the balance one way or the other.

Whoever designed the GW2 spirits seems not to understand this, and treats them like AOE buffs. An AOE buff (like a banner or a shout) is limited in range, but guaranteed to be applied. A spirit is massive in range, but the opponent has the option to take the time to remove its effect from the battlefield.

Here’s what the different ranges looked like in GW1:
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060218065755/gw_/images/a/a2/RadarRanges.jpg

GW2 banner range would be about the same as the purple (in the area/location).

GW2 spirit passive range is a bit less than double the purple (600 vs 1000), which is why they die so frequently. In GW1, the range was big enough that the opponent had to make a conscious decision to target the spirit to remove its effect. In GW2 they get taken out by incidental AOEs.

The larger range also acts as a counter to the higher DPS of melee. If you are melee, yes you have better DPS. But fight a bow ranger who dropped a spirit far away and you’ll have to fight him on his terms (i.e. live with the spirit’s effect since it’ll take you too much time to run to the spirit to kill it with melee, then run back to the ranger). Ranged attackers have less DPS, but they have the option to easily remove the spirit’s effect.

The variety of GW1 spirit effects were a lot more creative too. The GW2 spirit passives just apply damage, heal, or give a buff. The GW1 spirits altered game mechanics like arrow speed, recharge times, condition durations, prohibited resurrection, converted physical damage to elemental, etc. Can you imagine how game-changing it would be if there were a spirit which e.g. caused all condition-causing spells to take twice as long to channel?
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Nature_ritual

jcbroe.4329:

Substance E.4852:

jcbroe.4329:

I have no suggestion on how to make either of those things happen without breaking something else though, which leaves me with only ever being able to confidently suggest boon punishment.

The most obvious and simplest is to split the game modes and give different functionality for different modes. In pvp, spirits can be nerfed to what ever level they feel appropriate and in pve/wvw they can either be made invulnerable like banners or into massive HP sponges so they can work in world bosses and zergs.

Ultimately though, that decision rests with Anet. Its not that they aren’t doing it because they can’t, it’s because they don’t want to and it’s really just a matter of how long before they realize that they are wrong. They had to do it the first time around because there were too many skills and combos breaking things and they will have to do it again because the game modes are too different for a unified rule set to apply equally in a way that is fun for everyone.

So many of our needed fixes (better pets, spirits that work like banners ect) just won’t ever happen to the degree they need to as long as they will break spvp.

Funny enough, I was just talking to Durz earlier how I think the ultimate goal for traits at this point should be obvious traits with obvious PvE or PvP roles. It was in regards to how basically purposeless Read the Wind is going to have in PvE, and that it is really a PvP/WvW driven change that has no effect on the other game mode.

The scope of that can be expanded to skills and utilities as well, I think.

Although with Spirits, I’m of the opinion that they should go back to being like guild wars 1 spirits, so that they have long ranges and can be placed out of combat, and the PvP counter to that is to force players to sacrifice their positioning to go deal with the spirit, while in PvE/WvW, they can sit out of harms way while still buffing you/teammates. Then, some way to move them instead of an active, like a spirit teleport or a “get up/plant” type function that makes them walk, and a whole new set of traits regarding the new spirits.

But at this point that’s probably me just dreaming haha.

Well I would be joining you in that JC. I don’t understand why ANet changed spirits in here to have such short coverage of play. I see what you’re trying to say there, tactical wise it would create such a big change if they do have bigger radius. Similar to how Ritualists HA works, you’re probably familiar with that gameplay. I like it and at the same time its such a tactical approach that I think would make some player’s rage in this game.

ANet’s motto right now is to make PVP as simple as possible for watchers to understand even if they don’t play the game. Ranger spirits are universal back then in GW1, that’s why in some tourny or most of the tourny they are always in team comps.

I ran Ritualist support for my Team in HA when I wasn’t running R/E Magebane snare hahaha, so yes, I absolutely miss that style of play and those tactics.

Rangers in this game have the perfect tools to make use of decently ranged spirits, since we have so many leaps and evade backs. We can leap out of a fight, summon a spirit out of harms way that could buff the whole team, and then back into the fray.

The competitive aspect of it is that going up against it, it would be like “where is all this burning/bleed coming from, or how do they all have protection/regen right now? It must a spirit. We need our roamer to go take care of it.”

In that moment the roamer leaves the fight to go take care of the spirit, it creates just enough of a window of opportunity where it allows the team running spirits to possibly push a few kills and win the teamfight, or gain the advantage, because the other team lost a part of their damage for just enough time to give the spirit team the upper hand.

jcbroe.4329:

I ran Ritualist support for my Team in HA when I wasn’t running R/E Magebane snare hahaha, so yes, I absolutely miss that style of play and those tactics.

Rangers in this game have the perfect tools to make use of decently ranged spirits, since we have so many leaps and evade backs. We can leap out of a fight, summon a spirit out of harms way that could buff the whole team, and then back into the fray.

The competitive aspect of it is that going up against it, it would be like “where is all this burning/bleed coming from, or how do they all have protection/regen right now? It must a spirit. We need our roamer to go take care of it.”

In that moment the roamer leaves the fight to go take care of the spirit, it creates just enough of a window of opportunity where it allows the team running spirits to possibly push a few kills and win the teamfight, or gain the advantage, because the other team lost a part of their damage for just enough time to give the spirit team the upper hand.

I really wish ANet look into this more, just by adding more range to the spirits would make them very viable in 1 or 2 types of game modes in game. (wvw/pvp) Where is the people’s champ at? Allie!!!

AEFA.9035:

jcbroe.4329:

I ran Ritualist support for my Team in HA when I wasn’t running R/E Magebane snare hahaha, so yes, I absolutely miss that style of play and those tactics.

Rangers in this game have the perfect tools to make use of decently ranged spirits, since we have so many leaps and evade backs. We can leap out of a fight, summon a spirit out of harms way that could buff the whole team, and then back into the fray.

The competitive aspect of it is that going up against it, it would be like “where is all this burning/bleed coming from, or how do they all have protection/regen right now? It must a spirit. We need our roamer to go take care of it.”

In that moment the roamer leaves the fight to go take care of the spirit, it creates just enough of a window of opportunity where it allows the team running spirits to possibly push a few kills and win the teamfight, or gain the advantage, because the other team lost a part of their damage for just enough time to give the spirit team the upper hand.

I really wish ANet look into this more, just by adding more range to the spirits would make them very viable in 1 or 2 types of game modes in game. (wvw/pvp) Where is the people’s champ at? Allie!!!

It’s important to remember though that our spirits only affect allies just as the ritualist spirits only affected one side. They paid for this by having to sac life each time the spirit proced it’s effect or having short durations with large energy costs.

If we wanted the same, allies only, large radius, spirits that the ritualist had, we’ll have to pay for it somehow.

I mean, I’d love to have the Ranger spirits from GW1 but there’s no way I’d bring a buff spirit into WvW that also affected the enemy zerg. Maybe the old Edge of Extinction spirit though. That would be fun as hell for a short while.

it doesn’t change ranger on WvW…. because wvw ranger usually takes piercing arrow and eagles eye.

Nektera.9425:

it doesn’t change ranger on WvW…. because wvw ranger usually takes piercing arrow and eagles eye.

depends, i switch the traits as i see fit

Piercing + SotBM when running with the zerg or to the zerg. Eagle Eye + Piercing when i am going to pick off enemies in the backlines.

Power LB is not requiring any of these traits. Even without piercing, eagle eye or signet of the beastmaster. It will still be incredibly strong either way.

Can’t wait for a new GM Trait what makes our only stealth being applied to the pets too, so we won’t be easyly tracked in that pathetic 3 seconds -.-’

jcbroe.4329:

…In Guild Wars 1, bow rangers did most of their damage through conditions like poison, bleeding, and burning. The few builds that were more centered around direct damage didn’t have “instant bonus damage,” but made bows into more “turret” like builds, which could achieve a high output of constant damage, but that damage in Guild Wars 1 would have been considered a pressure/spike assist build, and not a spike build…

…Is it perfect in Guild Wars 2? No, but the ranger class as seen be ANet has never been a high damage 1 shot sniper.

Just a history lesson to end the bickering.

My Ranger Spike build from GW1 on the Master of Damage on the Isle of the Nameless. I think you will see that the 1 shot sniper build is certainly possible with Ranger in GW1, this damage is with a +1 marksmanship grip, you should see the damage I get if I get a monk to buff me with judges insight and use a +20% vs Undead grip on Undead foes in FoW. Usually got a monk friend to buff me with Judges Insight and Great Dwarf Weapon and we would duo the FoW battlegrounds for shards. You could kill stuff from outside range and never get aggro.

Oh, and btw, Ranger was one of two classes (other being assassin) that could complete the FoW solo.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

jcbroe.4329:

…In Guild Wars 1, bow rangers did most of their damage through conditions like poison, bleeding, and burning. The few builds that were more centered around direct damage didn’t have “instant bonus damage,” but made bows into more “turret” like builds, which could achieve a high output of constant damage, but that damage in Guild Wars 1 would have been considered a pressure/spike assist build, and not a spike build…

…Is it perfect in Guild Wars 2? No, but the ranger class as seen be ANet has never been a high damage 1 shot sniper.

Just a history lesson to end the bickering.

My Ranger Spike build from GW1 on the Master of Damage on the Isle of the Nameless. I think you will see that the 1 shot sniper build is certainly possible with Ranger in GW1, this damage is with a +1 marksmanship grip, you should see the damage I get if I get a monk to buff me with judges insight and use a +20% vs Undead grip on Undead foes in FoW. Usually got a monk friend to buff me with Judges Insight and Great Dwarf Weapon and we would duo the FoW battlegrounds for shards. You could kill stuff from outside range and never get aggro.

Oh, and btw, Ranger was one of two classes (other being assassin) that could complete the FoW solo.

What build was this because I have never, ever heard of ANY class hitting for that much in a single hit. That’s literally enough to down a person in 1 hit with a dervish coming in first place with a maximum of 635 health.

The Master of the Nameless has 680 health so yeah, it kills him in 1s. Technically its not a 1 shot and you cannot use it in PvP as it contains broken PvE skills.

But less than 1 second is close enough to a 1 shot in my book

I just logged on to GW1, first time since forever, it was something like;

Favorable Winds
“I am the Strongest”
Glass Arrows
Ebon Battle Standard
Triple Shot
Savage Shot
16 Marksmanship
15 Expertise
Hornbow with 20/20 and +1 Marks 20%

For FoW I used;
All the +1 cons
A full con set
Birthday Cupcake

So its not like you can repeat it over and over, you need a big setup, then, BAM! SPIKED! Then you have to setup for the next one.

The Mo/P with 16 in Smiting for Judges Insight was great for the extra 20% AP and Holy damage, plus Great Dwarf Weapon is 40% chance to Knock Down and +20 dmg, Succour also for the +1 energy regen. Also with 12 in Command for movement buffs to get us around.

Was just a fun build for FoW where you could snipe everything. Or Shards of Orr.

The point I was trying to make though, is that spike dmg has ALWAYS been a part of the ranger. RSpike had to be continually nerfed because it was so effective, (dont even get me started on 50 copies of Favorable Winds in back-in-the-day HoH, rangers one shotting players haha) I always played spike ranger in PvE whether that was Splinter barrage or Holy Damage for Undead (FoW Book trick or Duo with monk). Or just for fun, repeat the Undead Hordes quest in Beetletun solo and just never take the reward. Or Duo trapping the Underworld, that’s spike also, even though its applying conditions at the same time.

My standard bar was [ OgcSc5MTnSOG5WqGwGzk5irg ] in case anyone still plays GW1. That’s Sundering Attack, Penetrating Attack, Prepared Shot, Savage Shot, Read the Wind, “I am the Strongest”, EBSOH, Shadow Sanctuary. You could just cycle the 1st three skills forever hitting everything in the game for 150+ dmg per shot and the CDs go 4s, 4s, 6s. That is sustained spike.

There were only certain occasions that I even used conditions as, lets face it, they just take too long to kill things. You can shoot something with an arrow to make it bleed, then poison it and kite around waiting for it to die, but you can also just shoot it in the head and kill it. A master archer can certainly shoot with extreme precision.

Maybe they should make RtW give +XX% crit dmg also.

Sorry for such along post.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

The Master of the Nameless has 680 health so yeah, it kills him in 1s. Technically its not a 1 shot and you cannot use it in PvP as it contains broken PvE skills.

But less than 1 second is close enough to a 1 shot in my book

I just logged on to GW1, first time since forever, it was something like;

Favorable Winds
“I am the Strongest”
Glass Arrows
Ebon Battle Standard
Triple Shot
Savage Shot
16 Marksmanship
15 Expertise
Hornbow with 20/20 and +1 Marks 20%

For FoW I used;
All the +1 cons
A full con set
Birthday Cupcake

So its not like you can repeat it over and over, you need a big setup, then, BAM! SPIKED! Then you have to setup for the next one.

The Mo/P with 16 in Smiting for Judges Insight was great for the extra 20% AP and Holy damage, plus Great Dwarf Weapon is 40% chance to Knock Down and +20 dmg, Succour also for the +1 energy regen. Also with 12 in Command for movement buffs to get us around.

Was just a fun build for FoW where you could snipe everything. Or Shards of Orr.

The point I was trying to make though, is that spike dmg has ALWAYS been a part of the ranger. RSpike had to be continually nerfed because it was so effective, (dont even get me started on 50 copies of Favorable Winds in back-in-the-day HoH, rangers one shotting players haha) I always played spike ranger in PvE whether that was Splinter barrage or Holy Damage for Undead (FoW Book trick or Duo with monk). Or just for fun, repeat the Undead Hordes quest in Beetletun solo and just never take the reward. Or Duo trapping the Underworld, that’s spike also, even though its applying conditions at the same time.

My standard bar was [ OgcSc5MTnSOG5WqGwGzk5irg ] in case anyone still plays GW1. That’s Sundering Attack, Penetrating Attack, Prepared Shot, Savage Shot, Read the Wind, “I am the Strongest”, EBSOH, Shadow Sanctuary. You could just cycle the 1st three skills forever hitting everything in the game for 150+ dmg per shot and the CDs go 4s, 4s, 6s. That is sustained spike.

There were only certain occasions that I even used conditions as, lets face it, they just take too long to kill things. You can shoot something with an arrow to make it bleed, then poison it and kite around waiting for it to die, but you can also just shoot it in the head and kill it. A master archer can certainly shoot with extreme precision.

Maybe they should make RtW give +XX% crit dmg also.

Sorry for such along post.

was thinking you would have point blank shot in there. but good build, it has to be glass arrows for sure.

The “Standard Bar” build above that I listed also works really well with Point Blank Shot and Zojun’s Shot as subs for Sundering/Penetrating Attack as the animations and recharge allow you to just spam one then the other. It just gets you too close to “snipe”. When Asuran scan still gave the +big% dmg to attacks, I ran with PBS and ZS for most gameplay.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

The Master of the Nameless has 680 health so yeah, it kills him in 1s. Technically its not a 1 shot and you cannot use it in PvP as it contains broken PvE skills.

But less than 1 second is close enough to a 1 shot in my book

I just logged on to GW1, first time since forever, it was something like;

Favorable Winds
“I am the Strongest”
Glass Arrows
Ebon Battle Standard
Triple Shot
Savage Shot
16 Marksmanship
15 Expertise
Hornbow with 20/20 and +1 Marks 20%

For FoW I used;
All the +1 cons
A full con set
Birthday Cupcake

So its not like you can repeat it over and over, you need a big setup, then, BAM! SPIKED! Then you have to setup for the next one.

The Mo/P with 16 in Smiting for Judges Insight was great for the extra 20% AP and Holy damage, plus Great Dwarf Weapon is 40% chance to Knock Down and +20 dmg, Succour also for the +1 energy regen. Also with 12 in Command for movement buffs to get us around.

Was just a fun build for FoW where you could snipe everything. Or Shards of Orr.

The point I was trying to make though, is that spike dmg has ALWAYS been a part of the ranger. RSpike had to be continually nerfed because it was so effective, (dont even get me started on 50 copies of Favorable Winds in back-in-the-day HoH, rangers one shotting players haha) I always played spike ranger in PvE whether that was Splinter barrage or Holy Damage for Undead (FoW Book trick or Duo with monk). Or just for fun, repeat the Undead Hordes quest in Beetletun solo and just never take the reward. Or Duo trapping the Underworld, that’s spike also, even though its applying conditions at the same time.

My standard bar was [ OgcSc5MTnSOG5WqGwGzk5irg ] in case anyone still plays GW1. That’s Sundering Attack, Penetrating Attack, Prepared Shot, Savage Shot, Read the Wind, “I am the Strongest”, EBSOH, Shadow Sanctuary. You could just cycle the 1st three skills forever hitting everything in the game for 150+ dmg per shot and the CDs go 4s, 4s, 6s. That is sustained spike.

There were only certain occasions that I even used conditions as, lets face it, they just take too long to kill things. You can shoot something with an arrow to make it bleed, then poison it and kite around waiting for it to die, but you can also just shoot it in the head and kill it. A master archer can certainly shoot with extreme precision.

Maybe they should make RtW give +XX% crit dmg also.

Sorry for such along post.

lol I had completely forgotten about those insane PvE only skills.

I added my Karka spike build to my signature for those interested.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

I added my Karka spike build to my signature for those interested.

post that up in here if its power build

A/A Karka Spike -

Vid: http://tinyurl.com/obll2kp

Build: http://tinyurl.com/k2hfxge

Oh, yah, its all zerker. Pretty well works on anything, but Karka are especially tough so I like to use them as an example.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

A/A Karka Spike -

Vid: http://tinyurl.com/obll2kp

Build: http://tinyurl.com/k2hfxge

Oh, yah, its all zerker. Pretty well works on anything, but Karka are especially tough so I like to use them as an example.

LOL! OP.

It’s only an “exploit” of a design flaw. He will not pwn the game with it.
And if he will, then we’ll get a nice nerf that destroys mutch more than intended…….!!

I don’t think its an “exploit” nor a design flaw. That’s like saying a zerker war with 25 might, 25 bloodlust, frenzy, fury and 100b is exploiting the game or a design flaw because he can kill vets in a few seconds.

You can do some serious damage with that axe setup, anything that can be interrupted can be killed like that. It is very situational though, you can’t spam it and you need to stay in a straight line to the mob, or the axe will not hit them multiple times.

GW2 doesn’t necessarily reward well organised, deliberately formed team compositions/builds like GW1 did, which is the reason spirits could be so interesting and varied in the first place. You made the decision to have Quickening Zephyr, or Energizing Wind, and you made sure the effect was more damaging to the enemy team than to your own. In GW2, you don’t always get that decision, you are in WvW with random players who will use every skill on their bar before they take the time to read what they do etc. Not to mention the fact that you have far more people on a screen at any time, so focusing and destroying a spirit that is crippling you is that much harder, and in many cases it’ll probably be hidden behind a gate where you can’t even reach it.

It’s not the same playing field at all, so it would really be a challenge to transfer the same spirits from the original to GW2. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t want it, cause I’d absolutely love it, though from a developers standpoint I can understand why they tried to reduce their effectiveness.

Quite why they thought making spirits follow you was a good idea is beyond me though. Teleporting them to new locations or being able to manually destroy them/restart the cooldown on the skill is a much more efficient way of making sure they are having an impact on fights.

The active effects too are just pointless, I mean really really useless, and I’d like to hear ANet’s argument on why they wanted to push this unnecessary active coefficient to a skill that was primarily interesting due to its passive benefits and positioning strategy.

As GW2Devs reduced the damage by changing the critical-multiplier, even they state its not meant to be like this. Even if you’re not likely to keep up all the buffs all the time.
However, as offical videos stated, would be nice to 1-2 shot kill trashmobs instead of rapidfire """burst""" a simple Doe. I’ts quite pathetic IMO.

I’ve made tests. “Read the Wind” would be okay with +"Eagle Eye". Reasonable, Logical!
Otherwise, it keeps up with a single bugfix.

RoyalPredator.9163:

I’ve made tests. “Read the Wind” would be okay with +"Eagle Eye". Reasonable, Logical!
Otherwise, it keeps up with a single bugfix.

how exactly did you test this?

Calculations + video-capture timewrap to see exactly what I see in my mind.