Guild Wars 2

Since people are hellbent on derailing my other thread, i will make this thread to discuss pet DPS, actual DPS.

I will stick with Felines as they are one of our hardest hitting pets, and also because spiders (my initial calculation subject) does not have its skill coefficiencies posted anywhere, making it excessively hard to make accurate calculations.

The Feline Auto Attack, known as http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Slash_feline is what we will be using for the calculations done in this thread.

Basic stats (for those to lazy to click the link) provided by Wiki:

The Feline Slash “Auto Attack” has the following data.
Slash at your foe, leaving them vulnerable.

Damage: 85 (.35)?
Vulnerability: 5 s
Range: 130

Feline pets has the following stats:
Power: 1374
Precision: 2061
Toughness: 1374
Vitality: 2061

Slash has a 0.5 second cast time with about 0.25-0.5 second after cast (after cast time is from a footage i made ingame with pet just attacking golems, i can not get any more accurate data then that without Anet or some data diggers supplying it)
So in total, to an immobile target, pet auto attack is 1 attack every 1 second at worst case.
Following ArenaNet’s own calculation methods, pet skill damage use its own weapon strength but follow the same principles as normal skills does. Therefore the raw pet damage uses the following formulae:

Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

We will calculate with heavy golem armor in mind, 2600.
[Url=Pet Weapon Strength]https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Pet-Damage-Formula-found[/url]
After double checking those calculations, i found them to still be relevant today. So we will assume that arena net has NOT tampered with this value and then move on to calculate the pet Weapon Strength as 3000.

The total damage done is as following:
Damage = 3000 * 1374 * 0.35 / 2600
Damage = 554.88
Ingame Tooltip reads: 613
Now, this may be because the ingame tooltip is broken and does not calculate by pet power, but from MY power.

So. if base pet does ~555 damage (reasonable) to a heavy golem, we will then have to calculate their actual DPS

Now. the felines stack vulnerability on each attack. This vulnerability lasts 5 seconds pr stack, so at most, pets can maintain (on their own) 5 stacks of vulnerability if the enemy has 0% condition duration reduction.

So following this, pets will deal 555 × 5% = 555 × 5 / 100 = 27.75 damage more/hit.

Total UNTRAITED RAW DPS with zero crits is 582.75 / one second.

Now we have to go a bit into depth.
Pet precision is 2061. This translates to Critical Chance = (2061 – 822) / 21 = 59% chance

This means that in in the world of “statistics” you have a critical hit 5.9 times in 10 strikes. But this is wrong. Because each individual hit has 59% chance to hit for critical damage and 41% for normal damage. This means that we will go by a handy little chart found on the wiki. This chart shows us that we have to round up to 60% chance and 50% damage. This lands us at 60% more damage over time.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit#Average_damage_increase

Basic Damage = 582.75
Average pet DPS over time = 1.6 * base damage = 932.4

That is a extremely primitive way of finding an average, but it is as accurate as we need it to be.

Now. for the moment everyone has been waiting for. How much damage does my pet do if we use frostspotter with might stacking?

For the pet calculations we will use the following build;
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fNAQJBMhJ4wag9gadAEwRA3MoD8tFTIF-TJBBwAVeAAAOBA12focZAA

With this build, the pet will have an average of 16 stacks of might and a high fury uptime. One stack of might = 35 strength. 16 stacks = 35×16 = 560 power

Our feline friend will now have the following stats:
Power: 1934
Precision: 2211 (66%)
Toughness: 1554
Vitality: 2061
Critical Damage = 180%

That means that the pet damage is as following (lets fast forward the details):
Base Damage: 781.038
Average DPS factoring in critical damage and chance: 1.845 * 781.038 = 1441.015

Now. Pure BM bunker DPS (02606) without factoring for rendering strikes.
Pet stats:
Power 1674
Precision: 2361 (73%)
Toughness: 1674
Vitality: 2361

Base damage: 676.038
Average DPS over time: 1.975 (rounded up to 75%) * 676.038 = 1335.17

Factoring a max Pet + ranger DPS build
Zerk gear, Traits: 44033 (malicious, spotter, pets prowess, companions might)
Ranger crit chance on this build is slightly lower, so i will reduce average might stacks to 14 to account for this loss of precision.

Pet stats:
Power: 1524 + 14*35 = 2014
Precision: 2211 + 150 = 2361 (73%)
Toughness: 1524
Vitality: 2211

Base damage: 813.34
Average DPS over time: 1.945 * 813.34 = 1581.94
Factoring max pet vuln stack uptime (7): 1581.94 + 7% = 1692.67

And thats it. Pet DPS calculated.

Awesome, good to finally have some math for the pet that seems well researched. Do you know if the pet has any ferocity/crit damage? Or do we assume the base (base uses the 0 column I believe which is why I ask)?

I would assume they have base crit damage of 150%, with the possibility to reach 180% with traits.

If we factor on the damage done by sword auto, and the rangers ability to maintain a minimum of 7 stacks of might on itself.
Sword auto DPS + Pet DPS = 3412.53 damage/second over time

I will note that arenanets table for Crit damage vs crit chance damage enhancement is based of damage done OVER TIME. Not instantly. As instantaneous hits can reach far beyond such numbers.

Point in case; ingame (PvP) my pet is hitting for constant 1.2-3.9k crits (slash and bite rotation) while my sword hits constant 1000-1400 damage.

the “average DPS” is just that. It is the average number you will produce over time.

IF we bring Sic’em, which has roughly 50% uptime. or if you use shout master for the BM adept. that means you can get it up to 64% uptime. That means you get roughly 20%-30% more damage per sec for you pet Wich is a LOT.

If we factor in these things. pet DPS becomes
1692.67 * 30% = 2200.471

I have yet to do calculations for the full pet DPS rotation. I expect to have that done within 2-3 hours

EDIT: Pets do have a base critical damage of 150%. With Pet’s Prowess they can reach 180%.

With a warrior banner nearby they can reach slightly higher then that too capping at 191.33% critical damage.

http://www.twitch.tv/prysin/profile/pastBroadcasts

Pet DPS test should be up shortly. Once it is up for VoD, you can see me test the DPS against a heavy golem in PvP with the 44033 build.

Yes i can stack more then 14 stacks of might with that build too, but to be realistic, i kept the might stack lower then it should be to provide a more reasonable average value over a potential max value.

Prysin, be sure to adjust for the correct crit dmg by using the 0 column as base. It will throw off your numbers some. The table already considers base crit.

Your number seems a bit screwy, I think because of the cast time. When I tested it I was getting an average rate of 1 attack per 1.2 seconds on Feline. Divide your number by 1.2 and you get about 1400 which is closer to what I was getting in own estimates.

Either way both are estimates so I’m not going to quibble over a 20% difference especially when pet DPS is already as low as it is.

Atherakhia.4086:

Prysin, be sure to adjust for the correct crit dmg by using the 0 column as base. It will throw off your numbers some. The table already considers base crit.

You may be right. But i realised something else. Pet crits much more often then you’d think. Which can be seen in my video.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Your number seems a bit screwy, I think because of the cast time. When I tested it I was getting an average rate of 1 attack per 1.2 seconds on Feline. Divide your number by 1.2 and you get about 1400 which is closer to what I was getting in own estimates.

Either way both are estimates so I’m not going to quibble over a 20% difference especially when pet DPS is already as low as it is.

But that is in addition to our own DPS. Now i know that sword CAN compete with most of the best DPS professions. Although it is considerably weaker. However i need to see proper DPS rotations for other professions to make a good comparison.

All of those are on non-moving targets. The golems can’t kite the pets or throw slowing conditions on them, evade etc. The numbers for a moving target or something with a brain would be significantly different.

Atherakhia is correct, you’ve used the crit table incorrectly.

So at this point:

“Average pet DPS over time = 1.6 * base damage = 932.4” it should actually be 1.3, not 1.6.

And later with the traits and whatnot, the

“Average DPS factoring in critical damage and chance: 1.845 * 781.038 = 1441.015” should be 1.52, not 1.845.

Generally an interesting read though. I’ll admit to not paying much attention to numbers when it comes to build designing, because they only take you so far. I know you already know this but it’s worth saying anyway, the pets weakness is not its DPS, it’s that it’s too easy to mitigate the pet. The most extreme cases are Sword thieves and Staff mesmers.. where really your pet would be lucky to land more than a few hits in the entire fight, but even against more typical opponents it’s still too easy to avoid pets, hense my suggestion on your other thread to just remove Pet AAs altogether and make any damage they do do through special attacks be more “fast and hard” style like phantasms, because that works much better.

EDIT: I realise now I am bordering on derailing this thread back onto the topic the other thread is covering (ironic as it is, since this thread was created to stop that one being derailed), but you can’t really have one discussion without the other :p

warriorjrd.8695:

All of those are on non-moving targets. The golems can’t kite the pets or throw slowing conditions on them, evade etc. The numbers for a moving target or something with a brain would be significantly different.

That also boils down to the ranger player too. A good ranger that wants to hit for the most DPS will CC that enemy to death.
If you do not help your pet hit, you are a crappy player. When you want to F2 something, you CC first, so the F2 lands.

But yeah, i think that the most reliable DPS will come from spiders. They have a strong ranged attack that will hit hard, often.

warriorjrd.8695:

All of those are on non-moving targets. The golems can’t kite the pets or throw slowing conditions on them, evade etc. The numbers for a moving target or something with a brain would be significantly different.

Theorycraft on non moving targets is still very applicable to PvE environments, since bosses generally don’t move outside of maybe a few fractal bosses.

Prysin.8542:

Atherakhia.4086:

Prysin, be sure to adjust for the correct crit dmg by using the 0 column as base. It will throw off your numbers some. The table already considers base crit.

You may be right. But i realised something else. Pet crits much more often then you’d think. Which can be seen in my video.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Your number seems a bit screwy, I think because of the cast time. When I tested it I was getting an average rate of 1 attack per 1.2 seconds on Feline. Divide your number by 1.2 and you get about 1400 which is closer to what I was getting in own estimates.

Either way both are estimates so I’m not going to quibble over a 20% difference especially when pet DPS is already as low as it is.

But that is in addition to our own DPS. Now i know that sword CAN compete with most of the best DPS professions. Although it is considerably weaker. However i need to see proper DPS rotations for other professions to make a good comparison.

I like how you say it can “compete” then immediately say it’s “considerably weaker”.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Prysin.8542:

Atherakhia.4086:

Prysin, be sure to adjust for the correct crit dmg by using the 0 column as base. It will throw off your numbers some. The table already considers base crit.

You may be right. But i realised something else. Pet crits much more often then you’d think. Which can be seen in my video.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Your number seems a bit screwy, I think because of the cast time. When I tested it I was getting an average rate of 1 attack per 1.2 seconds on Feline. Divide your number by 1.2 and you get about 1400 which is closer to what I was getting in own estimates.

Either way both are estimates so I’m not going to quibble over a 20% difference especially when pet DPS is already as low as it is.

But that is in addition to our own DPS. Now i know that sword CAN compete with most of the best DPS professions. Although it is considerably weaker. However i need to see proper DPS rotations for other professions to make a good comparison.

I like how you say it can “compete” then immediately say it’s “considerably weaker”.

Don’t dig that guy up, you will only find bunch of noob, l2p and pet words, also the pain (http://youtu.be/M9rs3bMYA9c?t=21s).

Well, pet DPS can only be relevant in PvE. In PvP you need effective damage, which cats are terrible at. Dogs and birds would have more effective damage as far as melee pets go.

Out of topic perhaps… I have been dueling in obsidian sanctum for the last few days with different builds. It is scary how we have fallen in our 1v1 performance. There are builds of other classes which we simply cannot touch.

SD and PD thief, PU mesmer, Might stacking Ele be it DD or fresh air. Its sad, simply sad.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Prysin.8542:

Atherakhia.4086:

Prysin, be sure to adjust for the correct crit dmg by using the 0 column as base. It will throw off your numbers some. The table already considers base crit.

You may be right. But i realised something else. Pet crits much more often then you’d think. Which can be seen in my video.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Your number seems a bit screwy, I think because of the cast time. When I tested it I was getting an average rate of 1 attack per 1.2 seconds on Feline. Divide your number by 1.2 and you get about 1400 which is closer to what I was getting in own estimates.

Either way both are estimates so I’m not going to quibble over a 20% difference especially when pet DPS is already as low as it is.

But that is in addition to our own DPS. Now i know that sword CAN compete with most of the best DPS professions. Although it is considerably weaker. However i need to see proper DPS rotations for other professions to make a good comparison.

I like how you say it can “compete” then immediately say it’s “considerably weaker”.

Sorry for not explaining it in a more understandable way for you, yes Sword DPS alone is able to compete, but it will not WIN. It is not the best DPS you can get. But 90% of DPS studies done on ranger is just that. Sword DPS vs others DPS. People does not bother with pets. Which is a considerable chunk of our damage by far. So, pet + Sword, that is something you need to look at. Now, i realized i used the wrong numbers with pets earlier, but that goes for critical chance too.
All pet crit chance should have factored in very high fury uptime (which is easy for us to get)

So, if i calculate for this. Our new ratios become:
Base; 1.475
BM; 1.760
My optimized build: 1.760

So ya, it will be less, just not that much less.

Well that’s why you control for common variables. Once you remove things like might, vuln, and fury which are shared between everyone anyway you’re left with the much more realistic figure of 800 dps. 816,8ish. About 100 less without the crit dmg trait.

From that number it’s easy to say well the Ranger would have X stacks of might for Y% of a fight. Pet would have ~4 more on average. Everyone would have fury etc etc.

well, i am only accounting for what the ranger brings on its own. If you are going to do calculations, then you must consider your own maximum potential before looking into what you may or may not get from others. However, yes, i agree that you could also look at base damage without might stacks and it would be a fair comparison too, just not very valid in terms of how it is ingame.
its like saying, i could deal this much damage with my sword, but i left it with a blunt edge, just to be sure i didn’t account for something i may or may not achieve.

But yes, pet DPS is imperfect, if anything, they may need a slight increase, or rather, i think their stats should be revised completely. As certain pets should function otherwise.

Like, why does my spider and devourer who obviously have poison attacks, not have atleast SOME condition damage as base stat? Why does my moa’s have 0 boon duration when boons is what they are good at?
Why does my Canines have 0 condition duration when they specialize in AOE conditions.

However, if i compare ranger DPS and warrior DPS, ranger stays ahead marginally. But if we add in conditions, warrior wins.

Just IMO but I’ve always found birds to be the most reliable for consistent damage. They don’t appear to be as clunky as pets that are bound to earth and seem to be able to more effectively land attacks on moving targets. That and they also hit about as hard as felines do.
I personally like to use the raven because we don’t have much access to blinds.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Just IMO but I’ve always found birds to be the most reliable for consistent damage. They don’t appear to be as clunky as pets that are bound to earth and seem to be able to more effectively land attacks on moving targets. That and they also hit about as hard as felines do.
I personally like to use the raven because we don’t have much access to blinds.

They’re just as bound to earth as every other pet. They even take fall damage.

Killsmith.8169:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Just IMO but I’ve always found birds to be the most reliable for consistent damage. They don’t appear to be as clunky as pets that are bound to earth and seem to be able to more effectively land attacks on moving targets. That and they also hit about as hard as felines do.
I personally like to use the raven because we don’t have much access to blinds.

They’re just as bound to earth as every other pet. They even take fall damage.

that and the fact that their swiftness buff and the aftercast on their attacks means that they usually deal damage 60% slower then cats. Which means their DPS, despite being a strong burst pet, is a poor DPS pet.

Killsmith.8169:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Just IMO but I’ve always found birds to be the most reliable for consistent damage. They don’t appear to be as clunky as pets that are bound to earth and seem to be able to more effectively land attacks on moving targets. That and they also hit about as hard as felines do.
I personally like to use the raven because we don’t have much access to blinds.

They’re just as bound to earth as every other pet. They even take fall damage.

Yes but as he said, they don’t have as much of an issue with hitting a moving target, which can, in some fights, result in more DPS.

Prysin.8542:

well, i am only accounting for what the ranger brings on its own. If you are going to do calculations, then you must consider your own maximum potential before looking into what you may or may not get from others. However, yes, i agree that you could also look at base damage without might stacks and it would be a fair comparison too, just not very valid in terms of how it is ingame.
its like saying, i could deal this much damage with my sword, but i left it with a blunt edge, just to be sure i didn’t account for something i may or may not achieve.

But yes, pet DPS is imperfect, if anything, they may need a slight increase, or rather, i think their stats should be revised completely. As certain pets should function otherwise.

Like, why does my spider and devourer who obviously have poison attacks, not have atleast SOME condition damage as base stat? Why does my moa’s have 0 boon duration when boons is what they are good at?
Why does my Canines have 0 condition duration when they specialize in AOE conditions.

However, if i compare ranger DPS and warrior DPS, ranger stays ahead marginally. But if we add in conditions, warrior wins.

Right, you can’t just ignore the fact that the Ranger can provide some might and fury on their own. But the idea is that a group of 5 will bring enough might and fury that they will be stacked the whole fight so factoring them in is trivial. Vuln has the opposite problem. It has a very short duration and tends to stack early and fade off after 20 seconds or so and is never really maxed during the bulk of a fight. Plus it’s a enemy debuff as opposed to a self buff and everyone will have it. As such, it’s better to not include it in calculations either.

This leaves the raw DPS potential of each class that is only impacted by trait based damage multipliers which Guardians, Ele’s, Thieves, and Warriors each cap out higher I believe? So even if you factor in those, the Ranger is kind of at a disadvantage. This leaves really the unadjusted raw value as giving the best picture of the Ranger as most other scenarios leave it at a disadvantage.

So what is the Ranger’s base raw damage considering an optimal sw+gs or GS only build?

Atherakhia.4086:

Prysin.8542:

well, i am only accounting for what the ranger brings on its own. If you are going to do calculations, then you must consider your own maximum potential before looking into what you may or may not get from others. However, yes, i agree that you could also look at base damage without might stacks and it would be a fair comparison too, just not very valid in terms of how it is ingame.
its like saying, i could deal this much damage with my sword, but i left it with a blunt edge, just to be sure i didn’t account for something i may or may not achieve.

But yes, pet DPS is imperfect, if anything, they may need a slight increase, or rather, i think their stats should be revised completely. As certain pets should function otherwise.

Like, why does my spider and devourer who obviously have poison attacks, not have atleast SOME condition damage as base stat? Why does my moa’s have 0 boon duration when boons is what they are good at?
Why does my Canines have 0 condition duration when they specialize in AOE conditions.

However, if i compare ranger DPS and warrior DPS, ranger stays ahead marginally. But if we add in conditions, warrior wins.

Right, you can’t just ignore the fact that the Ranger can provide some might and fury on their own. But the idea is that a group of 5 will bring enough might and fury that they will be stacked the whole fight so factoring them in is trivial. Vuln has the opposite problem. It has a very short duration and tends to stack early and fade off after 20 seconds or so and is never really maxed during the bulk of a fight. Plus it’s a enemy debuff as opposed to a self buff and everyone will have it. As such, it’s better to not include it in calculations either.

This leaves the raw DPS potential of each class that is only impacted by trait based damage multipliers which Guardians, Ele’s, Thieves, and Warriors each cap out higher I believe? So even if you factor in those, the Ranger is kind of at a disadvantage. This leaves really the unadjusted raw value as giving the best picture of the Ranger as most other scenarios leave it at a disadvantage.

vuln stacks can be kept on the enemy permanently if atleast 2 of the players use Sigil of Frailty. if the 3 others use water + strength, the whole question about party sustain is also covered. Leaving pets able to live through most encounters. This goes for PvE only.

I will note that pet + might stacking zerker ranger. Unless the enemy blows most of his/her cooldowns, they will go down too fast to react when using quickness and sword AA.

I will continue searching for the most reliable pet, i still believe it to be the spiders, as they got debuffs and also a very strong AA which they use most of the time. Birds are bursty, and sort of frail. We will see. This is not the end of the thread in any way.

warriorjrd.8695:

Killsmith.8169:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Just IMO but I’ve always found birds to be the most reliable for consistent damage. They don’t appear to be as clunky as pets that are bound to earth and seem to be able to more effectively land attacks on moving targets. That and they also hit about as hard as felines do.
I personally like to use the raven because we don’t have much access to blinds.

They’re just as bound to earth as every other pet. They even take fall damage.

Yes but as he said, they don’t have as much of an issue with hitting a moving target, which can, in some fights, result in more DPS.

^ Thank you.

Atherakhia.4086:

Prysin.8542:

well, i am only accounting for what the ranger brings on its own. If you are going to do calculations, then you must consider your own maximum potential before looking into what you may or may not get from others. However, yes, i agree that you could also look at base damage without might stacks and it would be a fair comparison too, just not very valid in terms of how it is ingame.
its like saying, i could deal this much damage with my sword, but i left it with a blunt edge, just to be sure i didn’t account for something i may or may not achieve.

But yes, pet DPS is imperfect, if anything, they may need a slight increase, or rather, i think their stats should be revised completely. As certain pets should function otherwise.

Like, why does my spider and devourer who obviously have poison attacks, not have atleast SOME condition damage as base stat? Why does my moa’s have 0 boon duration when boons is what they are good at?
Why does my Canines have 0 condition duration when they specialize in AOE conditions.

However, if i compare ranger DPS and warrior DPS, ranger stays ahead marginally. But if we add in conditions, warrior wins.

Right, you can’t just ignore the fact that the Ranger can provide some might and fury on their own. But the idea is that a group of 5 will bring enough might and fury that they will be stacked the whole fight so factoring them in is trivial. Vuln has the opposite problem. It has a very short duration and tends to stack early and fade off after 20 seconds or so and is never really maxed during the bulk of a fight. Plus it’s a enemy debuff as opposed to a self buff and everyone will have it. As such, it’s better to not include it in calculations either.

This leaves the raw DPS potential of each class that is only impacted by trait based damage multipliers which Guardians, Ele’s, Thieves, and Warriors each cap out higher I believe? So even if you factor in those, the Ranger is kind of at a disadvantage. This leaves really the unadjusted raw value as giving the best picture of the Ranger as most other scenarios leave it at a disadvantage.

So what is the Ranger’s base raw damage considering an optimal sw+gs or GS only build?

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/91678-post-april-2014-patch-dps-calculations/

It’s already all been done. As you can see Ranger sucks.

In a typical group setting a ranger and pet will get around 8.5k dps not counting Vuln.

For comparison’s sake using the same assumptions (25 Might, 0 Vuln, Warrior Banners, Spotter, traited FS)

thief: 13.5k
Warrior: 11k
Staff ele: 12k
Guardian: 8.5k
Necro: 9.2k
Engineer: 11.7k

Rangers are definitely in the bottom tier, if you take pet DPS out they aren’t even mentionable. The DPS you benefit your party with using FS and Spotter does mitigate your own abysmal DPS so your party breaks even. Rangers need to be buffed by about 10% to make them a “must bring” addition to parties.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Atherakhia.4086:

Prysin.8542:

well, i am only accounting for what the ranger brings on its own. If you are going to do calculations, then you must consider your own maximum potential before looking into what you may or may not get from others. However, yes, i agree that you could also look at base damage without might stacks and it would be a fair comparison too, just not very valid in terms of how it is ingame.
its like saying, i could deal this much damage with my sword, but i left it with a blunt edge, just to be sure i didn’t account for something i may or may not achieve.

But yes, pet DPS is imperfect, if anything, they may need a slight increase, or rather, i think their stats should be revised completely. As certain pets should function otherwise.

Like, why does my spider and devourer who obviously have poison attacks, not have atleast SOME condition damage as base stat? Why does my moa’s have 0 boon duration when boons is what they are good at?
Why does my Canines have 0 condition duration when they specialize in AOE conditions.

However, if i compare ranger DPS and warrior DPS, ranger stays ahead marginally. But if we add in conditions, warrior wins.

Right, you can’t just ignore the fact that the Ranger can provide some might and fury on their own. But the idea is that a group of 5 will bring enough might and fury that they will be stacked the whole fight so factoring them in is trivial. Vuln has the opposite problem. It has a very short duration and tends to stack early and fade off after 20 seconds or so and is never really maxed during the bulk of a fight. Plus it’s a enemy debuff as opposed to a self buff and everyone will have it. As such, it’s better to not include it in calculations either.

This leaves the raw DPS potential of each class that is only impacted by trait based damage multipliers which Guardians, Ele’s, Thieves, and Warriors each cap out higher I believe? So even if you factor in those, the Ranger is kind of at a disadvantage. This leaves really the unadjusted raw value as giving the best picture of the Ranger as most other scenarios leave it at a disadvantage.

So what is the Ranger’s base raw damage considering an optimal sw+gs or GS only build?

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/91678-post-april-2014-patch-dps-calculations/

It’s already all been done. As you can see Ranger sucks.

The build that was tested was lower DPS than Prysins, I guarantee it’s another one of those “ignore the pet” builds, which does NOT do higher damage than a build with even minor amounts of points into BM.

Also I wouldn’t be surprised if the numbers excluded buffing the pet…

How does the Pet DPS work out if we assume max stacks of Master’s Bond (with the obvious tweak to your skill build to accommodate the trait change)?

Tree.3916:

In a typical group setting a ranger and pet will get around 8.5k dps not counting Vuln.

For comparison’s sake using the same assumptions (25 Might, 0 Vuln, Warrior Banners, Spotter, traited FS)

thief: 13.5k
Warrior: 11k
Staff ele: 12k
Guardian: 8.5k
Necro: 9.2k
Engineer: 11.7k

Rangers are definitely in the bottom tier, if you take pet DPS out they aren’t even mentionable. The DPS you benefit your party with using FS and Spotter does mitigate your own abysmal DPS so your party breaks even. Rangers need to be buffed by about 10% to make them a “must bring” addition to parties.

I know it’s very situational, but where would you place mesmer on that list?

Durzlla.6295:

Also I wouldn’t be surprised if the numbers excluded buffing the pet…

I’m pretty sure Nike and GK are including might and fury, but not unique buffs such as banners (because pets don’t get them when your entire party is within range)

Isn’t the new trend the greatsword build?

You also wouldn’t consider common variables in the calculations just because a group of 5 can maintain the stacks as it is.

TurtleDragon.3108:

Durzlla.6295:

Also I wouldn’t be surprised if the numbers excluded buffing the pet…

I’m pretty sure Nike and GK are including might and fury, but not unique buffs such as banners (because pets don’t get them when your entire party is within range)

[/quote]

If those numbers are right, they would have to include might at the very least. I assume they would just be capped might with fury on both pet and ranger. Non-buffed numbers don’t go above 3k as the other poster mentioned.

I was referring to the pet only, the numbers for the ranger include standard buffs.

The numbers people are posting are the sum of a near fully buffed ranger and a pet with basic boons via fortifying bond.

You can include the jaguar stalk ability too (25% crit chance and crit damage increase if i recall). Couple that in with say signet of beastmaster and quickness and you have a pleasant burst. Sadly, once that burst is gone, so drops the dps. For bosses that die very quickly, rangers are very good.

TurtleDragon.3108:

Tree.3916:

In a typical group setting a ranger and pet will get around 8.5k dps not counting Vuln.

For comparison’s sake using the same assumptions (25 Might, 0 Vuln, Warrior Banners, Spotter, traited FS)

thief: 13.5k
Warrior: 11k
Staff ele: 12k
Guardian: 8.5k
Necro: 9.2k
Engineer: 11.7k

Rangers are definitely in the bottom tier, if you take pet DPS out they aren’t even mentionable. The DPS you benefit your party with using FS and Spotter does mitigate your own abysmal DPS so your party breaks even. Rangers need to be buffed by about 10% to make them a “must bring” addition to parties.

I know it’s very situational, but where would you place mesmer on that list?

Durzlla.6295:

Also I wouldn’t be surprised if the numbers excluded buffing the pet…

I’m pretty sure Nike and GK are including might and fury, but not unique buffs such as banners (because pets don’t get them when your entire party is within range)

Re: Mesmers. Mesmers require a lot of assumptions, but a 64004 mesmer with 3 Swordsmen up, 2 mantras readied and the same buffs we considered here (banners, 25 might, spotter, frost spirit, no vuln) would be somewhere around 9.5k. How feasible 3 swordsmen up at a given time is your call, I aim inclined to say “not very” but I think 2 swordsmen one Warden is slightly more realistic. Each phantasm is around 1900 dps so feel free to add or subtract the phantasm dps as you see fit.

Also remember the numbers I put are with ZERO vuln. Even a bad team is likely to have 10-20 vuln on bosses pretty much so increase the numbers by that much. Also, the numbers I gave for the above classes include their condition damage which is important. I haven’t yet added condi damage in for mesmer and thats likely to be a few hundred dps.

For pet dps we assumed fury and might, but not banners or spotter or frost spirit.

Tree.3916:

For pet dps we assumed fury and might, but not banners or spotter or frost spirit.

and i have calculated without might + fury, and with. I also add in spotter because it is almost mandatory in dungeons.
I could not be kitten d to calculate the actual DPS uptime frost spirit gives (if it is still bugged, its 10% on every strike. If they fixed it, its 70% chance every 10 seconds to deal 10% more damage. which is something like 7/10 chance to deal 1% more damage each second. Which is like, ridiculously negligible in a total DPS calculation).

Reading over Guangs post i see you used this build;
4/5/0/5/0 Sword/Feline

I assume the traits was as following;
Steady Focus, Spotter
Pet’s Prowess, Beastmasters Might
nothing
Strength of Spirit, Invigorating Spirits
Passive boosts from minors; 10 vuln stacks on start of battle. 10% damage from full endurance, 10% damage from flanking, 5% damage for having A boon (not each).

So in total; 35% damage increase from passive triggers at start of combat.

Dissecting this; Pet does not gain bonus from Steady Focus or Hunters Tactics. It does get the 5% bonus from having a boon and it does get bonus damage from vulnerability. This means pet is passively at 15% buff.

Now dissecting your build further; pet gets 10% no matter what due to 4 into Marks. So removing that you spent 3 trait points on rubbish traits (Skirmish GM minor, Nature Master and GM minor) that subsequently result in 15% damage for ranger and 5% for pet. Actual pet DPS is following this calculation;

Guangs Build generates the following pet DPS;
1374 power (base) + 25*35 power (might) = 2249 power
Base damage = 908.25 damage
Pet precision = 2061 + 150 (spotter) = 66.1% + 20% from fury = rounded down to~85%
Pet critical damage = 180% (base + 30)
Following the chart, the pet DPS is now as following; 1.680 * base = 1525.86
Guangs build also factor in +5% from pet and ranger having a boon, frost spirit realistically adds 1%/second if going by extremely rough mathematics.

So final pet dps is 1525.86 +6% = 1617.4116 damage per second.
This is not including vulnerability.
Guangs math shows pet DPS to be 1364 (max bonuses).

This leads me to think that they did NOT calculate to some pet enhancing traits, and they did NOT properly calculate for pet critical damage.

If going by this. the difference between my estimated max pet DPS, and guang’s estimated max ranger DPS is as following;
1617.41 – 1364 = 253.41
Ranger = 8064k + 1617.41 = 9681.41

Now if we factor in the Jaguar as the pet. running Sic’em + Quickening Zephyr + Jaguar Stealth. Pet DPS should, in theory, be boosted by another 70% due to increased attack rate, increased DPS, critical chance and critical damage

Jaguar DPS (over 6 seconds) = (908.25 * 2.050) +40% * 1.5 (50% increased attack rate)
Jaguar burst DPS = 3895.0125

This burst is not 100% accurate, but it is a estimated number based on calculations relevant for the burst timeframe

Most boss fights lasts between 10 and 35 seconds depending on the boss. Meaning that you can take that burst DPS, add a 1.5 modifier to ranger DPS for 6 seconds, then follow up with dividing ranger “burst” DPS over the time a fight lasts and add that DPS to the total DPS.

In short TL;DR version; if fight lasts 35 seconds at max. 3895.0125 / 35 = 111.28 DPS more for the pet. and 8064*1.5 / 35 = 345.6 damage increase for ranger. Total DPS is now raised by 446.88.

I am not questioning your ability to calculate this stuff guang, but you are overlooking certain details and should be taken into consideration as they are vital to the bigger picture.

I still think you can draw out ever so slightly more DPS from the pet. One method would be 2 into BM with full Masters Bond stacks which would surmount to 1100 more pet stats.

So while we raised pet DPS by almost 750 damage pr second, we reduced player DPS by 7.5% (due to missing traits)

The corrected DPS is as following:
Ranger DPS 8064 – 7.5% (roughly factoring in lost vitality to power bonus from trait) = 7459.2
Pet DPS is as following: 2272.16

Total DPS is now; 9731.36

If factoring in quickness + sic’em that damage is elevated further to; 2772.58 +40% * 1.5 /35
7459.2 * 1.5 / 35

Ranger total DPS including burst = 2938.93 + 7778.88 = 10717.81

That is flat out MAXIMUM DPS a ranger can dish out. I am by this assuming that all calculations done by Guang regarding ranger player DPS is spot on and taking into consideration all possible bonuses.

But yeah, pet DPS is brutal, if you use the pet correctly.

Tree.3916:

Re: Mesmers. Mesmers require a lot of assumptions, but a 64004 mesmer with 3 Swordsmen up, 2 mantras readied and the same buffs we considered here (banners, 25 might, spotter, frost spirit, no vuln) would be somewhere around 9.5k. How feasible 3 swordsmen up at a given time is your call, I aim inclined to say “not very” but I think 2 swordsmen one Warden is slightly more realistic. Each phantasm is around 1900 dps so feel free to add or subtract the phantasm dps as you see fit.

Also remember the numbers I put are with ZERO vuln. Even a bad team is likely to have 10-20 vuln on bosses pretty much so increase the numbers by that much. Also, the numbers I gave for the above classes include their condition damage which is important. I haven’t yet added condi damage in for mesmer and thats likely to be a few hundred dps.

For pet dps we assumed fury and might, but not banners or spotter or frost spirit.

I’m not quite sure how you did your calculations but that mesmer number you just quoted is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off. That’d put a 3-phantasm mesmer in necro tier which is pretty much just absurd. My own calculations give me 3-phant mes as second-highest in the game, just barely below staff ele. If you’re putting staff ele at 12k (not gonna bother with that thief figure for now) 3phant mesmer would be somewhere around 11.5k. People have argued about the practicality of mesmer DPS in the past but I don’t think anyone’s ever really disputed the potential. Not to mention ever since I did the crunch on ranger DPS and figured that it would always be a net loss to bring a ranger, I stopped using Frostspotter so mesmer DPS got a relative boost (since they don’t take the hit of being the only ones who don’t benefit from Frost Spirit anymore).

Prysin.8542:

No offense, but I can’t be assed to parse through that late at night. I will say that I have accounted for crits and all that, and if there’s a 250~ damage difference between our numbers, it’s because you’re not accurately timing the pet’s attacks as I mentioned before. I can also say that if you’re just looking at your opening burst using stuff like Signet of the Wild and QZ, Ranger comes out slightly better but so does everyone else, so their comparable DPS over time still doesn’t look too hot. In fact, depending on how you want to gate the repeatability of the burst (i.e. is a 60-second CD acceptable, but an elite on 180s CD not?) the highest effective burst DPS class I think is actually engineer due to the sheer number of skills they have available to open a fight with.

i will concede at this point that pet DPS should be increased. I say player DPS is comparable to other professions DPS output, but our mechanic/extra damage is what puts us behind.

Pet DPS itself needs a boost of almost 20 to 30% for us to be in line with warrior, ele, thief and mesmer. This would make us extremely strong 1v1, so perhaps the pet DPS boost should be a split between increasing coefficiency values and BM points adding more stats then now?

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I’m not quite sure how you did your calculations but that mesmer number you just quoted is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off.

Not really when you consider I wasn’t adding vuln or condi damage, which when you consider those puts the mesmer up to 12k-ish dps which is pretty much spot on. One thing you may need to reconsider with mesmer is the 3rd auto attack in the sword chain is bugged and the coefficient/tooltip is totally wrong and it does way less damage than it is “supposed to.”

Prysin.8542:

i will concede at this point that pet DPS should be increased. I say player DPS is comparable to other professions DPS output, but our mechanic/extra damage is what puts us behind.

Pet DPS itself needs a boost of almost 20 to 30% for us to be in line with warrior, ele, thief and mesmer. This would make us extremely strong 1v1, so perhaps the pet DPS boost should be a split between increasing coefficiency values and BM points adding more stats then now?

as i know is anet against buffing skills or traits they already nerfed before.
when we watch back at BM nerf last year (25.6.13/sky pirates/torment/aquaman Patch) :

Pets
•Armor Fish: Bite: Reduced the damage by 50%.
•Bird: Slash: Increased the damage by 15%.
•Eagle: Lacerating Slash: Reduced the damage by 50%.
•Raven: Blinding Slash: Reduced the damage by 34%.
•Canine: Bite: Reduced the damage by 27%.
•Devourer: Twin Darts: Reduced the damage by 20%.
•Drake: Bite: Reduced the damage by 27%.
•Insect Swarm: This skill can no longer fire behind the drake.
•Drake: Lightning Breath: Reduced the damage by 17%.
•Feline: Maul: Reduced the damage by 50%.
•Jaguar: Stalking: Critical chance increase while in stealth reduced to 25%.
•Jellyfish: Tentacle Slash: Increased the damage by 50%.
•Jellyfish Blue: Chilling Whirl: Decreased the damage by 33%.
•Moa: Peck: Reduced the damage by 7%.
•Pig: Jab: Reduced the damage by 25%.
•Shark: Bite: Increased the damage by 10%.
•Spider: Spit: Increased the damage by 10%.

in some cases the dmg Output of pets would almost as high like in old BM times.
(for math noobs, loosing 30% dmg and after a while get 30% back is not the same: 0,7*1.3=0,91)
I dont want a BM time back, so when a buff then a smart buff in increasing the coefficients and buffing the pet attacks in look at Utility and new conditions and boons for some pets.
And when a raw stat increase of pets happens, the BM trait line Needs a Change that the dmg and defense increase from BM line is not that big anymore.
But that can be difficult because changing it in % like most other Class specific lines would just increase it even more.

snow.8097:

-interesting stuff-

BM pets are unfortunately only strong in 1v1 or 2v1 encounters. This is why pets appear to be “too strong to kill”. Mostly because people attack pet a little, realize it can take some hits and move back to the ranger because they -think- it’s faster to win if they just go after the guy with 2 million evades right away.

BM pets needs a change, for starters, all pets should have some base condition damage stat, as almost all pets DO have some sort of condition added into one of their attacks. All pets should also have VERY high healing power, close to a 1000 stat right away would be fine. Reason for this is that almost ALL pets have some sort of regeneration or gain HP from attack attack.

Then there is pet traits.
To make sure you can gain pet DPS, but not sacrifice your own, we’d have to merge pet traits in a smart manner.

Opening Strikes and Alpha strike naturally merge into one. I would reccommend moving a new merged trait to Marks master minor, this trait would be a merge between Malicious Training and expertice training (+350 condition damage and +50% pet condi duration).

Then we merge Concentration training and Compassion training. These become BM adept Minor.

Merge Speed training with Loud Whistle – Pet swap CD +20%. Pet attack CD -10% (could be buffed to -20% and still be fairly balanced with most pets except moa heal which would need lower healing but same CD)

Following traits should be merged Vigorous Training and Stability Training – 6 seconds stability and 6 seconds Vigor on pet swap granted to nearby allies. Combat Only requirement.

This would sort out a LOT of QoL issues with pets, however real pet stats should be buffed. I suggest the following;
Each point in beastmastery grants pets the following stats;
+5 beastmaster points (50 stat points) and 0,5% of player strength, precision, vitality, condition damage, healing power and toughness is added to pet stat points except pet ferocity.

This would mean that in DPS terms, we would gain from using celestial armor, but max DPS would still be less. Meaning that even though we usually suffer from “low damage” when running celestial, this would even out the odds.

Calculation done using PvP stats and only 6 points in BM
Total bonuses derived from this boost would be;
amors granting ferocity (with 6 in BM) – 176.61 more stat points.
Celestial armor (with 6 in BM) – 199.23 more stat points
Armors not granting ferocity (with 6 in BM) – 188.82 more stat points

This is just from 3% of player stats. But it would increase pet DPS by A LOT.

A lynx would have the following base DPS with this system;
Current system; 3000*1674* 0.35/2600 = 676.03
Proposed system; 3000*1674+199.23*0.35/2600 = 756.49

So thats 80.46 more DPS, an increase of nearly 12%. It is a simple buff. And it scales with investment. So if you want more pet DPS, you gotta invest in it.

For the sake of practicality, i think the buff may or may not have to move up to 0.75% or even 1% of player stats/point to make a difference.

Please do note that this would only up our DPS, but not our actual “practical output”. For that we need a better pathing given to our AI. and or a more aggressive target tracking system, allowing the pet to update its tracking and alter movement much much more often. This however would put immense load on ArenaNet’s side.

Giving pets permanent +30% movement may also solve the problem (making Agility training a standard pet value, not a trait). However it may also cause lower control ability as pets usually rubber band a little, but now they would rubber band a little, but very fast, giving the player a harder time to control them in situations where sticking your neck out will endanger the whole party.

anyway, today i went doing some research into spiders.
Spider AA coefficiency is 0.4364.

This grant us the following numbers:
Spider DPS with 0 BM = 691.86 (raw damage no crits)
Spider DPS with 6 BM = 842.92 (raw damage no crits)
Spider DPS factoring crits, 0 BM no PP or spotte r= 1.125 * 691.86 =778.34
Spider DPS factoring crits, 6 BM no PP or spotter = 1.200 * 842.92 = 1011.504
Spider DPS factoring crits, 0 BM, PP + Spotter = 1.240 * 691.86 =857.906
Spider DPS factoring crits, 6 BM, PP, Spotter = 1.360 842.92 = 1146.37
Spider MAX DPS – 1.5851787.05 = 2832.48

Spider DPS will be lower due to long cast time of the poison cloud skill, but this will be slightly offset by the “spit net” ability, as it’s damage is slightly higher.
I estimate my numbers to be 50-70DPS higher then it should be for an actual rotation.

Prysin.8542:

Wall of smart stuff

Ist our luck that the most Player underestimate the power of rangers and their pets. The best way to Counter a BM ( i was one of the second Generation of Beastmaster, i got this build from a friend who was invited to Paradigm) is just bursting the pet down and a BM has more Trouble. The most dont know that i have the Feeling.

yes i know all pets have some conditions, but some are not interesting, look at devourer, i just played a devourer underwater for the double stun. When they Change pet attacks in a smarter way, that attack could be on ground OR it the Change could be merged with the ideas in the thread u bring up last time.
Our pets could Need a bit torment or Retaliation, and their shouts like from drakes and Moas should be a a real AoE with a Change in CD and effect.

I have to disagree that almost all pets have some regen effect. Bear, drakes, Moas, the Fern hound have some, but the most used pets, cats, Dogs, birds, Spiders have not.
Personally i think 1000 is too much, i think around 500 would be enough, maybe 600 because we Need 560 to bring Regen over 200HP/s.

Regarding your merge ideas i have some doubts.
To merge the two pet condi traits is nice, but they should stay as Malicious Training as normal Adept Tier. Alone with the Change in MM we have two traits missing. The minor should be more related to the opening strike or Vulnerability in General, every crit of ur pet gives one stack Vuln or something like dat.
the missing WS Adept can be filled with some kitten. WS is a great Trait line in General, it doesnt Need new cool stuff.

The heal/boon pet trait merge gives us a new NM Adept trait. THE Chance for a Little trait to make shout rangers more interesting.

the merge with agility Training…maybe better to make it passive, even i am no real fan of it, idk.
The last Trait Fusion is very nice for Team Play, all in all the pet Family traits should be changed to be for all pets.

and while i agree with most of your idea i must say… just no to ur BM traitline idea. The pet buff would just be exclusive for BM Players like u, and that isnt the solving of the Problem.
A Little pet buff yes okay, but for all without forcing rangers back to BM meta.The BM line Needs to be balanced around the pet buff and not be the pet buff at all.

Tree.3916:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I’m not quite sure how you did your calculations but that mesmer number you just quoted is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off.

Not really when you consider I wasn’t adding vuln or condi damage, which when you consider those puts the mesmer up to 12k-ish dps which is pretty much spot on. One thing you may need to reconsider with mesmer is the 3rd auto attack in the sword chain is bugged and the coefficient/tooltip is totally wrong and it does way less damage than it is “supposed to.”

Vuln scales equally for everyone without heavy zerk condition damage (i.e. everyone but engies) and mesmer bleed from iSwordsmen is going to be less than 2 stacks per, it’s not going to push the mesmer up to 12k from 9.5k.

If people actually think mesmer maximum DPS is only on par with necro DPS then I’m starting to see why there’s a misconception that they’re not good for speedruns. It also doesn’t help when people run builds that clearly aren’t max DPS (“I run GS in offhand for the AOE”) or stuff that just isn’t practical (“I don’t trait for reduced cooldowns cause I can take this other trait that gives me like 5% more maximum DPS instead”) and then they complain that it’s impossible to maintain 3 phantasms. Of course you’ll hit like crap when you’ve got one phantasm skill on 20s CD and another on a weapon with no DPS of its own.

Getting a bit off topic anyway so whatever.

You have to consider that at 6 points in BM pets only get 1500 extra HP and not 3000.