Guild Wars 2

Aside from the first suggestion of the pet menu being redone and organized, I looked at the PVP menu and thought it would be a nicer template if the pet menu were to be revamped. With the “Filter” drop down for selecting all or certain species and the “Search” function for finding a pet by name.

As an added suggestion, what would the community think if Rangers were able to distribute trait points specifically for the pets? Working similar to the player’s trait menu, each point placed in a certain traitline will increase 2 specific stats by 50/5% while Beastmastery remains the same, plus, adding 50 healing power per point invested.

If pets were also given their own trait menu, how would the community feel if certain traits such as the “Training” traits (ie: Malicious Training) would be available upon investing enough points in certain trait lines for the pet? Thereby, freeing up a trait slot for for the Ranger to use something else.

I know I could have explained that last part better, but below is an example of what I’m thinking of. Thoughts on this?

You have my vote mate. =]

Get rid of our Beastmastery traitline and give it to the pets. Replace it with something useful.

That would be so kittening amazing. Anything to make our pets more useful, AND to break up monopoly of less than 5 or so “main” pets… Like taking a “glass cannon” bear could be a viable condi removal choice.

I think having actual trait points is too complex for the pet system, but we need some ability to change their stats…

To quote myself from another thread…

We should have the ability to choose pet skins, stats and F2 skill separately, depending on family.

In the Pet management screen, they would need to implement four drop down boxes with Family, Skin, stat set and F2 Skill. Like choosing stats on a legendary.

So, any pet can have any stat set you want, but the F2 skills and skin must come from the same family.

ie If you choose Feline, then the next drop box lists all the feline models/skins. Then you can pick the stats you like and an F2 skill from that family, eg Feline-Snow Leopard-Rabid-Rending Pounce. Or Canine-Wolf-Assassin-Howl of the Pack. Or Bird-Hawk-Soldier-Chilling Slash.

I think that would be enough to make it easy and fast to customise our pets and open up a ton of options, the list is nearly endless in that respect.

But, in addition to this, I would like to see a place on the management screen to add stacks of lvl0-40 food and potions that the pet can use when outside town (and use up the millions on the TP) and not be too OP as well as a major sigil slot.

I don’t believe giving pets a trait menu of their own would be too complex, though, I do like the idea of preset stats. I personally think a trait system could utilize the pet-centric training traits without having to invest points and use trait slots on the Ranger to boost our pet while placing ourselves at a disadvantage.

An optional extension could be to make some of the minor and major traits dealing solely with the pet to be exclusive for the pet trait menu and Anet working their brains on providing new traits for those vacant slots and reworking Beastmastery.

Though, I’m down with an option of having traits obtained by pets to be inaccessible in the Ranger trait menu. :P

I think that in order to spec to make your pet better, you really do need to lose something from yourself, it is balance. If a warrior wants to use burst skills all the time, he may trait for burst mastery, making his profession skill better in the process, by recharging it a couple of seconds faster, but taking a large investment of points to do so. I don’t think its any different to add +300 points to the stats on your pet plus get a GM trait like Invigorating Bond.

I think that if you were to have traits accessible only from the pet management screen, they should be limited to Pet’s Prowess, Malicious, Expertise, Concentration and Compassion Training. ie, you can pick one of those to suit the pets you are using and then those traits can be made into something else for the ranger. Like a blanket buff for your pets.

I just think that if you add too many options, people won’t take advantage of them anyway and it would be daunting for newer players as it adds double the complexity of builds. Sure it would be fine for seasoned Rangers, but the game is not really made like that.

I know I would be changing them all the time to suit my own build and to me it would be a pain to change traits on both myself and the pet. I would like to just be able to choose their stats at least so when I go condi I can choose an Assassin Jaguar with Pet’s Prowess. Or when I’m dual melee, I can pick a Celestial Hawk with Expertise Training.

Mmmm, Assassin’s Jaguar with Pet’s Prowess… Tasty.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

I think having actual trait points is too complex for the pet system, but we need some ability to change their stats…

To quote myself from another thread…

We should have the ability to choose pet skins, stats and F2 skill separately, depending on family.

In the Pet management screen, they would need to implement four drop down boxes with Family, Skin, stat set and F2 Skill. Like choosing stats on a legendary.

So, any pet can have any stat set you want, but the F2 skills and skin must come from the same family.

ie If you choose Feline, then the next drop box lists all the feline models/skins. Then you can pick the stats you like and an F2 skill from that family, eg Feline-Snow Leopard-Rabid-Rending Pounce. Or Canine-Wolf-Assassin-Howl of the Pack. Or Bird-Hawk-Soldier-Chilling Slash.

I think that would be enough to make it easy and fast to customise our pets and open up a ton of options, the list is nearly endless in that respect.

But, in addition to this, I would like to see a place on the management screen to add stacks of lvl0-40 food and potions that the pet can use when outside town (and use up the millions on the TP) and not be too OP as well as a major sigil slot.

Please, make it too complex?

Are ranger players too scared of a little tweak? Its like anyone against this change is mentally challenged to utilize the OPs suggestion. (no ad hominem intended) It just makes me mad that changes that add skill to our profession is being rejected, hence the bad reputation of rangers being 1 trick pony pew pew people.

It’s not that I am rejecting changes that add skill to Ranger, I’m rejecting ones that add a layer of PITA.

Like I said, it’s fine for seasoned players, but even then it would not be a QoL improvement. Unless they made builds able to be saved. Not OK for younger players or newbies. There is just no need for additional complexity in the form of another entire build just for the pet. Enough people need build advice as it is because they trait rubbish combinations.

I change builds and pets far too often to want to have to change the build of the pet as well, every time. Choosing the pet’s stats and one trait (Pet’s Prowess, Malicious, Expertise, Concentration, Speed or Compassion Training) as part of the management screen is ample customisation, simple and quick to change.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

It’s not that I am rejecting changes that add skill to Ranger, I’m rejecting ones that add a layer of PITA.

Like I said, it’s fine for seasoned players, but even then it would not be a QoL improvement. Unless they made builds able to be saved. Not OK for younger players or newbies. There is just no need for additional complexity in the form of another entire build just for the pet. Enough people need build advice as it is because they trait rubbish combinations.

I change builds and pets far too often to want to have to change the build of the pet as well, every time. Choosing the pet’s stats and one trait (Pet’s Prowess, Malicious, Expertise, Concentration, Speed or Compassion Training) as part of the management screen is ample customisation, simple and quick to change.

Oh i think we are saying different things, are you okay with the OPs suggestion..? Nit the QoL changes byut adding a seperate pet trait tree like the ones in WoW. Meaning they would get trait points apart from ours..

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

I think having actual trait points is too complex for the pet system, but we need some ability to change their stats…

Not more complex than elementalist.
Not more complex than engineers kits.
Not more complex than mesmer.
Not more complex than guardian.

solrik.6028:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

I think having actual trait points is too complex for the pet system, but we need some ability to change their stats…

Not more complex than elementalist.
Not more complex than engineers kits.
Not more complex than mesmer.
Not more complex than guardian.

Wait what?! Guardians are complex?!

StickerHappy:
I’m not OK with separate trait points for the pets. Though, on that screen we should get to choose ONE of these traits → Pet’s Prowess, Malicious, Expertise, Concentration, Speed or Compassion Training. Then we should be able to choose the stat set of the pet. That is all that is needed in my mind, anything more will NEVER be implemented as its just more complexity than there needs to be.

Solrik
If you needed another trait screen and separate build to use burst skills, attunements, engi tool belt, clones, DS or virtues, it would be insanity, but that is what you are asking for, for ranger? So you go to wvw, change your own armor and build, swap your pet, then set its traits as well? Then you decide you need a spider over a hound for a duel, so you need to change its build again to suit? Sounds like a total waste of time to me. Would be much better to just change the stats via a drop down box and then click Malicious Training. Done. That’s still a lot more customisation than other classes get.

You’re over-thinking what people may or may not do, Heimskarl. The typical and casual Ranger player will usually use the same build and pets for multiple modes.

In PVP, players tweak stats all the time in the lobby and do testing. WVW Rangers would probably find the added layer of customization great, especially if they can have Agility Training for their pet to have a higher hit consistency on a moving target via pet traits, without sacrificing a Skirmishing trait slot or investing extra into Skirmishing with their own traits.

As for PVE and Dungeon/Fractal Rangers, the ones that are great at them carry multiple weapons with different sigils, as well as swap out pets and traits frequently for situations. Doing it for one more menu will only bolster optimization rather than hinder it, especially since most can do it while on the move or quickly with time and practice.

If Rangers are given a separate trait menu for our pets, it will be there for those that want to take full advantage of it. For the rest, they can find settings and pets that they like, (such as double bows and tanky bears), and stick to them for whatever mode they play at their leisure.

Edit: Also, there is some QoL improvements here and there. Specifically, with the first point of sorting, organizing, and taking advantage of the search and filter options from the PVP menu and incorporating it into the Pet Management Menu. I had suggested a different layout before, as shown below, but having a search and filter was too good to pass up (imo).

wow this is well thought of i love it. hope the Devs can maybe look into this just few changes,

Marksmanship should have the same Power + Condition duration etc… then for Beastmastery for every point invested should reduce pet cooldowns instead and healing power. Investing points in each tree line should be the same as how players are then just be differentiated by traits on how you want your pet to work. Shouldve done this in the first place, this would be too much work for devs. very very good concept though, i really love it good job

I’m not really over-thinking what other people would do, I’m just thinking that I would find this a PITA.

If Rangers are given a separate trait menu for our pets, it will be there for those that want to take full advantage of it.

But that’s like saying that character builds are there for those who want to take full advantage. You can (can you?) really just leave the same traits on your character for everything.

Like I said, I swap pets and build constantly but having to do a whole build specifically for a pet would be a PITA and remove from the gameplay. I might change to different pets 5 times in a dungeon, which would also necessitate the changing of the build 5 times if that were the case. I think a majority would just stay with the same traits and never change them which defeats the purpose in the start, since in all likelihood, it would make pets worse for majority of your inexperienced rangers as they would pick pointless traits, like they do with character builds.

I do like the menu you have designed, however I would simplify it to just have dropdown menus for a choice tree that then added the stats and picture in the bottom of the menu as you did it. Then you just click for one of the specialist training traits.

I really want to be able to choose the stat set, but not traits as I change too often for that. Unless you could save the builds like GW1. Then it would be awesome. So, if you added ability to save builds you had previously made that included the pet, stats and traits, then I wholeheartedly agree. If not, its a PITA, but that is just my opinion.

I’d make it like this… Sorry for my crude image editing skills…

@Heim

Pet Related Traits.

Ive been saying this numerous times, when i played WoW, it gave me that sense of feeling the traiting my pet to suit various situation or gameplay modes only applied to my pet, i didnt have to spend trait points I have just to make my pet “viable”
For example, Having their own pet tree would:
I can trait to have -50% AOE damage when i want to WvW in zergs, therefore my damage output will not be kitten because my pet would have higher durability.
ALL these traits that we have Should be On A Pet Tree, And Replace them with traits that would benefit the ranger Directly
>Carnivorous Appetite
>Alpha Training
>Malicious Training
>Pet’s Prowess
>Companion’s Might
>Agility Training
>Expertise Training
>Concentration Training
>Instinctual Bond
>Master’s Bond
>Compassion Training
>Intimidation Training
>Speed Training
>Instinctual Bond
>Stability Training
>Rending Attacks
>Invigorating Bond
18 Traits all Pet Related
Reasoning:
1.) Now if we had our own pet tree, We (The Ranger)Will be able to have 18 Ranger Oriented (Affects the ranger or weapon skills, or utility skills)
That would Create A LOT of Diversity for the Ranger Class and The Pet Too!
2.) We don’t have to waste any more trait points just to make our pets “okay” or viable I mean CMON why would I waste 5 points just to make my pet be able to stick close to a Target?

So Heim or anyone, how many pet traits can you trait to make a viable build? 1 or 2? LOL right?

So having their own pet trait tree solves this problem. AT THE SAME TIME Count those traits I gave. ALL of IT only affects the PET. Would you ever trait for some of them with the Current Trait Setup?

Lemme Guess: NO

But if the pets had their trait tree, and you can trait for them without affecting/gimping your original build?

Answer?

Please Let Me Know.

Also why are people so afraid of retraiting? that’s so little work to be done on the side.

Nobody is afraid of retraiting, its just they (I) don’t really want to be forced into retraiting for the pet everytime I swap it, as well as myself when the pet traits can just be improved, making a synergistic build for both the ranger and pet. The entire basis of the class.

The pet is our class mechanic and adds to our damage and utility, that is why I don’t think it needs an extra build. For the pet to get its own build separate to ours, they would need to balance all our traits again.

Ranger and pet go hand in hand, so some of our traits should be dedicated to our pet, IF we want optimal builds. If a warrior got all the normal trait points PLUS more to add to burst mastery, it would be OP. If a Necro wants to run minions, they need to allocate skills and traits to that end, if a Mesmer wants more effective clones, it requires traits.

You can’t actually expect them to create another whole trait system just for pets. Remember that they have not even fixed the persistence of pet names let alone implementing an entire new trait system for pets alone.

If they removed only the Training traits from adept (plus pets prowess, which could be renamed to ferocity training) and added a choice of one of them for free on the management screen, then we would get an extra 6 adept traits (make it 7 with Agility Training) to choose from for ourselves and the pet would get a choice of a blanket buff for whatever role we want it to cover. That is more than I would hope to ask for, pure dream material.

Then, you are getting a decent buff to the pet for free and a choice of stats for whatever role you want it to have. If you want more than that, you may as well just ask for no pet whatsoever and get a blanket buff to the Ranger, but that will never happen.

And yes, I always trait for the pet with Dungeon builds and Cripshot etc. We work together, not as two separate entities.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Nobody is afraid of retraiting, its just they (I) don’t really want to be forced into retraiting for the pet everytime I swap it

I think this is where we might have thought of something else. My initial thought was the trait menu be consistent once distributed, and all pets would be using the same distribution until the player has modified it. Like how the player’s trait remain the same even after we have swapped weapons.

It sounds like you’re thinking that the traits automatically reset upon equipping a new pet, which, I don’t know where you got that.

Edit: Also, no worries about the image editing skills, but you might have overlooked something. Attributes were adjusted adding points gained from the trait distribution onto the base stats of a lv80 pet. Distributing in the example provided above for a Zerker-type pet yielded a nice boost in stats while keeping it tame since it would still be glassy (the Jaguar).

You would have had to adjust the attributes as well for the trinket, which seems more like “Pet Armor,” which has been suggested in the past. Anyways, if going off the base stats of a Jaguar and using trinket distribution from the PVP template (as you used), it would adjust the Jaguar to have 2024 Power vs 1824, 650 Ferocity (800 with Pet Prowess) vs 250/400, and 2993 Precision vs 2461. That’s too much.

If you meant it as the current attributes being obtained only after applying the trinket, then that means the base stats of pets would receive a nerf in stat reduction. Again, not sure if you caught that I’m suggesting to add onto the already established stats. If you did, then ignore this part.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Nobody is afraid of retraiting, its just they (I) don’t really want to be forced into retraiting for the pet everytime I swap it, as well as myself when the pet traits can just be improved, making a synergistic build for both the ranger and pet. The entire basis of the class.

The pet is our class mechanic and adds to our damage and utility, that is why I don’t think it needs an extra build. For the pet to get its own build separate to ours, they would need to balance all our traits again.

Ranger and pet go hand in hand, so some of our traits should be dedicated to our pet, IF we want optimal builds. If a warrior got all the normal trait points PLUS more to add to burst mastery, it would be OP. If a Necro wants to run minions, they need to allocate skills and traits to that end, if a Mesmer wants more effective clones, it requires traits.

You can’t actually expect them to create another whole trait system just for pets. Remember that they have not even fixed the persistence of pet names let alone implementing an entire new trait system for pets alone.

If they removed only the Training traits from adept (plus pets prowess, which could be renamed to ferocity training) and added a choice of one of them for free on the management screen, then we would get an extra 6 adept traits (make it 7 with Agility Training) to choose from for ourselves and the pet would get a choice of a blanket buff for whatever role we want it to cover. That is more than I would hope to ask for, pure dream material.

Then, you are getting a decent buff to the pet for free and a choice of stats for whatever role you want it to have. If you want more than that, you may as well just ask for no pet whatsoever and get a blanket buff to the Ranger, but that will never happen.

And yes, I always trait for the pet with Dungeon builds and Cripshot etc. We work together, not as two separate entities.

BUT you are forgetting Necro Minions are NOT a CLASS MECHANIC. Thats the biggest difference. Now if we had our own pet trait tree, imagine the build diversity we would get! Ranger and Pet Diversity for that matter.

AND OUR CLASS MECHANIC DIES, so… if you kill the pet. guess what happens?

I like the work you’ve put into this.

I’d love to have the improved pet interface.

I would not want to have my traits coupled with my pet selection as there are times I want to only change my pet or only change my traits, but not both.

I didn’t assume the pets traits would reset upon swap, but different traits would be required for different pets. Agility Training is not a good trait for spiders and Concentration Training is not a good trait for Porcine pets, traiting for condition damage on your devourer then swapping to a jaguar needs a change to power specs. Each pet would need its own build that you would need to change, every time you swap the pet. It would be like keeping the same LB Power traits all the time, then grabbing your A/D S/T and traps out and trying to play condi. Do you mean that each pet would (upon swapping to that pet) load its own set of traits that you have previously set? So if I changed out my Jaguar to an Owl, the game would load the build I made for the Owl? Then if I went back to the Jag, the build I’d done was loaded automatically? If so, then OK, that would be OK. But I still think having trait points aside from our own only for the pet would be OP.

I didn’t change the data on the specs at all mate, I just cut and pasted. Purely for asthetic reasons and did no calculations of actual stats. I was just thinking they could adjust base pet attributes to be the same and then you could add in one of the PvP amulets stats to the pet to define its role. Same as for us.

I knew I shouldn’t have included minions as someone would point out they are not a class mechanic… Forget those then, think on clones. If you want better clones for your Mesmer, they require traits and compromise in the build. If you could build your Mesmer as a zerk shatter burst build, then get a whole bunch of other traits to freely add to make the clones and shatters better at applying conditions as well, imagine the QQ that would happen as it is totally OP and unbalanced. Same goes for every other class mechanic. Imagine Death Shroud having its own trait tree or guard getting to use virtue traits not as part of their build, or thief getting the steal traits as well as a separate build it would be absurd.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

I knew I shouldn’t have included minions as someone would point out they are not a class mechanic… Forget those then, think on clones. If you want better clones for your Mesmer, they require traits and compromise in the build. If you could build your Mesmer as a zerk shatter burst build, then get a whole bunch of other traits to freely add to make the clones and shatters better at applying conditions as well, imagine the QQ that would happen as it is totally OP and unbalanced. Same goes for every other class mechanic. Imagine Death Shroud having its own trait tree or guard getting to use virtue traits not as part of their build, or thief getting the steal traits as well as a separate build it would be absurd.

Can’t think of illusions when discussing the pet, since Mesmers have their mechanics built into their weapons and utilities. If we could summon a pet by using a weapon skill or utility, then you could compare pets to illusions, but that is not the case.

Rangers have a handful of weapon moves (such as Axe 3 which the grants the pet’s next attack to inflict weakness) and utilities that augment the pet, yet those bonuses mean nothing if the pet has been defeated. The pet is a separate entity, not bound by weapon skills or created upon utility usage.

Pets having their own trait menu will allow flexibility and build diversity. I understand your concern about constantly adjusting traits and opting for a build save. People have wanted build saving and sharing from GW1 in GW2 for the longest time, as do I. However, I don’t see that as an option until Anet implements it, thus, why it never crossed my mind to even suggest it.

I think the easiest way to evade the problem of retraiting when you swap pets is to have two “active” traitlines, one for each of your pet slots (primary and secondary). that way you can always have a minimum of two active builds, even if you swap out the “base stats”, which would be the pet in question that you’re swapping out.

Handling your traits and handling your pets should be two separate menus.

If you want to quickly change your pet, the screenshots show an interface that is quite superior to the one we currently have in-game.

If you want to quickly change your traits, then keep asking ArenaNet to give us build templates similar to what we had in GW1.

While I love the idea of traits for the pet I have to admit it’d be a bit tedious to change the builds each time I change to a different pet combo. While you could theoretically have each pet have a saved build that is extremely unlikely. Anet doesn’t even have the data storage space to save all our pet NAMES, much less entire builds.

I feel Heimskarl’s idea would work best. Allow the player to choose the stat loadout and one of the traits he listed that change the pet’s stats. That’s all the customization you really need.

A River Drake with zerker stats and Pet’s Prowess would be legitimately overpowered. With my BM build it’s F2 already hits for around 4-6K damage with a 3K Tail Swipe. All multi-target skills. With zerker stats I could see it breaking 10K with it’s F2 easily, then following up with a 7K Tail Swipe.

Ehecatl.9172:

A River Drake with zerker stats and Pet’s Prowess would be legitimately overpowered. With my BM build it’s F2 already hits for around 4-6K damage with a 3K Tail Swipe. All multi-target skills. With zerker stats I could see it breaking 10K with it’s F2 easily, then following up with a 7K Tail Swipe.

Yes… God forbid a Drake’s F2 and Tail Swipe hit harder with a 25/30 second cooldown if traited for.

Wondrouswall.7169:

Yes… God forbid a Drake’s F2 and Tail Swipe hit harder with a 25/30 second cooldown if traited for.

That in itself isn’t a problem. The problem comes in when the ranger is wearing full soldiers or clerics gear and is putting out those kinds of numbers through their pet with absolutely no investment on the ranger’s part, as all the traits and stats needed are attached to said pet.

Having “free” traits / stats for pets independent of the Ranger’s would be broken and completely out of line with every other profession in the game. You want to buff Death Shroud, you spend trait points. You want to buff Illusions / Shatters, you spend trait points. You want to buff Virtues, you spend trait points. Pets are no different, nor should they be.

Yes, we get it. People don’t like pets, they can die, they want to be powerful on their own without relying on pets, yada yada yada. None of that justifies free boosts to a profession mechanic that everyone else has to trait for.

Electro.4173:

Having “free” traits / stats for pets independent of the Ranger’s would be broken and completely out of line with every other profession in the game. You want to buff Death Shroud, you spend trait points. You want to buff Illusions / Shatters, you spend trait points. You want to buff Virtues, you spend trait points. Pets are no different, nor should they be.

Yes, we get it. People don’t like pets, they can die, they want to be powerful on their own without relying on pets, yada yada yada. None of that justifies free boosts to a profession mechanic that everyone else has to trait for.

Uhmm.. Only rangers have that CLASS MECHANIC that you can completely disable for 60 seconds?

Which nets for 30% of our damage? Which our GM trait EB also relies on?

So what exactly do we get as a compensation?

Oh yes.. Nothing. Right? Or the ole L2P phrase?

Electro.4173:

Having “free” traits / stats for pets independent of the Ranger’s would be broken and completely out of line with every other profession in the game. You want to buff Death Shroud, you spend trait points. You want to buff Illusions / Shatters, you spend trait points. You want to buff Virtues, you spend trait points. Pets are no different, nor should they be.

Yes, we get it. People don’t like pets, they can die, they want to be powerful on their own without relying on pets, yada yada yada. None of that justifies free boosts to a profession mechanic that everyone else has to trait for.

Would not be broken at all. Other games have done it, Anet could do it as well and balance it. Also, yes, some rangers don’t like pets, but adding separate traits for pets would open up more possibilities for the class than a permanent stow.

If a warrior has no adrenaline, they have no class mechanic to use. If a Mesmer has no Illusions to shatter or attack, they have no class mechanic, if a necro uses up his life force, he has no class mechanic, if a thief uses steal, until the recharge he has no class mechanic, if a guard uses up his virtues, he has no class mechanic. If a Ranger allows his pet to be killed before swapping or otherwise, he has no class mechanic, there does have to be some risk. It’s not like we need to enter combat and build up a resource (like adrenaline, clones, life force etc) in order to use our class mechanic, we can just order it to attack from the get go.

Sure, our traits need some work, like EB for sure needs another +ve effect for the pet too, like shortened condi duration or resistance. And Shared Anguish needs to be looked at in the light of all the other classes similar traits. Also, the CD on pet death should be shortened for sure by 20%, but that doesn’t mean we should get a whole bunch of traits for free. Fixing our traits serves the same purpose.

Sure, they could do it too, like other games, but that balancing would require less trait points for the actual ranger, or nerfing of our traits to suit. Fact is, that if pet traits were removed to their own build it would still remove as much from the ranger as it does now. Not only that, but it adds a level of complexity not needed and requires an entire re-code of the ranger trait system. It’s a nice idea, its just never going to happen. I wouldn’t really want it to myself, I just want to be able to set the stats. If they gave us a free adept trait as a ‘Training’ Specialisation for the pet, I would be over the moon.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

If a warrior has no adrenaline, they have no class mechanic to use. If a Mesmer has no Illusions to shatter or attack, they have no class mechanic, if a necro uses up his life force, he has no class mechanic, if a thief uses steal, until the recharge he has no class mechanic, if a guard uses up his virtues, he has no class mechanic. If a Ranger allows his pet to be killed before swapping or otherwise, he has no class mechanic, there does have to be some risk. It’s not like we need to enter combat and build up a resource (like adrenaline, clones, life force etc) in order to use our class mechanic, we can just order it to attack from the get go.

Sure, our traits need some work, like EB for sure needs another +ve effect for the pet too, like shortened condi duration or resistance. And Shared Anguish needs to be looked at in the light of all the other classes similar traits. Also, the CD on pet death should be shortened for sure by 20%, but that doesn’t mean we should get a whole bunch of traits for free. Fixing our traits serves the same purpose.

Sure, they could do it too, like other games, but that balancing would require less trait points for the actual ranger, or nerfing of our traits to suit. Fact is, that if pet traits were removed to their own build it would still remove as much from the ranger as it does now. Not only that, but it adds a level of complexity not needed and requires an entire re-code of the ranger trait system. It’s a nice idea, its just never going to happen. I wouldn’t really want it to myself, I just want to be able to set the stats. If they gave us a free adept trait as a ‘Training’ Specialisation for the pet, I would be over the moon.

As I said no other class can their mechanic be disabled for 60 seconds = 30% less damage and a Useless GM trait for that matter.

StickerHappy.8052:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

If a warrior has no adrenaline, they have no class mechanic to use. If a Mesmer has no Illusions to shatter or attack, they have no class mechanic, if a necro uses up his life force, he has no class mechanic, if a thief uses steal, until the recharge he has no class mechanic, if a guard uses up his virtues, he has no class mechanic. If a Ranger allows his pet to be killed before swapping or otherwise, he has no class mechanic, there does have to be some risk. It’s not like we need to enter combat and build up a resource (like adrenaline, clones, life force etc) in order to use our class mechanic, we can just order it to attack from the get go.

Sure, our traits need some work, like EB for sure needs another +ve effect for the pet too, like shortened condi duration or resistance. And Shared Anguish needs to be looked at in the light of all the other classes similar traits. Also, the CD on pet death should be shortened for sure by 20%, but that doesn’t mean we should get a whole bunch of traits for free. Fixing our traits serves the same purpose.

Sure, they could do it too, like other games, but that balancing would require less trait points for the actual ranger, or nerfing of our traits to suit. Fact is, that if pet traits were removed to their own build it would still remove as much from the ranger as it does now. Not only that, but it adds a level of complexity not needed and requires an entire re-code of the ranger trait system. It’s a nice idea, its just never going to happen. I wouldn’t really want it to myself, I just want to be able to set the stats. If they gave us a free adept trait as a ‘Training’ Specialisation for the pet, I would be over the moon.

As I said no other class can their mechanic be disabled for 60 seconds = 30% less damage and a Useless GM trait for that matter.

No other classes have to rely on barely passable AI that can’t attack/act and move at the same time for their mechanic either…

Substance E.4852:

StickerHappy.8052:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

If a warrior has no adrenaline, they have no class mechanic to use. If a Mesmer has no Illusions to shatter or attack, they have no class mechanic, if a necro uses up his life force, he has no class mechanic, if a thief uses steal, until the recharge he has no class mechanic, if a guard uses up his virtues, he has no class mechanic. If a Ranger allows his pet to be killed before swapping or otherwise, he has no class mechanic, there does have to be some risk. It’s not like we need to enter combat and build up a resource (like adrenaline, clones, life force etc) in order to use our class mechanic, we can just order it to attack from the get go.

Sure, our traits need some work, like EB for sure needs another +ve effect for the pet too, like shortened condi duration or resistance. And Shared Anguish needs to be looked at in the light of all the other classes similar traits. Also, the CD on pet death should be shortened for sure by 20%, but that doesn’t mean we should get a whole bunch of traits for free. Fixing our traits serves the same purpose.

Sure, they could do it too, like other games, but that balancing would require less trait points for the actual ranger, or nerfing of our traits to suit. Fact is, that if pet traits were removed to their own build it would still remove as much from the ranger as it does now. Not only that, but it adds a level of complexity not needed and requires an entire re-code of the ranger trait system. It’s a nice idea, its just never going to happen. I wouldn’t really want it to myself, I just want to be able to set the stats. If they gave us a free adept trait as a ‘Training’ Specialisation for the pet, I would be over the moon.

As I said no other class can their mechanic be disabled for 60 seconds = 30% less damage and a Useless GM trait for that matter.

No other classes have to rely on barely passable AI that can’t attack/act and move at the same time for their mechanic either…

Exactly the point of this thread. To make pets better.

Hey, I’m in full agreement that losing our class mechanic for 60 seconds is ridiculous. But then that’s what they need to look at changing, not adding a bunch of bells and whistles above and beyond what any other class gets to try and make the mechanic “worth” a 60-second delay.

StickerHappy.8052:

As I said no other class can their mechanic be disabled for 60 seconds = 30% less damage and a Useless GM trait for that matter.

So, to fix that, all they need to change is one line of code to bring the CD on pet death down. Then add a buff to EB for the pet, for instance; “Transfer 3 conditions to your pet. 10s CD. Your pet has -33% condition duration and is healed for 5% of it’s health when it gains a condition.”

Substance E.4852:

No other classes have to rely on barely passable AI that can’t attack/act and move at the same time for their mechanic either…

This is true, but that has nothing to do with traits, it’s a separate issue entirely and one they need to fix. Mesmer clones have the same AI too.

StickerHappy.8052:

Exactly the point of this thread. To make pets better.

Agree they need massive improvement, but having a separate build just for the pet, freely, is OP and unnecessary. If the traits are not free, then it’s pointless as they are better off to just fix the current traits and leave the system as is.

The only improvements really needed are; the ability to choose stats, fix the traits and AI. If they do this, we can be happy, but I highly doubt they would ever even consider making another entire trait system for the pet alone.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

StickerHappy.8052:

As I said no other class can their mechanic be disabled for 60 seconds = 30% less damage and a Useless GM trait for that matter.

So, to fix that, all they need to change is one line of code to bring the CD on pet death down. Then add a buff to EB for the pet, for instance; “Transfer 3 conditions to your pet. 10s CD. Your pet has -33% condition duration and is healed for 5% of it’s health when it gains a condition.”

Substance E.4852:

No other classes have to rely on barely passable AI that can’t attack/act and move at the same time for their mechanic either…

This is true, but that has nothing to do with traits, it’s a separate issue entirely and one they need to fix. Mesmer clones have the same AI too.

StickerHappy.8052:

Exactly the point of this thread. To make pets better.

Agree they need massive improvement, but having a separate build just for the pet, freely, is OP and unnecessary. If the traits are not free, then it’s pointless as they are better off to just fix the current traits and leave the system as is.

The only improvements really needed are; the ability to choose stats, fix the traits and AI. If they do this, we can be happy, but I highly doubt they would ever even consider making another entire trait system for the pet alone.

But I gotta say reworking pet traits is a lot of work too, Like you said on the other thread, Expertise Training is bad so I think having a pet tree + your stat suggestion would be great!

I only used that trait as an example, a lot of the pet based traits are bad…

And I mean how will it be OP? (the tree)

Not all pets will use Pet Prowess, why? Some have low base precision
Leech on attack is not game breaking too, if ever that helps alleviate the 60 sec pet down CD.
Pet Speed? Yes please.
and so on…

Yes, reworking traits is a big job, but it has to be done either way. Instead of expertise training giving +350 condi dmg, it could give +500 and +20% duration, or something better than 12.5dps to a bleed stack. Remember though that if we could trait for condition dmg on the pets, then we could get them to above 1200 with this trait.

It would be OP in the same way that a Mesmer would be OP if shatters and clones had their own trait tree. Say a mesmer builds for shatter DPS and uses no clone or shatter traits. Then they could open the shatter/clone trait tree and load it up with condition dmg and conditions that the clones/shatters would apply. That would be insanely OP. That is pretty much what having a seperate trait tree is. If a Ranger took all ranger traits, then could also apply even four traits to the pet as well, it would be TONS more powerful than it is currently and OP.

Say you used This build and then you could also open your pet screen, make both pets zerker and give them Malicious Training, Pet’s Prowess, Agility training and Companion’s Might. That would be madness.

As StickerHappy mentioned, some pets would not benefit from yielding certain traits as much as others due to their initial base stats.

Though, a simple tweak like what AEFA suggested would control overall stat points, capping out power, precision, vitality, and toughness at 600 with only 2 of those being able to reach the cap, while other stats remain at 300/30% cap before traits are figured in.

AEFA.9035:

Marksmanship should have the same Power + Condition duration etc… then for Beastmastery for every point invested should reduce pet cooldowns instead and healing power.

At that point, a Ranger would have to invest fully into their own BM traitline to reach the cap for 2 pet stats while integrating the speed training trait on the pet’s BM tree.

Pet traits are already sort of implemented … they are just the pet families.

Different pet families have different statlines as well as different abilities.

Particular pets have different F2 abilities differing from the others from the same pet family.

I wouldn’t be opposed to separate traits for pets, it could be done without being OP as it already is sort of done. If it was done this way though, I think the Beastmastery traitline would likely need a revamp as some of its traits would likely belong in the pet’s own options. In my mind, the Beastmastery trait would be changed to include those traits where the pet benefits the Ranger (and possibly their group) such as Vigor/Might/Quickness on swap, Heal on F2, etc. while things like bleed-on-crit and stability would be in the pet’s traits.

As mentioned, AI is the largest concern. Hopefully that gets changed to allow moving + attacking simultaneously.

@Heim Wondrouswall Sebrent

Okay this is what I proposed (along with the lines of Wonderwall) would look like.

Assuming we have a pet trait tree.

Not all pets would have Malicious Training on their tree, why? Some pet f2s are not affected by condition duration.

Not all pets would have Pet’s Prowess on their tree, why? Not all pets have high precision that would make use of this trait.

Not all pets would have Carnivorous Appetite Why? Some pets already have High Vitality to begin with, why would they need that? This is More for the Glass dps Pets.

Compassion Training Only for healing based pets
Expertise Training Only for Condition based pets

The ones that ALL of them would share would be:

• Agility Training
• Commanding Voice

So I do not get the reason why this idea would be OP, or Hard to Balance, moreover this would greatly INCREASE DIVERSITY of RANGERS and PETS and at the same time ENCOURAGE STRATEGICAL PLAYSTYLE via pet customization.

I don’t believe I said anything along the lines of it being OP aside from:

• “it could be done without being OP as it already is sort of done. "

I disagree with restricting which pets can get access to which traits. It would require more coding and provide little to not benefit. It would also limit diversity.

If you take Malicious Training and/or Expertise Training with a pet with no conditions then you’re in the same boat as someone who takes a similar trait but takes little to no conditions in their weapon set(s) and utilities. If people want to make this mistake, it is on them. No need to code in training wheels.

Pet’s Prowess is not completely useless for lower precision pets. It is simply “less useful”. It still provides a damage increase. It just provides a better one for pets with higher precision.

Compassion Training currently affects the Natural Healing grandmaster trait, so is currently useful even when taking pets with no healing skills.

Carnivorous Appetite could still be useful on a tanky pet. They’ll heal less than a pet with higher precision, but each heal may “go further” since a tanky pet has more toughness.

Sebrent.3625:

I don’t believe I said anything along the lines of it being OP aside from:

• “it could be done without being OP as it already is sort of done. "

I disagree with restricting which pets can get access to which traits. It would require more coding and provide little to not benefit. It would also limit diversity.

If you take Malicious Training and/or Expertise Training with a pet with no conditions then you’re in the same boat as someone who takes a similar trait but takes little to no conditions in their weapon set(s) and utilities. If people want to make this mistake, it is on them. No need to code in training wheels.

Pet’s Prowess is not completely useless for lower precision pets. It is simply “less useful”. It still provides a damage increase. It just provides a better one for pets with higher precision.

Compassion Training currently affects the Natural Healing grandmaster trait, so is currently useful even when taking pets with no healing skills.

Carnivorous Appetite could still be useful on a tanky pet. They’ll heal less than a pet with higher precision, but each heal may “go further” since a tanky pet has more toughness.

Good points, I just mentioned the idea because I think this would help balancing issues in the future.

Also I am not directing the OP idea at you Seb, that was directed at Heim.

Yes I do get your point with It is currently done, but The big Difference is that, when we get those traits removed from our Own Trait tree, We can now have Ranger Oriented traits, (Yes Please) and I do not have to waste 4 points in BM just to make my pet better or useful.

At the same, Pet traits are all over the board, which is ughh…

Please see a post I made over a year ago …

• https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Beastmastery-Math/first#post1974579/first

Those points are far from wasted, especially if you’re good at keeping your pet on your target. Faster pet swap and a beefier pet also help alleviate some of the “dead pet” issues as they reduce the occurrence as well as allow you to better mitigate it.

The Beastmastery traits aren’t all bad either. Might, Vigor, cripple from pet F2 (so awesome with Eagle/Hawk), pet bleeds on cripple (cats/birds love this), etc..

One nice advantage of pet traits being in multiple trees is that you can take all of them.
If they were all in the same tree, you’d only be able to pick 3 of those majors.
As it is, my pets can…

• Longer duration conditions
• Stronger condition damage
• Stronger crits
• Bleed on crit

… which is great on a cat/bird.

Sebrent.3625:

Please see a post I made over a year ago …

• https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Beastmastery-Math/first#post1974579/first

Those points are far from wasted, especially if you’re good at keeping your pet on your target. Faster pet swap and a beefier pet also help alleviate some of the “dead pet” issues as they reduce the occurrence as well as allow you to better mitigate it.

The Beastmastery traits aren’t all bad either. Might, Vigor, cripple from pet F2 (so awesome with Eagle/Hawk), pet bleeds on cripple (cats/birds love this), etc..

One nice advantage of pet traits being in multiple trees is that you can take all of them.
If they were all in the same tree, you’d only be able to pick 3 of those majors.
As it is, my pets can…

• Longer duration conditions
• Stronger condition damage
• Stronger crits
• Bleed on crit

… which is great on a cat/bird.

Ah I see, good points so far, I only play pvp so I would have a hard time traiting this with a team (although I can, its just a matter of efficiency) Your post also ties to that pet stats, I wish they had Healing power and Condition damage as base stats.

I agree, it would be very nice if Beastmastery affected all pet stats, not just a few. I think this is a result of release being rushed and they just haven’t had the time to get back around to it [yet]. I need to double-check it again since back when I did those numbers I don’t believe we had Ferocity; still just straight crit damage back then.

Many people forget about the Quickening Zephyr grandmaster trait.

• 3s of Quickness on a 16s cooldown = 18.75% up-time (at best … i.e. if used as soon as it’s ready)
• Quickness is +50% attack speed
• 18.75% * 50% = 9.375% increase (at best).

That quickness is also awesome for stomping/rezzing … as well as proccing (more hits in a shorter period of time).

Not just all pet stats, IF some pets are condition damage oriented, we can just deduct points from the power stat on them and add condition damage. Same as Healing power.

Because if BM affected all stats but you had 0 Condition damage and Healing power to begin with, you need full 6 pts in BM just to have +300 on both of those.