Guild Wars 2

Alright so those of you that know me know the deal by now. There was a balance patch, there is a new PvP season, time to discuss build options.

Granted, while the changes seemed miniscule, they had a pretty big effect on metabuild options even though the rest of the classes builds haven’t changed (meaning no new matchups to learn).

So what changed? The might stacking build from pet swapping using NM/BM/Druid no longer works. More accurately, because of the change to Zephyrs Speed, it now provides quickness and superspeed instead of providing any might.

This is problematic, because it’s a very large damage drop, and after repetitive PvP nerfs (regen duration, natural regen only ticking once every 3 seconds) targeted at hitting the common build setup, it makes the BM traitline really only desirable for traited shouts.

Granted, shouts are still incredibly strong, and Strength of the Pack is still basically mandatory as the elite. With Trooper/Soldier Runes being a stronger option now with SoR providing a ticking source of Astral Force generation, Shouts are also a good teamfight option, as well as still being an excellent dueling option.

Ultimately, there are at least 2-3 build options now with no clear front runners anymore (as far as I can tell at this point.

All of that aside, build options (I’m on mobile so I apologize for text format):

Amulet:

• Menders

Sigils:

• Courage (NM and/or shouts)
• Battle (NM and/or shouts)
• Purging
• Cleansing
• Energy
• Revocation

Runes:

• Soldiers/Troopers
• Water

Pets:

• Smokescale
• Bristleback/Wyvern (Electric preferred)

Weapons:

• Staff
• Sword/Dagger or Sword/Warhorn or Longbow

Skillbar (only variables):

• We Heal as One or Troll Unguent
• Protect Me or Quickening Zephyr
  (The rest of the skillbar is SoR, SoS, SotP. For a shout based build an argument could be made for Guard over SoR)

Trait combos:

• NM/BM/Druid
• WS/BM/Druid
• WS/NM/Druid
• MM/BM/Druid (questionable)
• MM/WS/Druid (questionable)

So far, these are my observations and experiences. I think it’s good we have build variety but so far I haven’t been able to identify if there is a “best” build of the options.

Questions/discussion time.

Got some build links up:

NM/BM/Druid: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAW8YnUqA1Ci9rAOsActglOBzJwFAKcPtgQ1CDelGTzplMtzA-TpxHQByrMAAOCAJ8BAosDCQAvAA6Y/BA

WS/BM/Druid: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAW8YnUqA1Ci9rAOsActglJBD+nWUbqPBha1HrJA84mAlMtzA-TpxHQBA4IAIvyAJ8BAosDCgO2fIgXAAA

WS/NM/Druid: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNBmYDbkQFKZx+VwhF4axykgB/TLqN1mAwjbC4U5ucZuSm2ZA-TZxHQB+Y/hE+AAAwRAIgXAA5VGAA

These are just the core 3. With MM you’d run the utilities in which the cooldown trait affects in the associated partnered traitline. 311 with BM and no LB, 313 with LB. 111 with WS and no LB, 113 with LB. LB also gets Ancient Seeds in Druid.

Also there are many effective permutations of these setups, so if anybody can add any information/experience to help determine if there could potentially be a “better/best” version of the build, please feel free to share.

This all is about creating and running the best build(s) we can until balance gets jostled again.

I’ve been running the first version with a couple minor changes….that you will probably disgree with.

Instead of OH dagger, I have been running Warhorn. I like having the extra blast finisher and on demand boons/damage. At the cost of an evade.

The next change is, instead of running Zephyr’s speed, I have been running beastly warden, which works really well on the smokescale to help me survive.

Is it great? Meh it’s ok.

terrorshard.3854:

I’ve been running the first version with a couple minor changes….that you will probably disgree with.

Instead of OH dagger, I have been running Warhorn. I like having the extra blast finisher and on demand boons/damage. At the cost of an evade.

The next change is, instead of running Zephyr’s speed, I have been running beastly warden, which works really well on the smokescale to help me survive.

Is it great? Meh it’s ok.

After the most recent update I like Warhorn a lot more now since it effectively replaces the might stacking that Zephyrs was lost. It’s definitely interchangeable. I tend to run the cleanse on dodge with that setup though, and Warhorn more with the WS/NM build, but again, options haha.

I’ve also been playing around with the idea of Beastly Warden as well (Electric Wyvern over Bristleback). It’s also just a toss up for me, but I’ve ended up just enjoying the super speed for kiting/mobility more since it fits my playstyle a little better.

Either way, I think we have a ton of options in this meta, and I personally haven’t experienced anything outperforming anything else.

So no, I don’t disagree at all!

i can’t say about PvP but in WvW MM\WS\DR is not good for roaming but you are forced to stay in WS for the cleanse because of the condi spam Anet is forcing down our throat. BM with trooper and one cleanse by shout doesn’t work either.

Without cover conditions (at least 2) Ancient seeds is useless against any experienced player yet the only available option.

And yes i’m salty.

Yeah in WvW I run very differently. Full Minstrels for my guild composition, and I swap the trinkets and weapons to Zealots for roaming, with Staff/LB.

I was still running the NM/BM/Druid setup prepatch, and because it was open world I was fine just playing the range game since in WvW you’re not forced to sit in the cancer area.

Now, there’s really not a reason to run NM over WS since they nerfed my Healing Power to Power conversion trait, and even with no Survival skills I’d still get more benefit/function from the WS traits and Zephyrs Speed (plus a pulsing slow field is insanely good dps reduction for enemies in melee).

But yeah I haven’t built “damage oriented” in WvW for a long time. I don’t “feel” the benefit as much as I do built for survival, I never run into the situation where I can’t get a kill that I otherwise would have if I was full damage. The reverse is true though, there are absolutely situations I wouldn’t have survived otherwise if not for my build.

Very good summary overall.

The only thing I would add is that the ws/nm variant is 100% ahead of the others in terms of efficiency, but in terms of queueing and carrying ranked, there may be better options that utilise longbow, depending on the situation

I miss the good old days where you could go yolo on far and kill ppl 2v1 with Mender Druid. It probably had to stop at some point. Also players learned how to avoid the roots and how to deal with the pets. Well at least for farming pips shoutbow seems alright nowadays.

I really hope there wont be a “pet meta” like in HOT for the upcoming soulbeast. Catching players offguard thanks to multiple viable pets would be really fun.

I am using Core Ranger. MM, WS and BM. It might not be top level but is a lot of fun.

Pvt Frosty.6973:

Very good summary overall.

The only thing I would add is that the ws/nm variant is 100% ahead of the others in terms of efficiency, but in terms of queueing and carrying ranked, there may be better options that utilise longbow, depending on the situation

Yeah it’s trait efficiency and Healing per Second potential is insane.

Without coordination I think your statement is accurate though, that without the coordination the tradeoff for the build is that it doesn’t generate momentum very quickly, although it’s very effective at rotation and stalling, and you aren’t going to be losing any 1v1s.

For LB…. It’s difficult. A good portion of the time I feel like the enemy team comp beats the weapon choice out of the gate. Tempest + Scrapper = only 1 effective weapon in teamfights. You end up feeling relegated to offpoint positioning and fighting, and sidepoint matchups. And you’re already good at sidepoint regardless of whether you have LB so it isn’t a unique function (although you can get the decap much much quicker in a duel).

Anyhow yeah, it’s not like I need to respond to you directly, you understand lol. Just sharing thoughts. Speaking of which, and you can clarify/correct this if needed:

When he says WS/NM is more efficient, he’s talking trait synergy and functionality investment (for anybody else following this conversation). You get the most output and interaction between all of the moving pieces of the build with this setup.

Pvt Frosty.6973:

Very good summary overall.

The only thing I would add is that the ws/nm variant is 100% ahead of the others in terms of efficiency, but in terms of queueing and carrying ranked, there may be better options that utilise longbow, depending on the situation

I wonder if that WS/NM could work as condi bunker since I think the HP from Mender is still overkill.

Something like that ( ignore sigills for now ):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAsYWnEqAVsitsA2sAUtglJBD+nWUfqOVuKQmrJA0AmAl480A-TpwOABZXGAg9HAA

With that you may be able to actually kill ppl in a reasonable amount of time while still being pretty tanky. Proably using Wyvern over Bristleback and using SoS over the glyph could be better since your pets deliver enough CCs to trigger roots.

jcbroe.4329:

Yeah in WvW I run very differently. Full Minstrels for my guild composition, and I swap the trinkets and weapons to Zealots for roaming, with Staff/LB.

Minstrels and celestial is what I run – fine tune with accessories.

I wish they would look at conditions and armor stat and find a balance vs. the number of opponents. I find it odd that we have to run everything under the sun to limit the effects of just as much as increase duration.

Interesting enough – thanks for the thread because I do not do much sPvP and these look like a starting point.

Pvt Frosty.6973:

Very good summary overall.

The only thing I would add is that the ws/nm variant is 100% ahead of the others in terms of efficiency, but in terms of queueing and carrying ranked, there may be better options that utilise longbow, depending on the situation

I’m curious Frosty…what would you consider a good carry build for solo ranked queue? I have been playing my ranger more in sPvP and I am a little bit torn on what role I should be filling as a ranger to carry in solo queue. I can do pretty well with an offensive LB build sniping out priority targets in teamfights and bursting in a +1 but I wonder if I could carry better by playing a more bunker/support type build.

The might-stacking nerf is a fact. You need to invest completely on might stacking runes-sigils-weapons (warhorn) to get similar power as we had before. Without them, the dps drop is very noticeable.
Yesterday I was thinking “is We Heal As One mandatory now?” I mean, we used it to get a lot of boons, especially might stacks. But now?

Anyway, the WS traitline is just amazing. So much protection-regen and condi clears. But that Allies Aid on the NM traitline….so much support…and the protection…Also we can’t drop BM cause…cooldowns,regen and swiftness, you know. I think right now ranger is just subpar to engi.

kappa.2036:

The might-stacking nerf is a fact. You need to invest completely on might stacking runes-sigils-weapons (warhorn) to get similar power as we had before. Without them, the dps drop is very noticeable.
Yesterday I was thinking “is We Heal As One mandatory now?” I mean, we used it to get a lot of boons, especially might stacks. But now?

Anyway, the WS traitline is just amazing. So much protection-regen and condi clears. But that Allies Aid on the NM traitline….so much support…and the protection…Also we can’t drop BM cause…cooldowns,regen and swiftness, you know. I think right now ranger is just subpar to engi.

Well running warhorn over dagger solves most of the problems in both situations you’ve listed really.

In the NM/BM/Druid build, running warhorn gets the might “back” into the build.

In the NM/WS/Druid build, running traited warhorn and water runes with the TU/QZ slots gets you your utility cooldowns, swiftness, and regen.

Also running the MM/BM/Druid build gets the boons back in some semblance with Clarion Bond + We Heal as One.

Basically ANet created build diversity with 1 single change that makes each build version have a “specialty” of some sort.

…but yeah I’m not necessarily happy about it either lol.

beatthedown.2651:

Pvt Frosty.6973:

Very good summary overall. […]

I wonder if that WS/NM could work as condi bunker since I think the HP from Mender is still overkill.

[….]

It won’t. You lack the movespeed as well as the necessary condi application pressure and frequency to make any sort of investment into condi damage useless. The HP from mender’s is never overkill because there is no decreasing rate of return on scaling, and your healing values in caf scale very well with healing power

Kerivek.5740:

Pvt Frosty.6973:

Very good summary overall. […]

I’m curious Frosty…what would you consider a good carry build for solo ranked queue? I have been playing my ranger more in sPvP and I am a little bit torn on what role I should be filling as a ranger to carry in solo queue. I can do pretty well with an offensive LB build sniping out priority targets in teamfights and bursting in a +1 but I wonder if I could carry better by playing a more bunker/support type build.

It really depends on the people you play with. Personally I often queue with dps (rev/thief) which means that someone who can hold 1v1s is the most complimentary, so i go for something like this most of the time: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJATWjEqQJL2vCOsAXLWmEsmAwjbCA/TLqPVnKXFIzVylSD-TpxHQByrMw3eAAnZ/B/dBAS4hAAAHBAA

When I’m solo, I just base it off of the comps/the people I know from each specific game.

kappa.2036:

I think right now ranger is just subpar to engi.

I wonder why you would say that? I’m not saying either isn’t viable, but to quote Thijsken (one of the best engis in EU next to Zan) word for word: “What the kitten is the point of taking any sort of engi, when you can just take druid instead”

@Pvt Frosty This is my opinion: druid can juke enemies A LOT with stealth and mobility. It’s a solid class, with very good support and also nice 1v1 capabilities. I think both engi and ranger are good in solo/duoq, don’t get me wrong
But, and i repeat, this is MY OPINION, in a 5 v 5 premade, the class can be countered easily. A thief can just remove your stab with 1 skill, engi has reveal. A good player can block/evade your attacks after your stealth so he can get the point. Dps got nerfed hard and now is even more difficult to get a kill since our personal dps is bad and our pet skills are easily dodgeable (or reflectable if we use bristle).
In my perspective, Engi looks more solid and has better impact in the game, atleast at higher levels with coordinated people. But hey, i’m not saying that ranger is bad, absolutely. Let’s say this, if ranger is 9/10, engi is 10/10. If you think the opposite, no problem, everyone has their opinions

kappa.2036:

@Pvt Frosty This is my opinion: druid can juke enemies A LOT with stealth and mobility. It’s a solid class, with very good support and also nice 1v1 capabilities. I think both engi and ranger are good in solo/duoq, don’t get me wrong
But, and i repeat, this is MY OPINION, in a 5 v 5 premade, the class can be countered easily. A thief can just remove your stab with 1 skill, engi has reveal. A good player can block/evade your attacks after your stealth so he can get the point. Dps got nerfed hard and now is even more difficult to get a kill since our personal dps is bad and our pet skills are easily dodgeable (or reflectable if we use bristle).
In my perspective, Engi looks more solid and has better impact in the game, atleast at higher levels with coordinated people. But hey, i’m not saying that ranger is bad, absolutely. Let’s say this, if ranger is 9/10, engi is 10/10. If you think the opposite, no problem, everyone has their opinions

That’s fair, I was merely curious as to why you would think that. As you say, everyone has their own opinion and this forum is merely for sharing our opinions with each other right?

Heres mine from playing at higher levels and with coordinated players:

Your assessment is not wrong, however you do come to the wrong conclusions.

Yes, assuming full cooldowns, engi is generally known to have a better time at dealing with thief outnumbers.

And yes, druid has had its damage nerfed with the removal of mightstacking and the removal of flat boon duration for the NM line.

However, it has also had its sustain buffed by a full tonne. What this means is that druid does not lose any 1v1, in fact it does not even need to use celestial avatar form to sustain its 1v1s because the sustain even without it is just unreal. This also means, that where before you had to swap to and camp staff alot, now you can camp sword for longer, which increases your effective dps and point pressure significantly.

This means that a) suddenly druid has a MUCH easier time dealing with thief and being outnumbered in general and b) druid loses no caps if played correctly (of course you cans till get knocked off point if you dont pay attention.

Having covered those 2 weaknesses and keeping in mind that druid is both more mobile and offers more support for its allies, I would consider that considering top tier competitive (meaning organised) play, druid is a solid 9/10 and engi falls somewhere in the 7/10 range.

Yes, this is just my opinion and experiences may vary.

Hey Frosty,

Just curious on your opinion since I’m trying to gauge where I sit on the topic. You’re basically of the opinion that BM is no longer as strong of an option as running the WS/NM combo, right?

Essentially, I’m back and forth on running WS/BM/Druid with shouts and either Trooper or Water Runes or WS/NM/Druid with Survival and Water Runes. I think that I’m getting my own bias as feedback when I evaluate how I felt playing as each.

Like, I feel like the passive offensive boosts, shortened pet swap time and additional tankiness from Natural Healing and stats, and active ability to get Protection from Protect Me and Dodging to benefit from Rugged Growth and then extend the duration with the Heal makes it a slightly more offensive but equally sustainable variant (you get condi cleanse from the Pet Swap too, and superspeed, which is nice).

Granted, there’s no might stacking without the warhorn, so without it the offensive difference is probably more slight than I expect and I feel S/D is wanted even more without Protective Ward so I can capitalize on the active defense portion of the build (although if warhorn would give it the boost it needs to make it competitive or offensively stronger than that’s the route I’d go).

Idk, I “like” both builds but that’s subjective and I want to be as efficient and competitive as possible.

(Bonus question; factoring in that sometimes swapping the sword set to a LB is needed for solo queue, on which build do you think it would compliment better? I like the defenses of WS/NM but I also really like the pet swap superspeed with bow and that I can still get swiftness which leaves the runeslot open).

jcbroe.4329:

Hey Frosty,

Just curious on your opinion since I’m trying to gauge where I sit on the topic. You’re basically of the opinion that BM is no longer as strong of an option as running the WS/NM combo, right?

Essentially, I’m back and forth on running WS/BM/Druid with shouts and either Trooper or Water Runes or WS/NM/Druid with Survival and Water Runes. I think that I’m getting my own bias as feedback when I evaluate how I felt playing as each.

Like, I feel like the passive offensive boosts, shortened pet swap time and additional tankiness from Natural Healing and stats, and active ability to get Protection from Protect Me and Dodging to benefit from Rugged Growth and then extend the duration with the Heal makes it a slightly more offensive but equally sustainable variant (you get condi cleanse from the Pet Swap too, and superspeed, which is nice).

Granted, there’s no might stacking without the warhorn, so without it the offensive difference is probably more slight than I expect and I feel S/D is wanted even more without Protective Ward so I can capitalize on the active defense portion of the build (although if warhorn would give it the boost it needs to make it competitive or offensively stronger than that’s the route I’d go).

Idk, I “like” both builds but that’s subjective and I want to be as efficient and competitive as possible.

(Bonus question; factoring in that sometimes swapping the sword set to a LB is needed for solo queue, on which build do you think it would compliment better? I like the defenses of WS/NM but I also really like the pet swap superspeed with bow and that I can still get swiftness which leaves the runeslot open).

I agree and unfortunately I cannot offer you a way out in terms of one being definitely better than the other.

I think you even place a little too much value on the might from warhorn. Personally speaking, both builds probably have their place. And in a condi comp, the beastmaster version probably has the upper hand too.

I am similarly conflicted between taking NM or BM as the third traitline (which is why I quite often just drop druid to be able to run both :>)

I think what it comes down to is taking the traitline where you lose the least, and to me thats NM right now because of the ability to still use the search and rescue trait without losing the regen/protection/swiftness uptime. However, using BM with protect me (and maybe even guard) does give you a very defensive setup as well. I did want to try to drop SoS and just take guard instead in a BM build since druid right now is already a very sturdy class.

Darn. And ha to the warhorn point, you’re right, I’m probably trying to recreate what was lost too hard instead of just adapting.

I’d say we’ll figure it out with time… But how much time do we really have? Lol.

I guess one thing I can play around with is how “free” sigils and runes are with each build. And at this point I might just default my build to WS/BM/Druid when I’m using LB, if for nothing else than to be decisive lol.

In your situation (Frosty) I know straight up that a NM build is better than a no NM build. The team Support from the rez alone when you’re in 5v5 tourny play is gamechanging with coordination.

In ranked queue…. Well, even in the highest divisions you feel like it doesn’t make a difference because you pick people up just for them to be right back down again (for the whole game), so focusing your build on yourself can actually make a difference since you know that you can carry better that way (though the one time you do drop NM you end up on a team where your team is competent and it would’ve made a difference lol).

Idk, I’m rambling at this point.

I’ll figure it out lol.

kappa.2036:

in a 5 v 5 premade, the class can be countered easily. A thief can just remove your stab with 1 skill.
A good player can block/evade your attacks after your stealth so he can get the point. Dps got nerfed hard and now is even more difficult to get a kill since our personal dps is bad and our pet skills are easily dodgeable (or reflectable if we use bristle).

Mind you I am not playing in full 5v5 premade matches.
A good thief, in Mid-Gold, can take me out of the group fights.

Pvt Frosty.6973:

Here’s mine from playing at higher levels and with coordinated players.

However, it has also had its sustain buffed by a full tonne. What this means is that druid does not lose any 1v1, in fact it does not even need to use celestial avatar form to sustain its 1v1s because the sustain even without it is just unreal. This also means, that where before you had to swap to and camp staff alot, now you can camp sword for longer, which increases your effective dps and point pressure significantly.

This means that a) suddenly druid has a MUCH easier time dealing with thief and being outnumbered in general and b) druid loses no caps if played correctly (of course you cans till get knocked off point if you dont pay attention.

Yes, this is just my opinion and experiences may vary.

If you don’t use druid, what weapons are you using?

Do you think the same builds that work at higher levels perform as well in Non Coordinated teams?

While playing with a friend who is not a 1v1 class(necro) , I’ve compensated with my own unconventional utility choices.

I finally got around to completing my placements (my new work schedule is crazy) for the season, and after placing top 20 (1748 NA) as far as rating scale is concerned (don’t have minimum games) I can confidently say that the WS/NM/BM build is THE build to carry with, no LB needed.

For reference: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNBmYDbkQFKZx+VwhF4axykg1EAecTA4faRtp6U5ucZuSk+YA-TpxHQB+Y/BldQAS4FAQelBAwRA4bPAAA

NA especially looks like it’s going to have a TON of S/D condi thieves this season, and with cooldown management I could comfortably deal with them, and I only make note of them because they’re the only threatening matchup.

Some things that led me to deciding that this build was the build at higher competition levels of players:

• CC interupting We Heal As One. That long cast time was getting counterplayed.
• Low impact from the loss of BM. I didn’t find that I was losing enough damage for it to be a deciding factor in fights be not taking it.
• Sturdy. I feel better suited to teamfighting without having to kite on and off the point.

In the end I just ended up feeling like I could do more with this build than the other setups I listed when I started the thread. I was absolutely carrying matchups.

Easily a top tier pick and build, I can’t recommend it enough, I had a great experience with it.

Grats on top 20.

warhorn *cough favoritism *cough :o

sigil of agility on staff— I thought that sigil would get used by CA, or is that the point?

Do you think Muddy Terrain may be a good skill to include? If you have Soften The Fall traited, you can potentially keep the slow condition on the point permanently and it’s additional condi cleanse and Fury. Only issue is what to drop… QZ/SoS/SoR are so good.

EnderzShadow.2506:

If you don’t use druid, what weapons are you using?

Sword/warhorn – Longbow is what I mostly run

EnderzShadow.2506:

Grats on top 20.

warhorn *cough favoritism *cough :o

sigil of agility on staff— I thought that sigil would get used by CA, or is that the point?

Sigil of agility is mostly taken because it ensures 100% swiftness uptime when playing water rune. The quickness is good tho, but more so for your pet than yourself.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Do you think Muddy Terrain may be a good skill to include? If you have Soften The Fall traited, you can potentially keep the slow condition on the point permanently and it’s additional condi cleanse and Fury. Only issue is what to drop… QZ/SoS/SoR are so good.

You’ve said it yourself, if we had a 4th slot, it would be a strong contender for sure lol

EnderzShadow.2506:

Grats on top 20.

warhorn *cough favoritism *cough :o

sigil of agility on staff— I thought that sigil would get used by CA, or is that the point?

Thanks! Trust me when I say I’m more in shock/awe than anything else lol.

But yeah, I saw Frosty already responded so I’ll just confirming what he said; Sigil of Agility was only chosen for the swiftness uptime.

I was using Purging/Revocation on staff and Purging/Courage and while I’m certain they were having some sort of effect I really just didn’t notice them. I notice Agility. That’s the only explanation behind the decision I have haha.

But yeah, the quickness never hurts on staff/CA either. It can make your heals come out faster, which in the case of CA can mean the difference between being interrupted or not, and players watching Druids that have interrupts have gotten very good and knowing when to use them.

Pvt Frosty.6973:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Do you think Muddy Terrain may be a good skill to include? If you have Soften The Fall traited, you can potentially keep the slow condition on the point permanently and it’s additional condi cleanse and Fury. Only issue is what to drop… QZ/SoS/SoR are so good.

You’ve said it yourself, if we had a 4th slot, it would be a strong contender for sure lol

I think I may test this out when I have a chance, MT is good enough to slot now and I’ve always wanted it to be due to the low CD. It pulses 11 times, so combined with StF and WK it’s perma slow on the point and cannot be cleansed, which I think may be better than SoS in the long run for damage reduction anyway. You lose the get out of jail free card, but you may not even need it much if everyone is doing that much less damage to you.

MT does indeed slow the pace of the fight.

CC is good, more is better—for fun, I took the glyph of Tides+equality and entangle—add in the longbow-4= mayhem.

It’s not ideal, obviously, but the impact on mid was substantial.

I really can’t justify subbing in WS for BM…I feel like you are giving up so much just to get a tiny bit more condition removal.

terrorshard.3854:

I really can’t justify subbing in WS for BM…I feel like you are giving up so much just to get a tiny bit more condition removal.

you get a ton more condi removal. TU interacts really nicely with Soften the Fall, so you never have to slot MT. Lesser MT just allows you to bunker a lot better. you get more prot, and more vigor. QZ increases our burst quite a bit.

BM does next to nothing for our damage output.

Ya frosty, jcbroe this build is crazy strong, played 3 games in (scrub gold) and 3 v1d a Necro, rev and gaurdian, ended up tilting the team, since I got two hate wispers post match, during witch like, I had rotate since they wouldnt go to their home and would stop and turn around when seeing me.

The only issue I’ve found with this build is when you get chained cc and are plus 1 by a rev who knows what he’s doing (using LR and MT instead of stone and quick zeph) (update plat now on a 11 game win streak too)

mistsim.2748:

terrorshard.3854:

I really can’t justify subbing in WS for BM…I feel like you are giving up so much just to get a tiny bit more condition removal.

you get a ton more condi removal. TU interacts really nicely with Soften the Fall, so you never have to slot MT. Lesser MT just allows you to bunker a lot better. you get more prot, and more vigor. QZ increases our burst quite a bit.

BM does next to nothing for our damage output.

QZ seems pointless, what burst? Sword auto attack? Staff Autoattack?

Might as well run LR at that point.

terrorshard.3854:

mistsim.2748:

terrorshard.3854:

I really can’t justify subbing in WS for BM…I feel like you are giving up so much just to get a tiny bit more condition removal.

you get a ton more condi removal. TU interacts really nicely with Soften the Fall, so you never have to slot MT. Lesser MT just allows you to bunker a lot better. you get more prot, and more vigor. QZ increases our burst quite a bit.

BM does next to nothing for our damage output.

QZ seems pointless, what burst? Sword auto attack? Staff Autoattack?

Might as well run LR at that point.

what do you mean what burst? everything you do gets animated faster. so WH#4, sword, and staff spam timed with Smoke Assault. it’s better than having no quickness at all. the build is already extremely defensive so running LR is pointless.

Eleazar.9478:

The only issue I’ve found with this build is when you get chained cc and are plus 1 by a rev who knows what he’s doing (using LF and MT instead of stone and quick zeph) (update plat now on a 11 game win streak too)

LF?

EnderzShadow.2506:

Eleazar.9478:

The only issue I’ve found with this build is when you get chained cc and are plus 1 by a rev who knows what he’s doing (using LF and MT instead of stone and quick zeph) (update plat now on a 11 game win streak too)

LF?

Lightning Freelexes.

thought so thx

needs more letters to post my deepest gratitude

Rugged Growth is why we’re going WS (the replacement for Bark Skin). The amount of sustain you get when paired with NM is so much more important than the relatively unimportant loss of what BM offers (unimportant as in it hasn’t changed my ability or speed in which I can kill things).

That’s really the main reason; it’s just that strong.

Besides that, QZ over LR for a few reasons. LR displaces you and the condi removal triggers at the end of the animation. You want to be able to maintain your position and have the defensive benefits activate in full immediately on use. Also, if you were going to decide to use it for mobility, that’s 6 seconds of superspeed on top of sword 2 and staff 3. You can be across the map before people can decide how to react to your presence (I’ve done things like on Legacy I held the far cap against 3 til I had to leave, left to the midfight, outnumbered the 2 there with my team and won teamfight and then while 2 from far tried to follow me into the fight I stealth rotated back into far and held the still neutral point).

I can make an entire enemy team play around the fact that I exist and can rotate better than them alone, and that helped me flat out carry matches I may have lost otherwise.

jcbroe.4329:

Rugged Growth is why we’re going WS (the replacement for Bark Skin). The amount of sustain you get when paired with NM is so much more important than the relatively unimportant loss of what BM offers (unimportant as in it hasn’t changed my ability or speed in which I can kill things).

That’s really the main reason; it’s just that strong.

Besides that, QZ over LR for a few reasons. LR displaces you and the condi removal triggers at the end of the animation. You want to be able to maintain your position and have the defensive benefits activate in full immediately on use. Also, if you were going to decide to use it for mobility, that’s 6 seconds of superspeed on top of sword 2 and staff 3. You can be across the map before people can decide how to react to your presence (I’ve done things like on Legacy I held the far cap against 3 til I had to leave, left to the midfight, outnumbered the 2 there with my team and won teamfight and then while 2 from far tried to follow me into the fight I stealth rotated back into far and held the still neutral point).

I can make an entire enemy team play around the fact that I exist and can rotate better than them alone, and that helped me flat out carry matches I may have lost otherwise.

Will definetely try this one out.
A few questions regarding one choice.

Why no Shared Anguish? That random scumbag safestomp seems way more valuable for carrying the average random pug than the poison trait. Usually I end up as the “stomper” when playing with randoms in platinum queue since I can sustain heavy cleave. Of course thats not ideal (also lots of RNG) but my usual teammate does not stomp or cleave. This trait is also extremely helpful against heavy opening strikes in the first midfight since you win a bit of time.

terrorshard.3854:

mistsim.2748:

terrorshard.3854:

I really can’t justify subbing in WS for BM…I feel like you are giving up so much just to get a tiny bit more condition removal.

you get a ton more condi removal. TU interacts really nicely with Soften the Fall, so you never have to slot MT. Lesser MT just allows you to bunker a lot better. you get more prot, and more vigor. QZ increases our burst quite a bit.

BM does next to nothing for our damage output.

QZ seems pointless, what burst? Sword auto attack? Staff Autoattack?

Might as well run LR at that point.

Good questions terrorshard. jcbroe has answered alot of them already so ill just touch on a few more points.

As jcbroe says, with rugged growth WS got buffed so hard, that now it isn’t a question of whether to take WS or BM its a question of whether to take NM or BM alongside it, and in that regard NM wins by a longshot.

You might not think it possible, but the build actually has more pressure than the old NM/BM druid did. This is because of permanent poison uptime as well as the ability to facetank alot of damage by camping sword in any 1v1 without ever needing CAF or dropping below 50% hp. On top of that, WS/NM beats NM/BM by a long shot in a 1v1 (not by killing, but by making it a free +1). To cement my point, in our scrims yesterday I played against xomi who played the old build for a while (xomi is according to the power ranking supposed to be better than me), so I can tell you first hand that the WS/NM version is better.

As for QZ, you are right, the burst isn’t insane. But quickness helps in other ways by ensuring it is harder to get interrupted and the super speed is nice too. However, you dont have to play it. I personally would rather take the Daze Glyph or protect me over lightning reflexes since LR puts you off point. They are all valid substitutes though.

beatthedown.2651:

jcbroe.4329:

blips

Will definetely try this one out.
A few questions regarding one choice.

Why no Shared Anguish? That random scumbag safestomp seems way more valuable for carrying the average random pug than the poison trait. Usually I end up as the “stomper” when playing with randoms in platinum queue since I can sustain heavy cleave. Of course thats not ideal (also lots of RNG) but my usual teammate does not stomp or cleave. This trait is also extremely helpful against heavy opening strikes in the first midfight since you win a bit of time.

A few reasons: shared anguish interrupts pet actions, which may be crucial at times, especially with the wyvern itll put its skills on full cooldown. you could argue that by not going bm interrupting your pet is less impactful since its less of a dps loss. which is true, but the increased cooldowns is a thing too.

on top of that tho, no 1v1 really has a chance, you almost guarantee poison every heal skill, even engi and chrono. the new build is packed with aids condis, poison, cripple, slow, immob, vuln and weakness. ALOT of them. without the permanent poison, you lose alot of the pressure.

On a more unrelated note, I have tried out healing spring during scrims yesterday. It is certainly very awesome, definitely stronger vs condi comps and weaker vs power comps (if you will be 1v1 vs power and likely ganked by power too, take TU still for sure!)

Pvt Frosty.6973:

EnderzShadow.2506:

If you don’t use druid, what weapons are you using?

Sword/warhorn – Longbow is what I mostly run

EnderzShadow.2506:

Grats on top 20.

warhorn *cough favoritism *cough :o

sigil of agility on staff— I thought that sigil would get used by CA, or is that the point?

Sigil of agility is mostly taken because it ensures 100% swiftness uptime when playing water rune. The quickness is good tho, but more so for your pet than yourself.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Do you think Muddy Terrain may be a good skill to include? If you have Soften The Fall traited, you can potentially keep the slow condition on the point permanently and it’s additional condi cleanse and Fury. Only issue is what to drop… QZ/SoS/SoR are so good.

You’ve said it yourself, if we had a 4th slot, it would be a strong contender for sure lol

Sorry, returning player here – I haven’t played for 5 years since release and I just got back into the groove of things. I’m a slow learner and I’m not entirely following this conversation.

I’ve been reading all sorts of PvP resources and trying to figure things out – I’ve been following the Power survival ranger build (LB-GS) on meta battle and I’ve been having okay success with it (I made it to low gold). Now I’m reading that you should go S/WH instead? I’m pretty interested to see what 3 specs you’re running.

There was an expansion since you were gone, Heart of Thorns. It introduced another Trait Line-Druid which can use staff and Druid skills, I’m sure you’ve seen these. z

Another expansion is coming soon. Currently we are in a odd period where they made some changes to the traits in anticipation of the coming expansion.

It looks like you stopped reading somewhere in the middle of the thread and are looking at those three specs. Ignore that—these 2 builds are mentioned later.

If you have Heart of Thorns the following 2 builds will work.

IF you don’t you could use the same builds with Longbow/Sword Warhorn and swap out druid for BM.

Any questions, I am sure that jc and frost could fill in the gaps

JC is running
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNBmYDbkQFKZx+VwhF4axykg1EAecTA4faRtp6U5ucZuSk+YA-TpxHQB+Y/BldQAS4FAQelBAwRA4bPAAA

^Support mid and back cap.

Frosty is running lb/staff (similar setup)
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJATWjEqQJL2vCOsAXLWmEsmAwjbCA/TLqPVnKXFIzVylSD-TpxHQByrMw3eAAnZ/B/dBAS4hAAAHBAA

Thank you Enderz!

I have the expac and I’ve played the druid sPvP build on metabattle – however I really suck ass at the game so it didn’t work out too well, I’m just relearning things with the Power GS/LB build. My goal is to be as high impact as possible with as high win % as possible so I do plan on going Druid/x eventually.

At the moment, my biggest problem are thieves/warriors/guardians/necros

-Thieves can chase me endlessly and eventually burst me down.
-Warriors seem to dish out tons of damage and have tons of self sustain – I’m not sure how to read the game too well yet so I’m not particularly sure on how to counter them.
-Guardians just don’t seem to die and eventually wittle me down.
-Necros have this 2nd life bar that makes them almost unkillable

The rest I can usually kite/outplay.

I’ve been playing the game for a while myself, albeit casually and I still have some of the same issues.

Some things to consider,
-knowing your role in a team fight (supporting mid, +1’ing and back capping)

-kiting (and using terrain) MLG players do this extraordinarily well.

-Knowing what class specs are pointless to fight

If you can duel friends who play the classes you have trouble with, over and over again—-that is a huge help

If you aren’t embarassed to ask, you can go to the forums and simply ask how to beat them. Plenty of people do this and a lot of good advice is given.

Spirited Arrival > Evasive purity for a non-warhorn build? I think with WS you already have enough condi cleanse, while spirited arrival causes vigor (so more often protection from dodge rolls and heals from rugged growth).

So I’ve been playing with these latest builds. I know I have a lot of learning to do to improve (I’m in low gold right now) I seem to do better with long bow rather than s/wh. (Always have staff loaded.) I love warhorn but the sword just seems lacking to me. I feel like I would do better with a melee weapon on point though.

My question is, why not GS in place of s/wh? Evade on the AA chain. It seems the LMT trait and QZ would help with landing mauls. It has mobility with swoop. The block and knockdown on 4 and the cc on 5. What am I missing that makes the s/wh better? Honest question.

I’m kinda in the same point – I feel that S/WH doesn’t bring a lot because I don’t know wtf I’m doing. The WH call is great, brings a lot of buffs and lasts for quite a long time, the WH 4 does decent damage – However the sword abilities are kinda “meh” IMO. I know I’m misusing it but I feel that:

1 – The auto attacks do almost no damage,
2 – I’m not sure how I’m supposed to be using the leap and charge
3 – The evasive snake hit is a little weird, I’m not sure how I’m supposed to angle this attack.

Okay, I wrote to explain S/W but I got logged out and everything was vain. Rewriting.

Warhorn 5 interacts with Staff water field (Area Healing), and gives an unblockable buff to pet, which you can use with Electric Wyvern to interrupt blocks (press F1 before F2 to re-align the charge), or just swap to Smokescale for a burst. [Traited Warhorn 5 also gives Regen to earn Celestial Avatar’s Astral Force.]

Warhorn 4 allows you to apply Poison at range in this set, when you pick the trait Refined Toxins in Wilderness Survival. Great trait, and as Frosty mentions, the poison is a lot of your pressure.

Sword 3 is a free dodge you can use while immoblized, the Poison is a bonus.

Sword 2 can be combined with Staff #3 Ancestral Grace for burst mobility. Bind “About Face”, and press that before Sword 2 to let the backward evade go forward; then manually turn your camera around/press About Face again to face forward and complete the 2nd leap. [You can also click your LMB to clear target and lock camera before About Face so that it turns your character but not the camera. Press Sword 2, then hold RMB to turn the character forward again to complete the 2nd leap.]

Sword auto can be combined with Warhorn 4 to chip away at people. You have a lot of Fury and your pet does too. You passively proc Poison and make people waste CDs trying to clear it for heals (or they don’t). Pay attention and dodge with Sword 3 or roll when enemy uses important skills, you are great at stalling 1v1s and 1v2s.

Smokescale F2 interacts with Sword 2 leap finish and Warhorn 5 blast finish, so you can stealth, heal up, re-position and keep trolling. Have an eye on your lizard dog so you know where to leap to after you pop F2.

While LB can just plain decap someone by rooting them off-point, S/W is better at keeping a node capped and surviving on point; and Druid can now do that easily with how good Wilderness Survival has become (WS/NM synergy).

GS is a mobility/burst weapon best used with Power amulets, BM line for quickness and Moment of Clarity + Remorseless in the MM traitline. While it does have evade on auto it isn’t on-demand. The Maul burst with Hilt Bash isn’t all that impressive if you are running Menders. It’s not a bad weapon at all, it’s just best used in a GS/LB setup (you can even run a Tiger).

Ralkuth.1456:

Okay, I wrote to explain S/W but I got logged out and everything was vain. Rewriting.

---

Warhorn 5 interacts with Staff water field (Area Healing), and gives an unblockable buff to pet, which you can use with Electric Wyvern to interrupt blocks (press F1 before F2 to re-align the charge), or just swap to Smokescale for a burst. [Traited Warhorn 5 also gives Regen to earn Celestial Avatar’s Astral Force.]

Warhorn 4 allows you to apply Poison at range in this set, when you pick the trait Refined Toxins in Wilderness Survival. Great trait, and as Frosty mentions, the poison is a lot of your pressure.

Sword 3 is a free dodge you can use while immoblized, the Poison is a bonus.

Sword 2 can be combined with Staff #3 Ancestral Grace for burst mobility. Bind “About Face”, and press that before Sword 2 to let the backward evade go forward; then manually turn your camera around/press About Face again to face forward and complete the 2nd leap. [You can also click your LMB to clear target and lock camera before About Face so that it turns your character but not the camera. Press Sword 2, then hold RMB to turn the character forward again to complete the 2nd leap.]

Sword auto can be combined with Warhorn 4 to chip away at people. You have a lot of Fury and your pet does too. You passively proc Poison and make people waste CDs trying to clear it for heals (or they don’t). Pay attention and dodge with Sword 3 or roll when enemy uses important skills, you are great at stalling 1v1s and 1v2s.

Smokescale F2 interacts with Sword 2 leap finish and Warhorn 5 blast finish, so you can stealth, heal up, re-position and keep trolling. Have an eye on your lizard dog so you know where to leap to after you pop F2.

While LB can just plain decap someone by rooting them off-point, S/W is better at keeping a node capped and surviving on point; and Druid can now do that easily with how good Wilderness Survival has become (WS/NM synergy).

GS is a mobility/burst weapon best used with Power amulets, BM line for quickness and Moment of Clarity + Remorseless in the MM traitline. While it does have evade on auto it isn’t on-demand. The Maul burst with Hilt Bash isn’t all that impressive if you are running Menders. It’s not a bad weapon at all, it’s just best used in a GS/LB setup (you can even run a Tiger).

Thank you! This was extremely helpful.

I’m in the same boat that sword AA could use some additional flavour. Usually I take LB, but sword really surpised me.

I see so many Rangers almost never use it. People keep forgetting that Sword AA has a very good DPS for Ranger(since all Ranger skills are undertuned in general).

I feel like I contribute much more in a midfight compared to LB (even from range) and GS(slow attacks and random blinds suck) by using sword AA as often as I can when I don’t have anything else. Also nothing is more fun than killing DH with AA since they never expect you to stay that close. Heck I even get eles to use expensive CDs if I use sword efficient. Some even go down against my Mender Druid.