Guild Wars 2

Seriously ANet, don’t do this. Move EB elsewhere so that we don’t HAVE to take Wilderness survival for condition removal. Could be as easy as swapping Invigorating Bond with Empathic Bond. I’d really love to use Windborne Notes too, but NM is meh without condition removal, the only reason to take it is Fortifying Bond.

Question is; Who would like to see us have EB into NM, so core Ranger can diversify condition removals for different builds? If not, why?

I mean, you have lightning reflexes as well as signet of the wild for condi remove…

They are clearing up the lines more. You want survival traits the WS it is. The are moving spotter to skirmish line. The lines are more clearly themed.

NM is our boon line so it doesn’t belong there.

Your ok with gs in bm line but you have a problem with this. I mean its not like the gs trait in the bm gives fury and might to you and the pet.

One has other avenues of condi cleans. Eb is a trait that work by itself. You don’t trait it to make it better.

GS and Axe are have great synergy with other lines. Who to say that druid doesn’t have a way to convert condi into boons. I even if it doesn’t there are other way to cleanse condi’s

What 3 core line are you wanting to spec into and why? I hope its not Bm line for either of the weapon traits.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

They are clearing up the lines more. You want survival traits the WS it is. The are moving spotter to skirmish line. The lines are more clearly themed.

The point of the thread is not to point out the obvious, it is to discuss whether having both GM condition removal traits in the same line is a good idea.

NM is our boon line so it doesn’t belong there.

By that logic, Wilderness Knowledge belongs there, same as Survival of the Fittest is now. 2/3 of the GMs in NM do not have anything to do with boons.

Your ok with gs in bm line but you have a problem with this. I mean its not like the gs trait in the bm gives fury and might to you and the pet.

GS has good synergy with the other traits there and builds made around them.

One has other avenues of condi cleans. Eb is a trait that work by itself. You don’t trait it to make it better.

Such as using HS or SoR and EP, but that is not viable for many builds. I don’t get that 2nd part, sorry.

Who to say that druid doesn’t have a way to convert condi into boons. I even if it doesn’t there are other way to cleanse condi’s

Druid has nothing to do with core Ranger as I stated in the OP.

What 3 core line are you wanting to spec into and why? I hope its not Bm line for either of the weapon traits.

Trying to make a support-ish build for PvP, but I have to take NM for it, which is fine, but that also means I HAVE (unless you want to melt) to take Wilderness Survival for decent condi removal, leaving only one other line possible. Everytime you want to make a build for PvP, you HAVE to take WS for condition removal, we just need different options available.

It’s not forcing you anywhere, merely guiding you towards taking the superior condition cleanse.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

They are clearing up the lines more. You want survival traits the WS it is. The are moving spotter to skirmish line. The lines are more clearly themed.

NM is our boon line so it doesn’t belong there.

Your ok with gs in bm line but you have a problem with this. I mean its not like the gs trait in the bm gives fury and might to you and the pet.

One has other avenues of condi cleans. Eb is a trait that work by itself. You don’t trait it to make it better.

GS and Axe are have great synergy with other lines. Who to say that druid doesn’t have a way to convert condi into boons. I even if it doesn’t there are other way to cleanse condi’s

What 3 core line are you wanting to spec into and why? I hope its not Bm line for either of the weapon traits.

I really don’t care if the trait fits the theme of the line it’s in, I just don’t want traits shoved into spots that limit our build options.

How many people will ever use poison master again if the trait change goes through the way it is now? They need to make EB a master trait and move it to another line to help promote build diversity.

Benjamin.8237:

It’s not forcing you anywhere, merely guiding you towards taking the superior condition cleanse.

That makes no sense. It’s like saying you are not forced to breathe, you are merely guiding yourself towards life.

A lot of builds in the game have less condition removal than what EB provides. If you play an evasive build (something with se-d) or a ranged build, you should try to get rid off EB and go into a different line, just to try.

Condi cleanse is not equal to breathing. But if it were it like saying you have a cold and refuse to breath through your mouth. Of course breathing through your mouth is the best option but its no the only option.

I would be all in favor of them taking the gs or axe trait out of bm line and switching it switching it with eb at least that is more pet related.

Im also guessing most of you having trouble with this probably play condi build. Condi build inherently have it all without having to make the tough choices, but I could be wrong.

I’m not sure EB needs to move anywhere. But I would like to see some sort of condi cleanse in other lines, for example when swapping pet.

The false law of man, aka Survival of the Fittest, I don’t really like – at all. Yes, you get condi cleanse on demand, but the logic behind this trait is… disturbing. Where’s the logic connection between using a survival skill (other than the fact they’re called ‘survival skills’) and cleansing a condition?
I see SotF as a band-aid solution. Illogical and poorly thought through, they just gave us something.

Seriously Anet, you can do so much better than this. GW2 traits and skills in general have so little of what once made your predecessor, the original Guild Wars, such a great game.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

GS and Axe are have great synergy with other lines.

Actually, unless I misunderstand what you’re saying, axe has perfect syngery with BM, the benefit our standard xx66x condi builds with axe get from being able to improve our pet in addition to get a decent axe trait while at it is huge.

If you don’t wanna spec into BM, you could always just leave it untraited like everyone currently does anyways. The ferocity trait in skirmishing is garbage.

What they could have done though, is removing one of our two revive traits (having two is stupid regardless) and create an off-hand axe trait similar to our other off-hand weapons. Or something along those lines. Two-handed training could obviously apply fury to our pet aswell, or even all allies within radius for that matter to add some support to it.

Axe works with power to why even give ferocity if your going condi. While axe does have condi , the aa is power and other than the weak bleed the other condi don’t get anything for condi stats.

If you want condi cleanse the go into the survive line. I don’t see how its that hard or use another type of condi cleanse.

If I want to use gs or axe bm line isn’t cutting it alone. If I want to benefit from the daze on the weapon I have to go to another line.

Say you don’t need to spec into these weapon is like saying you don’t need condi cleanse because condi in time will cleanse themselves.

Many power builds give up a lot. Like condi cleanse and defensive stats. Condi don’t even have to rely on their weapons for damage. If condi cleanse is important to you then take it.

Really ws is about survival. Learning how to remove poison is a survival skill. There are two worlds out there condi and power and from what i see condi user don’t care about the other half.

Even if your going support you need to do damage condi is the easiest being it has less requirements. That doesn’t mean we need to through power under the bus to get what we want. Just as the regen build has a power and condi option a support build should have the same.

Power user are use to giving things up for the greater good condi users need to follow suit.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Question is; Who would like to see us have EB into NM, so core Ranger can diversify condition removals for different builds? If not, why?

I don’t. As I have mentioned before, I would rather have Empathic Bond improved than moved. Pointing out (again) the Necromancer trait “Necromantic Corruption,” if the Pet was given the ability to transfer incoming conditions onto enemies through attacks, then it would become a fine alternative for Rangers wanting a condition clearing trait that do not equip (much or any) Survival utilities.

Wondrouswall.7169:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Question is; Who would like to see us have EB into NM, so core Ranger can diversify condition removals for different builds? If not, why?

I don’t. As I have mentioned before, I would rather have Empathic Bond improved than moved. Pointing out (again) the Necromancer trait “Necromantic Corruption,” if the Pet was given the ability to transfer incoming conditions onto enemies through attacks, then it would become a fine alternative for Rangers wanting a condition clearing trait that do not equip (much or any) Survival utilities.

With those changes EB would fit in really well in the beastmastery line. Which would free people up to take poison master.

It would. The only questions left are what tier would EB go into and what other traits would be moved/merged in BM to make room for EB?

Active clear is far superior to passive clear + I think we have all learned how to play without any traited condi clear already.

I agree with Eurantien. Active clear is definitely superior to passive clear. I also agree that many of us have already learned to play without traited condi clear; without both SotF and EB.

We have non-traited condition clears from Brown Bear, Healing Spring, and Signet of Renewal. Regardless of each player’s feelings on each, they are there and they do work.

Some could also argue that we can have clears using shouts with runes. But that’s something I personally won’t entertain until the Specialization changes … and even then I’m not a huge fan of our shouts.

These are sufficient under non-heavy condi scenarios. In those heavy condi scenarios, you’re better off being a shout* Warrior or Elementalist … part of why these two classes are so popular in the current PvP metas.

While I think there are classes that are far better at clearing conditions than Rangers, I also think there are those that aren’t any worse than Rangers.

I have to ask … what classes have access to condition removal traits in more than one specialization? That would be a good check for whether or not we need to have EB and SotF in different specializations as the OP is requesting.

Sebrent.3625:

I have to ask … what classes have access to condition removal traits in more than one specialization? That would be a good check for whether or not we need to have EB and SotF in different specializations as the OP is requesting.

I take into account all ways to deal with conditions in HOT (clean, immunity, decreasing, transfer etc), if i am not mistaken (quantitatively) :

*Warrior 10 :

- 5 traits in 3 different lines & different slots.
- Based : 1 weapon skill, 1 heal, 3 utilities.

*Thief 9 :

- 4 traits in 3 different lines & slots.
- Based : 1 weapon skill, 1 heal, 3 utilites.

*Ele 12 :

- 3 traits in 2 different lines & slots.
- Based : 4 weapon skills, 2 heals, 3 utilities.

*Mesmer 8 :

- 4 traits in 3 different lines & slots.
- Based : utilities 4.

*Guard 8/9 :

- 4 traits in 3 different lines, 2 in the same slot (adept).
- Based : 2 weapon skills (not sure about Cleansing Flame), 1 heal, 3 utilities.

*Engi 13 :

- 5 traits in 4 different lines & slots.
- Based : 3 healing skills + toolbet, 5 utilities + toolbet.

*Necro 8 :

- 3 traits in 2 different lines & slots.
- Based : 2 weapon skills, 1 heal, 2 utilities

*Ranger 6 :

- 3 traits in 2 different lines, 2 in the same slot (grandmaster)
Based : 1 healing skill, 1 pet, 2 utilities.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

Im also guessing most of you having trouble with this probably play condi build. Condi build inherently have it all without having to make the tough choices, but I could be wrong.

Yep, you are wrong on that account. I rarely play condition builds, meaning usually I’ll have less health and armor than a condi build, but still require lots of condi cleanse due to the condi meta. Without it, you are screwed.

On a separate note, Condi cleansing for us with HS, EB and SoTF with survival skills made us the BEST at clearing condis in the game. Was just nice to be the best at something.

Eurantien.4632:

Active clear is far superior to passive clear + I think we have all learned how to play without any traited condi clear already.

Ofc active is better than passive.

Can you please explain how to play without any condi traits, I can’t see Ranger being able to compete at a high level without them, considering how much condi spam and also removal there is in the Meta right now. Why shouldn’t Ranger have the same capability as the other classes, regardless of whether or not some of us have figured out how to play without traited cleanses. Look at Borya’s post above, we already have the least amount of cleanses (but some of the best).

Sebrent.3625:

These are sufficient under non-heavy condi scenarios. In those heavy condi scenarios, you’re better off being a shout* Warrior or Elementalist … part of why these two classes are so popular in the current PvP metas.

Exactly, why should you NOT be able to play a ranger in the same place? Why are those so popular? Condition cleanses is a large part of it.

With regards to your question directed at Eurantien, please look at the Mesmer meta at the high levels of PvP. It doesn’t have any condition clears at all. It is dependent on its teammates for clears (hello Shout* Warriors, Elementalist, Guardians, etc.)

As far as the question directed at me … I’d ask ArenaNet why those 3 classes are always solidly part of all metas in the game, but Ranger can’t even get its nose in the door in the high level metas … but the Specialization changes may be there answer to trying to solve this … I can see the meta possibly shifting quite a bit depending on how the Specializations pan out as well as the changes to stats only from gear (no longer from trait point allocations).

You could extend that question beyond Ranger and conditions to many other things … look at poor necros in PvE where they are doing the same or worse damage as the “3 kings of all metas” but then provide so much less utility, group damage increases, etc. that it’s very sad.

In a condition heavy meta, in a 1v1 you have a chance if you are very good at avoiding the primary condi loads via blocks, dodges, etc.. Without cleanses, mistakes are very unforgiving. The fact that condi builds can be more tanky than power builds means that you are likely going to have a more extended fight so there are often more opportunities for such mistakes to happen. It’s hard/difficult, but not impossible.

Beyond 1v1, you need teammates to compensate for your lack of condition removal just like Mesmers … unless you decide to bring condi removal.

I wouldn’t mind having more options. I think EB is garbage though so don’t really care what specialization line it is in.

I appreciate borya’s work, though I think some of those numbers may be inflated by things like Dogged March and Leg Mods. Even so, it does paint a better picture for us. It wouldn’t hurt to have a few more options for condition cleanses … especially since ours are selfish while those of other classes are often cleansing them and nearby party members.

It depends what your role is but if you are like a zerker lb ranger you don’t need traited condi clear to survive. If you plan on holding a node, You probably want survival of the fittest but like people have said you could use healing spring, brown bear, and SoR. For team play, you can always have teammates who can clear for you.

Sebrent.3625:

With regards to your question directed at Eurantien, please look at the Mesmer meta at the high levels of PvP. It doesn’t have any condition clears at all. It is dependent on its teammates for clears (hello Shout* Warriors, Elementalist, Guardians, etc.)…

…In a condition heavy meta, in a 1v1 you have a chance if you are very good at avoiding the primary condi loads via blocks, dodges, etc.. Without cleanses, mistakes are very unforgiving. The fact that condi builds can be more tanky than power builds means that you are likely going to have a more extended fight so there are often more opportunities for such mistakes to happen. It’s hard/difficult, but not impossible.

Beyond 1v1, you need teammates to compensate for your lack of condition removal just like Mesmers … unless you decide to bring condi removal.

I wouldn’t mind having more options. I think EB is garbage though so don’t really care what specialization line it is in.

I appreciate borya’s work, though I think some of those numbers may be inflated by things like Dogged March and Leg Mods. Even so, it does paint a better picture for us. It wouldn’t hurt to have a few more options for condition cleanses … especially since ours are selfish while those of other classes are often cleansing them and nearby party members.

I get that you CAN run without them, if you have a dedicated team build, such as you are talking about. Doesn’t help us hotjoiners or roamers though and solid condi clear is needed for that.

Without solid cleanses, I simply cannot play these modes. Even if I were perfect with every evade or dodge, I’d still miss quite a few, simply because of ping times, I have the same issues with dungeons and just dodging boss attacks. Australia is in the internet dark ages. Anyway… If you are good enough to play without traited condi cleanse, then that is awesome because then you can take other traits instead, for us mere mortals, we, I, need it. I also like to play with different builds and having both condi clears in our WS line makes building quite boring because i already know where 1/3 of the lines will be and the traits in it. Adept will be Ambidex/Expertise, Major will always be Oakheart Salve, GM will be the condi clear.

I just want options, so I can work in Windborne Notes for a supporty build and have condi clear as well in the GM slot, or in BM. I also liked Poison Master with SB and SoTF, but will never take it now.

Eurantien.4632:

It depends what your role is but if you are like a zerker lb ranger you don’t need traited condi clear to survive. If you plan on holding a node, You probably want survival of the fittest but like people have said you could use healing spring, brown bear, and SoR. For team play, you can always have teammates who can clear for you.

I like to mix it up with builds and hardly play LB zerker in PvP, but I do for WvW and couldn’t live without SoTF or EB. If I was going to try and hold nodes, I would usually go a Valkyrie GS-S/A build I like, but it has EB, SoTF, HS, SoR, Evasive Purity and Hoelbrak so it is very resistant to conditions, but I still get bombed at times, mostly when trying to “valiantly” hold mid.

Where you and I disagree is that you say you “can’t” while I say you “can, but it’s unforgiving of mistakes”.

Sebrent.3625:

Where you and I disagree is that you say you “can’t” while I say you “can, but it’s unforgiving of mistakes”.

I agree with you there too actually. But I was referring to me personally when I said “can’t”, even without mistakes. But I think a lot of players in my boat (with bad ping internet) would also feel the same.

Stop selling yourself short :-p

I thought I’d never be able to do jumping puzzles again when I went from Asura to Norn … it just took a long time to get used to it.

I see this as being no different … maybe easier ;-)

No one ever got better by starting with “I can’t”.

I know I can play better, but it’s never my skill level that frustrates me. It’s dodging, then rubberbanding fractionally, then taking the damage or condition anyway, or things happening purely because the ping is 1500ms and not 200 like it should.

Nashville, TN bud … Google Fiber is coming here :-p Come get you some.

I often play around 150-250 ping with around (usually under) 15 fps. You can always learn to dodge better.

I would love to have a ping like that, but it rarely gets below 600.

Why, if I may ask, is your ping so horrid?

Sebrent.3625:

Why, if I may ask, is your ping so horrid?

^ I get belittled for not having under 100. When I hit 250ish I no longer even see engi pulls, they just happen.

Belittling someone for their ping seems pretty stupid to me … it’s not like any of us has control over how good/bad our ISP is. Many of us are stuck with whatever ISP has monopolized our area.

Sebrent.3625:

Why, if I may ask, is your ping so horrid?

Because I have to play over WiFi and there is only one company in Australia that has a decent network coverage. That and the physical distance between here and the server makes a difference also.

^ I get belittled for not having under 100. When I hit 250ish I no longer even see engi pulls, they just happen.

Yeah, that is most of the drama with that respect, there is just no way to be able to dodge things properly with so much delay, so I’ve learned to play with tanky builds (in pvp anyway). Sometimes I do get good times where the ping will be quite low, but the lowest I’ve ever seen it was 230.

Belittling someone for their ping seems pretty stupid to me … it’s not like any of us has control over how good/bad our ISP is. Many of us are stuck with whatever ISP has monopolized our area.

Yeah, that is stupid behaviour, imo. I’m in that boat. Due to the transient nature of my career I have to play over WiFi most of the time, as mentioned, and there is only the one ISP with said network. Sucks. It is also quite expensive at $10 per Gb data.

0/0/4/4/6 or 0/0/6/2/6 are your tanky friends :-)

I believe I’ve shared those ones already with you, right?

Sadly, with Aussie + Wireless, I see your issue … but I think that is a very large ping issue as opposed to an issue with the class overall. Heck, even with a shout warrior you’d be having some trouble there against any condition build that is good at continuous re-application (/cough, Ranger).

I mentioned earlier that I like to play Valkyrie GS-S/A because it is so durable and I can still do good damage spikes.

Yeah, it is a bad ping issue, and also a player issue. That is why I advocate not placing both EB and SoTF (to be WK) in the same line, because its not all to do with player skill, even if it were, would you want newer or less capable players to just not be able to play ranger at all due to lack of condi removal?

I think using up two of your GM traits to combat conditions is perfectly fine. Look at an ele who takes Diamond Skin, Soothing Wave and Cleansing Water, that is near passive invulnerability whereas our two GMs require the pet to take the conditions and requires a bar full of skills. I think you should be able to invest deeply in resisting something if you choose, same as you can invest deeply in resisting direct damage by stacking toughness and or vitality. You are making a compromise by losing much damage in return for sustain.

Since you’re largely indifferent to conditions with your build, have you thought about trying Knight’s or Soldier’s gear with your build?

I feel like with your 4% crit chance that the ferocity from Valk is being largely wasted … though you do have two sigils of intelligence.

The burst from Intelligence and PoS is enough to down an ele or thief from 80% and Maul, swoop and counterattack do great damage too. I have tested the others for damage, averaged over 100 hits and Valkyrie does about 80% of the damage of berserker, not including the sigil procs. They are almost exactly the same damage Valk, Soldier and knights/barbarian.

To me, it is the best of both worlds, I get the toughness and healing power for sustain, yet can burst on swap too.

If it works for you, who am I to argue with it. I may have to play around with it myself … or wait to do it with the new Remorseless changes coming to us in the future.

I always enjoy seeing something “different” being played. It’s refreshing.

Yup, Remorseless is going to be golden if they do not put an ICD on it. Fingers crossed.

If they don’t put an ICD on it … Remorseless Rangers are going to want to team up with any Mesmer running staff … get in melee with the target and every time Winds of Chaos bounces to you, you’ll get might or fury. Feel free to drool :-p