Guild Wars 2

Was wondering, did anyone care to do the math in when it comes to these two – which one will bring more damage to a party considering the changes to condition stacking that came with the june 23rd patch?

Frost Spirit for Zerk and all other power builds.
Sun Spirit in case you are running the most condition damage you can and if you need condi bombing (burst version of conditions).

In maths, you can say that Frost Spirit is better than Sun Spirit if you are able to deal 30,000 damage in 10 seconds in direct form.

If your Group plays Sinister (/condition builds), Sun Spirit will be better.
If you are the only one playing sinister, Frost Spirit will probably still provide more damage for the team. Especially if you have somebody Zerk holding onto a icebow with 25 might.

Followup question then: If there are more rangers around bringing several of either sun spirit or frost spirit, how do they stack (if at all)? In such a scenario, will it change to favor the sun spirit, regardless of power vs condi builds? Is there an icd in such way you can’t get another burning going, if you just had one, even if there would be plenty of sun spirits around to potentionally buff you?

Mostly curios about if these spirits would be able to add to burning stacks in any valuable way, to actually make them count.

Sun and Frost spirits do not stack. If multiple Rangers are in the party, split the burden of the spirits and spotter. Personally, I run a condi build and would much rather be taking both spirits than spotter (which replaces hidden barbs). If my fellow Ranger is running power, they can spend their utilities on better things than me, yet spotter is practically a freebie for them.

If you’re running a condition build, there’s no reason not to bring Sun Spirit. Frost Spirit is only being taken over viper’s nest, frosty is probably better than the nest, even in pure condi teams.

Tragic Positive.9356:

Frost Spirit for Zerk and all other power builds.
Sun Spirit in case you are running the most condition damage you can and if you need condi bombing (burst version of conditions).

To add to this:

In longer fights, your zerker party will benefit more from Sun Spirit in terms of overall DPS, compared to a ranger bringing Quickining Zephyr instead. Even the ranger’s personal dps goes higher the longer the fight if you swap out QZ with Sun Spirit.

In short, you may want both depending on the content, regardless of your build.

If there are 2 rangers in a party, do it like this.

Ranger 1:
MM= Clarion, Steady Focus, Predator’s Onslaught (LB > S/A)
Skirm=Sharpened Edges, Hidden Barbs, Quick Draw
Nature magic=Bountiful Hunter, Vigorous Training, Protective Ward
Signet of the Wild, Quickening Zephyr, Frost Spirit, Strength of the Pack
Pets: Jungle Stalker, Jaguar

Ranger 2:
MM > Remorseless variation (GS + S/A)
Skirmishing > Spotter Variation
Beast Mastery: Go for the Eyes, Two-handed training, Zephyr’s Speed
Signet of the Wild, Quickening Zephyr, Sick’Em, Strength of the Pack
Pets: Hawk, Jaguar

That’s the highest DPS you can squeeze from this, and you’d be surprised how much damage it can dish out in this composition. Ranger already has high DPS even as a Frost Spotter. And if you can choose Sick’Em instead of Frost Spirit, the damage goes further up.
A casual fractal level 49 with 2 of us – rangers, 2 necros and a guardian lasted like 50 minutes. Without a Warrior or Elementalist.

Truth be told, I never needed Sun Spirit in my life, so far. Apart from Silverwastes, that is. If you don’t have to, don’t use it.
You’ll be much better off with the proposed Full Zerk Sick’Em option.

Interesting. So you think that the three utilites you choose for ranger 2 will bring more dps in total if you count the whole party, than replacing one of those skill with a Sun Spirit?

OGDeadHead.8326:

Interesting. So you think that the three utilites you choose for ranger 2 will bring more dps in total if you count the whole party, than replacing one of those skill with a Sun Spirit?

Unless the other Ranger is a Sinister Trapper.
Yes.

But I still believe that Remorseless Sick’Em ranger would buff the party with Vulnerabilities a bit better than Condi Sun Spirit.
Last Time I saw Engie in a party for vulnerabilities was a week ago, and a month before that. Bonus Vuln is rarely wasted.

Tragic Positive.9356:

OGDeadHead.8326:

Interesting. So you think that the three utilites you choose for ranger 2 will bring more dps in total if you count the whole party, than replacing one of those skill with a Sun Spirit?

Unless the other Ranger is a Sinister Trapper.
Yes.

You have to take into consideration the length of the fights and the level scaling. Sun Spirit is sometimes superior to QZ as far as increased party dps goes.

Depending on your comp and the content, I highly recommend dumping that second zerker ranger for the sinister Quickdraw Bonfire variant and bring the Sun Spirit. It also gives you permanent fire fields to maintain might if necessary.

Tragic Positive.9356:

You’ll be much better off with the proposed Full Zerk Sick’Em option.

Again, content/party comp dependent. Either way, you won’t be much better of with two zerkers, the dps output from the sinister vs. zerker ranger is that close, that’s why condi ranger (and the Sun Spirit) is even relevant in PvE these days.

Lazze.9870:

Tragic Positive.9356:

OGDeadHead.8326:

Interesting. So you think that the three utilites you choose for ranger 2 will bring more dps in total if you count the whole party, than replacing one of those skill with a Sun Spirit?

Unless the other Ranger is a Sinister Trapper.
Yes.

You have to take into consideration the length of the fights and the level scaling. Sun Spirit is sometimes superior to QZ as far as increased party dps goes.

Depending on your comp and the content, I highly recommend dumping that second zerker ranger for the sinister Quickdraw Bonfire variant and bring the Sun Spirit. It also gives you permanent fire fields to maintain might if necessary.

Tragic Positive.9356:

You’ll be much better off with the proposed Full Zerk Sick’Em option.

Again, content/party comp dependent. Either way, you won’t be much better of with two zerkers, the dps output from the sinister vs. zerker ranger is that close, that’s why condi ranger (and the Sun Spirit) is even relevant in PvE these days.

I 100% sympathize with these statements.
… But seeing a Sinister Ranger in higher fractals (Ascended Sinister is quite pricy) is that rare, that I don’t even bother asking.

If he is just a pure condi, his DPS is slightly a burden for the composition. And he has to take into account that he’ll most likely play Frost+Sun Spotter (without Viper’s Nest), since it’s rare to expect 2 rangers in a group.

If you play zerker I wouldn’t take sun spirit, it’s just not worth it, the cooldown on the effect is just too long and rangers should always take frost spirit unless there is more than one of them in a group.

Do frost spirit buffs still stack if one person is using a traited spirit and the other isn’t?

This did work at one time and allow both rangers to run spirits but I haven’t checked since the patch and trait changes. 9/10 i’m the only ranger in a party anyway.

Prophet.1584:

Do frost spirit buffs still stack if one person is using a traited spirit and the other isn’t?

This did work at one time and allow both rangers to run spirits but I haven’t checked since the patch and trait changes. 9/10 i’m the only ranger in a party anyway.

This is forever gone.

I thought sun spirit was good but didn’t know it had a 8s ICD, so it actually sucks I guess. Is it even worth for a condi team? 8 seconds is a really long time.

I tested it and i think that the ICD of sunspirit is 5 seconds. That mean that you get about 10 burning that last 2 seconds every 5 seconds in a full team. If you add the active(buff recharge as long as spiritcorpse remain on the ground even if hes dead) you get additional 3 burningstacks and 1 blind every 24 seconds. Not really worth in a pve comp with zerker equip. As TragicPositive says its only worth while the group uses sinister stats. Good luck finding such a group.
But its really interresting in pvp. Im in group together with cele necro, burning guard and settler shoutbow-warior. Its a great synergy and most people are not prepared for this combination. Sunspirit is just too rare in condispecs. I dont know if it works well if the people gets used to it.

Khristophoros.7194:

I thought sun spirit was good but didn’t know it had a 8s ICD, so it actually sucks I guess. Is it even worth for a condi team? 8 seconds is a really long time.

It doesn’t suck at all.

Khristophoros.7194:

I thought sun spirit was good but didn’t know it had a 8s ICD, so it actually sucks I guess. Is it even worth for a condi team? 8 seconds is a really long time.

It is. Take it as a 10K damage every internal cooldown. There’s 5 of you anyways, right? You have to see the spirit multiplied by the number of party members.

Plus you have it as an additional condi bomb. Yes, blow it in each fight. The effect persist for another 13 seconds and you’ll be all set for another pull of mobs.

Sun spirit is 2 stacks of burning for 3 sec on 8 sec cooldown. 75% chance to apply so add another quarter second (that’s not exact, but close enough).

The damage stated on the tooltip doesn’t seem to take into account some forms of duration. Without food buffs, it seems to be calculated as a flat 3 sec (5 sec for Solar Flare – it has the same problem). So if you’ve got +condition duration items, your actual damage is higher than stated in the tooltip. You’re probably best off ignoring the tooltip and calculating it directly. Burn damage at level 80 is 0.155*CD + 131.

Anyhow, assuming no +condition duration and not using Solar Flare, calculate your burn damage per tick, multiply by 6 (2 stacks for 3 sec). That’ll give you the DPS that Sun Spirit adds. For solo rangers, since the pet gets the buff too, double it (I assume its damage is based on the ranger casting it – dunno if that’s actually true). For a dungeon party of 5, multiply by 5. (You could add Solar Flare, but getting the target to move within range just before the spirit dies is going to be tricky.)

If that DPS is more than 7.5% your direct damage DPS, then Sun Spirit is better than Frost Spirit.

Example 1:
With 0 condition damage, burn damage is 131. 131*6 = 786. So Sun Spirit does 786 damage per application. Multiply by 2 for your pet, divide by 8.25 sec per application. (You could multiply by another fraction to account for the spirit dying after 60 sec, but I’ll assume all fights of interest are shorter than 60 sec. If you do want to include it, it’s roughly 70 sec/81 sec = 0.864.)

786*2/8.25 = 190.54. So Sun Spirit gives an average of 190.54 DPS. Divide by 0.075, and your direct damage (you and pet, since the pet also gets Frost Spirit) needs to exceed 2540.6 DPS for Frost Spirit to be better.

Example 2:
With 1800 condition damage and 100% burn duration, your burn damage per tick is 410. Duration is 3*2 = 6 sec, so damage per application is 410 * 2 stacks * 6 sec = 4920. Multiply by 2 for your pet, divide by 8.25 sec per application. That gives you an average of 1192.7 DPS. Divide by 0.075 and your direct damage needs to exceed 15,903 DPS for Frost Spirit to be better.

Okay, seem not many do the math on this (I understand), so it is understanderble that many dont know the effectiveness of different skill here after the burn changes. Well, here is a few surprising? facts

Assuming that its a party scenario (dungeon/fractal/5 man party in open world wherever), Frost spirit out dmg sunspirit by alot in a full power group, and even in a Sinister party frost spirit is not bad.

Spotter out dmg barbed wire in both full zerker party’s, AND in full sinister party’s.

Sunspirit out dmg both Quickening zephyr and “sick em” in both full power and full sinister party’s (more in sinister party’s naturally).

The way to use sun spirit is to use Solar Flare as soon as the mob/boss become “red”, this will give you the 3 stacks of burning from Solar Flare and 2*applications of the Burn pr. party member. This is due to the fact that sun spirit keep appli’ing the effect during its death animation and this take 12-15 sec’s, so that is 12-15 sec’s for your party to kill the boss before you loose the effect. And as a added bonus at also mean that the cd on your spirit is redused.

To sum up, you want to bring frost spirit, sun spirit and spotter for any party, nomatter if you/the party is full power or condi.

Sigfodr.9576:

…
…
To sum up, you want to bring frost spirit, sun spirit and spotter for any party, nomatter if you/the party is full power or condi.

Not sure why would you think we do not do the maths… Especially when you provided none yourself and here are people who did (Solandri) . Actually, not a single number, at all.

Plus, sun spirit only rarely provides better DPS than Quickening Zephyr.
You know, it’s exactly quickness that raises your DPS by 50%. If the fight lasts for like 40 seconds – yes, you’d be correct. But for most of the engages I experience (Dungeons, Open World, Fractal mobs AND bosses) the boss goes down through the most difficult phase (or die straight) in a matter of 10-20 seconds.
And no, Sun Spirit doesn’t overDPS personal quickness if you don’t have any condition damage. Not even with might.

Burst > DPS. Burst is going to leave raw DPS far behind if the boss is already dead for DPS to take place. That’s why Icebow rules the PvE.

Tragic Positive.9356:

And no, Sun Spirit doesn’t overDPS personal quickness if you don’t have any condition damage. Not even with might.

As I stated earlier, it does if the fight is long enough. 20 – 25 stacks of might and coni damage from the strenght banner puts you way above the condi cap limit.

Lazze.9870:

Tragic Positive.9356:

And no, Sun Spirit doesn’t overDPS personal quickness if you don’t have any condition damage. Not even with might.

As I stated earlier, it does if the fight is long enough. 20 – 25 stacks of might and coni damage from the strenght banner puts you way above the condi cap limit.

Only for longer fights, which I believe I included.
Let’s see… It needs to trigger 3 times in order to deal more damage than 50% of 7 seconds of my full stacked Zerk tunnel phase. And for that to happen roughly 25 seconds are required.
And that’s past the time of my usual kill-time. The boss is usually long dead by the time the spirit triggers for the 3rd time. So no. It doesn’t really provide more DPS in real life. Especially for dungeon runs where the boss goes down in 5 seconds.

It’s amazing for SilverWastes, though. I’m not 100% sure but several people can trigger the spirit – since people just go and pass by – resulting in more people getting the buff for a short time.
I haven’t tested it yet but I think the amount of burning applied was much higher in comparison to the standard stacks.

Tragic Positive.9356:

Lazze.9870:

Tragic Positive.9356:

And no, Sun Spirit doesn’t overDPS personal quickness if you don’t have any condition damage. Not even with might.

As I stated earlier, it does if the fight is long enough. 20 – 25 stacks of might and coni damage from the strenght banner puts you way above the condi cap limit.

Only for longer fights, which I believe I included.

You did. And you’re right, a lot of bosses die within mere seconds.

However, that personal dps doesn’t really matter. What does matter is that Sun Spirit applies to the whole party, all above the condi cap, while QZ only affects the ranger. And then you have to take into considerration additional quickness applications from mesmers and guardians.

I’ll have to admit though. I rarely bother with it. I rarely bother with pve at all these days for that matter.

Lazze.9870:

However, that personal dps doesn’t really matter. What does matter is that Sun Spirit applies to the whole party, all above the condi cap, while QZ only affects the ranger.

This is what I was thinking all the time. A sun spirit must bring more damage from a party perspective, since it’s party wide dps increase, compared to a ranger getting 50% more damage going for 6 seconds. I can’t imagine those 50% more damage for 6 seconds for ONE party member will matter more, unless the fight is over that fast anyway.

OGDeadHead.8326:

Lazze.9870:

However, that personal dps doesn’t really matter. What does matter is that Sun Spirit applies to the whole party, all above the condi cap, while QZ only affects the ranger.

This is what I was thinking all the time. A sun spirit must bring more damage from a party perspective, since it’s party wide dps increase, compared to a ranger getting 50% more damage going for 6 seconds. I can’t imagine those 50% more damage for 6 seconds for ONE party member will matter more, unless the fight is over that fast anyway.

If we could get a DPS meter in this game, that would be awesome.
But unless we don’t we can’t really tell.
But from a raw guess, my DPS in full buffed round is around 4K. Which is a 14K damage boost (I found myself running Nature Magic for PvE more often than BM – so it’s 7sec of quickness for me). And that number is not achieved on sun spirit if you don’t build condi until the 3rd ICD.

[/Quote]: Tragic Positive Plus, sun spirit only rarely provides better DPS than Quickening Zephyr.
You know, it’s exactly quickness that raises your DPS by 50%. If the fight lasts for like 40 seconds – yes, you’d be correct. But for most of the engages I experience (Dungeons, Open World, Fractal mobs AND bosses) the boss goes down through the most difficult phase (or die straight) in a matter of 10-20 seconds.
And no, Sun Spirit doesn’t overDPS personal quickness if you don’t have any condition damage. Not even with might.

Burst > DPS. Burst is going to leave raw DPS far behind if the boss is already dead for DPS to take place. That’s why Icebow rules the PvE.[/quote]

My english is not the best, so I apologize for any misunderstandigs that might occur.
I do however believe that I mention that my statements was for party scenarios, this naturally mean several things:
1) You have a guard and therefore min. 5 sec or quicnes already, add to that the 3 sec of personal quicnes from Zephyrs speed, and then you are at min. 8 sec., so that was already full quicness during all the short fights. In case you run mesmer and not guard, then yes, you will be short on quicness.

The dmg from sunspirit 5 people * 2 triggers + Solar flare is alot of burst dmg (notice that the main part come within the first 1 sec of the fight).

About my numbers, I refer to , and you are naturally always welcome to do them yourself, just remeber to take cast time/food buffs etc into account

Sigfodr.9576:

My english is not the best, so I apologize for any misunderstandigs that might occur.
I do however believe that I mention that my statements was for party scenarios, this naturally mean several things:
1) You have a guard and therefore min. 5 sec or quicnes already, add to that the 3 sec of personal quicnes from Zephyrs speed, and then you are at min. 8 sec., so that was already full quicness during all the short fights. In case you run mesmer and not guard, then yes, you will be short on quicness.

The dmg from sunspirit 5 people * 2 triggers + Solar flare is alot of burst dmg (notice that the main part come within the first 1 sec of the fight).

About my numbers, I refer to , and you are naturally always welcome to do them yourself, just remeber to take cast time/food buffs etc into account

To avoid any possible misunderstandings.
Are you refering to Condition damage Sun spirit, or Zerk one?

Tragic Positive.9356:

To avoid any possible misunderstandings.
Are you refering to Condition damage Sun spirit, or Zerk one?

I believe either is able to part of a party if that is what you mean.

If you mean the trait, Zephyrs speed, then thats a zerker. so 3 sec less quicknes for the sinister build.

The guard, well both.

ohh and a small thing (not related to the quote from you), some people seem to have the false ideer that having quicknes make you do 50% more dmg (while you have it), this is however not true (as a general rule), the reason is that quickness “only” make you do an attack 50% faster, but do not make your cooldowns faster and this mean that some of the time will be used “waiting” for cd’s and “only” AA’ing. Dont misunderstand me, quicness is super cool and huge dps gain, but not quite 50%.

Sigfodr.9576:

Tragic Positive.9356:

To avoid any possible misunderstandings.
Are you refering to Condition damage Sun spirit, or Zerk one?

I believe either is able to part of a party if that is what you mean.

If you mean the trait, Zephyrs speed, then thats a zerker. so 3 sec less quicknes for the sinister build.

The guard, well both.

ohh and a small thing (not related to the quote from you), some people seem to have the false ideer that having quicknes make you do 50% more dmg (while you have it), this is however not true (as a general rule), the reason is that quickness “only” make you do an attack 50% faster, but do not make your cooldowns faster and this mean that some of the time will be used “waiting” for cd’s and “only” AA’ing. Dont misunderstand me, quicness is super cool and huge dps gain, but not quite 50%.

Well, Sinister or Condi builds definitely bring that chunk of damage with Sun Spirit that largely outperforms any other self-oriented ability.
But when I made the theory, the numbers of quickness boost made it higher than the 5-target sun spirit. With 0 condi, that is.

About the quickness, yes – I’m well aware of that. It’s just that most of our DPS comes from auto-attacks. So if it isn’t 50%, it’s probably really close to 45%. With faster attacks, more might to your pet is distributed via traits and Sword chain, more sigil procs occur and so does the bleeding from traits.
It’s really hard to see the real DPS difference since we don’t have any damage calculator around in the game.

I will run through the calculation again later today, I suppose to see whether I made a mistake about the 0 Condi dmg Sun Spirit (25 might, Banner) boost or not.