Guild Wars 2

This is an Idea thread for Ranger Pets, just to get them all in one place….

CONTENTS (seperated by Post)
(1) Links to Dev posts
(2) Summary of Ideas Part 1
(3) Summary of Ideas Part 2

PART 1 : LINKS TO DEV POSTS
This Post will gather links to all past dev posts from the last three months as it relates to pets, and will also any future posts relating to Pets until I run out of space. This way, everyone can see what the current Anet opinion is on pets.

(1) John Peters (Game Design Lead) explains how Pet AI works, and why it’s difficult to change.
(2) The Developer Livestream : Ready Up on Friday had some info on Ranger Balance. While none of it was pet specific (except for fixing an Empathic Bond bug), they did say that there are “some pretty amazing stuff comming for the ranger, and we’re really looking foward to it, but we can’t say what it is just yet.” (direct quote)

(I searched as far back as October 15th, 2013, and yes, there has been only one post specifically for Ranger Pets. As far as Rangers go, theres been a few posts about how overpowered specific ranger traits were, but not much else. In Anet’s Defense though, that one post does explain rather well why Pet AI works the way it does and why up until now, they have only been applying bandaids.)

I will be updating this post in the future with anything else the devs post that concerns Rangers and their pets

PART 2 : SUMMARY OF IDEAS PART 1
This Post will gather all links to specific Player ideas and observations in this thread and other past threads as it relates to pets (may take time to get the links to other threads, going back to atleast December on this section)

Current Ranger Threads in the Balance Forum as it relates to Pets

• Ranger Balance[PvP][WvW][PvE][PvX]
• [PVE][Ranger Pet]The Handicap
• [PVE]Ranger pet issue solution

PART 3 : SUMMARY OF IDEAS PART 2
full length Proposals current to this Thread

• Yoh gave us a Proposal to completely redo the way the pet works, its skills, commands, and our shout skills.
• I have an idea for Vertical Pet Progression.
• I have an idea for making Master’s Bond a more desirable Trait (see below post).
• Making Pets More Threatening than a Meat Bag part 1, part 2

almost USELESS PET TRAIT
I’m starting with this since its kind of easy to address the issues with this….

Specifically MASTER’S BOND
Its a pretty nice trait to take around when you aren’t planning to switch out your pet, because it adds 200 to all it’s primary stats when maxed out. That is Cool! But, There are problems with the Trait…..

• Going into water resets the stacks.
• Switching pets resets the stacks.
• This Trait does not play very well with other Ranger traits, specifically These ::: (Loud Whistle, Vigorous Training, Zephyr’s Speed)

- This trait is very restricting on what you can do for build variety because it requires that you only ever have one pet out, and you also can’t enter the water. This is a problem in WvW because you can’t play very long without having to enter the water.
- There are reasons for that, because the stacks are saved on the pet, and once you switch a pet, it doesn’t maintain anything, so those stacks kind of disapear whenever your pet is switched, deactivated, etc.
- Its a nice Trait in PvP since you gain 5 stacks each time you kill someone, but everywhere else, you have to kill something 25 times, very slowly building your pet back up…because you had to swim across a tiny body of water to get somewhere else.
- It also locks you out of the effective ability to use Zephyr’s speed, and Vigorous Training. It also makes the minor trait Loud Whistle utterly pointless because your build isn’t based on actively switching out your pet.

- How would I fix it, to make it better all around?….

• Have Master’s Bond stack on the Ranger instead of the Pet (without affecting the Ranger in any other way).
• Then have the game check for how many stacks the Ranger has, and it gives the appropriate stat bonus to the pet. (example, You have 5 stacks of Master’s bond, pet gets a 40 point stat boost to all its primary stats) Yes, it means that all four of your pets will share the stat bonus from Master’s bond even when switching your pets out, but here’s where that should differ.
• Whenever a pet dies (or you go into the Defeated state (not Down)), Remove all stacks of Master’s bond.
• If the trait is set up like that, it would remove the problems of the stacks getting removed by having to swim in water, because they are maintained on the Ranger.
• It will also encourage players to take Vigorous Training and Zephyr’s Speed with Master’s Bond, and won’t render Loud Whistle useless if you decide to trait Master’s Bond.
• It will encourage Rangers to actively switch their pets before the pet dies, not only to keep the cooldown low when switching, but to also keep the stacks of Master’s Bond Maintained.

I cannot possibly see how that would make Rangers OP in any way. It might make taking advantage of Beastmastery a little more desirable. And I can only see more options being opened up when traiting down Beastmastery.

That’s it for now. Expect to see a writeup this afternoon/evening on Vertical Progression as it relates to pets, what I like and don’t like, and my suggestions for it. On Thursday I want to address some limitations/bugs with Signets and Shouts and how they could be improved, and on Friday, I want to say a few things about Horizontal Progression with Pets. On Saturday, I am going to throw out some random suggestions on pets.

Also, Post your opinions on pets. Even if Anet doesn’t read this specific thread, I will be posting links and bringing it up every single time a relevant CDI comes up in the General forums. Even if all you want to post is…

I Hate Pets
/15 chars…

go for it!

Excellent post there Chrispy, its nice to see something very well thought out, presented well and not full of negative criticism.

I’m also in full agreement with your suggestion, for all intensive purposes having it work like bloodlust stacks “code” wise would bring this trait back into the light.

Pretty new to Ranger. I tried it when the game started out and I’m now just coming back to it because I’m enjoying a few of the minor changes to the class.

I’m just starting to realize how ridiculously clunky pets really are. Its really too bad. Thanks for linking that dev post because it does explain a lot. The way they programmed it wouldn’t be a problem for a mob or something that we weren’t controlling, but the stuttering after an attack, delay in responding to skill commands, it all fits with his explanation. Unfortunately I can’t think of a way to fix it that doesn’t involve some amount of reprogramming. Really, the AI for pets shouldn’t be handled by the server, but handled by our systems, and the pets should be treated like players by the server.

Only flaw with it being on the ranger and falling off when you go down is it loses a HUGE advantage, and that’s a fully buffed pet mauling your enemys face while you’re in downed state… keep in mind you have 5pts in BM so it’ll also have quickness…

I’d say if it is tied to the ranger make it so that it ONLY drops off if the pet is the one to die, not the ranger.

I have a few ideas and question-y…. stuff as well.

First, I’m not sure the game should consider pet as a player as opposed to a mob, but I guess that is just preference. It would probably lag a lot of people badly.

Secondly, I honestly feel the beastmastery tree is kind of useless. When I first played ranger, I’m pretty sure I only put points into BM, nothing else.

The problem is that in pvp, this is not very viable.

The one MAJOR problem everyone forgets is that in PVP, players aren’t going to attack your pet, they are going to attack you. I don’t think the pet is broken, just that it isn’t a good asset in PVP.

One thing I would change is make the pets ‘stand still’ as long as possible.

What do I mean by this?

Take my lovely Siamoth, when he attacks an enemy in PVE, the enemies target him, and stand still. He stands still, and it is back-and-forth attacking. In PVP, enemies are constantly moving, and your pet simply cannot get damage in. Even if they slightly strafe, the pet stops what it is doing to reposition itself.

I feel with these pets, especially spiders who have range, something should be done to make them try to attack from where they are first or something.

You know what skill would be awesome for a final beastmastery thing?

Summon both pets at once. The second does not despawn, but when dead it is just that: Dead.

Oh, and I require a Scaled Drake pet.

RexSilverton.9450:

You know what skill would be awesome for a final beastmastery thing?

Summon both pets at once. The second does not despawn, but when dead it is just that: Dead.

Yes please. Call it Protection of the Pack, triggers at 25% health.

I’m new to PvP and I am just starting to realise how much worse pets are there than in WvW (in terms of responsiveness to commands).

I think the f1-f4 situation needs to be fixed before anything else, ie traits. Because the pets simply aren’t useful at all when they can’t respond to what you say.

If this is a fundamental problem with all AI like ANet says, then the f commands should be made ranger shouts that come from the player, or something like that.

I’m just going to repost my proposal from the CDI thread.

One of the core problem with Rangers is Pet AI, it just isn’t reliable.
And since fixing the AI is pretty much off the table, how about we work around it instead?

Give the ranger more direct commands over the pet, so that we can have it act they way that we want at any given moment. Currently we only have two commands:
Attack and Return. Not a whole lot to work with.

-
Instead, drop both F2 (pet skill) and F4 (pet swap) for two new commands.

The F2 Pet Skill is just a glorified utility skill, that isn’t all that useful most of the time.
Nothing that the pet couldn’t just cast itself as part of it skill bar.

Where as the F4 Pet Swap also isn’t really all the necessary either. I think you’d be better off with a single pet, just buffed up a little more then they are currently, with perhaps an expanded skill bar that is more representative of the species of wild critter they came from. For example, any wolf or wild canine species can summon allies, not just the hyena.

-

The two new commands I have in mind would be F2 Guard, functions just like the shout, minus the protection and stealth.
And F4, which is a variable command depending on what mode it is in.
Basically rolling in the current Shouts, into the command system itself.

Currently we just have two modes, Guard and Passive. I think there should be three modes:

• Aggressive: Functions just like guard does now, attacks anything that attacks you or that you attack. Doesn’t care for self preservation.
• Defensive: Rework this so that it is a middle ground. It will attack what you attack, but not when attacked itself. Will try to preserve itself over attack when hit by AOE damage. ie, it will get out of it.
• Passive: Basically the same it is now.

The F4 will change to reflect whatever mode the pet is in.

• Aggressive: Sic em This commands your pet to run faster and catch a target, using any knock downs or snares it might have. For some pets this might include skills that Reveal the enemy. (namely, pets have a skill that this command activates, one for each mode)
• Defensive: Protect Me, commands the pet to use whatever defensive/support abilities it has.
• Passive: Search and Rescue, commands the pet to revive any nearby allies, or if should you go down, to immediately begin reviving you.

Naturally this command has it’s own cooldown to prevent spamming.
The shouts themselves could be reworked entirely into your ordinary shouts that give boons to allies, like the Warrior and Guardian shouts do.

-
With this, the Ranger would have much more direct control over their pet, supplementing for what it’s AI lacks.

Durzlla.6295:

Only flaw with it being on the ranger and falling off when you go down is it loses a HUGE advantage, and that’s a fully buffed pet mauling your enemys face while you’re in downed state… keep in mind you have 5pts in BM so it’ll also have quickness…

I’d say if it is tied to the ranger make it so that it ONLY drops off if the pet is the one to die, not the ranger.

I agree with that. The language in my earlier post wasn’t very clear, so I changed it a little bit, so it will read ’when your pet dies or you are defeated, not downed, the stacks get removed.

Yoh.8469:

The F4 will change to reflect whatever mode the pet is in.

• Aggressive: Sic em This commands your pet to run faster and catch a target, using any knock downs or snares it might have. For some pets this might include skills that Reveal the enemy. (namely, pets have a skill that this command activates, one for each mode)
• Defensive: Protect Me, commands the pet to use whatever defensive/support abilities it has.
• Passive: Search and Rescue, commands the pet to revive any nearby allies, or if should you go down, to immediately begin reviving you.

Naturally this command has it’s own cooldown to prevent spamming.
The shouts themselves could be reworked entirely into your ordinary shouts that give boons to allies, like the Warrior and Guardian shouts do.

-
With this, the Ranger would have much more direct control over their pet, supplementing for what it’s AI lacks.

Shouts themselves have issues of their own related to AI, that need to be worked out before the major overhaul you suggested. The problem is that all 4 of them cancel whatever action the pet is doing at the time, and it does the conditions of the Shout. It kind of gives the pet a different AI routine for a short time.

• For example, “Sick ’em” will pull your pet out of Guard, pull your pet out of Protect me, pull your pet out of Search and Rescue, and pull it out of the Passive State. That’s actually a good thing because you want your pet to be doing what you are telling it what to do.
• The problem is that “Sick ’em” also pulls your pet out of its current attacking pattern. It will sometimes kick the pet out of using its F2 skill, or any skill it was using currently. The only time it doesn’t seem to cancel what a pet is doing is when its not doing anything at all, and every other time except for this, it makes the pet stand there, looking like an idiot for a second or two, while the server thinks about the commands you gave, then does whatever it was going to do with the Pet’s AI.
• The command also ends prematurely under way too many conditions. Its obvious that it should be the case if another shout is used, you switch pets, or the pet dies, but why if the Target becomes invisible(stealth)?, or when you kill a specific enemy (Was the shout being used on the pet, or your target?)

That’s just with Sick ’em, the other three shouts also have some issues of their own, but nowhere near as bad, and I want to take a wild guess that the problem is because of how the AI and the Server works in this game.

Chrispy.5641:

Durzlla.6295:

Only flaw with it being on the ranger and falling off when you go down is it loses a HUGE advantage, and that’s a fully buffed pet mauling your enemys face while you’re in downed state… keep in mind you have 5pts in BM so it’ll also have quickness…

I’d say if it is tied to the ranger make it so that it ONLY drops off if the pet is the one to die, not the ranger.

I agree with that. The language in my earlier post wasn’t very clear, so I changed it a little bit, so it will read ’when your pet dies or you are defeated, not downed, the stacks get removed.

Yoh.8469:

The F4 will change to reflect whatever mode the pet is in.

• Aggressive: Sic em This commands your pet to run faster and catch a target, using any knock downs or snares it might have. For some pets this might include skills that Reveal the enemy. (namely, pets have a skill that this command activates, one for each mode)
• Defensive: Protect Me, commands the pet to use whatever defensive/support abilities it has.
• Passive: Search and Rescue, commands the pet to revive any nearby allies, or if should you go down, to immediately begin reviving you.

Naturally this command has it’s own cooldown to prevent spamming.
The shouts themselves could be reworked entirely into your ordinary shouts that give boons to allies, like the Warrior and Guardian shouts do.

-
With this, the Ranger would have much more direct control over their pet, supplementing for what it’s AI lacks.

Shouts themselves have issues of their own related to AI, that need to be worked out before the major overhaul you suggested. The problem is that all 4 of them cancel whatever action the pet is doing at the time, and it does the conditions of the Shout. It kind of gives the pet a different AI routine for a short time.

• For example, “Sick ’em” will pull your pet out of Guard, pull your pet out of Protect me, pull your pet out of Search and Rescue, and pull it out of the Passive State. That’s actually a good thing because you want your pet to be doing what you are telling it what to do.
• The problem is that “Sick ’em” also pulls your pet out of its current attacking pattern. It will sometimes kick the pet out of using its F2 skill, or any skill it was using currently. The only time it doesn’t seem to cancel what a pet is doing is when its not doing anything at all, and every other time except for this, it makes the pet stand there, looking like an idiot for a second or two, while the server thinks about the commands you gave, then does whatever it was going to do with the Pet’s AI.
• The command also ends prematurely under way too many conditions. Its obvious that it should be the case if another shout is used, you switch pets, or the pet dies, but why if the Target becomes invisible(stealth)?, or when you kill a specific enemy (Was the shout being used on the pet, or your target?)

That’s just with Sick ’em, the other three shouts also have some issues of their own, but nowhere near as bad, and I want to take a wild guess that the problem is because of how the AI and the Server works in this game.

I don’t see how ‘drop what your doing and do as I say’ is a bad thing for pets.
People complain that they are not responsive enough, now they’re too responsive?

It’s kind the bloody point. You want your pet to do what you want it to, instead of relying on it own, clearly inept AI.
By integrating the shouts into the command themselves, we’d have a heck of a lot more control over our pets which would largely rectify the problems with them.
It doesn’t have to be perfect, just functional.

And this would also free up the shouts to be redesigned into support utility skills that are actually useful/practical to use.

I see nothing but win in this.

Exactly. Brown bear F2 for example, if it was an on demand shout, who cares if it cancels what the bear is currently doing? You want it for the on-demand condition removal.

Also who cares about interrupting the pet skills we have no control over anyway, its not like we know when they are using them!

Jaysin X.6740:

RexSilverton.9450:

You know what skill would be awesome for a final beastmastery thing?

Summon both pets at once. The second does not despawn, but when dead it is just that: Dead.

Yes please. Call it Protection of the Pack, triggers at 25% health.

In development, at a time when you had three pets available to cycle through (rather than the current system of two aquatic and two terrestrial pets) there was an elite that called all your pets at once for a short time. It probably got removed because of the changes to how pets worked, but it could be made to work by summoning a random extra pet along with your alternate pet.

Sube Dai.8496:

Exactly. Brown bear F2 for example, if it was an on demand shout, who cares if it cancels what the bear is currently doing? You want it for the on-demand condition removal.

Also who cares about interrupting the pet skills we have no control over anyway, its not like we know when they are using them!

Actually, no, the part that I put in bold is 100% wrong. You should know what your pet is doing, and which of its attacks it is using at any given time. There is an issue or two with some pets, because they attack too fast (cats and dogs) and some of their animations are similar (dogs and birds), but you should still be able to distinguish which pet attack is which.

For example, the Wolf::::

• When you use its F2, it will get in range of an enemy, then Howl
• For its Autoattack, it simply bites.
• For its Crippling Leap, it Leaps at the target to cripple them, from a short range(130)
• For its Brutal Charge, it Leaps at the target to knock them down, from a medium range (350). Brutal Charge also has a short activation, while Crippling leap is nearly instant.

And the thing about the wolf is that you want to time its 2 leap attacks for combo finishers. You can very easily give it Fire/Frost armor, or extra healing. The healing is the important part. The difference in timing and animation is also important so enemy players can time their dodges to get away from a control effect (such as Brutal Leap’s knockdown)

You can also break down how the drake works, and you should be able to very easily tell when its about to do its blast finisher to time heals, might, and other effects.

Yoh.8469:

Chrispy.5641:

Shouts themselves have issues of their own related to AI, that need to be worked out before the major overhaul you suggested. The problem is that all 4 of them cancel whatever action the pet is doing at the time, and it does the conditions of the Shout. It kind of gives the pet a different AI routine for a short time.

• For example, “Sick ’em” will pull your pet out of Guard, pull your pet out of Protect me, pull your pet out of Search and Rescue, and pull it out of the Passive State. That’s actually a good thing because you want your pet to be doing what you are telling it what to do.
• The problem is that “Sick ’em” also pulls your pet out of its current attacking pattern. It will sometimes kick the pet out of using its F2 skill, or any skill it was using currently. The only time it doesn’t seem to cancel what a pet is doing is when its not doing anything at all, and every other time except for this, it makes the pet stand there, looking like an idiot for a second or two, while the server thinks about the commands you gave, then does whatever it was going to do with the Pet’s AI.
• The command also ends prematurely under way too many conditions. Its obvious that it should be the case if another shout is used, you switch pets, or the pet dies, but why if the Target becomes invisible(stealth)?, or when you kill a specific enemy (Was the shout being used on the pet, or your target?)

That’s just with Sick ’em, the other three shouts also have some issues of their own, but nowhere near as bad, and I want to take a wild guess that the problem is because of how the AI and the Server works in this game.

I don’t see how ‘drop what your doing and do as I say’ is a bad thing for pets.
People complain that they are not responsive enough, now they’re too responsive?

It’s kind the bloody point. You want your pet to do what you want it to, instead of relying on it own, clearly inept AI.
By integrating the shouts into the command themselves, we’d have a heck of a lot more control over our pets which would largely rectify the problems with them.
It doesn’t have to be perfect, just functional.

And this would also free up the shouts to be redesigned into support utility skills that are actually useful/practical to use.

I see nothing but win in this.

I see nothing but Lose in an idea that only moves broken skills from one place to another without addressing the problems and limitations that they have. And I am assuming that when you said Some people you were refering to me? I know I wrote that its a good thing that shouts will force a pet into a new attack pattern, did you not read that?

I did do some testing on Sick ‘Em because I haven’t used it much since the last time they updated the skill, and many of the things I described no longer exist. Anet actually did fix the AI loopholes in that skill, but it still ends way too early under many conditions, all related to when the pet loses its target (enemy stealths, it attacks someone else, enemy gains too much distance, enemy dies, etc.), So, you could be addressing those instead of accusing me of wanting ‘less’ control over my pet, which is totally not the case at all.

If we’re done with that, I want to say that moving all our shouts to the Pet bar, and introducing even more Shouts as you suggested is going to make things way too complex. You can’t stack Ranger Shouts because all of them are basically pet commands, so, having 3 and being a shout ranger is manageable, but, having access to 6 at a time? It makes sens for those new shouts to affect your pet, since you are a pet class, and It gives much more options for commanding your pet, but at the same time, it limits you. There’s also the condition removal from Soldier’s Runes to consider as well for giving Rangers access to 6 shouts at a time.

Your proposal is sound, but there are issues like that, that should be brought up and workes on until your proposal is air tight, but for now, its not and I am just giving you suggestions to build on your proposal until it reaches a level where there is no question about it being too OP, not powerful enough, not addressing obvious issues it would have, etc.

VERTICAL PROGRESSION AND PETS
(For these examples, I am assuming that pets are scaled with Exotic gear)
(I will also be using my Fern Hound Leafey, as my pet example)

This suggestion is to introduce a way that we can slightly increase our pet’s stats through a leveling and growth point system, so that way, their stats increase slightly to signify that they are now equal with ascended stats, and it also lets us customize out pet’s stats a little more.

For the Leveling System:::

• Pets have 5 Growth Levels
• Experience to level up is equal to what a level 80 character needs to level up. This makes it easier for level 80 characters to grow their pets faster for WvW and dungeons. It also makes pets stay a particular level for lower level characters longer so they learn how the pet works instead of all of them being tanks, meatshields, and dps gods at the same time.
• Pet Stats scale to the Ranger’s Level, But, you can spend a Growth Point to increase the stats of your pet slightly (which the next system describes)

Growth Point System:::

• Pets Start out with 1 Growth Point.
• Pets gain one Growth Point as they level up, for a maximum of 5.
• You can invest these growth points into any Pet Stat (Power, Precision, Toughness, Vitality, Critical Damage, Healing Power, Condition Damage, Boon Duration, Condition Duration, Agony Resistance)
• 1 Growth Point could Raise Power, Precision, Toughness, Vitality, Healing Power, Condition Damage by 50 Points, for a Maximum of 250 points.
• 1 Growth Point could Raise Critical Damage, Condition Duration, Boon Duration, by 5%. Also Agony Resistance by 5 points. Maximum is 25.
• It seems like a tiny, almost meaningless stat increase, but, it could be the equal of Ascended Stats, assuming that pets are scaled to Exotic gear.
• These Values idealy should be saved to the 4 individual pets that you have with you. You should also be able to reset Growth Points as long as you are out of combat, either by investing 1 of your own skill points, or for the longer way by buying a reset from a profession trainer, making them more like trait points for your pet.

Example a Juvenile Fern Hound at Level 80, and a Growth of 5 has these stats:::

• Power : 1718
• Precision : 1374
• Toughness : 2061
• Vitality : 2061
• Healing Power : 250 (invested 5 Growth Point)
• All other values are 0.

Example Lets make it with 30 points in Beastmastery, 25 stacks of Master’s Bond, and Compassion Training (for the healing power)(maximum possible stats)

• Power : 2218
• Precision : 1874
• Toughness : 2561
• Vitality : 2561
• Healing Power : 600 (invested 5 Growth Point + 350 healing power from trait)
• All other values are 0.

Example Lets use the Jungle Stalker now. Growth Level 5, maximum possible stats through Beastmastery and Master’s Bond, and Pet’s Prowess.

• Power : 1,874
• Precision : 2,561
• Toughness : 1,874
• Vitality : 2,561
• Critical Damage : 55% (25 from growth point, 30 from Pet’s Prowess)

This way, your pet that heals now heals better than it did before, making it’s role a little more defined. The pet that is DPS focused will be more DPS focused than it was before. Anyone have an idea or sugestion for this? It is the only way I could think of for having a Vertical progression system work for pets without making them too powerful.

Chrispy.5641:

I see nothing but Lose in an idea that only moves broken skills from one place to another without addressing the problems and limitations that they have. And I am assuming that when you said Some people you were refering to me? I know I wrote that its a good thing that shouts will force a pet into a new attack pattern, did you not read that?

I did do some testing on Sick ‘Em because I haven’t used it much since the last time they updated the skill, and many of the things I described no longer exist. Anet actually did fix the AI loopholes in that skill, but it still ends way too early under many conditions, all related to when the pet loses its target (enemy stealths, it attacks someone else, enemy gains too much distance, enemy dies, etc.), So, you could be addressing those instead of accusing me of wanting ‘less’ control over my pet, which is totally not the case at all.

If we’re done with that, I want to say that moving all our shouts to the Pet bar, and introducing even more Shouts as you suggested is going to make things way too complex. You can’t stack Ranger Shouts because all of them are basically pet commands, so, having 3 and being a shout ranger is manageable, but, having access to 6 at a time? It makes sens for those new shouts to affect your pet, since you are a pet class, and It gives much more options for commanding your pet, but at the same time, it limits you. There’s also the condition removal from Soldier’s Runes to consider as well for giving Rangers access to 6 shouts at a time.

Your proposal is sound, but there are issues like that, that should be brought up and workes on until your proposal is air tight, but for now, its not and I am just giving you suggestions to build on your proposal until it reaches a level where there is no question about it being too OP, not powerful enough, not addressing obvious issues it would have, etc.

First, build a bridge and get over yourself.
Why would I care about referencing you of all people. Esp when you seem utterly incapable of making a coherent augment, or at least understanding mine.
(because I don’t understand how for the life of me you contorted these problems out of my suggestion)
But perhaps I am a terrible writer, so allow me make myself a little more clear.

Turning the current shouts into commands wouldn’t mean you suddenly have 8 shouts, the old ones would no longer exist as shouts, they are simply commands.
They would just get their basic functionality, abet stripped down as to have a reasonable short cooldown.
Guard for instance shouldn’t have any cooldown, nor would you expect one of a command that simply told your pet to stand at a given location.

Where as Sic ‘Em (that is how you spell it), just commands your pet to give chase, and maybe give them a little speed boost, and perhaps an additional effect depending on the pet in question. A small cooldown, say 20-25 seconds would be ample.
If you loose your target to stealth, that isn’t a bug, that’s a feature.
Have you never fought against a Thief before? Losing lock tends to happen.

The other two again are locked to the other modes, one for each of the three I proposed, and they are mutually exclusive, thou they should probably share a global cooldown.

The point is more that you have the ability to direct your pet in a more flexible and responsive manner in order to circumvent the issues with their AI. Salvaging the current shouts is a way to do that since they are basically commands.
They would replace the current F2 and F4 abilities, since they don’t do anything that the Ranger can’t already do, or the pet could do on it’s own.

-

And new shouts, one that give a couple of boons like all other shouts would take their place. Not 8 shouts, not 6 shouts, 4. Learn to count. (well, three since you can only equip that many)
This would make them a great deal more useful then commands with overly long cooldowns, and middling effects.

Yoh.8469:

First, build a bridge and get over yourself.
Why would I care about referencing you of all people. Esp when you seem utterly incapable of making a coherent augment, or at least understanding mine.
(because I don’t understand how for the life of me you contorted these problems out of my suggestion)

You mean, you didn’t say this after quoting my post?

Yoh.8469:

I don’t see how ‘drop what your doing and do as I say’ is a bad thing for pets.
People complain that they are not responsive enough, now they’re too responsive?

It’s kind the bloody point. You want your pet to do what you want it to, instead of relying on it own, clearly inept AI.

And also, let me go on ahead and first admit that I have terrible spelling. And let me also bring up every single issue I have with your proposal:::

• You said that we only have 2 pet commands, when that isn’t the case. We have the following :::: ((1)F1 – Attack my Target, (2)F2 – Pet Special Attack, (3)F3 – Return to me, (4)unassigned – Passive/Agressive behavior), I’m not including F4 pet swap or the Stow/Activate pet option since those aren;t really commands, but I will include up to three of these ::: (Sic ’Em, Guard, Protect Me, Search and Rescue). The minimum number of pet commands you have is 4 at any time, with the potential to have as many as 7 if you use your utility skills for that. (pet command being something you tell your pet to do or how you tel your pet to act. Thats my definition of it that I’m using)

• Why get rid of the Pet’s F2 skill? The one pet skill we have control over? I would rather like to have control over when my wolf uses its fear attack. I would also rather have control over when my Fern hound gives me that crucial healing when I need it. Allowing the pet to cast those on their own means they are casting it at random, which means that they might not be casted at the best moment, they could be casted at the worst, or even wasted opportunities.

• While I agree that pets could use more skills if done right, why get rid of two pets, and bring it down to 1? Isn’t that limiting the options Rangers have, even if you give that one pet more skills to work with?

• I misunderstood your earlier post about just simply moving the shouts to the Rangers pet bar, because you said you were just rolling the shouts into pet commands. But, why get rid of those 4 shouts all together as ‘shout’ skills? Sic ‘Em for example gives a 10 second buff that increases a pet’s movement and attack speed by 40%. Guard gives a pet 10 seconds of stealth and protection. While the AI makes doesn’t exactly make those skills optimal, they are still very useful skills. Why get rid of those for new skills that just apply buffs to you and allies and conforms to what Warriors and Guardians already do? That would just serve to cheapen the class.

• as far as Passive, Agressive, Defensive……Passive is already a little conditional because you can order your pet to attack out of that state. So would it act with a Defensive AI or an Agressive AI? Or are you suggestiong that we get rid of the ability to pick what target our pet attacks also? You are also suggesting to add new AI routines to the pet (defensive state), which we all know the pet AI, isn’t exactly in the best way it could be right now. Why not instead expand the pet’s current AI so it tries to do a little Self preservation in addition to its current skill pattern (like what the new enemies in the Living world do right now?)(and you even say that the pet has clearly Inept AI)

• (“The shouts themselves could be reworked entirely into your ordinary shouts that give boons to allies, like the Warrior and Guardian shouts do.”) I had no idea what you originally meant by that, until your later post clarified that you wanted to add new shouts. But, what’s wrong with the 4 we have now? They are a little lessened in their effect because ofhow the AI works in this game, but like I asked earlier, how is adding shouts that work exactly the same as the Warrior and Guardian going to not cheapen the Ranger profession into just being “A warrior with a pet”?

• the one thing I do agree with , is that pet skills should be expanded on a little, not to give pets more uncontrollable options, but to give the AI more options. Making the pet smarter like how the recent enemy additons from the living world are smarter will make our animal companions all around more dangerous and harder to kill, which would actually force players to decide between killing the pet first, or going straight to the ranger.

I’m going to leave it at that for now.

WAYS TO IMPROVE PETS, AND MAKING THEM MORE THREATENING THAN A MEAT BAG, Part 1
None of these are very specific, nor is this a combined suggestion.

(1) Shout Improvements (aside from programming improvements)
Shouts are like Commands, because you are telling your pet to do something. Unfortunately your poor animal companion will have a tendency to ignore you when its getting itself feared, dazed, stunned, etc, making some of those shouts useless for a short time after you activate them. It is made worse by the fact that you can’t see conditions on your pet unless you have it selected. So, aside from making the millionth suggestion asking for our pet’s conditions to be displayed all the time…..Wouldn’t it make sense for a Shout, a command from the Master, to snap a pet out of its fear or confusion, and keep on attacking? So, here is what I am suggesting::: Add a Trait to Beastmastery or Nature Magic (the two traitlines with a shout trait each) call it Master’s Voice, It breaks stuns on your pet, and removes a condition whenever you use a Shout skill. This would also allow shout builds to get overall more useful.

Let me try to address some of your points.

• First, no I wasn’t referring to you, but rather people in the threads you linked, who complain about pets being unresponsive which turns out to be a problem with the animation cycle. A problem that is very unlikely to be fixed, but a work around is abilities like shouts that cause them to drop what they are doing, for the most part.
  You seem to think this is a problem. But you seem to see everything as a problem, so who’s counting at this point.

• You also suggest that Anet should just wave their magic wand and fix the AI.
  That is not going to happen. If they could, they would have already.
  Which is why the crux of my argument is the avoid the problem with AI almost entirely and just give us the commands directly.

You seem to be arguing for the status quo, buggered if I knew why.

-

• Now as to why I am giving up on the F2 and F4 abilities, which is a perfectly fine question, is because the F1-F4 keys are valuable real estate that added a lot of function to any given profession.
  I argue that they are better off spent on commands to control your pet, which we currently have very little control over, which is half the problem, rather then two abilities of very debatable usage.

• I can understand why they are there, in a perfect world if the AI was actually functional then more options and variety is a great thing…. but that’s not the world we live in. The AI is shoddy at best, almost certainly never to be fixed, so fat lot of good the extra options do us when we can’t even get the pet to do something relatively simple, like not stand in the fire and eat damage.
  -

• Sure, some F2 abilities are useful, and some gain something from being cast at specific times, but most are not. Most pet skills are no different then normal pet skills, you gain nothing from casting them yourself.

But if I had the option between a variable utility skill of debatable usage, and a command that I can direct my pet to stand where I want it to and break it out of whatever it was doing, I’d take the command hands down, no contest.
It’s not like the pet can’t still have the skill and use it itself.

Also, there is nothing stopping some of these skills being bound to the F4 commands. Sic ’Em could cast the Fear Howl, or Regenerate via Protect Me.
The space could be much better utilized then it is now.

It is personal preference admittedly.

• As to is the F4 pet swap. What good is it when you can’t control the 2nd pet either?
  Most pets are very similar since they share the same AI, and having two instead of one is largely there for the F2 ability.

• And the thing is, you can change your pet at a drop of a hat anyway, without this function. It’s the pet management system, just a couple of clicks out of combat and you’ve got a new pet. So you effectively have two systems doing the exact same thing, what a waste of space.

-

• As to the modes, they are exactly the same as they are now just plus one more: Defensive mode. Which is basically your pet won’t attack unless you either tell it to or your attack yourself, so your pet doesn’t go rouge all the time.
  And, it acts like and auto-return when your pet takes too much damage, so that it won’t stand in the bloody fire.
  Thou having Guard would also allow you to manually get it out of AOEs.

• The Shouts we have now are pretty pathetic really, as they have none of the support capacity of other shouts, plus very long cooldowns for most of them.
  The command functions are the only decent part of them. An extra bit of damage or run speed isn’t worth it taking up one of your utilities slots, esp when the Ranger has much better options to choose from.

I think they would be better served as just straight commands rather then being something they are not, shouts. Imagine if Mesmers had Signets, except without the passive effect….. then they wouldn’t really be signets now would they?

-

• The fact is, without either good AI or full control over your pet, as it is your core mechanic as a Ranger, it makes the entire profession less effective the every other profession by virtue of the fact they can all control their mechanics, where as you cannot here.

From what I’ve seen you don’t have a better solution to this problem.

Yoh.8469:

• First, no I wasn’t referring to you, but rather people in the threads you linked, who complain about pets being unresponsive which turns out to be a problem with the animation cycle. A problem that is very unlikely to be fixed, but a work around is abilities like shouts that cause them to drop what they are doing, for the most part.
  You seem to think this is a problem. But you seem to see everything as a problem, so who’s counting at this point.

Well, actually, Anet never said they won’t fix pet AI, and they have yet to say that it is very unlikely to be fixed. Here are the two specific quotes from John Peters from a few months ago:::

Summoned creature AI is a different can of worms that we aren’t opening for the same reason. Pets that delay F2 use isn’t some wait script we put into their skills it has to do with core AI behavior shared by all pets and creatures and how they decide tasks. Rewriting that has the risks of breaking millions of unknown things so we have up until now band aided the solution. It is something that needs addressing but won’t be addressed until we can kitten how and when we will test it.

JonPeters.5630:

Since you asked so nicely. The underwater skill is an instant skill which doesn’t not require the AI to change it’s think state, as it can fire off during other actions. The land skill plumbs into our animation system which requires the drake to change it think state and execute a new order to the animation system. Both AI think state and animation can’t be running 100% of the time on every creature on the server for obvious reasons (it would create massive CPU usage and generate tons of skill lag) Animations are masked by client side blending, but the AI stuff has no way to be masked. We can make special cases for Ranger Pet F2, but doing so requires time and testing.

the important parts are in bold print. And,….I don’t get why so many people think that the statement he made automatically means that they can’t fix pets, and they won’t fix pets. They haven’t even said that its very unlikely to be fixed. And I would also like to refer all of you to this post::: Official State of Skill lag and Server Optimization

That post is actually pretty important, because it tells us that for months they have been optimizing skill lag (including what I am assuming are skill lag problems with pets as well)

Yoh.8469:

• You also suggest that Anet should just wave their magic wand and fix the AI.
  That is not going to happen. If they could, they would have already.
  Which is why the crux of my argument is the avoid the problem with AI almost entirely and just give us the commands directly.

You seem to be arguing for the status quo, buggered if I knew why.

No, I’m not suggesting that Anet wave a magic wand, atleast not yet in any of my previous posts. However, the work behind the scenes that Anet has been doing to optimize pet AI and fix server lag has helped quite a bit for the pet problem sice the game was released.

If you haven’t played that long…back in August of 2012, pets were very unresponsive no matter the command you gave them, the AI did wierd things sometimes with their skill patterns, healing when they didn’t need it, etc, and aside from the fact that pets did more damage than they do now, they were pretty terrible to use.

The main reason why I don’t want to see the pet mechanic change as much as you are suggesting is because Anet has slowly, but surely made pets better all around compared to how they were a year ago, and while Shouts do some wierd things sometimes (Sic ‘Em sometimes won’t apply the buff on pets when they are using skills. That I tested a few minutes ago and confirmed still exists), overall the experience of playing as a Ranger is BETTER.

I would rather see them (as long as it takes) fix the pet’s AI, responsiveness, etc, but until then, a work around is just a work around, its a bandaid that doesn’t fix the root of the problem, that all indication so far has shown, even Anet is willing to admit that.

Fast foward to January, 2014! Pets actually a hell of alot more responsive than it was in 2012, and their AI is a little smarter, the skill lag is a little better.

Yoh.8469:

• Now as to why I am giving up on the F2 and F4 abilities, which is a perfectly fine question, is because the F1-F4 keys are valuable real estate that added a lot of function to any given profession.
  I argue that they are better off spent on commands to control your pet, which we currently have very little control over, which is half the problem, rather then two abilities of very debatable usage.

Actually, compared to last year, you have alot of control over your pets. Try using F1 and F3 a little, your pet will actually run to and from the target all day if your press those buttons. Putting the pet into passive will cause it to stop attacking, and putting the pet into agressive will cause it to attack. These are basic commands that have slowly improved over the last year. There are still hiccups (pet will pause for a second or two sometimes while the server figures out what to do), but still, nowhere near as bad as they were.

Yoh.8469:

• I can understand why they are there, in a perfect world if the AI was actually functional then more options and variety is a great thing…. but that’s not the world we live in. The AI is shoddy at best, almost certainly never to be fixed, so fat lot of good the extra options do us when we can’t even get the pet to do something relatively simple, like not stand in the fire and eat damage.

read the above quotes. Stating that the AI will never be fixed when that is the complete opposite of the case is a total lie that Rangers need to stop spreading around.

Yoh.8469:

• Sure, some F2 abilities are useful, and some gain something from being cast at specific times, but most are not. Most pet skills are no different then normal pet skills, you gain nothing from casting them yourself.

But if I had the option between a variable utility skill of debatable usage, and a command that I can direct my pet to stand where I want it to and break it out of whatever it was doing, I’d take the command hands down, no contest.
It’s not like the pet can’t still have the skill and use it itself.

Yeah, I’d rather tell my Moa to give me fury, then switch to a stalker to give me 5 stacks of might, and do it on demand, instead of at random. I would still rather have that instead of more commands over our pet when they aren’t really needed.

Yoh.8469:

• As to the modes, they are exactly the same as they are now just plus one more: Defensive mode. Which is basically your pet won’t attack unless you either tell it to or your attack yourself, so your pet doesn’t go rouge all the time.
  And, it acts like and auto-return when your pet takes too much damage, so that it won’t stand in the bloody fire.
  Thou having Guard would also allow you to manually get it out of AOEs.

I still don’t understand why you are suggesting to add more programming to the pet when you are the same person who keeps saying its broken?

Yoh.8469:

• The Shouts we have now are pretty pathetic really, as they have none of the support capacity of other shouts, plus very long cooldowns for most of them.
  The command functions are the only decent part of them. An extra bit of damage or run speed isn’t worth it taking up one of your utilities slots, esp when the Ranger has much better options to choose from.

I think they would be better served as just straight commands rather then being something they are not, shouts. Imagine if Mesmers had Signets, except without the passive effect….. then they wouldn’t really be signets now would they?

Except that every class uses skills differently. A Thief Trapper and a Ranger Trapper are not using their trap skills in the same way. Why should a Ranger use their shouts the same way that Warriors and Guardians do? Like I said before, that only serves to cheapen the class. That does not make rangers stronger, that just makes them warriors with pets.

Yoh.8469:

• The fact is, without either good AI or full control over your pet, as it is your core mechanic as a Ranger, it makes the entire profession less effective the every other profession by virtue of the fact they can all control their mechanics, where as you cannot here.

From what I’ve seen you don’t have a better solution to this problem.

Except that I haven;t attempted to think of a good solution tot he problem, because wthout completely changing the fundamental way the Ranger works, There is no good Solution, they all degenerate to work arounds and short cuts, which, like I said before, do not fix the root of the problem.

My pet suggestion:

• Fix Pet AI so it isn’t tied to the mob AI.
• Pets with channeled cone AoE track the target. It will still remain immobilized. If the enemy sidestep, the pet will rotate towards the target. If the enemy step back, the pet is out of range. Reduce damage as well.
• Most Pet’s F2 are now channeling skills. For example, Fern Hound’s Regenerate will give stacks of regeneration and a heal at the beginning of the channel. The pets F2 that shouldn’t be instant is the wolf and the Krytan Drakehound since they are very powerful without it.

I’m out, I’m done.
You are completely wasting my time.
You keep contorting things I say into things that I didn’t even really hint at, and your supposed suggestions are based on little more then wishful thinking.

I don’t know why you even bothered with this thread, when your only argument is that nothing should be done, and we should just sit back and wait, and somehow the problem will right itself.
Your clearly no interesting of fixing problems, or offering practical suggestions.

I wash my hands of you.

Chrispy.5641:

Specifically MASTER’S BOND
Its a pretty nice trait to take around when you aren’t planning to switch out your pet, because it adds 200 to all it’s primary stats when maxed out. That is Cool! But, There are problems with the Trait…..

• Going into water resets the stacks.
• Switching pets resets the stacks.
• This Trait does not play very well with other Ranger traits, specifically These ::: (Loud Whistle, Vigorous Training, Zephyr’s Speed)

- How would I fix it, to make it better all around?….

• Have Master’s Bond stack on the Ranger instead of the Pet (without affecting the Ranger in any other way).

The real fix for it is to clear the stacks from the pet only if it dies. Both pets could have independent stacks which you can build up, then you can swap two buffed pets. Or if they really wanted you to stick to one pet, they could make the stack clear upon pet death or pet swap. It absolutely should not clear just because you ran through water.

Where there’s a will, there’s a way. They took the time to make pet skill timers tick while the pet was stowed. They can take the time to make the stacks stay with the pet until it dies. They just have to be willing to take the time to do something which helps the ranger, like they were willing to take the time to do something which nerfed the ranger.

(And please don’t say the pet skill timers were easier. All they did was add a variable which records the last timestamp the skill was used and was not reset by pet stowing. Likewise they can add a similar variable which records the number of Master’s Bond stacks.)

Solandri.9640:

Chrispy.5641:

Specifically MASTER’S BOND
Its a pretty nice trait to take around when you aren’t planning to switch out your pet, because it adds 200 to all it’s primary stats when maxed out. That is Cool! But, There are problems with the Trait…..

• Going into water resets the stacks.
• Switching pets resets the stacks.
• This Trait does not play very well with other Ranger traits, specifically These ::: (Loud Whistle, Vigorous Training, Zephyr’s Speed)

- How would I fix it, to make it better all around?….

• Have Master’s Bond stack on the Ranger instead of the Pet (without affecting the Ranger in any other way).

The real fix for it is to clear the stacks from the pet only if it dies. Both pets could have independent stacks which you can build up, then you can swap two buffed pets. Or if they really wanted you to stick to one pet, they could make the stack clear upon pet death or pet swap. It absolutely should not clear just because you ran through water.

Where there’s a will, there’s a way. They took the time to make pet skill timers tick while the pet was stowed. They can take the time to make the stacks stay with the pet until it dies. They just have to be willing to take the time to do something which helps the ranger, like they were willing to take the time to do something which nerfed the ranger.

(And please don’t say the pet skill timers were easier. All they did was add a variable which records the last timestamp the skill was used and was not reset by pet stowing. Likewise they can add a similar variable which records the number of Master’s Bond stacks.)

Not going to suggest that its easier at all…but, if there isn’t a way to get it to work using timestamps and variables…I guess the simplest way to summarize my suggestion is that Anet could treat Master’s bond in the same way it does signets when the Ranger equips them. (which I am just going to guess that the game checks ranger for signet, then gives passive signet effect to pet (for my idea,… just no buff on Ranger, the stacks are only saved on the ranger))

Well i’m the guy from one of the 3 linked in top post ideas to improve pets (pet ward idea in my case). Sooo, take a look at it and post there if you like;)

As for discussion in this thread i disagree with pet skills being useless or the need for one pet only. Pet skills in some cases are awesome, not all but enough to care. Also having two swappable pets means i have access to two skills and two types of pet ally (for example the tanky bear when things get hot, and vicious feline or bird for dealing big damage for the rest of the time).

Not to mention strategic uses of pet swap – like having a pet take aggro i don’t want, and once i’m in the clear – fast swap to save the pet and have my 2nd pet right next to me just in case.

or taking conditions with pet, then a swap, saving me trouble of taking them off it.

Getting downed usually means your pet isn’t in best shape either – not exactly what you want given it’s to revive you in few secs. Swapping to fresh, full of hp pet for the job is a livesaver!

WAYS TO IMPROVE PETS, AND MAKING THEM MORE THREATENING THAN A MEAT BAG, Part 2

One of the many problems I have with a pet Class like Ranger (or necromancers too), is just how little the pet actually contributes to your survival. In WvW, players have been conditioned to know that Rangers are the easiest targets out there. Any good player will run right past the pet, totally ignoring it, and attack the Ranger directly. Well, there goes what could be as much as 40% of your effective damage, and up to half of your effective survivability, just toally ignored by the Facerolling Zerker or Condition Specced character that knows how little of a threat your pet is.

That is Totally Wrong and Backwards!!! There should always be a greater risk for going after the master first instead of the pet. Players should be punished for ignoring the pet just as much as Rangers are punished when the pet dies (longer cooldown). So, how can we add that risk in there, making it harder for players to kill the master first over the pet but without making it impossible? Well I have Two seperate ideas….

(1) – Each Pet family gives Rangers a different Bonus as long as they are alive.
-These should be some rather substantial bonuses too that allows the Ranger to survive or deal damage more easily until the Player or enemy kills the pet first. To list some pet families for an example….

• Birds give players a 25% non-stacking speed boost as long as they are alive.
• Bears increase your Health as long as they are alive.
• Devourers decrease the damage you take as long as they are alive.
• Felines increase your damage as long as they are alive.
• Canines increase the duration of your conditions as long as they are alive.
• Moas increase your healing as long as they are alive.
• Porcines decrease condition damage you take as long as they are alive.
• Spiders increase your condition damage as long as they are alive.
• Drakes allow all your multi target attacks to hit one extra target as long as they are alive.

- I’m not sure what the other actual bonuses should be. Somewhere between 10-15% seems fair though, because making a fight last 10% longer gives Rangers more than enough time to escape or rethink their strategy if its not working. On the damge side, dealing 10-15% more damage because the pet is still alive gives enemy players serious incentive to try to kill your squishy pet first so they could survive longer themselves.
- There should also be a cooldown when you switch pets with this option (I suggest 10 seconds or so), because the point of this is to make your enemy concentrate on your pet first, but being able to just switch pets at any time defeats the purpose of that, and would make your enemy go after you first anyways.

(2) – Edit existing Traits to instead give bonuses as long as the pet is still alive.
- For example, the Skirmishing trait is all about critical hits and such, and the grandmaster minor trait increases you damage when flanking. Well, its pretty hard to flank when your cripped, chilled, immobilized, etc. We could remove the pretty much useless ‘Agility Training’ trait* , and instead put a trait in there that decreases the duration of Cripple, Chill, and Immobilize by 50% as long as your pet is still alive. This would also help the fact that Rangers don’t have any reliable condition removals other than Healing Spring and the brown bear,(which makes them very vulnerable to conditions).
- For another Example, ‘Bark Skin’ is effective….sometimes, but if you take a giant burst attack when you are at 26% health, the trait doesn’t seem to activate, so you die anyways. Bark Skin could be changed to where it now offers a 13% damage reduction at any time if your pet is still alive, and still give you the other bonus of 50% damage reduction when under 25% health whether the pet is alive or not.
- For another Example, ’Beastmaster’s Bond’ could give you 1 stack of might for 10 seconds, every 10 seconds, as long as your pet is still alive, in addition to its current bonus that gives you fury and 3 stacks of might when your pet goes below 50% health.
- For a Final Example, ‘Natural Healing’ can increase your effective healing by 13% as long as your pet is still alive, in addition to giving the health regeneration the trait already has.

*I say Agility Training because pets should be able to hit a moving target without having to invest in a trait to start with.

Doing either of these two systems could make Rangers seem much more powerful and threatening….as long as they keep their pet alive. This can promote more active play from Rangers, encouraging them to actively keep their pet alive, or switch it out when they get near death. It also encourages more active play from other players other than…( 1) Go straight to Ranger, 2) You win!)

A great idea chrispy