Natural Vigor
Wilderness Survival adept minor (5 pts)
+ 50% Endurance regeneration
Zephyr’s Speed
Beastmastery adept minor (5 points)
2 secs quickness on pet swap
These two traits are just beast, they’re of paramount importance to all rangers and I don’t think any build can afford to do without them. No matter what or where you play, 5 points should always be invested into WS and BM.
I’m posting this because I keep coming across builds that neglect one of these traits. If you’re new to the Ranger class you should note the importance of these two minors, but if you’ve been around for a while I’d be curious to hear your logic behind not picking these up. The only thing I can really think of is Master’s Bond conflicting with Zephyr’s Speed. Anyone care to comment?
TL;DR – All ranger builds need 5 points in WS and BM for endurance regen and quickness
well it depends on the situation and your runes/sigils traits. If you have other sources of endurance regen than that 5 isnt needed, also the 5 in BM isnt needed if you dont plan on stomping quickly. In WvW I switch targets when i down one and let teamates stomp but again i switch traits around and sometimes i do have 5 in BM. In pve its personal preference, in spvp and tpvp prolly you will need.
I get the perma-Vigor one, but I don’t get the Quickness one.
It takes forever to switch between pets…?
I agree that’s it’s basicly ’’must’’. You can dodge pretty often cause of it and along with vigor – all day long. And you get 2s of quickness every 19sec as long your pet is alive. Great for burst, switching pets and then F2 skill which shouldn’t fail due to quickness and you can finish enemies before they knock you down.
0/0/5/0/5 is my spec.
My entire spec.
Usually I fight unarmed and naked.
(edited by Othayuni.7369)
I’d make an argument for 15 into BM for loud whistle to compliment the 5 trait. 5 seconds off of a 20s pet swap means 25% more quickness. Sadly I don’t have enough points in my trap spec left to reach 15 BM.
But yes, they are probably 2 of the best minor traits rangers have.
False, almost no build I run has the 5pts in WS (a few don’t have 5pts in BM but seeing as how most of my builds focus heavily on my pet….), it’s not as amazing as a lot of people think, don’t get me wrong it’s really good, but they’re hardly mandatory.
I don’t want to be kitteny, but I automaticly assume people disagreeing with it aren’t really good players.
Ofc I don’t pro-claim myself, but it’s pretty much like running bunker d/d ele without points in arcane and water. But in this case you ’’lose’’ 10 points and get much more instead.
I don’t want to be kitteny, but I automaticly assume people disagreeing with it aren’t really good players.
Ofc I don’t pro-claim myself, but it’s pretty much like running bunker d/d ele without points in arcane and water. But in this case you ’’lose’’ 10 points and get much more instead.
Yeah but endurance isn’t the only way to survive, I rely on healing and toughness and have tons of evades already via sword, and can keep things away from me via LB KB, muddy terrain, spike trap, spiders, etc, so I don’t need that endurance boost because I don’t need to dodge, that and if something -does- get up close (thieves, ALWAYS thieves) I have stuns and dazes via pet to flip the tables.
I’m not saying those “10pts” are poorly spent, I’m saying they’re hardly necessary, but those 5 points could mean the difference between my pet becoming an absolute monster when the enemy thinks I’m beat and just having an extra dodge I won’t get to use.
PS: I would say I don’t use them for my bunker build, but in order for that build to work I need to go 30pts deep in both those trees.
What kind of bunker build is that when you’re not focusin on trait which gives you toughness and ability to use your dodges more often?
why do you need 5 points in wilderness, when you can have have 5 somewhere else, and still get vigor from LR
What kind of bunker build is that when you’re not focusin on trait which gives you toughness and ability to use your dodges more often?
I just said, and I quote “but I’d need to go 30pts deep in both those trees.” In other words I need both 30 pts in WS and BM for it to work, I tried doing 30 in NM and it’d work amazingly well if I had access to Magis gear, but I don’t because for w/e reason ANET wants less build variety in PvP than PvE.
why do you need 5 points in wilderness, when you can have have 5 somewhere else, and still get vigor from LR
Boom, not to mention that LR + NM/boon duration runes = A LOT of vigor up time, then you can gain vigor every time you’re crit and etc.
“I rely on healing and toughness”
The problem with that is our healing is subpar besides troll’s ungeant (which probably will get nerfed in some time anyway) and with the EB fix/nerf , good luck using anything besides healing spring because troll/HAO doesn’t mean kitten when you have a ton of conditions on both you and your pet. Toughness obviously doesn’t mean anything in the context of conditions/damage as most classes can stack survivability and boon stack to oblivion and still the produce the same damage as you and better. No matter how good you are, the meta for other classes extends far beyond the simple ‘healing and toughness’ that we have.
It’s that simple really.
why do you need 5 points in wilderness, when you can have have 5 somewhere else, and still get vigor from LR
Pardon my Ranger noobiness, but what’s “LR”?
why do you need 5 points in wilderness, when you can have have 5 somewhere else, and still get vigor from LR
Pardon my Ranger noobiness, but what’s “LR”?
Lightning Reflexes , it’s a survival utility skill we get.
Evade back with a crack of lightning, dealing damage and gaining vigor.
Vigor: 10 s
Damage: 244
Breaks stun
“I rely on healing and toughness”
The problem with that is our healing is subpar besides troll’s ungeant (which probably will get nerfed in some time anyway) and with the EB fix/nerf , good luck using anything besides healing spring because troll/HAO doesn’t mean kitten when you have a ton of conditions on both you and your pet. Toughness obviously doesn’t mean anything in the context of conditions/damage as most classes can stack survivability and boon stack to oblivion and still the produce the same damage as you and better. No matter how good you are, the meta for other classes extends far beyond the simple ‘healing and toughness’ that we have.
It’s that simple really.
I have 3k armor and ~1.3k healing power, my healing spring blows Trolls Unguents out of the water if I stand in it, and seeing as how my build has no issues with standing toe to toe with melee, I don’t have any problems here.
I’m not using the build you are, your weaknesses are NOT mine.
I get the perma-Vigor one, but I don’t get the Quickness one.
It takes forever to switch between pets…?
If your pet is bellow 50% health, but still alive, switching cooldown is only 20 seconds instead of 60. Either ways, you’re essentially paying 5 trait points for an extra “on demand” 20/60 sec cooldown haste with no downsides. It’s pretty mandatory.
@OP: Yes. Both are absolutely mandatory for roughly any build.
“I rely on healing and toughness”
The problem with that is our healing is subpar besides troll’s ungeant (which probably will get nerfed in some time anyway) and with the EB fix/nerf , good luck using anything besides healing spring because troll/HAO doesn’t mean kitten when you have a ton of conditions on both you and your pet. Toughness obviously doesn’t mean anything in the context of conditions/damage as most classes can stack survivability and boon stack to oblivion and still the produce the same damage as you and better. No matter how good you are, the meta for other classes extends far beyond the simple ‘healing and toughness’ that we have.
It’s that simple really.
imo, troll ungent is the sub-par one. Its regeneration, so it doesnt save you that fast, unless you stack up incredible amounts of healing. It only helps yourself, not allies, it has 1 second casting time, and doesnt cure conditions.
Healing spring has more healing, 1/2 second casting time, creates a water field, which is able to produce combos with GS#3 or Axe#5. Not to mention it helps allies, and cures a condition every 3 seconds… so all you gotta do, is cast it and run back and forth within that area, quite easy when you got a ranger….
Also, bark skin > EB…. 3000 def + bark skin makes you nigh impossible to take down quickly…. use some dungeon runes and you get uber tanky the less HP you get….
To be honest, one could make the argument that 15 into Wilderness is highly beneficial.
The ability to give Protection to your pet on demand is pretty strong (Gives a way to keep your pet alive against the big hits as long as you have the energy to dodge and can see the attack coming)
To be honest, one could make the argument that 15 into Wilderness is highly beneficial.
The ability to give Protection to your pet on demand is pretty strong (Gives a way to keep your pet alive against the big hits as long as you have the energy to dodge and can see the attack coming)
that is quite a good suggestion/reasoning.
currently got 30 in wilderness to get bark skin and toughness… dodgeroll protection is worth its weight in gold
Agree, I just said in another thread in fact, these traits our the corner stone of any of our builds.
only scenario i can see them not being really good is: no 5 in BM if you’re using master’s bond (as you said), and no 5 in WS if you have perma vigor from vigorous training (and 2 pets that bennefit), concentration training and loud whistle (at least i think that’s possible lol). I know i stacked perm-vigor before but i might have been using vigorous renewal so it this may be a moot point..
Isn’t perma-vigor without 5 WS the same effect as having 5 WS? Basically it is just an interchangeable concept.
What I personally prefer is the 5 in WS, just because I usually trait into it since I believe some of better trait effects are in that line for spvp purposes, so it’s going to get picked up anyways.
I don’t feel that anybody in the game could argue that more quickness (aka 5 BM) is a bad effect, since quickness is so useful for quick revives and stomps and potential burst and everything else.
Also, if I had enough points I would take 10 in skirmishing for 30% more pet crit damage on every trait setup. That trait alone improves rangers damage potential by quite a bit, even if not everybody in the ranger community appreciates the source of that damage.
Isn’t perma-vigor without 5 WS the same effect as having 5 WS? Basically it is just an interchangeable concept.
What I personally prefer is the 5 in WS, just because I usually trait into it since I believe some of better trait effects are in that line for spvp purposes, so it’s going to get picked up anyways.
no, vigor is +100% endurance regen, the minor trait is +50% and doesn’t stack with vigor, hence why perma vigor is superior and makes the trait worthless.
Guys, both perm vigor and natural vigor builds are valid, no need to get at each others throats.
Guys, both perm vigor and natural vigor builds are valid, no need to get at each others throats.
My dad could so beat up your dad!
Guys, both perm vigor and natural vigor builds are valid, no need to get at each others throats.
My dad could so beat up your dad!
pffft, my dad knows Mr T so whatever dude.
I didn’t feel as if we were at each others throats lol. Just having a friendly debate.
Even if perma-vigor is better, it could be argued that it is harder to obtain and the class has to be built a certain way to maintain vigor. That is a playstyle choice that not everybody wants to make is all I was getting at. I’m not disagreeing in the slightest.
I honestly never noticed vigor was +100%. I have energy sigils on my weapons along with 5 points in WS, so even if I do have vigor applied, I never really directly noticed its exact effect on the builds I run. So I learned something.
I didn’t feel as if we were at each others throats lol. Just having a friendly debate.
Even if perma-vigor is better, it could be argued that it is harder to obtain and the class has to be built a certain way to maintain vigor. That is a playstyle choice that not everybody wants to make is all I was getting at. I’m not disagreeing in the slightest.
I honestly never noticed vigor was +100%. I have energy sigils on my weapons along with 5 points in WS, so even if I do have vigor applied, I never really directly noticed its exact effect on the builds I run. So I learned something.
Yeah vigor is a good option, but so is adventurer runes + endurance sigils, my god do you get a lot of dodging out of that combo! We have a lot of things to give us a lot of dodging/evading, but as you said, it requires certain builds/utility choices.
This is why I say the 5pts in WS are hardly mandatory, there’s just so many other ways to go about it. The 5pts in BM are -really- good though, I’d say they’re not mandatory, but I’m always in a heavy BM build (well -almost- always) so I get the trait by default lol.
If you are doing fractals or dungeons i would say 15 in BM is paramount
If you are doing fractals or dungeons i would say 15 in BM is paramount
Dungeons? No, my friend runs a 30/30/0/10/0 build, uses a Moa and a Pig I believe to support his group, and because they’re tanky with 0bm…
For fractals? Idk, high end fractals (past 30) require specific builds, that I’ve been told time and time again by a guildy at lv 50 something. Before that you can get away without it I’m sure, especially once AR is put on pets…
The quickness can also be very useful with Healing Spring and a bow. Longbow is best for this, but Short Bow is good too. Drop HS, pop Rapid Fire, and swap your pet – Quickened Rapid Fire juices your Regen boon quite nicely.
Healing Spring’s CD lines up quite nicely with traiting 15 in BM too, since you can then plug this combo every second pet swap.
I didn’t feel as if we were at each others throats lol. Just having a friendly debate.
Even if perma-vigor is better, it could be argued that it is harder to obtain and the class has to be built a certain way to maintain vigor. That is a playstyle choice that not everybody wants to make is all I was getting at. I’m not disagreeing in the slightest.
I honestly never noticed vigor was +100%. I have energy sigils on my weapons along with 5 points in WS, so even if I do have vigor applied, I never really directly noticed its exact effect on the builds I run. So I learned something.
yeah i’m glad you didn’t think so either – it’s a thin line between debate and argument but i think we were ok lol
I agree that it’s much more of an investment to have perma-vigour, so the situation would seldom come up. And it is v.tough to notice vigor’s effect when running at least 5 points in WS as even though you’re getting an extra 50% on your base endurace regen, it’s effectively +33% increase, which doesn’t make nearly as much impact as the doubled regen speed most classes would notice.
AMEN! Listen to what this guy is talking about. Quickness every 20 seconds gives you 10% bonus on DPS, considering you switch every time possible.
Not to mention quick stomping, quick reviving, quick mining, among other stuff!
Also, 50% vigor is the best passive we have.
I used to run a similar dps build with those traits, untill i discovered that in wvw a warrior/mesmer/thief/ele/guardian/ ….mechanic…could out dps you with auto attacks…
yes, quickening zephyr is good, but a 45 second cool down = too long, not to mention you cant heal. That’s why i switched over to tank condition ranger, witch gives sustained DPS, AOE and a supporting tank, witch is almost on par with most other classes…(i have my complaints)
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