Guild Wars 2

this would open up a lot of new builds in spvp, and probably in WvW. knights, cavalier, settler and zerker stats would be used quite a bit.

currently, we dont have a high HP medium armor prof. there is no reason for this to not happen for the ranger. thieves have stealth and spammable evades, engies have a ton of invuln and blocks…these guys don’t need it.

Hold on. Anet balancing prediction!

“Because there is a lack of a high health pool medium armor class, we are going to make Engineers the class with the highest. With that in mind, because of the Daredevil elite specialization, Thieves will be bumped to a medium health pool and Rangers lowered to the smallest health pool. To compensate, pet vitality will be increased by 7%.”

We got tons of evades, mild stealth, damage invulnerability, tons of condi cleanse, taunt/blind/weakness and on and on and on.

I cant believe people think rangers don’t have enough hp.

Justine.6351:

We got tons of evades, damage invulnerability,

no, we do not.

Justine.6351:

We got tons of evades, mild stealth, damage invulnerability, tons of condi cleanse, taunt/blind/weakness and on and on and on.

I cant believe people think rangers don’t have enough hp.

All the evades are on both of the melee weapons making them almost mandatory for devensive purposes. One skill on lb that requires you to actually hit an enemy is mild stealth? Rangers have zero sources of invulnerability, very little condition cleanse actually, and taunt/blind/weakness is ok yeah because beastmastery is pretty strong.

I don’t think rangers have too little hp though because I personally think it is the most balanced class in the game, simply because everything about it is average.

mistsim.2748:

Justine.6351:

We got tons of evades, damage invulnerability,

no, we do not.

my ranger do… 1 block, 5 evades and 1 LONG invuln.. not even counting traits or normal dodges or anything

Sigfodr.9576:

mistsim.2748:

Justine.6351:

We got tons of evades, damage invulnerability,

no, we do not.

my ranger do… 1 block, 5 evades and 1 LONG invuln.. not even counting traits or normal dodges or anything

yet you are still rallybait. interesting.

thieves i could see getting a bump someday. they dont have the tools, even with DD, to make a real nonstealth build work. that said, a defensive bump + stealth is too strong, and “too strong” will be the first thing players try to do.

rangers are fine and have access to some of the best HPS in the game. if anything, warriors base health should be brought down a bit.

Raven.9603:

rangers are fine and have access to some of the best HPS in the game. if anything, warriors base health should be brought down a bit.

This right here is very true. Our traited heal skills have some of the best HPS values in the game, without even requiring any healing power.

HPS is completely useless without healing power. currently, rangers using stats with HP, other than celestial, are instagibbed. this is exactly why this change would be so good. we’d be able to use cleric and settler once again, which we currently cannot. at 16k HP and 3k armor, rangers are practically two-shot by any good Mesmer.

Sigfodr.9576:

mistsim.2748:

Justine.6351:

We got tons of evades, damage invulnerability,

no, we do not.

my ranger do… 1 block, 5 evades and 1 LONG invuln.. not even counting traits or normal dodges or anything

Well its interesting that you count hornet sting as an evade since the delay on it gets you dead. Also signet of stone is not an invuln you can still get condi bombed unless you were talking about protect me, I don’t know if that absorbs condi damage or not because I believe in managing my pet and not killing them so I haven’t used that skill since launch

This is a strange thread. Please see the Heim’s 50 build list thread. Settler is arguably one of the best amulets for PvP Rangers now. I can’t remember the last time I lost a 1v1 or 2v2 with it, and I queue Ranked every day.

Rangers have no evasion? I don’t understand. Maybe you should elaborate?

I posted a similar thread before and stand by what I said. If a profession needs to be put up to high health, then it should be the Ranger (and it should be considered as a possible buff for a profession that wants them), while the Engineer is maintained as the jack of all trades middle of the road profession. Originally, the Warrior was supposed to have a high natural health pool to allow them to not die instantly from their lack of condi removal. Since then, the warrior has gained a dozen methods of dealing with conditions, while the ranger has gained… Strength of the Fittest, which is now mutually exclusive to our other cleansing trait. Rangers clearly have a weakness to conditions that wasn’t intended, as our most fitting weakness is our greatest asset turned against us, we are two targets not one. Higher health would give us a larger buffer against condition damage, especially on toughness/healing power builds.

SemiProBBQ.8946:

Sigfodr.9576:

my ranger do… 1 block, 5 evades and 1 LONG invuln.. not even counting traits or normal dodges or anything

Well its interesting that you count hornet sting as an evade since the delay on it gets you dead. Also signet of stone is not an invuln you can still get condi bombed unless you were talking about protect me, I don’t know if that absorbs condi damage or not because I believe in managing my pet and not killing them so I haven’t used that skill since launch

A delayed evade is still an evade. Just because it’s difficult to use doesn’t mean it stops being there.

All the Necros on this page are laughing at your so called “no evades, no blocks, no invuln”. Come back when they remove Signet of Stone (the longest immunity to direct damage in the game), greatsword #4, sword #2 and #3, shortbow #3, dagger #4, and “Protect Me” (to a limited extent). Then you can have you HP increased to Necro level.

Warrior has plenty of hard CC (opponents can’t hurt you if they’re stunned), weakness, shield, greatsword’s whirlwind attack, mace block, sword block, a lower cooldown shorter duration signet of stone that can also be traited to occur automatically (resulting in 2 4 second invulnerabilities, each on a 60s cooldown. Its duration increases if you trait for it). All that while having the highest armour and highest health pool in the game.

Necromancers meanwhile have deathshroud and some of the most powerful healing sources in the game, but lack when it comes to damage negation. Necromancers are highly capable of taking on opponents in a defensive role and because they’re scholars the high health pool is necessary to fulfil the role. If they had a medium health pool I have no doubt they would fail miserably as they want to build toughness for synergy with their ability to severely punish conditions placed on them and lifesteal. The Necromancer has many powerful defensive tools, they’re just not blocks or dodges.

Warrior has everything you said the Ranger has Lahmia as well as a high health pool with heavy armour replacing the animal companion.

I really don’t think ranger survivability has a problem.

I think we have a melee DPS problem.

I really don’t see the need for this. Ranger does not die often at all in spvp. Signet of Stone, Wolf, Hunter’s Shot and Survival builds are more than enough. If anything they need more group support in spvp, but I think we shouldn’t be spending our time in this before things that are a higher priority, like what this guy said:

Sube Dai.8496:

I really don’t think ranger survivability has a problem.

I think we have a melee DPS problem.

Sube Dai.8496:

I really don’t think ranger survivability has a problem.

I think we have a melee DPS problem.

^ This. Our melee DPS is too low, forcing us into hybrid or condition bunker builds.

I like the idea of a bigger health pool, that could help somehow.

If you actually get involved in the combat, and don’t play your Bearbow ranger pewpewing with LB from 2000 units while you use your teammates as meatgrinder actually we have a lot of problems surviving melee burst or conditions.

Anet should move Empathic Bond to BM, i still can’t understand what it is doing in WS. Maybe i don’t want to use WS and i’d to use BM. But right now WS is mandatory.

To whom think GS damage is too low, GS is an utility weapon. If you want DPS power melee use the sword.

Archon.6480:

Sube Dai.8496:

I really don’t think ranger survivability has a problem.

I think we have a melee DPS problem.

^ This. Our melee DPS is too low, forcing us into hybrid or condition bunker builds.

Agree here, if the melee was more reward for the risk, then health pool would not be an issue. I don’t really agree that it is in the 1st place. If a short evade was put on sword #1 and the animation was easier to break, MH Sword would be fine. If the GS attack speed and scaling was improved, it would also be very good. Evades negate damage so increase your effective health pool by a huge amount over static health.

Another 4k hp would be gone in one crit. Ranger have lot of evades but while your evading your not dealing damage (unless your condi).

We don’t need more damage. Even without stacking might like some of the other classes our damage is good. When up against anyone it isn’t the damage that decides the fight but the actives and passive defences.

Rapid fire can do 10k damage and path of scar another 8k. This does include the damage our pet can do with open strike. The problem is that passive defense makes a big difference. While active evading is fine you are also not dealing damage in that moment.

Passive effect like defy pain allows a warrior to not take physical damage while at the same time allowing him to unleash everything he has (negating 100% physical damage and not limiting his damage output). A defensive passive is what we need ( not bark skin in its current form).

The ability to dance around and not deal damage and running away isn’t a play style we should be proud of. Some think rangers should stand off point and rapid fire all day this isn’t good either. With the influx of reflect and block skill it isn’t the brightest idea.

Nothing wrong with softening your target get up and then going in for the kill.

This highlights a problem we cant agree on what we need. Yes there are thing we all what but what do we really need.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

Another 4k hp would be gone in one crit. Ranger have lot of evades but while your evading your not dealing damage (unless your condi).

We don’t need more damage. Even without stacking might like some of the other classes our damage is good. When up against anyone it isn’t the damage that decides the fight but the actives and passive defences.

Rapid fire can do 10k damage and path of scar another 8k. This does include the damage our pet can do with open strike. The problem is that passive defense makes a big difference. While active evading is fine you are also not dealing damage in that moment.

Passive effect like defy pain allows a warrior to not take physical damage while at the same time allowing him to unleash everything he has (negating 100% physical damage and not limiting his damage output). A defensive passive is what we need ( not bark skin in its current form).

The ability to dance around and not deal damage and running away isn’t a play style we should be proud of. Some think rangers should stand off point and rapid fire all day this isn’t good either. With the influx of reflect and block skill it isn’t the brightest idea.

Nothing wrong with softening your target get up and then going in for the kill.

This highlights a problem we cant agree on what we need. Yes there are thing we all what but what do we really need.

Ranger melee damage is nowhere near warrior, thief or guard. Nowhere near it.

And @anduriel, you obviously don’t PvP. You can’t use mainhand sword in a power build.

GS is the only choice because it offers some burst, albeit small.

Sure you can use a 1h sword in a power build. 1h sword with quickness can destroy someone quickly add that with path of scar and its good game. Unless their are saved by a passive.

While people focus on damage it defense that makes the difference.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

Sure you can use a 1h sword in a power build. 1h sword with quickness can destroy someone quickly add that with path of scar and its good game. Unless their are saved by a passive.

While people focus on damage it defense that makes the difference.

S/a is not viable in PvP.

Dueling yes, conquest no.

Every fight in conquest isn’t a team fight. You also have a second weapon set. It is more how you use it than what you use.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

Passive effect like defy pain allows a warrior to not take physical damage while at the same time allowing him to unleash everything he has (negating 100% physical damage and not limiting his damage output). A defensive passive is what we need ( not bark skin in its current form).

Protective Ward is one of the strongest defensive passives in the game, especially when combined with bark skin. Survability is not a problem for rangers, and even if i were, aktive defense would be better. The game has already too much passive kitten, don’t add more.

@ melee weapons

Sword lacks cleave and spamming autoattack leaves you very vulnerable to enemy burst, therefore it is not good in teamfights for other things than defense. GS cleaves, but the dmg is too low, to be effective enough at cleaving.

Sube Dai.8496:

Serraphin Storm.2369:

Sure you can use a 1h sword in a power build. 1h sword with quickness can destroy someone quickly add that with path of scar and its good game. Unless their are saved by a passive.

While people focus on damage it defense that makes the difference.

S/a is not viable in PvP.

Dueling yes, conquest no.

You are using it wrong. GS is an utility weapon there is no sense to put more damage into it, because already have too many evades, blocks and mobility.

If you want DPS you can use sword, it’s an amazing weapon with 2 evades that work most of the time and an AA that stick you to the target no matter what. It is a great weapon in PvP and big bosses fights.

Condition melee builds can use Axe main hand, the AA has a cast time of only 1/4 second so is even faster than the sword.

I don’t know what you are all complaining about, ranger is the most balanced class in game.

anduriell.6280:

…Condition melee builds can use Axe main hand, the AA has a cast time of only 1/4 second so is even faster than the sword…

I think you are forgetting about the 3/4s aftercast, so it is really only one AA per second.

mistsim.2748:

at 16k HP and 3k armor, rangers are practically two-shot by any good Mesmer.

And this shows the problem with GW2’s PvP. Doesn’t matter how much armor you have when you can still get crit for 5k+.

warherox.7943:

mistsim.2748:

at 16k HP and 3k armor, rangers are practically two-shot by any good Mesmer.

And this shows the problem with GW2’s PvP. Doesn’t matter how much armor you have when you can still get crit for 5k+.

GW2 has dodges, evades or invulns to allow you to take no damage at all. If it didn’t, then armor would be more important, but it does. If you take the 5k hit, its because you didn’t dodge at the right time or position yourself correctly. This game is more about good play than stats, so armor is only a minor part of play. People who have played a lot of other MMOs make this mistake all the time because they are very much about stats.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

warherox.7943:

mistsim.2748:

at 16k HP and 3k armor, rangers are practically two-shot by any good Mesmer.

And this shows the problem with GW2’s PvP. Doesn’t matter how much armor you have when you can still get crit for 5k+.

GW2 has dodges, evades or invulns to allow you to take no damage at all. If it didn’t, then armor would be more important, but it does. If you take the 5k hit, its because you didn’t dodge at the right time or position yourself correctly. This game is more about good play than stats, so armor is only a minor part of play. People who have played a lot of other MMOs make this mistake all the time because they are very much about stats.

That argument would hold a lot more water if he hadn’t specifically mentioned mesmer who can burst you from stealth.

anduriell.6280:

GS is an utility weapon there is no sense to put more damage into it,

According to ? Just because you have convinced yourself of that it doesn’t make it true.

I’d argue GS is meant to be or dps weapon. Maul is a burst, swoop and crippling throw hits for a decent amount and keeps the enemy in melee range, and hilt bash sets you up for a MoC burst.

If they would just fix the auto attack damage you would instantly see less bearbow complaints since people would start going melee a lot more often.
Also with all the counters to ranged damage being added with the expansion they really need to beef up our melee to compensate.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

anduriell.6280:

…Condition melee builds can use Axe main hand, the AA has a cast time of only 1/4 second so is even faster than the sword…

I think you are forgetting about the 3/4s aftercast, so it is really only one AA per second.

That’s working as intended.
Oh wait, are you saying that actually we have no good melee weapon we can use?

Puck.9612:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

warherox.7943:

mistsim.2748:

at 16k HP and 3k armor, rangers are practically two-shot by any good Mesmer.

And this shows the problem with GW2’s PvP. Doesn’t matter how much armor you have when you can still get crit for 5k+.

GW2 has dodges, evades or invulns to allow you to take no damage at all. If it didn’t, then armor would be more important, but it does. If you take the 5k hit, its because you didn’t dodge at the right time or position yourself correctly. This game is more about good play than stats, so armor is only a minor part of play. People who have played a lot of other MMOs make this mistake all the time because they are very much about stats.

That argument would hold a lot more water if he hadn’t specifically mentioned mesmer who can burst you from stealth.

Sure they can, if they take you by surprise, in which case you wouldn’t have been able to dodge it anyway, meaning your situational awareness is not up to scratch. Plus the clones etc are not stealthed. If you saw the Mesmer go into stealth, its still a L2P issue as you have many options to create distance, kite, block, evade, taunt, fear, immob etc. More armor is helpful in those situations, but the absolute majority of damage mitigation is from dodges and evades etc.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Puck.9612:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

warherox.7943:

mistsim.2748:

at 16k HP and 3k armor, rangers are practically two-shot by any good Mesmer.

And this shows the problem with GW2’s PvP. Doesn’t matter how much armor you have when you can still get crit for 5k+.

GW2 has dodges, evades or invulns to allow you to take no damage at all. If it didn’t, then armor would be more important, but it does. If you take the 5k hit, its because you didn’t dodge at the right time or position yourself correctly. This game is more about good play than stats, so armor is only a minor part of play. People who have played a lot of other MMOs make this mistake all the time because they are very much about stats.

That argument would hold a lot more water if he hadn’t specifically mentioned mesmer who can burst you from stealth.

Sure they can, if they take you by surprise, in which case you wouldn’t have been able to dodge it anyway, meaning your situational awareness is not up to scratch. Plus the clones etc are not stealthed. If you saw the Mesmer go into stealth, its still a L2P issue as you have many options to create distance, kite, block, evade, taunt, fear, immob etc. More armor is helpful in those situations, but the absolute majority of damage mitigation is from dodges and evades etc.

Yeah, if you saw them go into stealth, which isn’t always possible when they can chain together close to a minute of stealth. And before anyone says “mesmers don’t just hang around in stealth all day”, there are plenty of situations where they will approach you fully stealthed. If you are in PvP they can see a point is being contested, in WvW someone else may have spotted you and given your location over chat or TS, etc.

when I think of the medium armor clasess, which one should have the highest health: it is the Ranger. Hardened, wandering survivor that has to adapt to all sort of troubles, including things that has brought him close to death, only to come out stronger. I support this idea

mistsim.2748:

Justine.6351:

We got tons of evades, damage invulnerability,

no, we do not.

We can have 18s of pure invulnerability, we have the most access to invuln in the entire game, yes, yes we do.

18 seconds from where.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

18 seconds from where.

I think he is factoring in evasion from s/d or block from GS. Something like,
Quickdraw: Serpents strike Stalkers strike, hornet sting
SoS
Protect Mah Authoritah
Serpents strike, stalkers strike, hornet sting.
____________________________
Would be roughly 3 sec of evade, 12 sec of physical immunity, 3 sec of evade = 18sec.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

18 seconds from where.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Protect_Me!%22

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Stone

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forage_

Factor in all the evasion and blocks we have too and it’ll get much higher, not to mention we have what is probably the highest HPS in the game, and it’s far from bad even without healing power and the amount of CC our pets can pump out even while we’re downed/CCed is ridiculous.

NOTE the tooltip for elixir of heroes is wrong, it has been since beta, it lasts 6s not 3s.

Signet of stone, protect me aren’t invulns.

Mcrocha.3891:

Signet of stone, protect me aren’t invulns.

If you are going to narrow-mindedly consider only things like mistform and distortion as “invulns” then there is no use arguing. Endure Pain is widely considered an invuln despite condition damage technicalities and likewise so is SoS and Protect Me. You are more interested in semantics than actually contributing to the discussion.

The point was:

No, rangers dont need more HP, we have good HPS, good access to evades, and good access to invulns (^physical invulnerability only. “Invuln” is not available in CT, MA or California. Trolls and Conditions may apply**).

Durzlla.6295:

mistsim.2748:

Justine.6351:

We got tons of evades, damage invulnerability,

no, we do not.

We can have 18s of pure invulnerability, we have the most access to invuln in the entire game, yes, yes we do.

Please elaborate on any working build that isn’t made for hotjoin, only. Thanks.

And that so almighty invulnerability is not so invulnerable considering 12 seconds that only block Direct Damage and lets condis go through full, and 6 out of 12 seconds is just a damage transfer (so not really invulnerability).
Warriors can be considered the ones with Invulnerability. Not us.

Raven.9603:

Mcrocha.3891:

Signet of stone, protect me aren’t invulns.

If you are going to narrow-mindedly consider only things like mistform and distortion as “invulns” then there is no use arguing. Endure Pain is widely considered an invuln despite condition damage technicalities and likewise so is SoS and Protect Me. You are more interested in semantics than actually contributing to the discussion.

The point was:

No, rangers dont need more HP, we have good HPS, good access to evades, and good access to invulns (^physical invulnerability only. “Invuln” is not available in CT, MA or California. Trolls and Conditions may apply**).

Ranger’s don’t really need higher HP. That’s true.
What we need is a complete design look-at and buffs at pets, traits and weapons.

If we could compete with other classes – higher HP wouldn’t be needed.
But since we are not getting any – higher HP becomes a solution for several issues we experience without affecting PvE whatsoever.

The point is
The game is not won through evades, healing and damage mitigation when you can’t support it up with anything else unlike guardians.

Raven.9603:

Mcrocha.3891:

Signet of stone, protect me aren’t invulns.

If you are going to narrow-mindedly consider only things like mistform and distortion as “invulns” then there is no use arguing. Endure Pain is widely considered an invuln despite condition damage technicalities and likewise so is SoS and Protect Me. You are more interested in semantics than actually contributing to the discussion.

The point was:

No, rangers dont need more HP, we have good HPS, good access to evades, and good access to invulns (^physical invulnerability only. “Invuln” is not available in CT, MA or California. Trolls and Conditions may apply**).

Well semantics are actually important in this case. I didn’t know it was narrow-minded to consider Mist Form and Distortion invulnerabilities because they actually are invulnerabilities. To say that SoS and Protect Me are invulnerabilities is false because they are not.

The POINT of my statement sir was that it is false to say that Rangers have 18s of invulnerability in the form of SoS and Protect Me. It is factually incorrect and spreads misinformation to the uninformed. You could say that Rangers have plenty of damage mitigation in the form of blocks, evades, physical immunity etc, but that still doesn’t include invulnerability. Nice job failing to make a joke and instead flaming me by calling me a troll.

Tragic Positive.9356:

Durzlla.6295:

mistsim.2748:

Justine.6351:

We got tons of evades, damage invulnerability,

no, we do not.

We can have 18s of pure invulnerability, we have the most access to invuln in the entire game, yes, yes we do.

Please elaborate on any working build that isn’t made for hotjoin, only. Thanks.

And that so almighty invulnerability is not so invulnerable considering 12 seconds that only block Direct Damage and lets condis go through full, and 6 out of 12 seconds is just a damage transfer (so not really invulnerability).
Warriors can be considered the ones with Invulnerability. Not us.

the only reason you don’t see any actual builds running 2 or more of the invulns we have access to is because WE DONT NEED IT, Warriors without their “slam face on utility keys to get invuln” build were considered trash because they’d just die. Where is rangers run most builds without taking a single one of our 3 invulns and have little to no issue surviving.

That alone proves that us needing more health because we have no survivability is bull kitten, and if you wanted to go for a trolly invuln build and literally just sit on a point being a kitten the whole game you can. But we don’t because we, unlike guardians, are capable of doing more than just falling on a point and not moving because of our mobility and range access.

Just because something isn’t meta, doesn’t mean it’s not good.

Tragic Positive.9356:

Raven.9603:

Mcrocha.3891:

Signet of stone, protect me aren’t invulns.

If you are going to narrow-mindedly consider only things like mistform and distortion as “invulns” then there is no use arguing. Endure Pain is widely considered an invuln despite condition damage technicalities and likewise so is SoS and Protect Me. You are more interested in semantics than actually contributing to the discussion.

The point was:

No, rangers dont need more HP, we have good HPS, good access to evades, and good access to invulns (^physical invulnerability only. “Invuln” is not available in CT, MA or California. Trolls and Conditions may apply**).

Ranger’s don’t really need higher HP. That’s true.
What we need is a complete design look-at and buffs at pets, traits and weapons.

If we could compete with other classes – higher HP wouldn’t be needed.
But since we are not getting any – higher HP becomes a solution for several issues we experience without affecting PvE whatsoever.

The point is
The game is not won through evades, healing and damage mitigation when you can’t support it up with anything else unlike guardians.

Currently the game isn’t even won with skill, it’s won by whoever has the most D/D eles.

Durzlla.6295:

Serraphin Storm.2369:

18 seconds from where.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Protect_Me!%22

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Stone

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forage_

Factor in all the evasion and blocks we have too and it’ll get much higher, not to mention we have what is probably the highest HPS in the game, and it’s far from bad even without healing power and the amount of CC our pets can pump out even while we’re downed/CCed is ridiculous.

NOTE the tooltip for elixir of heroes is wrong, it has been since beta, it lasts 6s not 3s.

The problem is items forage by your pet can be used by your enemy. The other problem with this is its to rng you don’t know what your going to get.

Like so many things with the ranger it looks good on paper but, in game not so much.

Bark skin in its current form is pretty sad one hit and its gone. So I have to use my defenses to keep my defense trait active. The trait may as well be: first hit is reduce by 33% if you have full life.

Protective warden is like warrior spiked armor but ours is a gm master. Its also in Nm so if we wanted to use it with bark skin we have to make sacrifices because they are in two different lines.

I’ve never felt like one of our problems was our base HP…

Also, I’ve used settlers since… Forever. It’s even better than it has ever been since spec patch.

Durzlla.6295:

Currently the game isn’t even won with skill, it’s won by whoever has the most D/D eles.

Sad but true.