Guild Wars 2

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Ranger-Spam-to-win-2-8/first

This link takes you to a thread that is part of a series of planned threads with the goal of global profession balance. I’d like to open up the thread to the Ranger Forum’s opinions.

By “global profession balance” I mean that my goals for balancing skills adhere to simple governing rules about how combat works in GW2:

BALANCE GOALS TO GOVERN ALL COMBAT IN GW2

• Excessive spam shouldn’t be a factor in combat because there are no defined healers to address it.
• No offensive skill aside from auto-attack skills should have short cool-downs or activation-times. By adding longer cast-times and supplemental charge-up mechanics to offensive skills, combat will be more legible. More legible combat will bring active dodging and keen positioning back into GW2’s forefront as a means of mitigating damage.
• Condispam should not be more effective than Power Builds because it undermines active damage mitigation by just spamming throwaway skills that never stop onto an opponent. This turns combat into a face-roll of who can press the most buttons the fastest and limits the effectiveness of keen positioning and clutch damage mitigation such as single blocks or dodges.
• Conditions can be as effective as Power just so long as the skills that inflict conditions are as well cued and have both adequate cool-downs and cast-times when compared to their power-based counterparts. This way, dodging, positioning and timing will be viable ways to counter conditions.

FACTORS THAT BALANCE RANGED COMBAT IN GW2:
Guild Wars 2 is a game that was designed to have players read their opponent’s skill cues. To this effect, ANet has designed several manners of reading an opponent’s skills such as:

• Post-cast delays
• Red circles
• Projectiles
• On-caster visual cues
• Long cast-times
• Projectiles that can be blocked, reflected or destroyed
• Gap-closer skills that requires the player to run or leap to a target/target area

However, despite these various cues, there are a many slew of skills in GW2 that forego 2 or more of the above balancing principles. These skills should be looked at critically and probably nerfed or functionally changed in order to bring them into line with how combat should appear in-game. Giving certain weapon sets or play-styles free hits for certain skill usage in a game where the “holy trinity” is absent is asking for trouble. Overpowered ranged skills in this game need to be wrangled back into obedience governed by the balancing principles listed above.

ATTRITION GAME-PLAY IN GW2
In the current meta-game, power is at a disadvantage because it has to actually hit a target while conditions just sort of float about thanks to spammy AoE skills, short cast-times, the ranged nature of most condition skills and passive procs. None of those have to constantly hit, the condition player just gets to use skills willy-nilly and all the while get in damage for free because of conditions. The system is flawed and should really be looked at critically.

Power-based damage should be king with conditions being a supplement. Conditions should only be a viable means of killing an opponent if the skills that apply those conditions are well telegraphed, have appropriately long activation times and long recharges. Attrition combat should be attained through movement control.

Stating that power should be king and conditions should be support only sounds like an oppinion rathe than a design principle, and not one that I share.

Why should all conditions attacks have long activation and long recharge? Thieves are the biggest users of power builds and they have neither of these, and rely almost exclusively on #1 for damage in some builds.

Conditions are already weaker than power builds by simply looking at DPS. No full condition spec can match the damage potential of a full power build.

“limits the effectiveness of keen positioning” No it doesnt. Positioning is the only way I beat necros and conditions engis in my build. I dont take regen, I only have EB for condition removal and there is no ranger spec which can burst conditions like an engi or necro. I win by using and frankly abusing the rangers ability to evade, moving in, applying some conditions and getting the hell out before they can burst back. It 100% about movement and postion in such encounters. Condtions builds are almost always countered by not running in like a lunatic and getting bombed to all hell before realising it was a bad idea.

Power builds can play ranged as well, its not a condition build thing, they just choose not to because power players seem to have a thing for big numbers. Take warriors for example.. Rifle is a beast – 1200 range, strong consistant DPS, cc, and a big KO hit for when its appropite. Noone uses it though, not even for roaming or 1v1s because theyd rather take a GS and hit 20k in under 5 seconds, only to realise they cant do that vs someone who has taken the lower DPS ranged weapon because they are being kited like a fool.

The ONLY thing I could agree to is that this game (specifically rangers, but other classes to) needs more active ways to remove conditions. Even a game wide mechanic like dodging might be cool.

But generally.. No.

Cufufalating.8479:

Why should all conditions attacks have long activation and long recharge? Thieves are the biggest users of power builds and they have neither of these, and rely almost exclusively on #1 for damage in some builds.

Although this sort of thread is specialized for Rangers, it’s part of a series to address global balance as a whole. Thieves are by far the worst rule-breakers when it comes to how this game’s combat should be governed. In all honesty, it would be easiest to delete thieves from the game instead of attempt to fix them, but people won’t want that so I’ll have to do my best to somehow fix that awful mess of a class.

Cufufalating.8479:

Conditions are already weaker than power builds by simply looking at DPS. No full condition spec can match the damage potential of a full power build.

Not necessarily true. While a power build has to land its attacks to be effective, a condition spec has to just spam skills and then kite around while the target dies. This is due to the typical design of a condition-related skill. They’re spammy, throwaway skills that a player gets to use for free. The spam blur adds up and makes it difficult if not impossible for an opponent to mitigate incoming damage with well-timed actions such as dodges or single blocks.

Cufufalating.8479:

“limits the effectiveness of keen positioning” No it doesnt. Positioning is the only way I beat necros and conditions engis in my build.

You completely misread that. The problem is that the Engineer and the Necromancer get to attack for free from almost anywhere because of the nature of their poorly-cued, no-set-up-time, condition-related skills.

This thread isn’t about how to beat an opponent, it’s about fixing spam-oriented specs.

Cufufalating.8479:

Power builds can play ranged as well,

Again, this sort of thing is not outside of my scope. Certain ranged power builds also need to be toned down.

Even so, Light of Sight is a thing and players should learn to capitalize on that when fighting a ranged player in general.

Cufufalating.8479:

But generally.. No.

I don’t think that you even actually followed the link. Despite the governing list of rules that I’ve placed at the top of this thread, the respective goals of the individual profession threads are different. Ranger’s biggest balance issue is that it’s very spam-oriented. I’m trying to fix that by better defining its individual weapon skills.

The other goal is the complete removal of Spirit RNG. RNG passive procs in general are terrible for GW2’s combat. In a game without dedicated healers that is supposed to function around players being able to mitigate damage via dodges and small self-healing capabilities, having passive RNG procs (offensive or defensive) is the worst possible idea. It completely takes out counterplayability.

I did follow the link, although I will admit I did not read the entire thing.

I dont completely disagree with you on some aspects of some condition builds being spammy and I do dislike spirit builds myself, but I dont see how you get from that to “Power-based damage should be king with conditions being a supplement.”

Ignoring spammy condition builds, as you say, what exactly is wrong with a full condition build and why should it not be as strong as a power build? Any why do you think ranged builds are overpowered?

You may have one or two fair points but your thread, to me, seem to basicly read “Every class should be like the warrior, and everyone should be like a warrior. Full melee, full power, big sword slug fest till the last man is standing”. That is essentially what you seem to be proposing by saying conditions should be support only and range build should be nerfed (even though they already have significantly lower damage).

Cufufalating.8479:

I did follow the link, although I will admit I did not read the entire thing.

I dont completely disagree with you on some aspects of some condition builds being spammy and I do dislike spirit builds myself, but I dont see how you get from that to “Power-based damage should be king with conditions being a supplement.”

Ignoring spammy condition builds, as you say, what exactly is wrong with a full condition build and why should it not be as strong as a power build? Any why do you think ranged builds are overpowered?

You may have one or two fair points but your thread, to me, seem to basicly read “Every class should be like the warrior, and everyone should be like a warrior. Full melee, full power, big sword slug fest till the last man is standing”. That is essentially what you seem to be proposing by saying conditions should be support only and range build should be nerfed (even though they already have significantly lower damage).

I’ve read through his posts and I completely agree with you… Nothing more to say

“Overpowered ranged skills in this game need to be wrangled back into obedience governed by the balancing principles listed above.”

I don’t think we are playing the same game here.

Overall, your ideas of “balance” and change are similar to what the devs have done. It’s been a bunch of number shuffling and reshuffling that has ignored major design flaws and issues. Almost nothing you suggested in the other thread moves this game forward. I’d like to suggest that you really look at things from a macro point of view before you keep tossing more unnecessary number shuffling ideas at the devs and this community.

Have a great day!

I replied in the thread so self-aggrandized. “OP has no clue” would be my succinct answer.

copied out of the other thread:

the class mechanic need to be fixed before it can be balanced.

• Pets need to hit their targets -> increase attack range or attack while moving
• Pets have to scale with rangers stats -> no condition bunker build with high burst damage anymore
• Pets need damage reduction -> active dodge or passive block/evade every X seconds
• Pets have to go out or AoE damage by them selved or get an aoe damage reduction

These 4 basic things need to be fixed, before the rangers skills/traita get balanced.

whyme.3281:

copied out of the other thread:

the class mechanic need to be fixed before it can be balanced.

• Pets need to hit their targets -> increase attack range or attack while moving
• Pets have to scale with rangers stats -> no condition bunker build with high burst damage anymore
• Pets need damage reduction -> active dodge or passive block/evade every X seconds
• Pets have to go out or AoE damage by them selved or get an aoe damage reduction

These 4 basic things need to be fixed, before the rangers skills/traita get balanced.

Everything Whyme wrote, and I would like to add Ranger pets shouldn’t need a signet/trait to run faster.

whyme.3281:

• Pets have to scale with rangers stats -> no condition bunker build with high burst damage anymore

There is scaling, the beast mastery line, if a bunker wants to run a cat, let them, but turning a cat into a bear based on the master’s gear seems silly. They could perhaps scale pets based on the average gear level of the master, but even that doesn’t make much sense.

I never said every pet should scale with the same stats equally.

Cats for example should scale good with power and precision, medium with vita and thoughness and bad with condition damage.
Bears good with vita, thoughness, medium with power and precision bad with condition damage.
and so on.

So there will be pets that fit to some build better than others. But as it is right now, the cats give a bunker or condition build a huge advantage over a berserker build. You get 30+% of the damage a berserker deals with every build, you only need to take a cat with you.
If you take a spider with a berserker build you gain nothing, you lose 30% of your damage and deal no condition damage.

There are one or two builds in PvP that are extremly strong, because they abuse this issue. They run full tanky condition builds with cats. They deal full condition damage other clases would deal, but still hit like a truck, if the pet hits.

I don’t think pets need to move out of aoe on their own. If Whyme Ranger fixes were made. Zerker beast master would be unstoppable.

In that they would remain at max pet range and have the jugaur just stealth and kill without mercy.

At least thieves have to unstealth to attack. A stealth jaguar booster by its masters gear. While at the same time the Ranger would be well out of harms way and his prey is stuck fighting and unecapable invisible foe that auto moves out of any aoe that the player tries to use.

I think that would bit just a wee bit OP. Ranger have the ability to call their pets back. They should ’nt be an auto response greater that what a player is capable of.

I wouldnt call it OP, I would call it nteresting.

Numbers on the skills need to be tweaked and base stats of the pets drasticly lowered, thats for sure. And then it woulndt be that much of a problem. Maybe one of these four things would be too much, tests needs to proof that.

But in the end, we would see pets, that survive WvW, Dungeons and dont hit like a truck in condition builds. This would mean we can be balanced withoug destroying 3/4 of the other builds, because one build is too strong.

Nothing should be “king” of anything. You’re asking for balance yet suggesting something be unbalanced by being better than everything else- power. Some professions aren’t as effective with power as they are with conditions or precision, etc. If you want balance, everything should be applying the same base damage and nothing should be “better” than anything only players more fit for using them.
Power build versus condition build: Equally skilled players but power wins because it’s “king”? I don’t think so.
Power build versus condition build: Equally skilled players again but this time it’s any one’s game. Who ever uses their abilities at the appropriate times and evades accordingly wins.
= Balance.