Guild Wars 2

AI mobs don’t roll. And if you’re trying to calculate DPS on a human target then lol.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

AI mobs don’t roll.

No they don’t roll. But they do instantly start to move towards you if you get aggro. You might get them to stay in the red circle the entire duration if you positioned the barrage so they start at the far end and move through the entire circle to get to you. If they start near the center, then more likely they’ll be out of the circle well before the barrage ends.

It’s a great AOE skill and longbow’s only cripple skill, but as a DPS skill against single targets I think it’s highly overrated.

And if you’re trying to calculate DPS on a human target then lol.

For PvPers, the entire point of all this to calculate (potential) DPS on a human target. Just because it varies depending on the target’s actions doesn’t mean it’s useless to calculate as you seem to be implying. Some attacks are just easier to dodge than others, and barrage is one of the easiest to dodge. Almost as easy as the elementalist spike drop skills.

Awesome compilation, thanks!

Pretty good discussion and calculations in this thread so far.

One thing I don’t see that would be a consideration for something like dungeons and fractals is that you are playing in a party. Because of this, the vulnerability you apply with Rapid Fire has a higher effective damage output due to the fact that there are four other players taking advantage of it. Obviously what this number is will be highly situational, but can we get a reasonable estimate of what it might be in typical cases? I feel like this would be useful for comparing longbow and shortbow DPS for dungeons, since shortbow does not have an equivalent thing going on.

Solandri.9640:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

AI mobs don’t roll.

No they don’t roll. But they do instantly start to move towards you if you get aggro. You might get them to stay in the red circle the entire duration if you positioned the barrage so they start at the far end and move through the entire circle to get to you. If they start near the center, then more likely they’ll be out of the circle well before the barrage ends.

It’s a great AOE skill and longbow’s only cripple skill, but as a DPS skill against single targets I think it’s highly overrated.

And if you’re trying to calculate DPS on a human target then lol.

For PvPers, the entire point of all this to calculate (potential) DPS on a human target. Just because it varies depending on the target’s actions doesn’t mean it’s useless to calculate as you seem to be implying. Some attacks are just easier to dodge than others, and barrage is one of the easiest to dodge. Almost as easy as the elementalist spike drop skills.

Either the target’s moving towards you or it’s not. If it is, your Long Range Shot is also kitten and you might as well just drop Barrage on yourself, or better yet, swap weapons. If it’s not, then I don’t see the problem.

id be interested in spear dps… i cant help but feel that i do more with spear than GS (the tooltips imply spear AA takes longer; but it doesnt feel like it)

Linguistically Inept.6583:

id be interested in spear dps… i cant help but feel that i do more with spear than GS (the tooltips imply spear AA takes longer; but it doesnt feel like it)

The spear has much better better base damage values and damage coefficients.

Autoattacks:

Format:
Weapon
Number in Attack Chain) base damage value (damage coefficient)

Greatsword:
1) 203 (0.55)
2) 203 (0.55)
3) 240 (0.65)

Spear:
1) 269 (0.8)
2) 302 (0.9)
3) 336 (1.0)

I would LOVE for the greatsword to have the spears base values and damage coefficients.

Shh, don’t talk about spear. We don’t want it to be “fixed”.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Either the target’s moving towards you or it’s not. If it is, your Long Range Shot is also kitten

You can move while using LRS to try to stay at range. You can’t move the Barrage circle once you’ve pushed the button.

and you might as well just drop Barrage on yourself, or better yet, swap weapons. If it’s not, then I don’t see the problem.

The problem is that Barrage DPS suffers if the target moves out of the circle. I pointed that out because the way the skill mechanics work, it’s highly unlikely a target will remain in it for the full duration, and therefore it’s misleading to use the maximum potential DPS of Barrage for comparisons. Yes it has the highest possible DPS of the longbow skills, but in real gameplay that potential is rarely fully met. I tend to save it so it’s available in case an AOE situation crops up. A common PvP tactic is to save it for use as an area denial tactic (e.g. barrage yourself to discourage someone from staying in melee range of you) or to smoke out stealthers.

Your position seems to be that this drawback never matters, and Barrage is always beneficial? That’s fine if you’re doing a 10 second overview of each skill. But when you’re doing a more in-depth analysis of the effectiveness of the different skills, caveats like the one I gave form a large part of the analysis. The smart player will learn these caveats, and use them to help decide when to use a skill, and when not to use it. You do not ignore the caveats of the skills you like, emphasize them for the skills you don’t like. You list them all and try to learn how they enhance or inhibit a skill’s usefulness in every type of situation you might encounter.

jcbroe.4329:

Greatsword:
1) 203 (0.55)
2) 203 (0.55)
3) 240 (0.65)

Spear:
1) 269 (0.8)
2) 302 (0.9)
3) 336 (1.0)

I would LOVE for the greatsword to have the spears base values and damage coefficients.

… thats depressing.

Solandri.9640:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Either the target’s moving towards you or it’s not. If it is, your Long Range Shot is also kitten

You can move while using LRS to try to stay at range. You can’t move the Barrage circle once you’ve pushed the button.

and you might as well just drop Barrage on yourself, or better yet, swap weapons. If it’s not, then I don’t see the problem.

The problem is that Barrage DPS suffers if the target moves out of the circle. I pointed that out because the way the skill mechanics work, it’s highly unlikely a target will remain in it for the full duration, and therefore it’s misleading to use the maximum potential DPS of Barrage for comparisons. Yes it has the highest possible DPS of the longbow skills, but in real gameplay that potential is rarely fully met. I tend to save it so it’s available in case an AOE situation crops up. A common PvP tactic is to save it for use as an area denial tactic (e.g. barrage yourself to discourage someone from staying in melee range of you) or to smoke out stealthers.

Your position seems to be that this drawback never matters, and Barrage is always beneficial? That’s fine if you’re doing a 10 second overview of each skill. But when you’re doing a more in-depth analysis of the effectiveness of the different skills, caveats like the one I gave form a large part of the analysis. The smart player will learn these caveats, and use them to help decide when to use a skill, and when not to use it. You do not ignore the caveats of the skills you like, emphasize them for the skills you don’t like. You list them all and try to learn how they enhance or inhibit a skill’s usefulness in every type of situation you might encounter.

My “position” is that DPS is only relevant in PvE and you shouldn’t ever be missing with Barrage in PvE, especially given that the AOE is massive.

You’re both basically saying the same thing.
The more spacial elements something involves, the more ill-fitting Damage Per Second becomes as a meaningful measurement.

But, that doesn’t mean you can’t min/max. It just means you can’t min/max on DPS alone. You’ve got to additionally categorize things by their spacial and timing elements in a very general sense to accommodate for the risks of missing, and you’ve got to summarize your findings in broader strokes to accommodate for the higher performance variance.

Well I was just off watching a few Youtube video’s of GW2…………..

Damage numbers coming up there I can only ever dream about as a Ranger.

This is more of the sort of thing I’m used to….

Gotta love your second screenshot where you intentionally picked mobs that are always invulnerable.

And if you want big numbers run in an organized group.

http://youtu.be/3CZ5Z8ISNEA

Taku.6352:

Gotta love your second screenshot where you intentionally picked mobs that are always invulnerable.

And if you want big numbers run in an organized group.

http://youtu.be/3CZ5Z8ISNEA

Nah I didn’t “intentionally” pick mobs that are always invulnerable, that was actually during an invasion last night, I get that all the time, well not “all” the time but a lot of the time.

And I don’t want to see big numbers, they make me sad.

the figures usually speak for themselves, but when it comes to power, the longbow scales better then shortbow unless we are speaking of 0 range. The difference in power comes from a practical application of the weapon rather then theoretical. Simply put, at max range (1800 w/trait + bug abuse), you are more likely to get bonuses from flanking and full endurance then the shortbow, which is forced to stay in 900 range, which is pretty much medium to close quarters. Making the shortbow less powerful, as you are less likely to keep firing the bow without several interruptions due to dodging/evading incoming attacks.

All in all, LB is better, as it allows for more control, and less risk, coupled with unrivaled survivability given the damage it puts out (remorseless + full valkyrie and 10 points into Nature Magic for the “5% of vitality goes into power”. Which when using valkyrie, adds up to being a lot)

Prysin the ranger scalles better with crit dmg than with power. We are not like the warrior that needs tons of power
Our weapons scalling is to bad so crit dmg works much better

Zanzer.6450:

Sword – Slash (Full Combo) – 1,664 DPS
Great Sword – Slash (Full Combo) – 1,183 DPS

I find these two exceptionally dead-on. Good calculating sir.

Bambula.3649:

Prysin the ranger scalles better with crit dmg than with power. We are not like the warrior that needs tons of power
Our weapons scalling is to bad so crit dmg works much better

This doesn’t make any sense logically and is mathematically incorrect.

Math has been shown time and time again that no matter what the class, power scales better for increasing DPS than precision, but that a combination of both is the key.

I believe it’s this:

Precision is more beneficial than Power when d(Damage)/d(Precision) is greater than d(Damage)/d(Power) or:

Power – Precision + 832 > 2100 / (0.5 + Critdmg)

Plot for various values of critdamage to make your plot.

Taken from this thread, albeit, it is old, but still relevant: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Finding-the-Diminishing-Returns-in-Stats/first#post2040924

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1li5q3/breakeven_points_of_power_vs_precision_mathtable/

That’s the chart for power, precision, and crit damage.

I just thought… why to compare ranged and melee dps? As melee is (nearly) always better, ranged is used only in places where its advantages make up for less dps.
So maybe we should look how are ranger LB, SB and axe compared to other classes ranged weapons? I belive we are in decent place there, giving the “unpararelled archers” part some meaning.

Terkov.4138:

I just thought… why to compare ranged and melee dps? As melee is (nearly) always better, ranged is used only in places where its advantages make up for less dps.
So maybe we should look how are ranger LB, SB and axe compared to other classes ranged weapons? I belive we are in decent place there, giving the “unpararelled archers” part some meaning.

I actually believe ranger longbow is the strongest single target DPS at 1200 range, and shortbow may have the fastest time to kill out of any ranged weapon in the game, except maybe ele scepter.

Not sure on the second part, but I’m certain that if the longbow isn’t #1, then it’s #2.

jcbroe.4329:

Not sure on the second part, but I’m certain that if the longbow isn’t #1, then it’s #2.

In the tests I ran on the Mists golems before LB autoattack was improved, Warrior longbow (with #1, #2, and F1 skills) and warrior rifle (on autoattack) easily beat ranger longbow (#1, #2, #5 skills).

If you factor in the 25% DPS improvement to ranger LB autoattack, the kill times for the three weapons would be about the same (warrior still wins, barely – within the margin of error). Except warrior isn’t limited to 900+ range to maintain damage, isn’t rooted in place for 3 sec to get off his highest DPS skill, and with rifle doesn’t even have to do anything except point at the target. So I would rate ranger longbow as the #3 weapon at best (haven’t tested ele or mesmer).

Ranger wins if you add the pet though.

Solandri.9640:

jcbroe.4329:

Not sure on the second part, but I’m certain that if the longbow isn’t #1, then it’s #2.

In the tests I ran on the Mists golems before LB autoattack was improved, Warrior longbow (with #1, #2, and F1 skills) and warrior rifle (on autoattack) easily beat ranger longbow (#1, #2, #5 skills).

If you factor in the 25% DPS improvement to ranger LB autoattack, the kill times for the three weapons would be about the same (warrior still wins, barely – within the margin of error). Except warrior isn’t limited to 900+ range to maintain damage, isn’t rooted in place for 3 sec to get off his highest DPS skill, and with rifle doesn’t even have to do anything except point at the target. So I would rate ranger longbow as the #3 weapon at best (haven’t tested ele or mesmer).

Ranger wins if you add the pet though.

If I remember a thread created a few months back, Mesmers Greatsword takes about 1 second longer time to kill than a rangers longbow, not factoring in shatters (which also means rangers pet wasn’t a factor).

Also, and I know this is nitpicky, but Warrior Longbow is only 1200 range with a trait. Without traits, if the Warrior Rifle is still competing (which I thought would be the case), then Longbow still comes out at number 2 haha.

Admittedly that with a trait, it’s a valid argument that the warrior longbow out damages a ranger longbow lol.

I’d just prefer to analyze the problems ranger has as mainly trait based, because if you take the base performances of the ranger weapons against the base performances of other classes, the rangers weapons really don’t look that bad, being closer to top tier than bottom tier.

And THEN traits get factored in, and other classes get amazing DPS boosting traits, while barely any of the rangers traits provide any weapon improvements at all, at least not on the scale that other classes do for them.

Just a nitpicky thing, sorry lol. You’re not wrong, I’m not disagreeing. Just trying to explain the way I sort things out in my head.

jcbroe.4329:

Just a nitpicky thing, sorry lol. You’re not wrong, I’m not disagreeing. Just trying to explain the way I sort things out in my head.

No need to explain, it’s a fair criticism. It’s been so long since I played my warrior I didn’t remember that. And yeah, that’s the way I try to sort things in my head too. Weapons and weapon skills vs. other weapons and weapon skills. Traits vs. traits.

Just checked the wiki and the regular warrior longbow skills are 1000 range, while the F1 skill is 1200 range.

Nilgoow.1037:

Bambula.3649:

Prysin the ranger scalles better with crit dmg than with power. We are not like the warrior that needs tons of power
Our weapons scalling is to bad so crit dmg works much better

This doesn’t make any sense logically and is mathematically incorrect.

I want to comment on this but I can’t tell if the Bamb is talking about Precision & crit frequency …. or the Modifying of 150% crit base. This is an area I see a LOT of generalities spoken by rangers on a topic that I genuinely feel hasn’t been 100% scientifically proven yet

Solandri.9640:

Except warrior isn’t limited to 900+ range to maintain damage, isn’t rooted in place for 3 sec to get off his highest DPS skill, and with rifle doesn’t even have to do anything except point at the target.

Counting F1 or not? If so, then warr needs to stay rooted :P And then ofc we should add pets.

Speaking about traits, I think (only think, coz I’m too lazy to login now to check) ranger has more traits that work with ranged weapons – including all “+X% dmg when Y”.

jcbroe.4329:

Terkov.4138:

I just thought… why to compare ranged and melee dps? As melee is (nearly) always better, ranged is used only in places where its advantages make up for less dps.
So maybe we should look how are ranger LB, SB and axe compared to other classes ranged weapons? I belive we are in decent place there, giving the “unpararelled archers” part some meaning.

I actually believe ranger longbow is the strongest single target DPS at 1200 range, and shortbow may have the fastest time to kill out of any ranged weapon in the game, except maybe ele scepter.

Not sure on the second part, but I’m certain that if the longbow isn’t #1, then it’s #2.

It’s ele staff, then guardan scepter, then engineer grenades. Ranger LB is so far down on the list I don’t even really care to quantify it.

Care to post some exact numbers? I didn’t do proper tests, but quick play with golems looked promising for LB.

Guang when was the last time you quantified longbow?

Zanzer.6450:

Just because I already had the auto-attack numbers:

Warrior Axe – Chop (Combo) – 2,079.056 DPS
Thief Dagger – Strike (Combo) – 2,469.400 DPS

Guess I will check into the pet’s DPS to get the total output of a Ranger.

well… thief have double dps as us and thats a medium armor class as us. i think its a little rude. i start to focus on the leveling of my warrior.

I just had a brain fart… if warriors axe is 2k dps and rangers LB 1,6k dps (yes, comparing melee to ranged!), that leaves 400 dps difference. 400 is 20% of 1,6k. Our pet is easily 20% of our dmg.
You see what I see? If those numbers are correct, it’d mean ranger with LB and pet isn’t any worse in dps than warrior spamming axe. Ofc, pet dying, keeping distance etc are different topic.

Is it me missing sth, or?

Terkov.4138:

I just had a brain fart… if warriors axe is 2k dps and rangers LB 1,6k dps (yes, comparing melee to ranged!), that leaves 400 dps difference. 400 is 20% of 1,6k. Our pet is easily 20% of our dmg.
You see what I see? If those numbers are correct, it’d mean ranger with LB and pet isn’t any worse in dps than warrior spamming axe. Ofc, pet dying, keeping distance etc are different topic.

Is it me missing sth, or?

You’re not getting might and fury from the rest of the group sitting out at 1200 range. And warriors get better damage-boosting traits, it’s not just the base damage of the weapon.

I used LB just as example. It apply as well to sword, which has even better dps, blancing trait bonuses.

My point is, against all the “melee is stronger coz reasons” ranger could do very respectable dps from range, comparable even to warriors melee. I don’t say it’s better or even equal, but still far from what ppl try to make us belive on this forum.

And not 1200, but 1000 range for max dmg :p