Ranger WvW builds

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Posted by: garythesnail.8475

garythesnail.8475

Hey guys!
I leved a Ranger to 80 and would love to try some WvW with him.
Could you guys suggest a few good builds for small scale roaming? I’m kind of new to gw2 so I’m having trouble coming up with a good one.
Thanks a lot

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Posted by: Taverius.8645

Taverius.8645

0/0/30/30/10 and 0/0/30/10/30 seems to be the most popular – ‘Bunker Master’ builds focused on defence and permanent boon uptime – but there’s a few others too.

Look around the forum, there’s several recent threads with builds and vids.

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Posted by: Tribio.8531

Tribio.8531

I myself run full zerker still with Longbow/Shortbow. Mainly used for capping camps and sentries and the occasional PvP experience..

Vid explaining:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRFszeYiXWg

Have to add though, that I’m theorycrafting with a less zerky, but more knighty approach: dropping shortbow and taking greatsword instead; but atm: still full zerker!

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Posted by: GOSU.9574

GOSU.9574

Just gonna say what build works depends on your servers tier, IMO. I watch builds manage to win against bad players all the time. On my server I face off against better players often and some builds just don’t cut it, against archtypes others swear they have no issues with. I may not be the most skilled player (and I am assuredly not) but I can gauge the competition I face and it’s of medium to high quality.

The reason I say this is what builds will work for you are based on the YMMV (Your Miles May Vary) model.

Hey dude you are walking into a wall.

smack..Wut?…smack…smack…

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Posted by: Fluffball.8307

Fluffball.8307

I’d use PvP builds as a starting point, as that’s quite close to what roaming is. You need to be mobile and have several survival tricks up your sleeve.

Unlike PvP, WvW does offer a viable berserker option due to the significantly better equipment and consumables. You hit so hard that you can kill almost anything before it kills you, surviving mostly via CC and evades. You should be very comfortable with ranger if you want to go that route, though, as you live or die in a matter of seconds. It’s the most fun I have in GW2 though.

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Posted by: Soilder.3607

Soilder.3607

I’d use PvP builds as a starting point, as that’s quite close to what roaming is. You need to be mobile and have several survival tricks up your sleeve.

Unlike PvP, WvW does offer a viable berserker option due to the significantly better equipment and consumables. You hit so hard that you can kill almost anything before it kills you, surviving mostly via CC and evades. You should be very comfortable with ranger if you want to go that route, though, as you live or die in a matter of seconds. It’s the most fun I have in GW2 though.

Eh, PvP is a good place to make and test builds but only if you know what you’re doing. For example, Trap and Spirit Ranger builds work extremely well in sPvP but they’re not nearly as good in WvW. Both lack mobility, traps have a deploy range of 600, not nearly enough to be useful in zerg fights, and spirits will get pummeled by zerg AoE.

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Posted by: Belzebu.3912

Belzebu.3912

I’d use PvP builds as a starting point, as that’s quite close to what roaming is. You need to be mobile and have several survival tricks up your sleeve.

not nearly enough to be useful in zerg fights, and spirits will get pummeled by zerg AoE.

I just want to point that, Fluffball is talking about roaming and you about zerg.
For roaming Fluff is right, it is very similar to PvP, zerg/group fights is another story.

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Posted by: Soilder.3607

Soilder.3607

I’d use PvP builds as a starting point, as that’s quite close to what roaming is. You need to be mobile and have several survival tricks up your sleeve.

not nearly enough to be useful in zerg fights, and spirits will get pummeled by zerg AoE.

I just want to point that, Fluffball is talking about roaming and you about zerg.
For roaming Fluff is right, it is very similar to PvP, zerg/group fights is another story.

Ah, well yea those specs are much better for roaming than for zerging, but in the end I definitely think you should atleast take traveler runes for some mobility.

Stormbluff Isle

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Posted by: Sarlack.4096

Sarlack.4096

I haven’t shared a build in a bit but this is how I roll. Mostly Solo, Small man with Guildies. Add 2500 hits and 350 Power for bloodlust/stacks as I’m Rank 343

http://tinyurl.com/purlgtx

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Posted by: Jamoke.1523

Jamoke.1523

Don’t play a ranger in Wvw.
1. You’re the first target in our group.
2. You have little to none escape skills.
3. You can either play a bunker build and kill NO ONE, or Play a zerker build and die in 1 shot.
4. Everyone else knows rangers suck and will come after you immediately/
5. Your pet ain’t gonna do anything except run around in circles and disobey commanders.
6. Anyone who says otherwise obvisouly don’t play wvw too often on a ranger.

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Posted by: Fluffball.8307

Fluffball.8307

#2, Tricare.2946 posted this beautiful video recently of a ranger escaping. Fast forward 3:54 to the end. Most people will recognize rangers have top-tier mobility.

I’m not going to bother even addressing the other points, but #2 should set the tone for how much you know about rangers.

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Posted by: Oak da Vite.9054

Oak da Vite.9054

I love to see smallscale groups doing a focus on me.
It is always a matter of how you play. I have a lot of healing and with invulnerability I have enough time to get away. With sword or gs you have some speed skills. And as a norn I have the best escape skill anyway.
If I am not alone it is the best for my team if the enemy focuses me, as I hardly do any damage. Meanwhile I can give buffs to the others in my grop and they can focus the enemy down while I give healing and condi-remove when needed.

Da Vite – Miller’s Sound
Last Phoenix [Nix]

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Posted by: Jamoke.1523

Jamoke.1523

This is a repley back to Fluffy…just because you can kill uplevels and noobs doesn’t make you good. I’d like to see your Ranger run away from a thief who actually knows what he’s doing.

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Posted by: Sarlack.4096

Sarlack.4096

This is a repley back to Fluffy…just because you can kill uplevels and noobs doesn’t make you good. I’d like to see your Ranger run away from a thief who actually knows what he’s doing.

Just Curiosity…

Does Jamoke = Jumoke from DAoC?

FYI I love fighting thieves on my Ranger…ironic you chose a class that has a get out of jail free card as your example…

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Posted by: Fluffball.8307

Fluffball.8307

This is a repley back to Fluffy…just because you can kill uplevels and noobs doesn’t make you good. I’d like to see your Ranger run away from a thief who actually knows what he’s doing.

I didn’t watch any of that video other than the escape the I gave you a specific time for. You said rangers have no escape options which is blatantly wrong. If you think that about rangers, especially since it’s common knowledge rangers are extremely mobile and evasive, everything else you think about rangers is also blatantly wrong.

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Posted by: Expiatus.4210

Expiatus.4210

Because I’m feeling ornery. Do play a ranger in WvW!

1. You’re the first target in our group.
2. You have little to none escape skills.
3. You can either play a bunker build and kill NO ONE, or Play a zerker build and die in 1 shot.
4. Everyone else knows rangers suck and will come after you immediately
5. Your pet ain’t gonna do anything except run around in circles and disobey commanders.
6. Anyone who says otherwise obviously don’t play wvw too often on a ranger.

1-Any group that runs through another group to just get the ranger is lacking in mental capacity.
2-Sword #2, Sword #3, even Sword #1 if you are awesome. GS #2, SB, #3, LB #3 and 4. Lighting Reflexes, Muddy Terrain, Hide in Plain Sight, Shared Anguish.
3-I play both. I kill with conditions and pet as a bunker and I stay alive for long periods of time as a zerk (see answer to number #2).
4-I know they don’t suck. Again, who sacrifices formation to kill one person/class?
5-Except for pet roots, knockdowns, cripples, chills, buffs to ranger and aoe effects.
6-I leveled my ranger to 80 in WvW on Anvil Rock

Anvil Rock – Out manned, out gunned and no repair costs, so Leeroy up and dive in.
See you in Tyria.

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Posted by: Dead Muppet.9718

Dead Muppet.9718

Because I’m feeling ornery. Do play a ranger in WvW!

1. You’re the first target in our group.
2. You have little to none escape skills.
3. You can either play a bunker build and kill NO ONE, or Play a zerker build and die in 1 shot.
4. Everyone else knows rangers suck and will come after you immediately
5. Your pet ain’t gonna do anything except run around in circles and disobey commanders.
6. Anyone who says otherwise obviously don’t play wvw too often on a ranger.

1-Any group that runs through another group to just get the ranger is lacking in mental capacity.
2-Sword #2, Sword #3, even Sword #1 if you are awesome. GS #2, SB, #3, LB #3 and 4. Lighting Reflexes, Muddy Terrain, Hide in Plain Sight, Shared Anguish.
3-I play both. I kill with conditions and pet as a bunker and I stay alive for long periods of time as a zerk (see answer to number #2).
4-I know they don’t suck. Again, who sacrifices formation to kill one person/class?
5-Except for pet roots, knockdowns, cripples, chills, buffs to ranger and aoe effects.
6-I leveled my ranger to 80 in WvW on Anvil Rock

  1. i think most rangers play this stupid build because we are basically forced 30 points into wilderness survival for empathic bond. Otherwise in this current condi meta you would be eaten alive.

Not my cup of tea and would hope there would be more options then this. Feel Free to post any that dont involve 30 into wilderness survival.

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Posted by: Victory.2879

Victory.2879

Depends on how good your positional awareness is when running with a zerg, but you can run traveller runes on zerk armor, and then grab some pvt rings etc and do some decent damage on LB/SB using 30/30/0/10/0.make sure you have a variety of foods – toughness bows help, aoe fire on crit on one weap, other prec. racial skill that gives you crit and might, qz- swopping utilities quite a bit too.

You will die to any thief that you dont see coming, but will wipe any thief that you get the drop on with a qz’d LB 2.

It’s not for the faint hearted but it’s quite good fun especially when your defending a lot.

Pets- tend to take one tanky one for camp capping (less than 30 seconds to kill all NPCs, a lot faster if u crit a lot and bunch them) and the regen one, sometimes take a couple of healing power trinkets. in zerg fights take a ranged pet and the regen one, and keep the regen one on dont attack so YOU get the benefit not whoever happens to be near your target 1500 range away…

Many rangers will now tell you just how bad this build is- and yes, there are much ‘better’ builds out there, this just happens to be the one I play some of the time – as I like dodging the melee train and wiping out the back line from as far away as possible, without being in their face and worrying about where to escape to.

Victory, Beings Lost On Borderlands (BLOB), SFR & Gandara (inactive)

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Posted by: Bredin.5368

Bredin.5368

This is a repley back to Fluffy…just because you can kill uplevels and noobs doesn’t make you good. I’d like to see your Ranger run away from a thief who actually knows what he’s doing.

I’m just curious…why would a ranger run away from a thief???

OP: I play this build in WvW and have had very good success solo roaming and small group roaming. You can switch a few utilities and provide decent zerg support without being a rally bot.

Build: Evasion Tank

(edited by Bredin.5368)

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Posted by: Tobias Trueflight.8350

Tobias Trueflight.8350

  1. i think most rangers play this stupid build because we are basically forced 30 points into wilderness survival for empathic bond. Otherwise in this current condi meta you would be eaten alive.

Not my cup of tea and would hope there would be more options then this. Feel Free to post any that dont involve 30 into wilderness survival.

You could just put on a Signet of Renewal and drop a condition every 10 seconds? Or use it if you get a lot stacked on you then switch your pet out to clean it up? I don’t actually use Empathic Bond, though I’m starting to think “Hide in Plain Sight” might be worth resetting my traits.

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Posted by: GOSU.9574

GOSU.9574

Don’t play a ranger in Wvw.
1. You’re the first target in our group.
2. You have little to none escape skills.
3. You can either play a bunker build and kill NO ONE, or Play a zerker build and die in 1 shot.
4. Everyone else knows rangers suck and will come after you immediately/
5. Your pet ain’t gonna do anything except run around in circles and disobey commanders.
6. Anyone who says otherwise obvisouly don’t play wvw too often on a ranger.

Stick to playing on a low tier server against bads and build up this sort of view.

Killed plenty of “I AM THE PWN” warriors and guardians on my ranger in wvw, on a tier 1 server. I would tell you to “Bring it” but this game has lost my interest across all modes. I return to the forums for the LOLs like your post brings me.

Hey dude you are walking into a wall.

smack..Wut?…smack…smack…

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Posted by: awge.3852

awge.3852

Ranger does extremetly well in WvW when you apply yourself the right way. I have a few builds that I enjoy but it all depends on the situation. First of all, you must remember that to play in any type of wvw scenario, you must trait for 30 in wilderness survival, bark skin up, that’s an absolute must. From there on, it’s your choice:

1. Skirmisher ranger? Either high power or high condition damage will be your friends. Focusing on taking camps, killing yaks, killing players and catching small group combat, maybe 1v1 combat here and there, roaming is pretty decent.
– Beast Master: 10/0/30/0/30, or 0/0/30/10/30, or 20/0/25/0/20 are doable. It all depends on how you apply yourself.
– Pure bunker: 0/0/30/30/10, I would advise to go high condition damage here.

2. Zerg ranger? Power power power, long bow, healing spring, pets that grant you support and will help keep you alive. I haven’t explored using spirit builds, but in zerg fight it might not come in handy. 30/0/30/0/10 is a popular build here.

That’s the absolute basics of a WvW ranger, the rest will come from your own. Rangers are renown for being very difficult to master, at least to the point where you are actually contributing in WvW, rising over the seas of all the other rangers who actually contribute as part of a group. It’s important for you to find your place and where you can contribute the best. Don’t listen to those who says don’t play ranger in wvw, until you yourself realize if it’s worthwhile due to your own play style. After all it’s the player that makes the ranger, not the other way around.

Mon Fils — Favorable Winds [Wind] — Blackgate
Ranger’s guide to PvP/WvW: http://tinyurl.com/oht3e9z

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Posted by: Kilger.5490

Kilger.5490

1. Take a build that has all the stuff you need to have whatever fun, or whatever you call winning, in wvw, whether it be movement, survival, dps, or whatever.
2. Then take it to spvp and try to do well with it.
3. Tweak it as much as you need to fight well there while keeping the core essentials intact.

Thats my recipe :p

Kilger – Human Ranger
alts: Fangyre (Necro), Hardrawk (Ele);
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Posted by: DeadlySynz.3471

DeadlySynz.3471

Don’t play a ranger in Wvw.
1. You’re the first target in our group.
2. You have little to none escape skills.
3. You can either play a bunker build and kill NO ONE, or Play a zerker build and die in 1 shot.
4. Everyone else knows rangers suck and will come after you immediately/
5. Your pet ain’t gonna do anything except run around in circles and disobey commanders.
6. Anyone who says otherwise obvisouly don’t play wvw too often on a ranger.

I’d reiterate on this, I do happen to play a full zerker ranger in WvW, who is successful in both small and large scale fights. Granted, it’s very dicey taking them into small scale fights, so the positional awareness is key, as well as, knowing exactly when to use what little escape options you have.

I’ve played against nearly all servers and currently reside in Gold League. I rarely die to any thief (or mesmer) in any small scale or zerg fight.

You are right though pets are practically useless and we do die fairly quick, so the zerker build isn’t for those who don’t have good perception of what’s going on.

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Posted by: Tribio.8531

Tribio.8531

Jamoke, you certain you have played your ranger enough already?

Don’t play a ranger in Wvw.
1. You’re the first target in our group.

Bad group, if you ‘d take out the ranger first, ignoring the condi-necro’s and such..

2. You have little to none escape skills.

We have the most natural evades in weapon skills.. Greatsword#3 and I’m way out of your reach..

3. You can either play a bunker build and kill NO ONE, or Play a zerker build and die in 1 shot.

I still run zerker from time to time, and as a ranger, with my natural evades, it works nicely.. Although I’m now running Knight armor with Berserker trinkets, since I needed some more thoughness for guild runs..

4. Everyone else knows rangers suck and will come after you immediately/

quotation needed

5. Your pet ain’t gonna do anything except run around in circles and disobey commanders.

Use your petskills: Heel when needed, switch when needed, F2 when needed..

6. Anyone who says otherwise obvisouly don’t play wvw too often on a ranger.

I say otherwise!! Oh, I have 2000 hours logged on my ranger in WvW..

The Hatreidis family: Freya / Nina / Demonica / Athena / Faith / Arya / Angie / Sansa
Commander – Jam Death [Jd]
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Posted by: psizone.8437

psizone.8437

Hey guys!
I leved a Ranger to 80 and would love to try some WvW with him.
Could you guys suggest a few good builds for small scale roaming? I’m kind of new to gw2 so I’m having trouble coming up with a good one.
Thanks a lot

I’m slightly late to the topic but you should look into a BM bunker build (look up xsorus on youtube or in the forums here) it works fine in a zerg, you have plenty of evades, water field, fire field for might, axe 1 attack hits multiple enemies, plenty of health regen.

It’s stupidly easy to solo camps and entirely possible to solo towers (I’ve taken an undefended keep with an uplevelled warrior friend so with skill it might be possible to solo those, too)

With ram mastery and your health regen, it’ll take multiple enemies and/or multiple ACs to kill you. You’ll be able to shrug off single AC fire.

In a 1v1 fight, I realistically win 7 or 8/10 of my fights. I only really have issues with good necromancers or great condi-mesmers. (they are few and far between but they are tough) and if you are outnumbered, you can still win if the opponents are of lower skill level than you or they mess up.

And as you can see from some of the comments above, a lot of people think rangers are bad in WvW and will underestimate you during a fight, use that to your advantage and you’ll have a lot of fun fighting.

Hope you enjoy playing a ranger!

Brotherhood of Blub [blub]

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Posted by: Paz Shadow.9715

Paz Shadow.9715

One of the more popular ranger builds currently being utilized is rr/w, or “reroll warrior”.
Kidding
In all seriousness, I enjoy zerker build gs/lb, having 1500 range on lb gives you the ability to go a bit more squishy and the gs is an amazing mobility/defense weapon. Use signet of beastmaster for more defense and you have a strong build if played well.

Green Eye of Grenth | PR Officer | JQ

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Posted by: Dead Muppet.9718

Dead Muppet.9718

Don’t play a ranger in Wvw.
1. You’re the first target in our group.
2. You have little to none escape skills.
3. You can either play a bunker build and kill NO ONE, or Play a zerker build and die in 1 shot.
4. Everyone else knows rangers suck and will come after you immediately/
5. Your pet ain’t gonna do anything except run around in circles and disobey commanders.
6. Anyone who says otherwise obvisouly don’t play wvw too often on a ranger.

I’d reiterate on this, I do happen to play a full zerker ranger in WvW, who is successful in both small and large scale fights. Granted, it’s very dicey taking them into small scale fights, so the positional awareness is key, as well as, knowing exactly when to use what little escape options you have.

I’ve played against nearly all servers and currently reside in Gold League. I rarely die to any thief (or mesmer) in any small scale or zerg fight.

You are right though pets are practically useless and we do die fairly quick, so the zerker build isn’t for those who don’t have good perception of what’s going on.

You must play vs some horrible thieves. Full zerker just about any thief that focuses you will finish you pretty quickly. I would LOVE to see a zerker ranger recover from a thief opening and win consistantly…

I love this class but dont see this happening.

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Posted by: geist.3980

geist.3980

I only play ranger in wvw, and it is difficult, but you can make your way around if you avoid the roamers and stick to objectives. I recommend PTV armor, travelers runes, and PC weapons and jewelry.

Attachments:

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Posted by: Bambula.3649

Bambula.3649

I only play ranger in wvw, and it is difficult, but you can make your way around if you avoid the roamers and stick to objectives. I recommend PTV armor, travelers runes, and PC weapons and jewelry.

Dont know what you try to tell us with thes screen.
You can zerg or have much time Oo

And pvt ranger is useless, you deal zero dmg even if you tanky..nice
0 Support
0 dmg
tanky but got no reg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i268/Itzlzha/applause.gif

Orga for [WUMS]

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Posted by: Noobie.1073

Noobie.1073

Stick to playing on a low tier server against bads and build up this sort of view.

Killed plenty of “I AM THE PWN” warriors and guardians on my ranger in wvw, on a tier 1 server. I would tell you to “Bring it” but this game has lost my interest across all modes. I return to the forums for the LOLs like your post brings me.

Though I don’t agree with Jamoke, are you implying that all rangers from a low server are bad?

Good players are good regardless of what tier they play on.

I Cha Cha I – Mediocre Ranger at best
Mao Xiong – Worst Warrior GW2

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Posted by: Vaxx.3178

Vaxx.3178

Stick to playing on a low tier server against bads and build up this sort of view.

Killed plenty of “I AM THE PWN” warriors and guardians on my ranger in wvw, on a tier 1 server. I would tell you to “Bring it” but this game has lost my interest across all modes. I return to the forums for the LOLs like your post brings me.

Though I don’t agree with Jamoke, are you implying that all rangers from a low server are bad?

Good players are good regardless of what tier they play on.

——→Toua Cha – Mediocre Ranger at best<——-
Mao Xiong – Walking lootbag Warrior
Ceg Taub – Trickless Mesmer

Bad, good, mediocre, who cares.

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Posted by: geist.3980

geist.3980

I only play ranger in wvw, and it is difficult, but you can make your way around if you avoid the roamers and stick to objectives. I recommend PTV armor, travelers runes, and PC weapons and jewelry.

Dont know what you try to tell us with thes screen.
You can zerg or have much time Oo

And pvt ranger is useless, you deal zero dmg even if you tanky..nice
0 Support
0 dmg
tanky but got no reg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i268/Itzlzha/applause.gif

the pic was to try an encourage a fellow ranger that he could succeed in wvw with some effort. typically i zerg, i solo camps. i solo other players. i defend structures, and i laugh at people who don’t understand any other build besides the zerkordie meta. honestly, try to be more creative when trolling players helping players than posting someone elses gif they created.

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Posted by: Darkie.3582

Darkie.3582

This is a repley back to Fluffy…just because you can kill uplevels and noobs doesn’t make you good. I’d like to see your Ranger run away from a thief who actually knows what he’s doing.

I’m just curious…why would a ranger run away from a thief???

OP: I play this build in WvW and have had very good success solo roaming and small group roaming. You can switch a few utilities and provide decent zerg support without being a rally bot.

Build: Evasion Tank

Hey, thinking of trying out this build and was wondering what kind of armor/ rune combos do you use, also wep stats/runes thanks

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Posted by: Sarlack.4096

Sarlack.4096

Rangers WvW roam fine if you have at least some beefyness, anyone who tells you otherwise has:

A) Not played a Ranger to its strengths

or

B) Failed in their effort and has determined if they can’t do it effectively therefore nobody can

Our only “major” issue is lack of diversity/synergy but that doesn’t mean we are weak just limited.

Find a style that works for you, practice with it, tweak it and go have fun. The more you ask for feedback here the less likely you will want to play the class…..so much negativity in the Ranger community is sickening….

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Posted by: Amins.3710

Amins.3710

Here are a couple builds that I use in WvW. Feel free to check out the video’s and the builds in the description (#2 & #3 have the builds in them).

My favorite is my shortbow / sword+horn.

Amins – Guardian
Gameplay Video’s & Forum Post

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Posted by: Arrys.7145

Arrys.7145

This is a repley back to Fluffy…just because you can kill uplevels and noobs doesn’t make you good. I’d like to see your Ranger run away from a thief who actually knows what he’s doing.

I’m just curious…why would a ranger run away from a thief???

OP: I play this build in WvW and have had very good success solo roaming and small group roaming. You can switch a few utilities and provide decent zerg support without being a rally bot.

Build: Evasion Tank

Hey, thinking of trying out this build and was wondering what kind of armor/ rune combos do you use, also wep stats/runes thanks

It’s in their link. Knight armor weapons and a mix of zerk/knight jewelery – click the helm…..

And since you necro’d a 2 month old thread. I’ld add 10,30,30,0,0 LB – SW/torch trap build for small group roaming in carrion with some rampager elements worked in. Quite fun in EOTM. Pinch points and long falls. Not really a 1v1 build but great area denial small group fighter. As for LB with trap – you must stay alive to drop the next round. Stealth KB aoe snare take some bleed on crit.

Arrys Shaikin
OoS
A whittling ranger becomes viable by forcing his opponent to whittle

Ranger WvW builds

in Ranger

Posted by: roamzero.9486

roamzero.9486

Unlike other professions, a flexible all-round WvW build doesn’t really exist. You either build for zerging or for small scale roaming, and in neither case is Ranger particularly amazing.

For zerging the best luck Ive had is going double bows with piercing arrows and fire sigils or regen-bunker greatsword build. For small scale the best luck Ive had is with either hybrid trapping or apothecary condi bunkering.

Ranger WvW builds

in Ranger

Posted by: snow.8097

snow.8097

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Ranger-Builds-for-WvW/first#post3647351

prysin collected some good builds for wvw ranger. i think they will help u

Safi/Clio Del Ray |Ranger, Elonas Reach,
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Suggestions-Gemstore-Items/page/31#post4533037
the skrittfinisher was my idea!