Guild Wars 2

Robert Hrouda.1327:

I’m still here and lurking about (as is the balance team), gathering information to bring to meetings. For the first couple days after a patch, people are still figuring things out and getting used to changes. We didn’t kill rangers (I was doing some PvP last night, and have done a couple dungeon runs). It’s just that there’s a predictable reaction to when we change something, that we have killed classes and destroyed builds, and there’s nothing I can say or do to help in those situations. Sometimes you have to sit back and let the community sort themselves out… people depend on something (quickness) and then when that gets changed, there’s an initial period of confusion, but its always followed by “look what I can do” because people are being forced to try new things, and they do a bit of experimenting they may have not have done before.
Sure things need more attention. LB, pets, spirits.. they all need some love on our part, and they will get it. I may not be the best PvP’r out there, but I was first/second place on my team in the three games I played as a ranger (deer rank!), and I was still effective against other classes. the new quickness speed will take some getting used to, but it by no means destroyed rangers.

But me going into every thread about someone claiming bad things and giving expressions isn’t going to help (there are also a lot of those threads that I just wouldn’t be able to keep track of due to time constraints). So I sit back, watch, take notes for meetings, and try to find a good time to post to help guide the conversation.

Hey man, I think that part of the problem at the moment is that there is a big disconnect between the developers and the community. Many of the players feel Rangers should be heading in “X” Direction, while the developers feel Rangers should be heading in “Y” Direction.

And I am not saying that’s a bad thing. I am not saying Y is any worse than X or Visa Versa. Both could be great in the end. Just feels like we are not on the same page even remotely with the Devs.

Kreaven.3172:

Hey man, I think that part of the problem at the moment is that there is a big disconnect between the developers and the community. Many of the players feel Rangers should be heading in “X” Direction, while the developers feel Rangers should be heading in “Y” Direction.

And I am not saying that’s a bad thing. I am not saying Y is any worse than X or Visa Versa. Both could be great in the end. Just feels like we are not on the same page even remotely with the Devs.

That’s because Devs are interested in overall class balance, while Ranger players, as a whole, is interested in improvement of their own class.

In addition to that, Devs have their own vision of the class, while many others have their own vision/expectations (For example, those who view the class as a "range"r. Obviously not what the devs had in mind given our melee options). They don’t necessarily agree.

However, the Devs, both Jon and Robert, acknowledge the problems the problems this class has. That’s good enough for me, really.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Sure things need more attention. LB, pets, spirits.. they all need some love on our part, and they will get it.

I hope you realize this was pretty much promised about 5 months ago without seeing big improvements patch after patch after patch.
So i can imagine people are very disappointed when they see no changes in the areas that need attention and only respond to the negative impact on changes that brings our class even further down.
If this update would have had fixes in the oh so needed areas (LB, pets, etc) you wouldn’t have seen soo many complaints about destroying a class.

It’s good to see you around here Robert!

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Ursan is essentially correct. Players will always want their class to be stronger – but devs have to temper that with overall balance on many different levels. Sometimes a simple number fix will suffice, but sometimes there is more to it.

We see the problems and read the threads. We all play the game and experience it like you all do. Prioritizing what gets fixed, when, and how isn’t a simple task, but we are making headway.

Oh I know its not a simple task and I do not in anyway shape or form Envy you. I do however hold great respect for being able to put up with the angry mobs. Heck I have been in them before.

All anger towards Robert Hrouda was completely misguided anyway. If however JonPeters showed up, I’d be really impressed.

Robert would you (and the balancers) be interested in a thread where people suggest specific balance changes in patch format?

We could adress traits and try to give you some numbers on what would help which trait when you find time to fix them.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

I’m still here and lurking about (as is the balance team), gathering information to bring to meetings. For the first couple days after a patch, people are still figuring things out and getting used to changes. We didn’t kill rangers (I was doing some PvP last night, and have done a couple dungeon runs). It’s just that there’s a predictable reaction to when we change something, that we have killed classes and destroyed builds, and there’s nothing I can say or do to help in those situations. Sometimes you have to sit back and let the community sort themselves out… people depend on something (quickness) and then when that gets changed, there’s an initial period of confusion, but its always followed by “look what I can do” because people are being forced to try new things, and they do a bit of experimenting they may have not have done before.
Sure things need more attention. LB, pets, spirits.. they all need some love on our part, and they will get it. I may not be the best PvP’r out there, but I was first/second place on my team in the three games I played as a ranger (deer rank!), and I was still effective against other classes. the new quickness speed will take some getting used to, but it by no means destroyed rangers.

But me going into every thread about someone claiming bad things and giving expressions isn’t going to help (there are also a lot of those threads that I just wouldn’t be able to keep track of due to time constraints). So I sit back, watch, take notes for meetings, and try to find a good time to post to help guide the conversation.

I think the problem is, ranger quickness was pretty well balanced before, maybe due to the fact that its was sort of built into the class style. But now, quickness FEELS meh, so yeah, somehow you guys have to go in there and make it actually feel good again, or perhaps replace it. Ranger was the class that actually had quickness integrated into into itself, it feels like the animation times, and even pet animations were based partially with the idea that you can speed them up. Since BWE quickness has gotten adjusted downward multiple times, but ranger hasnt really been balanced much based on that.

Overall, going away from the bursty style of play at this point is also weird, because on the other side, The bigger issue in PVP is the prevalence and power of bunkers, and PVE wise, one of the big issues is the large hp pools and fights that feel very slow. So right now, reducing burst, just feels weird.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

I’m still here and lurking about (as is the balance team), gathering information to bring to meetings. For the first couple days after a patch, people are still figuring things out and getting used to changes. We didn’t kill rangers (I was doing some PvP last night, and have done a couple dungeon runs). It’s just that there’s a predictable reaction to when we change something, that we have killed classes and destroyed builds, and there’s nothing I can say or do to help in those situations. Sometimes you have to sit back and let the community sort themselves out… people depend on something (quickness) and then when that gets changed, there’s an initial period of confusion, but its always followed by “look what I can do” because people are being forced to try new things, and they do a bit of experimenting they may have not have done before.
Sure things need more attention. LB, pets, spirits.. they all need some love on our part, and they will get it. I may not be the best PvP’r out there, but I was first/second place on my team in the three games I played as a ranger (deer rank!), and I was still effective against other classes. the new quickness speed will take some getting used to, but it by no means destroyed rangers.

But me going into every thread about someone claiming bad things and giving expressions isn’t going to help (there are also a lot of those threads that I just wouldn’t be able to keep track of due to time constraints). So I sit back, watch, take notes for meetings, and try to find a good time to post to help guide the conversation.

PVP and WvsW are different so please make some test on WvsW not just on PvP.
FYI: accesories in pvp are different to WvsW + the stats of weapon.
Thanks.
Please make some test in WvsW

I appreciate the comments that all traits and skills need to be considered but we were told by JPeters in November that the ranger profession was in the most need of improvement and that Pet AI, trait lines without enough viable choices, and skills that were too specialized to compliment weapon builds. Four months later our Pet AI (slightly better), trait lines, and skills are still in the same boat. Robert, this is where the frustration comes from. We are told the ranger class needs the most help but yet none of the topics mentioned have been adjusted very much if at all. I’m still playing my ranger b/c it is my favorite class but it requires a heck of a lot more concentration and strategy to play then my warrior or mesmer.

Thanks again for the communication as it is great for us to know you guys are listening.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

I’m still here and lurking about (as is the balance team)

Would really, really appreciate some conversation from devs in the other class forums too…

TogoChubb.3984:

I appreciate the comments that all traits and skills need to be considered but we were told by JPeters in November that the ranger profession was in the most need of improvement and that Pet AI, trait lines without enough viable choices, and skills that were too specialized to compliment weapon builds. Four months later our Pet AI (slightly better), trait lines, and skills are still in the same boat. Robert, this is where the frustration comes from. We are told the ranger class needs the most help but yet none of the topics mentioned have been adjusted very much if at all. I’m still playing my ranger b/c it is my favorite class but it requires a heck of a lot more concentration and strategy to play then my warrior or mesmer.

Thanks again for the communication as it is great for us to know you guys are listening.

Mesmer are strong compare to warrior.
Just go to WvsW and you will see how strong they are.
And by the way just want to ask. Why the ranger speed reduce when there pet is engage to battle? Even I have the buffs of speed booster + the horn buffs its like my pet is pulling me even w/out cripple. Instead of running away we force to fight because of the reduction of speed when the pet is in battle.

Honestly at this point I think we deserve a clear timeline of when we can expect some of these changes that have been flagged for months and months as Rangers problem areas. I know that breaks your protocol at some level, but your fans are unhappy and we need to hear something.

When can we expect longbow improvements. When can we expect spirits to actually be something worth using. When can we expect pets to hit moving targets in WvW and survive long enough to be an asset.

Necros have gotten a lot of attention and have pulled ahead in power. Engineers got huge attention in the last two patches and have pulled ahead in power. Rangers continue to languish and have fallen even further behind the rest of the classes with this latest patch. By all rights, April should be OUR month, but somehow I’m guessing we’ll see a big focus on improving Warriors again because their power has slipped from the absolute strongest, to 2nd tier.

The worst part to me, is that quickness made the class “feel good”. That alone kept many of us playing despite being dead last in power. Now it doesn’t feel good at all. Pet swapping as a mechanic is worthless. Our only good trait line is now hollow without QZ. I’ve fallen back to an incredibly boring all signet build and I just stand there spamming shortbow auto-attack and never activating any signets except my “oh kitten” button on a 90 second cool down. It’s hardly worth weapon swapping to longbow now as it is in a terrible state without quickness . LB feels horribly slow and all our attacks are incredibly easy to avoid.

I’ve tried many weapon sets and specs and none of it feels “fun” now, let alone anywhere near viable.

jan.9745:

TogoChubb.3984:

I appreciate the comments that all traits and skills need to be considered but we were told by JPeters in November that the ranger profession was in the most need of improvement and that Pet AI, trait lines without enough viable choices, and skills that were too specialized to compliment weapon builds. Four months later our Pet AI (slightly better), trait lines, and skills are still in the same boat. Robert, this is where the frustration comes from. We are told the ranger class needs the most help but yet none of the topics mentioned have been adjusted very much if at all. I’m still playing my ranger b/c it is my favorite class but it requires a heck of a lot more concentration and strategy to play then my warrior or mesmer.

Thanks again for the communication as it is great for us to know you guys are listening.

Mesmer are strong compare to warrior.
Just go to WvsW and you will see how strong they are.
And by the way just want to ask. Why the ranger speed reduce when there pet is engage to battle? Even I have the buffs of speed booster + the horn buffs its like my pet is pulling me even w/out cripple. Instead of running away we force to fight because of the reduction of speed when the pet is in battle.

Agreed…Watching a confusion mesmer wipe a warrior is comical. A condition Mesmer is a very strong class and extremely hard to beat.

The pet AI has always been trouble for games to get right, but I definately agree that it is extremely hard to escape a fight or run from a zerg in WvW b/c your pet aggros all NPC’s and keeps you in combat speed. In addition thieves love to just pop your pet to keep or put you in combat speed. The best solution you have is to try a GS build…this pains me (b/c I hate being forced to use a certain weapon to be viable) but you are almost forced to use GS these days in WvW. The #4 block skill is amazing and the swoop works well to both enter combat and to escape as well.

I dream… and in that dream my ranger can use aquatic skills and pets everywhere
they are all superior to their above the waves conterparts

The entangle CD need to reduce also. This elite is easy to avoid easy to scape and easy to destroy they should reduce the CD of entangle. And make the duration of bleed damage in just 5 or 4 sec. Because they can just loose the condition damage quickly. 11 sec is to long to put the exact amount damage by the entangle to the enemy.

I have 3 ranger at the moment a condition\trapp spec with sb/sword warhorn
Beast master bunker gs /sword dagger
and a mele hybrid build that i find very entertaining and semi viable.

Most rangers i talk with that is unnhappy with rangers use them as pure range class.
but the short bow and long bow dont synergise any well.
I belive a buff to Long bow must be done rely carfull as it have ok burst, if traited a good knock back and good area dmg,
It needs a buff of some sort to be viable in spvp/tpvp but i cant se any thing that will help without being op.

Inn my oppinion a realy strong Spvp/Tpvp class, and ok in WvW
cant rely comment on PvE as i only did what i needed to get to 80 and got most of my gear from trading gems 4 gold.

I almost only play tornaments these days.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

I’m still here and lurking about (as is the balance team), gathering information to bring to meetings. For the first couple days after a patch, people are still figuring things out and getting used to changes. We didn’t kill rangers (I was doing some PvP last night, and have done a couple dungeon runs). It’s just that there’s a predictable reaction to when we change something, that we have killed classes and destroyed builds, and there’s nothing I can say or do to help in those situations. Sometimes you have to sit back and let the community sort themselves out… people depend on something (quickness) and then when that gets changed, there’s an initial period of confusion, but its always followed by “look what I can do” because people are being forced to try new things, and they do a bit of experimenting they may have not have done before.
Sure things need more attention. LB, pets, spirits.. they all need some love on our part, and they will get it. I may not be the best PvP’r out there, but I was first/second place on my team in the three games I played as a ranger (deer rank!), and I was still effective against other classes. the new quickness speed will take some getting used to, but it by no means destroyed rangers.

But me going into every thread about someone claiming bad things and giving expressions isn’t going to help (there are also a lot of those threads that I just wouldn’t be able to keep track of due to time constraints). So I sit back, watch, take notes for meetings, and try to find a good time to post to help guide the conversation.

That is a valid point, Unless you actually play the Ranger, and know its hogwash.

The only way you can try something new out is if you actually have something else to fall back on.

Powerbuilds that relied on Quickness didn’t use it because it was the most amazing ability ever, They used it because it was basically the ONLY thing they had available.

What do you expect Powerbuilds to use? Sharpening Stones? Traps? Maybe they can pop one more of our 120 Second cooldown signets and invest 30 points into the Powerline so it’ll work on themselves..otherwise have it remain half as effective as every other class with Signets.

Maybe you think Spirits are a good choice, Has your metrics seen an uptick in Spirits being used? I mean afterall..You stated spirits are a problem, so I’m guessing they haven’t.

Problem with that is that was already told to us in November by Jon, which we turned around and saw how that was handled…an increase of 35% to 50% proc chance on an ability with a 10 second ICD…. and a health increase that didn’t really help, Because it was a % increase on a already low health target.

So you have to understand why us Rangers are annoyed…It seems you don’t right now as you view us as “Well they’re just acting silly cause they think their class is destroyed” which we don’t..I don’t think our class is destroyed, Quickness didn’t affect our 2 strongest builds..However it did limit the options on an already limited class, And the developers after 5 months haven’t done squat but made us better Swimmers.

In fact we’ve gotten weaker in the past 5 months…If we’re considered the worse class 5 months ago, And all the changes the Devs have done have ended up making the class weaker..You’re not helping the situation..

I stand corrected ^^

Well I do not want to be my main “to be the best class”
I want the bugs to be fixed and I want to build something I want to play with.
Spirits are – sorry to say that – crap
Longbow is also not really good.. and thats the weapon (okay I feel that way) we should shine with…

Pets – our make and break special feature…. well …. lets say… they really really really really need love – and lots of it…
cause at the moment they really suck also…

and btw… lick wounds still doesnt work every time….
what a bummer…

well I have some other level 80s and I will play them…
but as a protest I will not buy anything in the bltm until the most glaring things are fixed…

thats the only way I can express my feelings toward the “ranger development” in this game…

One problem with rangers is the lack of build diversity created by a number of sub par utility skills. Many signets, a shout or two, and spirits are all a bit lackluster. That is the first place to expect improvements. Second is trying to improve the feel/ pacing on some weapons.

This was posted by Jon in November…

He states in this post the problems with the Ranger class, so lets narrow that down.

1. Lack of Build Diversity created by Subpar utility skills
Has build Diversity increased since then? No…The builds and abilities used in November are pretty much the same. So his number 1 stated problem hasn’t been fixed.

2. Many Signets, a Shout or two, and spirits are all Lackluster.
Many Signets suggest more then 1 signet, the only signet improved since November has been Signet of the Hunt, which received a speed increase along with everyone else. So either he didn’t know the Ranger class at the time and took a guess..Or they think our Signets are perfectly fine right now.

Shouts, They improved 2 shouts since November, Sick’Em which while it got a nice improvement is lackluster because our pets, and also because it BREAKS if you use anything while its up. The other is Guard, which you turned around and Nerfed back to its useless state…So again..Not much of an improvement on this front.

Spirits..I covered that in the last post, The Dev team didn’t do much to really fix that issue….They’re still as useless as ever, and you manage to even gut them on Guardians at the same time..which is rather impressive work I might add. So no real improvements done here.

So as you can see, his first two points in his original post, as left us with a massive failure on the Developers part. But hey..We’re just upset over Quickness being nerfed grin

So lets move to the final point.

Improve the feel and pacing on some weapons..

I’m going to assume when he said this..He actually mean Greatsword and the Underwater weapons… Cause those are the only ones that got an update. I will give him credit for the Greatsword changes, You guys have come a long way in bringing our Greatsword back up to the level is was in beta before you over nerfed it into the ground.

However I hear Longbow might be a problem, and I look forward to checking it out in August to see what you guys have changed in the patch.

guys just remember Robert Hrouda does not balance classes he is not on that same team he is a dungeon designer that plays ranger so if anything he is like our voice in meetings about class balance and he can make suggestions… not to mention he doesnt seem like a bad guy. been talking to the most high strung community in the GW2 that 2 months ago wanted to rip the head off the being they saw with a anet logo above their head. please do not ruin our only communication to the balance team by bashing him for the balance of the game for rangers currently… we all know that the balance team does not get on forums as much as they should. and thank Robert here for willing to talk for the rangers and give suggestions at the balance meetings they have on our behalf.

I feel like quickness was a hamfisted change that has ruined the feel of the game for people that loved it. Why not have made quickness reduce damage done by 25% but retain its 100% speed? Then quickness gets toned down but our arrows could still at least find their mark instead of being softballs we’re lobbing every 2 seconds? We still get to feel awesome, shooting super fast. Quickness was FUN. Rangers have very little in our arsenal that is fun. You might not have outright killed ranger, but you took away the fun parts of playing one.

Also, not that it matters now, but I’d love to know the reasoning behind why shortbow’s crossfire still doesn’t get the stated % speed increase with this boon.

maybe an explanation by the devs as to why quickness was nerfed and how they intend to compensate for the lack of damage would make a lot of rangers on the forum happy until the next update

and as far as the quickness nerf, it hurt pets ALOT more than it hurt the rangers themselfs… just thinking about how many less attacks Mr Wiggles (best name ever to look and see someone downed by Mr Wiggles) will hit now in pvp makes me sad. idk why players are complaining about hitting less look at what ur pet is doing is all im saying
@ Paz Shadow the devs already explained it, quickness made some encounters not very engaging in lamance terms, also led to alot of classes using it as spikes in pvp for example warriors with quickness using 100blades

jan.9745:

I think they should put back the default speed of quickness when you swap a pet.
Or else remove that traits and change it. Like fear your enemy for 3 sec when you swap pet. Or gain 5 sec regeneration when you swap pet or Bleed your enemy when you swap pet. Something like that. Because Gain quickness when you swap pet is now useless.

jan.9745:

I think they should put back the default speed of quickness when you swap a pet.
Or else remove that traits and change it. Like fear your enemy for 3 sec when you swap pet. Or gain 5 sec regeneration when you swap pet or Bleed you enemy when you swap pet. Something like that. Because Gain quickness when you swap pet is now useless.

well yah, its more usless now cause the pet u get wont be able to take advantage of that 2 sec even with a ranged pet, used to be able to get an instant attack with the 100% speed, but now its only lasts 2/4 of the attack animation for pets?

If quickness spiking was OP… what the hell do you call thieves spiking from invis?

Or maybe just for favour because ranger is the worse class since day 1 maybe they can make it like: Gain 2 sec invulnerability when you swap pet
in this case you can counter the thief now. Because thief punish the ranger since day 1

Sansar.1302:

I have 3 ranger at the moment a condition\trapp spec with sb/sword warhorn
Beast master bunker gs /sword dagger
and a mele hybrid build that i find very entertaining and semi viable.

Most rangers i talk with that is unnhappy with rangers use them as pure range class.
but the short bow and long bow dont synergise any well.
I belive a buff Long bow must be done rely carfull as it have ok burst, if traited a good knock back and good area dmg,
It needs a buff of some sort to be viable in spvp/tpvp but i cant se any thing that will help without being op.

Inn my oppinion a realy strong Spvp/Tpvp class, and ok in WvW
cant rely comment on PvE as i only did what i needed to get to 80 and got most of my gear from trading gems 4 gold.

I almost only play tornaments these days.

The longbow has a terrible fire rate with the exception of #2, and max damage is achieved at a distance that projectiles can be sidestepped with ease without quickness to make up for poor fire rate. The #4 skill should be an instant cast shot b/c in WvW it is interrupted almost every time. The longbow almost has no protection b/c it is a slow and laborious at getting shots off and is too prone to interruption.

The short bow is still viable in WvW simply b/c of the quick fire rate and immediate fire of the #5 skill. I still don’t really understand poison as the #2 condition but that skill is useless anyway unless you are at point blank range. The #2 skill should become an AoE bullseye target attack which would help with two things. First of all it would help the condition become more of an asset and secondly would give a defense against invisibility since there is no way to hit a target that has gone into stealth with the SB. In addition unless you have started the #2 skill (which will continue to track people in stealth) on the LB you can’t hit enemies in stealth either. Barrage is way to slow to kill a thief in stealth so please don’t retort with that.

Overall the bows biggest weaknesses are in their defensive standpoints are severely lacking in almost all aspects. They are completely offensive and the LB due to low fire rate, slow projectile speed, and good damage is at a long distance it has a hard time standing on its on as a main weapon of choice. Since the LB without quickness misses more than it hits a moving target is not an option for me anymore so I have completely moved to GS/SB. As stated earlier I hate being forced into a weapon but I can’t see a better weapon for the ranger atm then the GS.

Robert, please read and answer Xsorus’s post. No one can formulate our ideas better – he mentioned everything and quoted Jon Peters, so there must be some respect to his words. It’s been a long while and you sound like “usual situation after the patch – they will get used to it and stop QQing”. Not we won’t. Cause it’s not about the patch – it’s about everything. First of all not fixing what was promised to be fixed an eternity ago.

You also mention pets, spirits, LB. So….will it take one more eternity to fix it before you buff and fix every other class in the game?

We don’t want to be the pew pew 1 shot Gods of PvP. We wan’t the diversity and perfect work and redesign of our skills and mechanics in order to PROPERLY play this class. Don’t you understand?

Nobody says that Rangers are very bad in PvP. They can kill stuff. But it could have been much more fun if they had worked properly.

Thank you, Robert, anyways. I know that you are not the one to blame. The one to blame will not appear on this forums anymore.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

I’m still here and lurking about (as is the balance team), gathering information to bring to meetings. For the first couple days after a patch, people are still figuring things out and getting used to changes. We didn’t kill rangers (I was doing some PvP last night, and have done a couple dungeon runs). It’s just that there’s a predictable reaction to when we change something, that we have killed classes and destroyed builds, and there’s nothing I can say or do to help in those situations. Sometimes you have to sit back and let the community sort themselves out… people depend on something (quickness) and then when that gets changed, there’s an initial period of confusion, but its always followed by “look what I can do” because people are being forced to try new things, and they do a bit of experimenting they may have not have done before.
Sure things need more attention. LB, pets, spirits.. they all need some love on our part, and they will get it. I may not be the best PvP’r out there, but I was first/second place on my team in the three games I played as a ranger (deer rank!), and I was still effective against other classes. the new quickness speed will take some getting used to, but it by no means destroyed rangers.

But me going into every thread about someone claiming bad things and giving expressions isn’t going to help (there are also a lot of those threads that I just wouldn’t be able to keep track of due to time constraints). So I sit back, watch, take notes for meetings, and try to find a good time to post to help guide the conversation.

Also Robert, I’m wondering why you do not have two separate skill systems as it were like in GW1. When you enter into the mists or PvP you are given the “PvP” version of a skill (if the skill varies from the PvE version) .It would be a lot easier to balance around as what works in PvE doesn’t necessarily work in PvP and vice-versa. You also wouldn’t be killing PvE exclusive players by implementing nerfs or changes that are targeted solely at PvP game play.

That is true. I don’t understand it either.

Are we still playing BETA? Lots of change, lots of nerf…
I think they need to hire a GM.
GM for WvsW
GM for PvE
GM for PvP
So that we can tell to the GM what is the Problem instantly in the game.
So that GM can catch all the boot inside the game
So that GM can monitor the game and they are the one will tell to the game designer what they need to change. And to reduce all the comment here in the forum.

I understand the concept of overall balance > individual class, similarly, there is a very vocal minority who do complain and cry about the death of the ranger. Sure, there are people who will defend a class, and rightfully so, especially if it’s a class they ejoy playing.

My issue is that as a Ranger, I now feel pigeonholed. I love my GS, and I love the new buffs to it (would have loved a Blast Finished on Maul, but eh), however the utilities rangers have do not compliment play styles – SoH is characteristically a staple (especially in WvW), so that’s one slot down, I’m now left with;

• Shouts – More or less useless unless you are heavily pet focused, with the possiblility of Protect Me and Search and Rescue (both very niche abilities, and in the case of S&R, a long CD). It is also worth noting the state of pets and their current AI, which, honestly, has been discussed to death. /paragraph here about how ‘static’ pets create a dichotomy between an ‘action’ mmo with dodging and pets who eat AoEs with vehement zeal.
• Signets – Once again, Signet of the Hunt is a staple, however the rest, unless used in conjunction with Signet of the Beastmaster are fairly bland, and usually not worth activating, and do not offer much utility to your group.
• Spirits – As much as I do not want to beat a dead horse, this horse deserves the beating, rightfully so. Spirits are a fantastic idea, it’s a shame they don’t live up to their potential. Internal cooldowns, flimsy spirits that die as soon as an enemy so much as looks at them (all while being out shined, outclassed and outdone by Banners), effects (both passive and active) which scale poorly at 80, all while losing other possible utilities make Spirits, unfortunately, something rangers will overlook, and who could blame them.
• Survival – The sole utility type which I have always found to be a Ranger’s best friend – outshining pretty much all the other utility types. Muddy Terrain, pre-26th QZ, LR and of course, the ultimate of Entangle all provide fantastic utility function and benefit from Wilderness Knowledge. I have always been iffy about Sharpening Stone, however it may have its place.
• Traps – These abilities are probably the only thing worthwhile (currently), picking up on a ranger, however in doing this, you lose out other utility abilities which define the ranger as a “skirmisher”. The other issue I have with traps (aside from the meta it locks you into, is that you are basically required to throw 30 points into Skirmishing in order to maximize the potential of traps, sadly the secondary characteristic of this tree doesn’t seem to synergise well with the concept of traps (especially given as +condition damage or duration would be much, much better).

I, myself have played a GS ranger since BWE1; I’ve adjusted to the changes up until now; I’ve tried plenty of builds, plenty of gear combinations, and despite all that, I am feeling the effects of the quickness nerf.

I do understand why the nerf was implimented, and needed to be done, I just think rangers may not have gotten enough consideration/remuneration for what they’ve lost. QZ was one of the the most flexible, versatile and useful utilities – not only could it help squeeze out a little more damage, but also quickness res allies in dungeons, gather a little quicker when under attack and allow some pets (I’m looking at you Drake), to actually hit things with their F2 abilities. (I will ignore the sPvP ramifications such as quickness stomp because I believe that is a different meta, and there are many skills/effects which differ between pvp and pve. Along those lines, dungeons and PvP should never, ever, ever, ever, ever be used as a ‘testing’ ground for classes, especially considering that open world content is a very, very different kettle of fish).

The gimping of Swiftness, especially with no change being made to Zephyr’s Speed, hurt many rangers who found this a fantastic trait and utility.

I am curious as to what build the Developers play – no offence, it’s easy to say “I played my ranger, and Tyria quaked underneath my power – my enemies absconded as soon as I cast a glance in their direction, I ran dungeons with a group of fellow developers without a hitch”, link your builds, explain your play style, the choices you made, what you believe your ranger brings to any situation. Then let the community – the people loving your game, supporting you and your creation and consuming your product be the judge – let us understand what the kitten you’re thinking.

I loved my Ranger, I loved that I could be a melee ranger, perhaps I wanted it to be too much like a White Lion from WAR – synergy between yourself and your pet, being in the thick of the action with a pet who supports you as much as you support it. However, on the flip side I am now finding much more enjoyment with another class.

jan.9745:

Are we still playing BETA?

Personally I do think we are still in open beta behind the scenes to some degree.

There are so many skills and traits that do not work or are weak or flat out worthless. Also many runes didn’t even give their benefits for months since release. There are also still many class issues, as the latest Engineer updates proved. Also, a ton of skill/trait tooltips are not telling the truth or are simply not providing enough information.

I think we’re looking at another year or two for all the class issues to have been ironed out. But there is certainly still potential.

Personally I think the quickness nerf was a good initial move, but only as a foundation to improve weapon skills in other ways. Which may take a few more months. They may first want to see what happens now that quickness has been nerfed and react to it accordingly. It wouldn’t surprise me to see improvements to the Ranger longbow soon.

wow its crazy to see a dev showing up to talk to you guys about anything. pretty dumb to look a gift horse in the mouth.. go to another forum and count the threads that a dev had any input on… most of the time if there is a red tag on a post it is locking the thread.

zaxon.6819:

wow its crazy to see a dev showing up to talk to you guys about anything. pretty dumb to look a gift horse in the mouth.. go to another forum and count the threads that a dev had any input on… most of the time if there is a red tag on a post it is locking the thread.

lol ty thats what ive been saying, expecialy when people are letting blame on someone for something they have no direct control over… there is always kitten on the net though… that being said
@ Robert Hrouda
if you want to get on here and talk about dungeon stuff you have been working on or want to show off feel free to do so, there are some folks that do apreciate your presence here in the ranger forums and would share the same kindness in your field as you have in our horribly mangled feild that has vampire gophers and what not living in it (hence the folks lashing out at all and any devs)

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Ursan is essentially correct. Players will always want their class to be stronger – but devs have to temper that with overall balance on many different levels. Sometimes a simple number fix will suffice, but sometimes there is more to it.

We see the problems and read the threads. We all play the game and experience it like you all do. Prioritizing what gets fixed, when, and how isn’t a simple task, but we are making headway.

I think with this one the Ranger went backwards. As a very simple example you take a 50% speed reduction on a trait and leave the duration the same, you are hurting the class damage no matter what.

I really dislike the unified aspect of class balancing. The quickness nerf is a blanket solution that fixes one problem but creates a lot of others for certain classes.

I also dislike guided balance. I do not wish to use a different weapon now (greatsword) because of some umbrella change to the entire game. Otherwise, why even have a choice to take certain weapons (Longbow) when they are far, far inferior to everything else?

That being said, I think what is perceived as crying by the Ranger community is really frustration at being pigeonholed into certain builds/sets for really no reason.

Given pet AI is still/has always been a big concern, they’re probably waiting on making changes until that step is complete. If/Once they figure this part out, things should feel a lot better for rangers.
Everything must be put on hold until pets are fixed, since pets are so integral to the profession. Any intermediate fix to ranger at the moment is a short-term fix (costly and not profitable, long-term), given the current state of pets. Since spirits are least related to pets (similar to traps; unlike shouts and signets that work directly with pets), a fix to these would be a wonderful thing.
A brief progress report on pet ai would be nice. A strong pet (and general NPC?) ai would do wonders for this game. I hope they are sufficiently investing in this!
Side note: Would it be better to allow most pet skills to home in on the pet’s target, like speeding up or adding range and movement to most pet skills? This could accommodate an ai that did not hog system resources. It might not work well on cliff edges, though (sees dog jumping off a cliff to attack a rabbit). It could be messy near swimming areas, too.

Instinctual Bond should probably get some kind of boost now that quickness has changed… not sure if I’ve seen anyone mention that.

Insho.3714:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Sure things need more attention. LB, pets, spirits.. they all need some love on our part, and they will get it.

I hope you realize this was pretty much promised about 5 months ago without seeing big improvements patch after patch after patch.
So i can imagine people are very disappointed when they see no changes in the areas that need attention and only respond to the negative impact on changes that brings our class even further down.
If this update would have had fixes in the oh so needed areas (LB, pets, etc) you wouldn’t have seen soo many complaints about destroying a class.

QFT

I’d prefer to see responses from ANET towards the above…
Oh, and watching the March state of the game video, when approached about the ranger class, it looked like ANET people were like deer caught in front of the headlights.

The only thing this patch did IMO was provide just one more reason why it’s not fun to play a LB Ranger (esp. in WvW). Why should I be forced to play a BM/Condition/Trap build and wield a GS just to be the most viable and competitive in WvW?

Look, if they’re looking to balance WvW, keep it separate.
There IS a flag the game can put on a character to tell if it’s in WvW or not.
Simple, if player is in WvW, adjustments to how the class plays in that environment(for the sake of WvW balance) to be applied. Leave the PvE portion out of WvW. It doesn’t always work well, especially since your AI is not PvE but ‘actual’ real opponents. Our pets can attest to this!

In case i can put up an ‘issue’ here about the ranger, the ‘swamp/marsh drake’ doesn’t seem to have the correct skin anymore. Not entirely sure which skin it does have, but it was one with a short snout.

Pet AI isn’t the only problem with Pets.

Bad F2’s, Or terrible mechanics when using the F2 (Pigs/Some Howls/Drakes) are all problems..

Pigs have amazing utility, but using them in combat is a huge pain in the kitten #8230;Hell before the last patch I suppose you could make a field of the objects, but that was changed so you can abuse that anymore. Imagine if Pigs F2 worked like Steal for example….Pigs would instantly be amazing and the utility would help Rangers a lot

Howls from Dogs, In reality its really only the wolf that is amazing..The others are alright..But the cast time on Howls and the short radius they have make them kind of useless most of the time unless you’re standing right next to them.

Drakes, I know some people are like “What? Drakes are amazing” For PVE i’ll agree, PvP though the cast time of the F2 on the cones is WAY to long..They’d be better if when swapping pets we could use our F2 right afterwards with the quickness, However if anyone has ever actually done this, you’ll notice that everytime you swap your drake, he’s facing away from the bloody enemy and takes around 2 seconds before he even turns… Some of the Drake F2’s are alright, the River and Swamp Drake for example, Though River will miss his attack most of the time unless you Entangle the enemy first.

Swamp Drake is honestly the best one, simply because his attack ignores LOS and has 900 Range.

Devourers Other then the Rending Barb one are for the most part pretty crap… If you have a choice you want the one with Rending Barb as the other two’s F2’s are pretty garbage.

Spiders are fairly decent CC wise, DPS they blow… but all 3 of their F2’s can be useful depending on what talents you choose.

Moa’s I don’t like, some of the F2’s are nice (looking at Red and Blue Moa’s) however the heal is incredibly unreliable as you have no control over it….I mean its a good heal, But Hell..I have no idea when it’ll go off.

Bears, Good for PVE, not great in my opinion in PvP…

We honestly need Condition Based pets in my opinion, Like the Spiders for example…Imagine if they had less power and more condition damage, and more condition based attacks..Would make them used a bit more…Devourers probably the same.

well overall the ranger probably got weaker with the update (relative to other classes). quickness is the one and only thing where you can say the ranger excels at. now its cut in half and the quickness duration on pet-swap wasn’t increased to compensate. its a big hit.

But there are positives too. i always liked the “feel” of playing with GS so the buff was awesome. the auto-attack damage can still be somewhat depressing, but maul is great now and the 2 utility skills have nice cooldowns. I always liked the idea of melee ranger, but the GS was too weak and the sword is just unusable for the most part (cant move while attacking, cant dodge while attacking and you fall off ledges a lot. for me disabling AA is not an option in PvE, i just cant press “1” million times while playing). GS is now a good, viable option for rangers. I get to actually see big numbers with a ranger (maul with hunt signet active + f2 on the raven), its very rewarding :P

i really like the fix to “lick wounds” and “search and rescue” too. it finally works well.

So overall i would say im happy with the update. Ranger was the weakest PvE class before the update and it still is, so nothing really changed balance-wise. But GS is now a good weapon for rangers, our pets can rez, have agony resistance and HoM pets are finally usable. Quickness was a global change it just hit rangers the most. Ranger-specific changes were all welcome and positive.

Still needs work, hopefully the next patch at least lessens the gap to guard/war/mesmer trinity. What i would like to see is: reduced signet cooldowns, buffs to some of the really bad traits, some way of getting some might stacks, spirit rework that makes them usable, more ways to help the party (boons, utility, unique abilities, anything that makes them wanted in groups) and as always more damage

Robert Hrouda.1327:

I’m still here and lurking about (as is the balance team), gathering information to bring to meetings. For the first couple days after a patch, people are still figuring things out and getting used to changes. We didn’t kill rangers (I was doing some PvP last night, and have done a couple dungeon runs). It’s just that there’s a predictable reaction to when we change something, that we have killed classes and destroyed builds, and there’s nothing I can say or do to help in those situations. Sometimes you have to sit back and let the community sort themselves out… people depend on something (quickness) and then when that gets changed, there’s an initial period of confusion, but its always followed by “look what I can do” because people are being forced to try new things, and they do a bit of experimenting they may have not have done before.
Sure things need more attention. LB, pets, spirits.. they all need some love on our part, and they will get it. I may not be the best PvP’r out there, but I was first/second place on my team in the three games I played as a ranger (deer rank!), and I was still effective against other classes. the new quickness speed will take some getting used to, but it by no means destroyed rangers.

But me going into every thread about someone claiming bad things and giving expressions isn’t going to help (there are also a lot of those threads that I just wouldn’t be able to keep track of due to time constraints). So I sit back, watch, take notes for meetings, and try to find a good time to post to help guide the conversation.

1) While I understand the idea of “letting the community sort itself out”, the logic of that doesn’t stand up to the current circumstances.

The reason is that nothing really big has changed in the ranger profession to make any new build really offset the current situation, at least in PvE. The only potential changes that would positively offset the nerf in the area of PvE performance is the buff to the greatsword. However, greatsword builds aren’t new and this isn’t the first time there has been a buff to the greatsword to give the weapon attention.

There have been no buffs to utility, so the ranger isn’t suddenly going to have viable support builds discovered.

The greatsword is also so far behind anything like a warrior in PvE that there’s no way a few small tweaks to a few of the skills on the greatsword that it would overcome not only how much lower the greatsword was in dps compared to the short bow/longbow, but also to overcome the dps loss of the quickness nerf.

2) I don’t think the complaints about the ranger have much to do with PvP since trap builds don’t rely on quickness like beserker PvE dps builds do.

Dahkeus.8243:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

I’m still here and lurking about (as is the balance team), gathering information to bring to meetings. For the first couple days after a patch, people are still figuring things out and getting used to changes. We didn’t kill rangers (I was doing some PvP last night, and have done a couple dungeon runs). It’s just that there’s a predictable reaction to when we change something, that we have killed classes and destroyed builds, and there’s nothing I can say or do to help in those situations. Sometimes you have to sit back and let the community sort themselves out… people depend on something (quickness) and then when that gets changed, there’s an initial period of confusion, but its always followed by “look what I can do” because people are being forced to try new things, and they do a bit of experimenting they may have not have done before.
Sure things need more attention. LB, pets, spirits.. they all need some love on our part, and they will get it. I may not be the best PvP’r out there, but I was first/second place on my team in the three games I played as a ranger (deer rank!), and I was still effective against other classes. the new quickness speed will take some getting used to, but it by no means destroyed rangers.

But me going into every thread about someone claiming bad things and giving expressions isn’t going to help (there are also a lot of those threads that I just wouldn’t be able to keep track of due to time constraints). So I sit back, watch, take notes for meetings, and try to find a good time to post to help guide the conversation.

1) While I understand the idea of “letting the community sort itself out”, the logic of that doesn’t stand up to the current circumstances.

The reason is that nothing really big has changed in the ranger profession to make any new build really offset the current situation, at least in PvE. The only potential changes that would positively offset the nerf in the area of PvE performance is the buff to the greatsword. However, greatsword builds aren’t new and this isn’t the first time there has been a buff to the greatsword to give the weapon attention.

There have been no buffs to utility, so the ranger isn’t suddenly going to have viable support builds discovered.

The greatsword is also so far behind anything like a warrior in PvE that there’s no way a few small tweaks to a few of the skills on the greatsword that it would overcome not only how much lower the greatsword was in dps compared to the short bow/longbow, but also to overcome the dps loss of the quickness nerf.

2) I don’t think the complaints about the ranger have much to do with PvP since trap builds don’t rely on quickness like beserker PvE dps builds do.

PVP is different to WvsW.

just change trap range to 1200 so i can sit behind a zerg and be useful in wvwvw.

jan.9745:

PVP is different to WvsW.

WvW is a subgroup of PvP, but if you were confused, then let me clarify: I was talking specifically about sPvP (structured player vs player) and tPvP (tournament player vs player).