Guild Wars 2

I’ve come here prepared to be flamed.
Because I know the satisfied rangers that love their class are out there enjoying it, such as myself who has been reading this forum since launch. I’ve finally found time to voice the opinion of a satisfied ranger.
Now first off-yes the bug with SB 1 and QZ is UNACCEPTABLE, and I am with everyone there. The answer to this is not to spam whine threads but be patient and see if it is not fixed in the next patch. All the bugs listen in the sticky are also addressed, but these are BUGS not design flaws. Also yes, Spirits are for the most part unviable (Spirit of Nature exception), but most classes have a currently unviable spec.
But rangers, everywhere else, are NOT the bottom of the barrel class they are being made out to be.
You are just doing it wrong.
Let’s address the complaints before I go into the strengths and the way to properly play a ranger.

-Lack of damage compared to Warrior
Yes, it’s true that a warrior as is has better ranged options for DAMAGE. That’s how it is. Our ranged options alone vs. their’s are inferior because we have a pet. All these “TIME TO ROLLWARRIORZ” threads are getting out of hand. If you WANT TO DO NOTHING BUT DAMAGE FROM RANGE YES ROLL WARRIOR. You don’t belong in this forum or using this class. Goodbye.

-Longbow sucks
Longbow 2 actually has amazing burst damage, throw in quickness on pet swap and you have an easy 5k+ burst every 16-20 seconds. from RANGED.

-Arrows are easy to dodge
First off the bug with longbow being obstructed is again, a bug. Second, yes arrows are easy to dodge, and melee are easy to kite. Do you think about the complaints before you make them? What fix do you propose? Make them undodgeable? What if all the changes you whiners want were implemented? What if rangers could do 10k+burst with longbow/SB from ranged and it was undodgeable? You would ALSO be on the recieving end of an absurd burst combo that is easy to pull off because its from 1200-1500 Range away.

-Pet’s are “broken”
Yes pets could use minor tweaks, reduced cast times and animations. But did you ever stop to think what it would be like if pets COULD attack on the move? If you could just F1 to victory? Back in the beta when people were scrubs and didnt dodge or kite, my cats could solo many players. If pets were unABLE to kited/avoided, it would be a pretty permenant dps increase for rangers without any thought. Pets do a lot of damage and have a lot of varied and niche uses for CC/Protection/Burst. You just need to learn how to use them. Hyena=2 leap knockdowns? Hello? Other classes would KILL to have those for free with no utilities/traits specc’d.

-Weapon sets are weak and unviable. Some of these concerns are ligitimate. Again they are BUGS and require patience. ANET KNOWS Sword 1 roots you in place and is very unsafe to use. The weapon set itself allows for abusrd amounts of burst and might for your pet=more burst. This complaint will lead me into my section for what we are GOOD at, because mostly people are looking at the strict “numbers” for damage that a set does and calling it “weak.”

Why you’re doing it wrong
Rangers are not ranged thieves. Stop wanting them to be. Stop rolling a warrior in an attempt to find a ranged thief that can burst someone down in seconds. Just go play a thief if you want big numbers.
Rangers are EXPERTS at:
-Control
This is not mindgame mesmer conrtol. This is straight up: CONTROL. You say are ranged weapons suck compared to Warriors?
Compare our control abilities:
Rifle butt: Range 130 – Point Black Shot: Range 600
Pin Down: Single Target Immobilize 3s – Barrage: AoE Cripple for 12s if Channelled
Short bow 3 – None on Warriors Weaponkits
Short bow 5- No comparison on Warriors weapon kits

On SB we have-Free dodge and gap creator, Cripple, Stun/Daze from ranged.
That’s what we bring to a team/dungeon. Control.

Traps, no one else does traps as well as us. Thief traps are a really a joke when compared. Ice Trap is underused and underappreciated. You know we are one of only two classes capable of creating Ice fields? Do you know how MASSIVE an AoE -66% DPS (yes DPS, skill recharge rate=DPS) and Movement reduction is? That can be applied and stacked as a combo field? These fields are huge for dungeons, these traps are huge for point control/skirmishes in PvP.

Pets-they bring control. Huge amounts. Canines with leap knockdowns and AoE Fear/Immobilize. Raven with Blind/burst. Black Bear with AoE Weakness. The list goes on. You need to COMBINE your cc with your pet. You CC they CC. Stop complaining that they just walk away from your pets, its like a warrior complaining they just walk away from 100B without anyother CC to set it up. The range on most of the howls are huge anyway.

-Mobility
This is what Warriors DON"T have. You dodge their bulls charge or stun break it? What do they do. They cry. They get kited. By YOU.
You can’t argue we don’t have the best mobility in the game. Thieves? They are good at engage/disengage. But during a fight? They are pretty limited at getting around. You can predict their movements in stealth or have them set off traps.

We have the most free dodges in the game.
1. Lightning Reflexes
2. Shortbow 3
3. Dagger 4
4. Sword 3
5. Sword 2
6. GS 1, yes, a LAND AUTO ATTACK with a free Evade. This is huge.
This is also without using endurance. This is without the easy accses to vigor on heal/crit we have or 50% natural permanent endurace regen.

Speaking of Greatsword. What an undervalued set. People still focus on “not enough damage.” The PET brings the damage. And the Greatsword brings you and your pet TO the fight.

Swoop is the biggest melee cap closer IN THE GAME. It is 1200 range. You Swoop into Muddy Terrain/Spike Trap/Ice Trap then come to be complaining about pets not hitting their target. Swoop+Pet Swap+Weapon swap to a more bursty weapon.

-Support
In addition to all this we have great support abilities. Traps themselves offer great support for other classes to combo. Control goes into being support. Now let’s talk about Healing Spring/Spirit of Nature. Healing Spring, again, being one of only THREE classes that can bring a water field which can=permanent regen to your PvE or PvP team. AoE healig on splash.
Spirit of Nature brings a Warbanner every THIRTY SECONDS, AND heals AND removes conditions. Yes it can die, but that is time you bought/your positioning. Someone should have to go out of position to kill it and you can exploit that with your CC.

“But Fate guardian’s do conditional removal better.” Yes they do, but they don’t have the rest of our kit with mobility and control. WE DO. Stop talking about what other classes have and what we don’t, and focus on what we DO have and are good at.

Conclusion
This isn’t too much of a L2P thread. Its a “open up your mind and look at your class as it IS and was MEANT to be.” If you are STUCK on the idea HAVING to use ranged weapons SB/LB and WANTING to see large numbers while afk shootign someone, then either
1. Suck it up and realize our ranged weapons bring much more control and mobility than a warrior
2. Roll a warrior and have fun seeing big numbers everyone once in awhile against people that stand still, and thinking banners > Traps.

I cannot stress this enough. Stop whining about our damage. If you WANT TO DO DAMAGE AND ONLY DAMAGE this is not your class. I don’t know why you thought it would be. I don’t know how much research you did about pets being key to our sucess or the versatility of our kits, but you didn’t do enough.
Bugs will be fixed, eventually.
But our class design is beautiful and fun for those that want it.
Now please think before you post, “is this a problem with the Ranger or a problem with what I want out of a class?”

Thanks John, any chance we can get an update on the QZ bug please?

I like your positive thread. More of that from all rangers would be nice. I love my ranger and my pets. Yes there are issues with the ranger but they will be fixed (hopefully) sooner or later. Until then lets make the best out of it and help each other to perform even better.

How can we be a “control class, not a damage class” when all professions are supposed to be able to fill a variety of roles?

Your entire post can basically is summarized as “use the least-ineffective spec we have left” which is no different than what was happening when everyone was on shortbow with either crit or condition spec. The same discussions were basically had about if you were using longbow or greatsword you were “doing it wrong.”

There is no valid claim to being more skilled or capable with the class just because you choose the spec that is basically the least broken (which is not the same as saying most effective, because that would suggest it were comparatively effective to begin with).

You listed several examples of other classes filling this role out better, but dismiss it away with “don’t worry about other classes.” That’s just ignoring the problem rather than fixing it. People make grouping decisions based on what will give them the best chances of successful or faster outcomes, if we aren’t capable of competing with another class, they will be chosen more often.

Now please think before you post, “is this a problem with the Ranger or a problem with the coding?”

Hello, Sword bug. Hello, Pet A.I.. Hello, Spirits who lack staying power. Hello weapon abilities who provide nothing except utility, save the 1 slot, which is “not fun” to spam.

Nice double wall of text there, but you’re clearly in denial of the mechanical issues which require developer resolutions and not player skills. The fact that my pet cannot deal significant damage – because it cannot move and attack at the same time – is not the fault or any lack of skills on my part. That’s a job for the programers to tackle.

/soapbox

Fate.8673

-Mobility
This is what Warriors DON"T have. You dodge their bulls charge or stun break it? What do they do. They cry. They get kited. By YOU.
You can’t argue we don’t have the best mobility in the game. Thieves? They are good at engage/disengage. But during a fight? They are pretty limited at getting around. You can predict their movements in stealth or have them set off traps.

We have the most free dodges in the game.
1. Lightning Reflexes
2. Shortbow 3
3. Dagger 4
4. Sword 3
5. Sword 2
6. GS 1, yes, a LAND AUTO ATTACK with a free Evade. This is huge.
This is also without using endurance. This is without the easy accses to vigor on heal/crit we have or 50% natural permanent endurace regen.

Speaking of Greatsword. What an undervalued set. People still focus on “not enough damage.” The PET brings the damage. And the Greatsword brings you and your pet TO the fight.

Swoop is the biggest melee cap closer IN THE GAME. It is 1200 range. You Swoop into Muddy Terrain/Spike Trap/Ice Trap then come to be complaining about pets not hitting their target. Swoop+Pet Swap+Weapon swap to a more bursty weapon.

-Support
In addition to all this we have great support abilities. Traps themselves offer great support for other classes to combo. Control goes into being support. Now let’s talk about Healing Spring/Spirit of Nature. Healing Spring, again, being one of only TWO classes that can bring a water field which can=permanent regen to your PvE or PvP team. AoE healig on splash.
Spirit of Nature brings a Warbanner every THIRTY SECONDS, AND heals AND removes conditions. Yes it can die, but that is time you bought/your positioning. Someone should have to go out of position to kill it and you can exploit that with your CC.

YOu missed some mobility healing spring advantages if traited.

+50% endurance regen
Vigor on being crit
[Vigorous renewal] in conjunction with healing spring (AOE vigor for up to 18 seconds)

A new personal favorite of mine AOE vigor in conjunction with Healing spring for 10 points in Wilderness Survival. [Vigorous Renewal] When you cast the healing spring and every time the spring refreshes the regen(every 3.25 seconds) it’s regen it grants vigor of 3.25 as well. SO healing spring becomes 18 seconds of healing + 18 seconds vigor. Add in the 5 second talent on being crit and we can have vigor up for 23 of every 30 seconds on us. Using a greatsword makes it easier to stay inside the spring dodging edge to edge.

Our endurance and therefore active dodge potential plus our weapon evades is substantial.

Very good post OP. I have moving in that direction as well in my WvW build. I started using SB / GS with canines and it worked really well last night. Still need some help on traits, what do you think is the best trait set for this type of max mobility build?

I am sorry but OP post is not correct, as far as mobility skills 7,8,9 of other classes we have the worst. Yes we can make a bunker build but your whole L2p QQ NEWBS is totally incorrect look at rangers. Any class can be high mobility, intact thiefs have better mobility then us. We dont have the most bugs that is true, but we have the worst weapons and are the second most passed class in pvp and the first most in pve.

Yes kerri said it best in the first sentence. We were told there is no longer tanks, healers, DPS, and CCer’s. All classes can perform these things. Look you can polish a kitten all you want fate… at the end of the day its still a kitten All I got from your post is we need to be in a group to be successful.

Not true. Most arguments. All that you said is theorycraft, and actually very far from the truth. First come play the thief, elementalist, engineer, warrior. anyone. And then tell people to stop comparing ranger with them.
For example, do you know that a thief with a short bow is able to do more 15(yea yea) dodges in a row with dealing some damage?

All classes have control. Some better than the Ranger, in my opinion. But no class have is so low damage as ranger. No class has half of useless skills that even a fool would have not set on panel. Why people should not want more damage if they do have nothing special instead?

In short, your idea is: ranger have no damage, half the skills are useless, all possible is bagged, but if you do not like to play with something that is – you suck and you can roll out of here to your warriors.

By the way, do you know who have traps twice better than the ranger? Necromancer!

I rolled a Necro after I found out using 1 on the Short Bow is no fun and Megazlo is 100% correct, their traps are awesome. Going to the most bugged class (necro) they are 100times more viable in any situation then the Ranger.
I miss my ranger, but they are hit harder with a nerf bat then a las vegas prostitute.

I agree with your idea that ranger weapons provide great kite ability, but kite ability doesnt mean control ability. I have encountered millions of times that my opponents just run away from me when they realize they are in a bad position against me, our ability to make someone stay is terrible, if we are control expert then Necro is control master while Mesmers are control god. Playing a ranger is like we have small missles while other class also have, but they have atomic bombs which we dont have. There are classes out there can keep you guessing and kill you even you guessed 1 time wrong, while we have to play a long chess game and find out we only have Pawns.

Yes, thousands of rangers are doing it wrong, I mean the pros make sure their arrows dont arc, or sword doesnt root, or pets hit moving targets, the rest of us are baddies. Im amazined, how did you get 5k burst, thats incredible, share your secret. 5k burst every 15-20 secs is like…op right? Oh wait thats right, any other class can get 5k burst in 2 seconds. Every class can go glass cannon and be fine except ranger, every class has more than 1 viable option for damage ( except maybe necros ) every other class doesnt rely on a buggy pet to do 50% of their damage ( yes I said 50%, look up jaguar or raven, kitten hits hard ). But kitten skippy we are doing it wrong.

Share your secret master guru sir, I mean, I cant fathom 5k burst in 15-20 seconds. Sorry but I cant do this anymore, get past lvl 20 and then we can speak, my raven does more than 5k in pvp, I dont. I hate having my pet do more damage than me, and Im a fricken glass cannon, shouldnt happen. Id be happy if they fixed the bugs, buffed longbow a bit, maybe gave hunters shot more damage so longbow has another damage option, and increased arrow flight speed via mechanic or trait., and increase longbow auto attack speed. Yes Im a longbow man.

I’m going to try hard not to flame here and derail because I appreciate the thought and detail you put into the post.

I too have a deep understanding of the ranger class and like you had come to many of the same conclusions you did. I believed at the time that the rangers evasion was one of the key strengths of the class and the available combo field generators and finishers was one of the strongest points. I still believe that rangers have the most combo finishers available of any class.

The problem in all of this is that everyone else does it better. Outside of the 2 combo fields you mentioned the ranger doesn’t do anything else better than other classes. So with that said I’ll touch on a few of your points:

• Mobility – This is the advantage I thought a ranger had until I played a thief.. not only are they more mobile on the battlefield and have access to stealth, they can stack vigor just as much (maybe more..) as us, get evade on dodges, have their own version of Lightning Reflexes in Roll for Initiative and even have a heal that has an evade in Withdraw. Nope sorry.. this is why I rolled a ranger at launch and why after playing a thief I probably won’t go back. I wanted to be a roamer.. thief does it better.

• Ranged damage – Yeah we were supposed to be pretty good at this one and you may think you are until you play a warrior and even better than a warrior is an Engineer. Grenades.. nuff said

• Control – BlusterWolf.2103 said it the best.. mid range control at best.

So the problem is that what is the class defining feature of the ranger? Every class has that niche.. steal, shatter, death shroud, kits, etc.. we get a pet. A pet that has a laundry list of bugs, has never really worked right and is the reason that the ranger itself doesn’t do more damage because it would be overpowered. I played in the BWE.. sure pet’s made a pretty big move during them, but they are still far far from being even close to any of the other professions. The #1 priority should be to make our class defining trait as useful as all of the other professions. None of the other professions have to go through as much work as we do to utilize the class defining skill to their advantage. That needs to happen before my ranger will ever see the light of day again.

Fate.8673:

Now let’s talk about Healing Spring/Spirit of Nature. Healing Spring, again, being one of only TWO classes that can bring a water field which can=permanent regen to your PvE or PvP team. AoE healig on splash.

Actually it’s one of three professions that can provide water combo fields.
The Engineer’s Healing Turret creates an about 1 second lasting water field every ~6 seconds and the Healing Turret tool belt skill creates a water field, too.

DesertRose.2031:

Fate.8673:

Now let’s talk about Healing Spring/Spirit of Nature. Healing Spring, again, being one of only TWO classes that can bring a water field which can=permanent regen to your PvE or PvP team. AoE healig on splash.

Actually it’s one of three professions that can provide water combo fields.
The Engineer’s Healing Turret creates an about 1 second lasting water field every ~6 seconds and the Healing Turret tool belt skill creates a water field, too.

Technically this isn’t correct either.. a thief can create a water combo field with the steal skill by stealing from a….. ranger. Yeah that is pretty priceless.

Let’s play the whatever you can do my thief can do better game.. come on play along.

BlusterWolf.2103:

I agree with your idea that ranger weapons provide great kite ability, but kite ability doesnt mean control ability. I have encountered millions of times that my opponents just run away from me when they realize they are in a bad position against me, our ability to make someone stay is terrible, if we are control expert then Necro is control master while Mesmers are control god. Playing a ranger is like we have small missles while other class also have, but they have atomic bombs which we dont have. There are classes out there can keep you guessing and kill you even you guessed 1 time wrong, while we have to play a long chess game and find out we only have Pawns.

Perhaps more importantly in Spvp, Tpvp you are contesting fixed points with a circular radius. Kiting in a circle keeps you in range and linear kiting concedes the objective that wins the match. In the end to win you have to contest hold a point. That requires being able to push people off a point not rely on them to let you kite and kill them off it.

The goal isn’t to get kills it’s to win objectives. And kiting is of limited tactical benefit for most win objectives.

kharza.3974:

DesertRose.2031:

Actually it’s one of three professions that can provide water combo fields.
The Engineer’s Healing Turret creates an about 1 second lasting water field every ~6 seconds and the Healing Turret tool belt skill creates a water field, too.

Technically this isn’t correct either.. a thief can create a water combo field with the steal skill by stealing from a….. ranger. Yeah that is pretty priceless.

Let’s play the whatever you can do my thief can do better game.. come on play along.

Thieves are OP. :-P

Coming on the ranger forum and calling everyone noobs basically, because we are making legit complaints about a broken profession is a good way to make friends I hear.

Fate, your bad, always will be bad, and clearly haven’t played other class’s because your whole wall of text screams I don’t know what im talking about our class has “minor” bugs thats all guyzzzz!

Namu.5712:

Coming on the ranger forum and calling everyone noobs basically, because we are making legit complaints about a broken profession is a good way to make friends I hear.

Fate, your bad, always will be bad, and clearly haven’t played other class’s because your whole wall of text screams I don’t know what im talking about our class has “minor” bugs thats all guyzzzz!

Now I think you are being a little harsh on the guy. In his eyes the ranger is overpowered, because when you are only fighting the skiritt all day.. well we do pretty much own them. I mean it makes me feel like a real man again to go beat down the skiritt to boost up my ranger moral. People/Casuals will never learn the mechanics and depth of a game like powergamers, thus they can’t see the fundamental issues and synergies. The other issues is they are most likely not playing against the higher and better competition and thus can’t see some of the weaknesses as well. Sure the class isn’t destitute but when you compare it objectively to any other class (meaning you need to go play another class to be able to compare.. try a thief.. I encourage you) it is glaring that it needs help.

Just for a good laugh read this thread.. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Rangers-made-me-quit-wvw/first#post470351

the last two posts basically said what i wanted to say. i think i’m just scarred by my experience in CoE where you NEED big numbers and Alpha just AoEs you and your pets to an early grave…. then i think of what kinda run it would be with 3 rangers or more in that squad. oh god!

my ranger is trap based and uses a lot of mobility…. but it’s still horrible in comparison to my warrior that just destroys everything, has better armor, survivability, and buffs to the group…. AND lesser gear than my ranger!

one thing my ranger is awesome for though in WvWvW is that it runs away faster and better than most classes… except mesmers and thiefs.

gibby.9328:

snip..

one thing my ranger is awesome for though in WvWvW is that it runs away faster and better than most classes… except mesmers and thiefs.

This post is so full of win.. well done!

I had no idea that Healing Spring granted vigor to allies as well with the Vigorous Renewal trait, thanks for the tip.

@deepwinter: Once again, those are bugs and I addressed them. Obviously bugs need to be fixed. Our class though, and the numbers for the most part, are a lot better than what everyone seems to be making and I’m glad there are more people that agree with me.

@barruktp: Traits are up to you whether you need traps or not. Don’t touch the Marksmanship tree if you’re Melee centered, or even have 1 melee/1 range imo. I think the Wildnerness Survival tree up to 10 points is a must for any ranger. At 10 points you can have Vigorous Renewal for melee based ranger, or if you use QZ/LR the 20% Reduction on Survival abilities is excellent.

My “maximum” burst build is centered around my pet and getting obscene amounts of might, so I have 15 in BM for the reduced swap cooldown and 3 stacks of might on swap and 15 in Nature Magic so all the might buffs I get from Sigil of Strength go to my pet (which is a lot if you use it with quickness.)

I love traps as well so I have 30 in Skrimishing. Plus the best pet traits are in the skirmish line also. (30% Increased Crit damage+Carnivorous Apetite+Trap Mastery). I don’t take the ranged trap talent because I’m in melee range anyway when I set off traps, but sometimes I switch to it when I use Axe/Warhorn.

So I typically swoop in, go to town on someone, and then use traps to lockdown the rest with traps while abusing my block, dodges and vigor.

There are other playstyles that can be used. I know a lot of people going 20/25/10/15 for LB/SB and being very successful and kiting and being untouchable with consistent damage output and quickness.

Namu.5712:

Coming on the ranger forum and calling everyone noobs basically, because we are making legit complaints about a broken profession is a good way to make friends I hear.

Fate, your bad, always will be bad, and clearly haven’t played other class’s because your whole wall of text screams I don’t know what im talking about our class has “minor” bugs thats all guyzzzz!

You aren’t really summarizing my post correctly, which happens a lot when you don’t fully understand/read it.

There are a lot of bugs, yes, there are no doubt that some of these even hinder our ability to play a certain spec/way. Your legitimate complaints about bugs are heard. Your illegitimate whining about our damage or the way our class works falls on deaf ears.

Thank you for the predictable post Namu. I’m not here to make friends I’m here to shed light on the other side of the Ranger community who really like this class and want to understand it and use it to its fullest potential.

This is straight up: CONTROL. You say are ranged weapons suck compared to Warriors? Do THEY have:
Point blank knockback (on the WEAPONSET kick is a UTILITY slot that requires investment), AoE Crippple, Ranged Vulnerability application. On SB we have-Free dodge and gap creator, Cripple, Stun/Daze from ranged.

Not sure if troll. I don’t know much about rangers, but I just had to refute this portion of the post.

Warrior Rifle 5 = point blank knockback Warrior Rifle 4 = Ranged vulnerability Warrior Rifle 2 = Single Target cripple.

Since you are bringing up Ranger Longbow AND Shortbow, then I will also add in Warrior’s 2nd ranged control options.

Warrior Longbow 4 = AOE Blind , Warrior Longbow 5 = Immobilize

That doesn’t even take into account much higher damage, and also the ability to add bleed, and burning damage, and a large fire combo field.

I agree completly, some rangers are pretending it’s such a weak class, I play ranger as main and I’m very satisfied with my class, except the Shortbow nerf which was uncalled for and the SB + QZ bug, there is other classes that deserved a nerf more than rangers, but our class is far away from kitteny lads, it’s just that ranger scales better with skill, the more skilled you are the better you will be, every class is like that but ranger scales even more mesmer aswell. Well written OP.

Ranger is by far the worst class in the game, i leveled one to 80 thinking they would be boosted yet they got nerfed..lol!

If you want to play a broken class, play the ranger, be my guest, be prepared for no one even wanting you. perceptions do matter..

I played a level (16)..yes level (16) engineer in WvW last night and got more badges than i EVER got on my level 80 full exotic Ranger, go figure..

@Kharza: I actually play a Thief as well, its my first alt, and I use it to PvP regularly.

The mobility is not the same. If I want to get from A to point B ASAP, yes Shortbow 5 is an excellent ability to close gaps. Then when I get there I’m out of initiative, so it has its costs.

I’m talking about onpoint skirmish mobility. You mention Roll for Initiative and Withdraw. Both have you roll BACKWARD away from whatever you’re fighting. I can dodge any way I want. I can dodge around you with my Sword+Dagger. I have the best melee gap closer in the game without spending any initiative points.

ALSO when I am dodging as a ranger I am still doing damage through my pets and traps As a thief? Sure, evade and withdraw away. I’m not going to chase you and I don’t care, I’ve gotten you off my objective and you’re doing kitten for damage. Sure is it harder to CATCH a thief than a ranger? Absolutely. Caltrops+3 Dodges will kitten you up, so don’t chase them. Simple counter. Ranger? You can catch. But its going to hurt running through my traps and pets.

Thieves burst is better. Yes. I’ve gotten those 10k+ Backstab crits, and they were nice. But the opportunity for it doesn’t happen that often. It takes a lot of preparation and timing. And people KNOW to focus a Thief because they melt. They are like paper in traps. I’ve killed thieves who tried to stay permanently stealthed against me.

Control: Yes midrange control with traps. How are Mesmers better? They have a few single target stuns, 1 aoe shatter daze, and what? My gf mains a mesmer and I played one for the first two Betas. They can duel the kitten out of you, they can kill you if you make one mistake yes. Again I am not here to talk about what Mesmers do better than Rangers because THEY DO, I am here to say they do not do EVERYTHING better and what we do better than EVERYONE else.

That’s what this thread is about, getting people to understand what our niche is, and either they like it or they need to go to another class that has the niche they are looking for. But the statement “everyone else does everything better” is flat out not true.

and so what gives you the right to come in here and point fingers claiming they should l2p and qq moar. this is for the discussion of a class not a “look how well im doin” comp. people that ask for the rangers to be buffed have good reason to.im sure many of us enjoy it too but we’re simply discussing the extreme amounts of problems associated with the class. there is a comic online which has one panel where the waiter asks " would you like more cake" and the other the waiter asks “would you like THE REST of your cake” we are simply being outdone by every other class.
for a ranger our ranged skills other than 1 are pretty crappy and/or have high cooldowns.melee also simply isnt viable.

do not come here and point fingers unless you can back it up with solid evidence that the players state is as you say it is.

@jnu: you’re right. I was aware of the AoE fields on LB but unfamiliar with some of the rifle kit.

Warriors are very good at melee control with stomp, fear me, and the like. I’ll edit the OP to focus more on our mid-range control.

Fate, could you imagine if warriors could combine the rangers shortbow + longbow give or take a few skills into 1 weapon? Well if you cant, I can, its called the rifle. Its pretty much got everything important except barrage or conc shot but its rifle butt is also aoe knockback, the rifle is much easier to trait for because its 20% cd recharge trait also pierces. So yea. Warriors have it easier, my thief melts people even in 2v1 situations. My thiefs shortbow does 5-6k cluster bombs, and when I dancing dagger a ranger, it hits him for 7-8k unless he is a bunker. That is dancing daggers that is spamable for 4-5 times.

So yea rangers need alot of loving. Lets start by fixing bugs, buffing longbow damage, increasing arrow flight speed, giving pets more survivabilty and take 90% less damage from aoe, throw in making the special attacks of pets go instantly instead of long drawn out animations, and reduce the cd on pet swap when the pet dies too 15-20 secs not 50-60 secs. Oh and combine quickdraw and piercing arrows, just makes sense…

OP – I mostly agree. I run a ground-targeted trap build and prefer to stick to flame and frost because of the combo fields. I then USE those combo fields to my advantage. Flame trap + longbow qs will unload a huge amount of damage. Frost trap is totally underestimated – chilling enemies completely removes their teeth, and you can stack it up nicely with projectiles. Throw in swoop and I can enter melee with self-applied frost aura more often than an ele themselves can apply it.

BTW GS outside of dungeons is a perfectly viable weapon. In fact, combined with a DPS pet (I like the eagle), thrown traps and combo fields it’s superb. In dungeons, due to the silly melee damage on silver mobs I trade it for axe/warhorn which is a very strong setup for group play. I always have either a longbow or a shortbow equipped. Generally I prefer the longbow for my trap-unload-swap routine, but if I know it’s a protracted run-n-gun I’ll drop in my shortbow instead.

The groupthink here is that rangers suck, anyone who tries to post anything else, even discuss traits, builds etc. – anything other than the kitten shortbow autoattack – is flamed down with a bunch of whining about how we can’t run around spamming the auto attack on one weapon. I can understand why the OP is frustrated that our forum is no longer a discussion, but rather just a big self-pity QQ fest.

PvE – IMO, yes including dungeons, the groupthink is plain wrong. We are a very strong, versatile class against AI. I’m a fairly casual player and I was able to get map completion in all three zones in Orr, running solo, equipped mostly in blues or greens, with few defeats. I received a couple of guild invites specifically because of my combat performance helping out with difficult pulls. I don’t get to run dungeons often, but I have been part of a team that has completed AC, CM, TA and SE story mode on the first attempt each time. With ranged dps, useful cc, combo fields and high survivability along with the pets (control+buff from the fern hound, heals+buff from the moa) everyone feels my position in the group is more than valid.

I think the PvPers may have a point, a good one, as 1v1 – which 5v5 boils down to a lot – is about movement, burst damage and condition removal. Most classes are strong in two of those three, warriors get all three and rangers are only good at one.

I’m not even gonna begin to argue with you on this topic because that’s pointless, but I thought I would help you get your facts straight. We are not 1 of 2 classes in the game with a frost field. I know AT LEAST Engie, Elementalist, and Ranger can make those combos. Also, swoop has an 1100 range not 1200. Lastly, Spirits aren’t WEAK, they’re USELESS. A single trash mob in a 1-15 zone is capable of 1-shotting a lvl 80 spirit traited for more health.

Fate.8673:

@Kharza: I actually play a Thief as well, its my first alt, and I use it to PvP regularly.

.. snip

First off thanks for the constructive dialog at least.. not enough of that happens around here anymore.

Ok let’s try this.. throw everything else out of the window and let’s just focus on the class specific skill. To me that is one of the defining things of a particular class. In the rangers case it isn’t so much the pet as it is the pet’s F2 ability. If we compare this particular skill to any other class this is where the core issues with the ranger lie.

Story Time

Once upon a time in a massive battle assaulting a tower I sat there shooting my bow at the gate while we pounded it down with a ram and my trusty brown bear “Yogi” was at my side (on passive). Egads I said as I realized the enemy was in the middle of flanking the group and a particularly ugly necro had decided to make condition soup out of my ranger. I was oh so confident in my trusty bear that I knew I could just “Shake it Off” and continue to whirl around and assault the savage necro with my trusty short bow. Much to my dismay upon clicking the handy ranger class specific button I was in wonder when my trusty bear Yogi didn’t immediately “Shake it Off” but instead decided he wanted a piece of that Tower Door as well. Yogi rumbled and stumbled all the way to the front door at which point he decided now was the time to “Shake it Off” for all the allies around him.. save me and the 10982903 conditions that I had on me.

This is what my problem is.. I hit steal.. it works.. I hit attunement swap.. it works… I hit Stealth on my Jaguar.. it works 98% of the time. I don’t think anyone here would disagree with me when I say 90% of the F2 pet class defining abilities just don’t work when you want them to.. or really need them. No other class in GW2 has a class defining mechanic as broke as rangers. This should pretty much end the conversation.. except then you can go look at all the other bugs in the list and it is death by 1000 pricks. I want the ranger to work.. I really do.. except I also want to win, be the best benefit I can be to my WvW guild and in that case.. my talents are better off leveraged playing a thief right now.

High mobility and strong control

Thieves can:
-jump back 3 times in a row
-cripple is inbound to this dodge

/Pistols
-60% chance to apply cripple @crit

“Lighting Reflexes” vs “Roll for initiative”
Elan vs
1 &1/2 extra (dodges+cripples) (Bow)

Additionally:
-Cripples enemies upon each (normal) dodge.
-Thieves regain endure after each dodge
-Attacking a target with less than 50% life causes 4 seconds of immobilize

Possible Thief-utility slots:
-4* Chill (1s/each)
-3* Root (2s/each)
—————————————————————————————
Trapp discussion:

Thief trap:
1.) 3s knockdown +5s cripple
2.) 3s root

Ranger trap:
1.) 6s cripple
2.)3s chill
—————————————————————————————————-

I don’t want to start a fight, but in my eyes Thieves are far superior at movement &movement control.

We’re on the same side I guess, we all do love Rangers.
Even though I love my Ranger I’m not getting blinded by this love.
I am open eyed to the problem (s)he has which currently defined best by being outclassed in basically any aspect.
-Movement
-Damage
-Crowd control

The only section were Rangers currently shine is AoE-Condition spamm (If you’re ok with sacrificing 3 utility slots for it).
Sadly you can also take a Necro for that.
————————————————————————————————————————-
E/:

[…]
one thing my ranger is awesome for though in WvWvW is that it runs away faster and better than most classes… except mesmers and thiefs.

Don’t forget Warriors (perma swiftness signet+horn) and Eles (air-traitline).

I want my ranger to work too Kharza. Pet F2 times should be instant and responsive, the devs released a patch changing it so F2 overrides the pets current ability so that they STOP and START the F2. If this is still not working it is a BUG, again a bug not “underpowered” or something wrong with our class design wise.

@Dante: Thieves do damage, yes, and they have a pretty good ranged kit in their Short bow. But its not quite as long range as we can get. And try “spamming” cluster bombs from 900 range, it doesnt work. Dancing Dagger is the same. Thieves are still glass. Sure they can burn initiative to get away from a fight with their SB 3 to get away and you can argue their ranged kiting is superior to ours with withdraw and roll for initiative. But neither of those are stun breaks, so if you lock down a thief force him and throw some conditions on him watch him burn. The single target on SB isn’t superior to our Single target ranged burst either.

I’ve stated that Warriors trump us in terms of AoE control. Rifle butt is a melee ability. If you can line up 3 people in melee-and not be dead- to Rifle butt them then by all means.

Also the thing with Ranger long bow is… yes the Longbow 1 isn’t the most damage out there. But at 1500 potential range it is safe damage. Nothings touching you 1500 range away. And why sit there and spam it? 20% Reduced CD on SB and LB I never even have to touch LB auto attack. If I want to stay safe and wait for heal CDs? I’ll be putting out some damage as well, some, not “omgwtf” damage. Now, I DO miss SB auto like everyone else. I feel like that really gutted our “if we flank you and hit QZ, you die” that should definitely be an option for our class. Because we can flank with our mobility, and should be rewarded with it.

Rangers and Duelign 1v1
This is something I’ve been seeing a lot of. We are “weak” in 1v1. I think that the opposite is true. I think we can be extremely strong in 1v1 with you know our pet making it 2v1 and all our free dodges. I think that the majority of the player base hasn’t mastered evasion, knowing other classes and when to dodge the combo they are trying to set-up. Myself including, I’m no “ranger guru” I’ve gotten bursted down by 100B warriors because I failed to dodge it or take LR my share of times, but I realize that’s on ME to improve, not on ANET to buff my class.

Our tools are there, we need to learn how to use them effectively, not whine when they aren’t simple to learn or use.

@Sdric: See above post for difference in kiting potential, also our traps are MUCH larger when traited and can be THROWN from range and much more responsive. Anyone running head first into a thief trap certainly deserves a 3s knockdown.

@Fate:

• Longbow @ 1500: except when I just rapidly strafe back and forth and none of your arrows hit

• F2 doesn’t work and hasn’t ever worked right.. that story is from a week ago don’t believe the patch notes..

• Thieves aren’t as squishy as you believe though.. Blood Storm or Venom Share can go toe to toe with a ranger and Venom Share wrecks a ranger (our huge lack of reliable condition removal)

Hey man I’m not saying we can’t win.. and I win my fair share of fights by being an experienced PvPer and knowing my class and the class I’m fighting, but the chips are stacked against us. There are viable builds.. the problem is there are few of them. This really isn’t class envy either because my problem is that since I started a ranger in BWE the amount of available builds that are viable in sPvP and WvW (all I care about btw) have gone down drastically. The core class mechanics don’t function as well as the other classes and to that I’m allowed to say hey Anet what gives here.

Oh yeah.. the only thing reliable about a ranger pet? Being a perfect target for CnD!

Fate, and what can you offer in addition to trap build? Or at least, instead of?
If I like the variation. For example at the necromancer I like ALL abilities. And sorry that I can only select 3. I invented up at least 18 different builds, I matured to play comfortably in any situation. And some for specific situations (for some bosses for example).
And for the ranger I can called normal…. only… well.. 3 =/. Moreover, two of them with using ground traps.
Don’t u think it’s a little… unfairly, to deny problems of class, which only have 3(!) good skills, which are, plus to this, becoming good only with two traits?….

I guess you do not really understand what you are trying to convey to the members of this forum…

I’m pleased that the OP acknowledges the unacceptable nature of the nerf to the SB Crossfire & QZ skills. Though he tactfully avoids mentioning Anets’ utter lack of integrity regarding the issue.

I agree with the OP that many of the bugs with the Ranger profession will (probably) be dealt with in time and that some patience is required.

However,

I cannot agree with the OP that the current problems with the Ranger profession are down to large numbers of players “doing it wrong” or that he has any special insight on how to play the Ranger Profession “properly.”

All players regardless of ability (or lack thereof) are constrained by having to operate within the skills and trait framework provided by Anet/the Devs.

The problem is that the existing skills and trait framework are the direct result of poor design, implementation and subsequent modification/updates by the devs.

I do not agree with the OP’s claim that Rangers are “experts” at control, mobility and support. Perhaps we should be? But currently… not.

I am also unable to concur with the OP’s conclusions. According to Anet;

“Unparalleled archers, rangers are capable of bringing down foes from a distance with their bows. "

Unparalleled archers? Hardly!

Bringing down foes from a distance with their bows? How? Oh yes… that would be via dealing damage to the target. A concept that the OP seems to think is beyond the remit of the Ranger profession and best left to others.

The OP’s post is simply another thread attempting to shift responsibility for the current state of the Ranger profession in GW2 from the devs/Anet to the players and their perceived failure to play the profession in the way in which the OP believes it is meant to be played.

I thought that we were meant to be able to play any profession in GW2 our way!

I conclude that the problem lies with the poor design of the Ranger profession rather than with us the players.

nic.5720:

.. snip

I am also unable to concur with the OP’s conclusions. According to Anet;

“Unparalleled archers, rangers are capable of bringing down foes from a distance with their bows. "

Unparalleled archers? Hardly!

Bringing down foes from a distance with their bows? How? Oh yes… that would be via dealing damage to the target. A concept that the OP seems to think is beyond the remit of the Ranger profession and best left to others.

The OP’s post is simply another thread attempting to shift responsibility for the current state of the Ranger profession in GW2 from the devs/Anet to the players and their perceived failure to play the profession in the way in which the OP believes it is meant to be played.

I thought that we were meant to be able to play any profession in GW2 our way!

I conclude that the problem lies with the poor design of the Ranger profession rather than with us the players.

Very well stated.. kudos

There are a variety of ways to play the rangers, and I get where the OP is coming from. It’s not that your doing it wrong, but maybe you haven’t found the right way.

There are builds and guides out there, and I have been very generous and sharing my builds with anyone who’ll listen.

I have two builds that I genuinely love that can be adapted for PvE or PvP. My first is a

30/0/10/30/0 build. I call this my ultimate power build. It’s straight up power and vitality, with the trait that gives 5% vit as a bonus to power. So are you become more durable, you also gain more power. The top trait in the marksman tree is signet of beastmastery, which allows for active effects of signets to also affect you. This is especially good in sPvP but again, with a change in utilities, you can convert this to PvE.

I also have a trap build that focuses on spreading the ‘condition’ love. WIth a 30 point peak in skirmishing to make your traps last longer and do more damage, you can’t really go wrong. Traps are far more viable than one thinks.

I also have a ‘tank’ type build that utilizes the GS and focuses on staying alive. I am currently revisiting it, now that I know TONS more about the ranger, and the use of combo fields, I need to readjust the traits to make up for it.

There are plenty of viable builds out there, and while QZ/crossfire spam has been nerfed, realize that QZ is better paired with GS or longsword for best burst potential. The only reason QZ and crossfire was considered OP was because we could remain at range and do this, while thieves and warriors had to get in close.

SOrry fate but while 1500 range seems nice, its really not as far as it should be. Melee has so many ways to close gaps with rangers have little to get away. Longbow needs more damage, people need to fear being hit by it and not just loltank it while they pound us into the dirt. Yea thief shortbow does more damage than any ranger bow, plain and simple, put it this way, by the time you get a full barrage off he can get 2-3 clusters off each hitting for 4-5k. Thats about 8k more damage than barrage. Sure longbow and shortbow have longer range than thieves shortbow but how long does a pvper stay at range, besides the fact that our arrows are always obstructed at range.

Caltrops has massive radius and long duration, we get traps that last for a few secs except muddy terrain, which needs to root every 5 seconds and act like a pulse. and lets not forget thieves can infiltrator arrow away when kitten hits the fan, we get ummm, point blank shot. And if that thief gets caught, spam number 3 and evade while crippling. Sure we get pets, but if they are moving pets cant hit, then they run past the target and gotta backtrack, ect…

I agree with OP that rangers are kings of control. It is just that other then control, what can we do, that is not sub-par with others? DPS is really really really bad, if you spec for control, seriously. And if you spec dps, forget about control

Control = Traps. That to me is the only viable build in which we shine. I use Spikes, Froze & Entangle alot and they are great. But after we stun them… then what? Currently we poke them with thin needles in prolong fights that is 111111111, dodge, 111111 dodge 111111 dodge (repeat) …….

To me, rangers are not that hard to fix, but Anet is not doing so yet. If they would have left us alone, it would not be so sad. But the first big thing they did, was nerf our only ok dps weapon. Which has triggered this rage switch.

Lastly, I agree that pets attacks cannot be 100% hit, but at least make pets F2 instant and increase their attack speed and hit area.

I find it stupid that enemies/pvpers can hit us, way more often even if we dodge (aka large hit area), while pets have such a tiny hit area and miss if enemy move even 1mm away.

MeGaZlo.9516:

Fate, and what can you offer in addition to trap build? Or at least, instead of?
If I like the variation. For example at the necromancer I like ALL abilities. And sorry that I can only select 3. I invented up at least 18 different builds, I matured to play comfortably in any situation. And some for specific situations (for some bosses for example).
And for the ranger I can called normal…. only… well.. 3 =/. Moreover, two of them with using ground traps.
Don’t u think it’s a little… unfairly, to deny problems of class, which only have 3(!) good skills, which are, plus to this, becoming good only with two traits?….

I guess you do not really understand what you are trying to convey to the members of this forum…

I can think of a few other builds that work, maybe 4 or 5.

But you’re right, and you have me here.

We really don’t have the most diverse utility skills, pretty much just:
Signets
Pet shouts
Traps
Survival
Spirits (Currently unviable and underwhelming)

But that’s really just the fact that Spirits being unusable reduced all combinations of traits, utilties, and weapons by 20% which makes us seem a lot less flexible than other classes.

This is one point I WILL concede about the rangers in comparison to some of the other classes, not all our specs are viable.

@Fate "But at 1500 potential range it is safe damage. Nothings touching you 1500 range away. "

Warriors have 1500 range also, but better damage.

Ranger need BIG fixes to be playable, people that argue about that cant have tried other classes.
Then understand that Arenanet fixed a glitch on the shortbow that no one had seen except them before they they did anything in the list bellow.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Ranger-Bug-List/first

@Nic: You’re going to nitpick semantics on the class description page? Really?

Look, I’m taking what ANET has given me, the ranger’s ENTIRE kit, and come to a conclusion on what it is best at. You are forcing a one line description-one word OUT OF CONTEXT mind you-from the GW2 homepage and saying that Devs called us unparalled so all other ranged options for other classes should suck compared to us?

Are our melee options supposed to suffer for this “ranged king” idea you want? What if I want to play a melee class with a pet?

There is another line you left out:
" rangers can adapt to any situation."

Which is what I believe, and plenty others in this thread have posted, they see as the true design of the ranger. Adapters, controllers, all around well balanced in skirmishing a fight.

You can play your class however you want. If you want to play a Ranged dps that doesn’t rely on pet dps to be effective then you will have to suffer with our current numbers. Because our longbow DOES hurt. Opening Strike+LB 3= 15% damage increase.
Flanking? 10%
Endurance full? 10%
+sigils, might, fury from warhorn, etc.

That rapid fire if quicknessed HURTS. ALONE. That’s NOT including the dps increase we have from our PET that other classes don’t.

It seems to me like you want our RANGED WEAPONS by themselves to be MORE DAMAGING than others. This will not happen because our class-specific tool is so strong, because it is another dps source. Our pet is taken into account for our dps.

“But Fate in PvE my pet gets melted.”

Are you using a Bear? Spiders/Devourers? My pets in PvE kitten face. In dungeons? I’m forced to switch it up to accommodate. Bears/Birds+16 sec swap time allows them to live through most fight when microd. There are some fights they will not live, just as there are fights whether other classes abilities can not be utilized 100%

“Well in PvP my pet gets kited”
Well what are you doing while they kite your pet? They have to kite TWO damage sources, and that can be overwhelming especially if you add in a teamfight. I already went over how you need to be able to lockdown targets for your pet as well and be mindful of its positioning.

Fate-

I don’t think anyone would be complaining about dps if our pets hit while moving and didn’t bug out.

Thats what your not understanding our profession is largely broken. Its not that people don’t know how to play its that your FORCED to play without relying on your pet as part of your dps because of the way it functions currently.

Anyone in pvp thats worth beating wont stand still for your pet to dps them…. nor will they be immobile long enough for your pet to beat on them even if you try to stop them.

Thats what your not getting.

People started trying to make their rangers dps with no pet because really the pet is worthless in many pvp situations, which means you dont have that added dps.

Take a look from different perspectives. People are annoyed by a great number of things with this profession and all them added up does make us rather hard to pvp with, compared to other class’s. We have lower solo dps, because of our pet…. thats fine IF our pet actually did its job and could keep up with people kiting it….. but it cant.

I understand people are upset and annoyed at our bugs. But they are taking it out ineffectively.

Posting here every single day that our class has many bugs won’t get them to be fixed any faster.

Any player worth their salt won’t get hit by anything, I don’t understand the point you are trying to make.

It is difficult to get our maximum dps off because we have to cc for our pets to do consistent damage, yet. You know that Spiders immobilize right? You know that Cats and Dogs have leaps, with the dogs having a leap KD right? These are gap closers, these can be chained with your own CC. There are ways and, once again we have the TOOLS to be viable and effective in PvP and PvE.

What I see ankittenrying to reduce are the people who used rangers solely for their burst SB dps spec, coming to our forums because this was nerfed/bugged and crying “WELL EVERYTHING ELSE KITTEN SUCKS RANGERS ARE BROKEN.”

No. Everything else does NOT suck. Is SB our highest single target dps/burst build? From range, YES, it is. And once the QZ bug is fixed I’m sure it will remain viable. But for the MEANtime people are leaving the class because they are inflexible or unable to see how other builds for the ranger work. And I’m saying “have fun with warrior” OR “if you want to stay, consider this as a our class’ strength. Or discuss with me why not.”

I don’t think pets are broken. I think pets are fine with minor tweaks such as F2 cast time and dungeon survivability.

I DON"T want to play in a game where pets with 30%+swiftness movement speed that can keep up with me while I strafe/dodge and stick on me while ANOTHER person is raining hell on me or Meleeing me and shooting traps on me exists. This will make rangers OVERPOWERED and will either result in a nerf to all our dps across the board or pets dps. This will destroy our PvE solo game which many people are in love with.

Pets are NOT going to be able to attack while moving, I’m saving this prediction in stone right now. You’re not going to see it happen, so if you can’t live with the way pets function (as opposed to possible tweak, I mean their base functioning), then you are being lazy (aka "I just want free dps I don’t have to micro or think about!) or not in the right class.

That’s enough for one day though, good night.