Guild Wars 2

Forum bug where you can’t see the last message when transitioning to the next page (and this message is to correct it).

The thread started off wanting to Compare Rapid Fire to other Burst skills. Someone pointed out that its reasonable to compare to the similar ranged skill Volley. Then someone else pointed out that we should compare the merits of both weapons. Now its better to not compare either weapon at all because of the different play styles and should instead compare Mesmer GS or Ele Staff, which are also different play styles?

That’s aneurism inducing!

Jim Hunter.6821:

Your analysis is all personal opinion. A full zerk rifle warrior will be a lot less glassy than a full zerk ranger.
Fast hands and GS allows them to reposition and get right back in the action a lot more easily than a ranger can.
Warriors have a utility to make their shots unlockable.
Rangers LB burst is entirely rapid fire. Warrior had volley and kill shot.

I’m not trying to argue that rifle warrior is a great build but a group of yolo rifle warriors would be just as devastating as a group of baby rangers.

Of course they are both a total joke in a 1v1 fight.

And your analysis isn’t personal opinion? Saying ‘Kill Shot’ after my post before last, as if its supposed to end the argument, is your personal opinion. You keep on emphasizing Burst in your posts as if its all that matters, which is also your personal opinion.

Forums are all about personal opinion. Don’t try to take that out, because it wont work.

Fluffball.8307:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Of course they are both a total joke in a 1v1 fight.

I ran solo LB for ages before the buff (or was “they” referring to baby rangers?)

It’s probably a lot harder to get away with now. Before the latest update many people didn’t know: 1) we had a short CD stealth on LB, 2) what RF even did, 3) were only vaguely aware of what PBS did, 4) thought LB didn’t hit hard, 5) weren’t aware we could chain a whole lot of CC to keep LB hitting hard from range, 6) we had lots of defensive options up close.

I swear 99% of my kills on my WvW panel are from people not even knowing that rangers were allowed to play GW2. Now we change a single skill and everyone is studying every nuance of how to kill rangers. I’ve even seen posts by people going on about how dangerous barrage is, when a few weeks ago barrage apparently didn’t do any damage at all.

Still getting kills in WvW all the time as a Glass Longbow, and while I do screw around sometimes with other builds, I mainly use Longbow.

Got thousands of kills pre-patch, and will continue to get thousands of kills in the years to come.

@Chrispy;

It’s still completely valid to compare it to Volley as far as function versus function is concerned. But doing so apparently invited in the idea that it should be a comparison that ignores all other variables and factors, which we all know isn’t how the game is balanced or designed.

For a small example of what I mean, Longbow is designed directly around using Rapid Fire as it’s big damage option. There is no setup for the skill, there is no skill rotation, it is 100% a one trick pony, cut to the chase weapon. Warrior Rifle, on the other hand, is designed around a damage rotation. Volley, while contributing to the weapons damage output, isn’t designed to be the weapons only burst skill with the existence of Kill Shot, and Volley is designed more to function as sustainable damage while the Rifle builds adrenaline to go for a Kill Shot.

The weapons goals are very different by design, and while comparing Volley to Rapid Fire is significant, it shouldn’t be an “if and only if” type argument where A is balanced if and only if it is equal to B when the goals of both skills for their respective weapon sets as a whole don’t align.

Which is exactly why I suggested more comparisons. If we take a look at more similarly functioning ranged weapons, we will actually be able to have a logical discussion about this while looking at all the factors at a time instead of the whole thread be about taking each unique element and making a final decision in a vacuum without looking at the whole picture.

Alright, here’s my math to compare against Chrispy’s. I would appreciate someone double check it since we have 2 people quoting 30%. The largest error I found with Chrispy’s math is he’s ignoring Rifle has higher average weapon strength I believe?

Rapid Fire
3.75 Coefficient * 3000 Power * 1050 Strength / 2600 Armor = 4,543.27 damage
Considering the stacking vulnerability (.01+.02+…+.10/10):
4543.27 * 1.045 = 4,747.72 damage

Volley
3.0 Coefficient * 3000 Power * 1150 Strength / 2600 Armor = 3,980.77 damage
Considering Brutal Shot vulnerability:
3980.77 * 1.08 = 4,299.23 damage

This means if you use both vulnerabilities, the gap is only 10.43% different.

If you use only the Ranger’s vuln, it’s 19.27% better.

If you use no vulns, Rapid Fire is 14.13% stronger.

Keep in mind that these values are before traits.

Just my humble oppinion on the whole stealth issue : Im sorry but if say any other class hit a thief with one skill the damage is done and if you stealth then its already too late now the same apply to rapid fire its one skill so if you decide to go into stealth when the skill was already in progress same rule apply its too late. Now if you play properly and your timing is right then you will go into stealth before the skill is used and so avoid damage in both scenarios

Your math is correct. I didn’t want to complicate the math and I knew the weapon damage were slightly different for each weapon, but I didn’t know that the Rifle had 100 more average damage than Longbow, making the Rifle by itself almost 10% stronger before anything else is calculated, which would drop that 30% stronger number I gave, down to about what you have (19.27%)

Atherakhia.4086:

Alright, here’s my math to compare against Chrispy’s. I would appreciate someone double check it since we have 2 people quoting 30%. The largest error I found with Chrispy’s math is he’s ignoring Rifle has higher average weapon strength I believe?

Ah ha. I suspected something like that, but couldn’t find rifle weapon stats online, and haven’t had time to hop into the game. I’d been holding off posting until I could confirm, but then this topic came up.

Rapid Fire
3.75 Coefficient * 3000 Power * 1050 Strength / 2600 Armor = 4,543.27 damage
Considering the stacking vulnerability (.01+.02+…+.10/10):
4543.27 * 1.045 = 4,747.72 damage

Volley
3.0 Coefficient * 3000 Power * 1150 Strength / 2600 Armor = 3,980.77 damage
Considering Brutal Shot vulnerability:
3980.77 * 1.08 = 4,299.23 damage

You left out the 5 extra vulnerability from ranger Opening Strike. Technically that’s a trait, but it’s pretty much a given with any ranger build except bunker BM.

God instead of crying for a whatever nerf just bring this one
Change. It. Back.
Problem solved? Maybe
People will still see some power ranger but qq people love to qq. When qq people cant find something to qq because the qq lead to the desired nerf then we have some possibilities:
1) qq people see they cant qq anymore on x class and continue to qq on y class
2) qq people get a nerf for the said qq theme but they get still be outplayed because some player who played, for example pewpew power ranger long before it was the new “ohmagawdsoOPwhatanoobclass” and continue to qq. Its just a qq people thing u understand?
3) qq people are pleased and stop being qq people and start playing the game instead of forum.

Haha just joking
3) will never happen

Change RF back or make it a 3,Xs cast

In truth, vulnerability should probably be left out of the equation entirely simply because it’s a global condition. Openning Strikes in particular is going to be applied unreliably since you must exit combat to reset it (unless you take Remorseless which I’m confident very few people actually use). Do you agree?

Leave my rapid alone——end of converstion. ANET don’t even listen to a player(s) that want it nerfed.

You guys keep shouting for a RF nerf yet you don’t heed all the rebuttals given. There are several arguments against such a nerf. For the sake of debate, please list the reasons why Rapid Fire is OP and needs to be nerfed. Later, I will address them for you personally.

To OP the difference in the skills you are trying to compare is one can be done via stealth which is one of the best defensive abilities in game, while the other can be done via range where you can still be targetted/CC’ed, and fully viewed making it easy to figure out when you should dodge/block/reflect.

This goes back to old school zerk warriors who use to run 100 blades + bull rush combos…same people complaining about it and its working as intended, with multiple counters.

Find it funny no one complains about the instant 10 stacks of invuln and only whines about the dmg lol (with traits you can bump it up to 20 stacks with opening strikes lol)

Razor.9872:

You guys keep shouting for a RF nerf yet you don’t heed all the rebuttals given. There are several arguments against such a nerf. For the sake of debate, please list the reasons why Rapid Fire is OP and needs to be nerfed. Later, I will address them for you personally.

Did you even read the thread? Doesn’t sound like you did.

Tricare.2946:

Reading all of your previous posts, you clearly have much to learn.

Chrispy.5641:

Razor.9872:

You guys keep shouting for a RF nerf yet you don’t heed all the rebuttals given. There are several arguments against such a nerf. For the sake of debate, please list the reasons why Rapid Fire is OP and needs to be nerfed. Later, I will address them for you personally.

Did you even read the thread? Doesn’t sound like you did.

Notice how you avoid the question. Yes, I did. Now that that is out of the way, can someone (hopefully you) please answer the question.

You probably won’t get an answer. There is a ton of thread with this debate. Every time someone makes a counter-argument, the people for the ban wil say something like “yes but it’s range, so it should be weaker”. And what are you going to say against it? Yes, it’s ranged, even if there is absolutely no reason it should be much weaker than melee.

Honestly, all of this turned into a non-argument rage against the LB ranger. It’s not even that powerful, what annoys most people is the very concept of high ranged damage. I am sure that, even if they reverted rapid fire to a simple utility, some people would still whine because “Long range shot deals too much damage!”. And we all know how good was the LB ranger pre-patch.

In the end, it’s a sterile debate, one side wants ranged dps to be non existent, the other wants it to be viable. Different perspectives for different tastes.

Razor.9872:

Chrispy.5641:

Razor.9872:

You guys keep shouting for a RF nerf yet you don’t heed all the rebuttals given. There are several arguments against such a nerf. For the sake of debate, please list the reasons why Rapid Fire is OP and needs to be nerfed. Later, I will address them for you personally.

Did you even read the thread? Doesn’t sound like you did.

Notice how you avoid the question. Yes, I did. Now that that is out of the way, can someone (hopefully you) please answer the question.

So, since you read this thread, whose calling for a Rapid Fire Nerf? It isn’t me, nor is it the last 15 people that posted. Are you sure you read the thread? It still doesn’t sound like you did.

I have no problem with Rapid Fire being as strong as it is, so change your question, because there’s no reason for me to answer it.

Chrispy.5641:

Razor.9872:

Chrispy.5641:

Razor.9872:

You guys keep shouting for a RF nerf yet you don’t heed all the rebuttals given. There are several arguments against such a nerf. For the sake of debate, please list the reasons why Rapid Fire is OP and needs to be nerfed. Later, I will address them for you personally.

Did you even read the thread? Doesn’t sound like you did.

Notice how you avoid the question. Yes, I did. Now that that is out of the way, can someone (hopefully you) please answer the question.

So, since you read this thread, whose calling for a Rapid Fire Nerf? It isn’t me, nor is it the last 15 people that posted. Are you sure you read the thread? It still doesn’t sound like you did.

I have no problem with Rapid Fire being as strong as it is, so change your question, because there’s no reason for me to answer it.

My apologies, when I addressed “you guys” I was referring to Skeletor and Snow (the people where were advocating for nerfs).

FrouFrou.4958:

Why wasn’t RF a problem prior to the patch then? You needed 2 dodges instead of 1, it followed you to stealth and it hit as hard as it does now. The range has been the same since launch as well.

It was a problem back then too.

First of comparing anything to a thief skill is just a no no. Thief is so different it shouldn’t even be called a profession, its that serious. And with the recent changes rapid fire almost requires a good cc against any good players. And the cool down is just long enough for you to come up with a counter for it again on the next burst.

When playing this game by all means don’t just face roll and dump out all your damage and utilities. Actually pay attention to cool downs and the utilities your enemies use. Learn their combos. If its all random looking they are face rolling it. At that point just wait the burst out and then its your turn. If they are not face rolling it, you have an even better chance at out playing the enemy as most of these players use the same rotations over and over. Only good players have many different rotations to use. And these players are the hardest and best fights you will ever have in this game. Its also why thief is so hated because they have unlimited options to rotations, which boasts a pretty high skill cap. All in all L2P, we are all still learning our craft and if you really want to be good at this game, play all the professions and learn the strengths and weaknesses of every build.