Like many of you, I’ve switched to using the Raven for my burst dps pet. And it’s pretty amazing.
But I’d been using the Eagle as my off pet, and what I’d started to notice while fighting, either in WvW or PvE, is that I preferred using my Eagle, to my Raven.
What, you may ask? But the damage is inferior!
It is. But what isn’t inferior, is the cooldown difference on their F2s. With Beastmastery reduction traits, the Raven’s is up every 15 or so seconds, the. Eagle’s is up every 4. That’s right, you can use the Eagle’s F2, which still HURTS, especially if you grab the 30% more pet crit damage trait, twice definitely, and possibly even 3 times within the span of time you’d be waiting for Raven to be ready. Which is more useful? Less burst more often or more burst less often?
I don’t have numbers because I’m posting from a phone while lying in bed, lol, but you numbers people can feel free to crunch Raven vs. Eagle F2 output within the span of the Raven cooldown. Keep in mind that Eagle also applies 2 stacks of bleed, for what that’s worth.
But I’ve already made my decision. I went out and got a Hawk from Iron Marches, which I’d been missing, and is identical to Eagle in terms of attack, and I’m using 2x that lovely short cooldown Lacerating Slash.
PVE wise, Eagle does more damage
PvP Wise, Raven is better, followed by Owl
Raven’s Ability hits the hardest, and applies a blind…. Owls hits slightly harder then Eagles and applies a Chill.
If you’re swapping birds in combat with the AOE vigor Talent then you generally want to open with Owl Followed by switching over to Raven and F2ing…
Then is a large amount of burst you can land on someone very quickly.
The Bleed from the Eagle Attack is mediocre but it does more DPS then The other two by far…..So use it in PVE, use the others for PvP.
Jaguar is also a good pick for PVE.
Your point is only valid if the pet lives long enough to apply a second or third attack. In PvP, this is rarely the case. Raven provides great burst damage and a blind. Birds are kinda bad anyway. Make a bunker build and pull out a cat if you want to be a decent ranger in PvP. However, in PvE, I agree with you. The raven will tank better for you than the eagle, so some may take it for that reason.
Your point is only valid if the pet lives long enough to apply a second or third attack. In PvP, this is rarely the case. Raven provides great burst damage and a blind. Birds are kinda bad anyway. Make a bunker build and pull out a cat if you want to be a decent ranger in PvP. However, in PvE, I agree with you. The raven will tank better for you than the eagle, so some may take it for that reason.
Ummm, birds have same stats as cats but more vitality. So Id say cats die more easily.
As too the OP, I tested both awhile back when I found the joy of raven. And while I came to the like minded opinion that eagles f2 cd is much better than ravens, the damage isnt worth it for certain builds. I do hope they lower the cd on ravens f2 but Im happy with it. As a full glass cannon build my eagle hits the light armored target golem ( which is really medium ) 2200+2200 on his f2 and applies the bleed which I dont add since its so minute its not even noticeable in pvp. My raven hits the same target for about 3400+3400, and if I use signet of the wild that goes up to 4500 twice or 5k twice. Currently tho Ive decided to use signet of the hunt, shorter cd, same damage increase, makes my ravens f2 attack hit for 3400+5600.
So it comes down to build and playstyle, if you are running a sustained damage styled build go with eagle imo, raven is better with mine because burst, and add in sig of the hunt for the signet spike it becomes deadly. There are many times my pet chased someone low on health behind a wall where my longbow wont reach only to double tap them for 7-9k and down them, much to their surprise. Im more than willing to share my build if any1 is curious but honestly, find your own playstyle, and you will make your own build. But wait till after the buffs, that way you have a better understanding of what is viable and what isnt.
I agree with the above poster. I’m finally getting used to using pets and all, but right now any theory crafting we do might be pointless with the pending updates.
PVE wise, Eagle does more damage
PvP Wise, Raven is better, followed by Owl
Raven’s Ability hits the hardest, and applies a blind…. Owls hits slightly harder then Eagles and applies a Chill.
If you’re swapping birds in combat with the AOE vigor Talent then you generally want to open with Owl Followed by switching over to Raven and F2ing…
Then is a large amount of burst you can land on someone very quickly.
The Bleed from the Eagle Attack is mediocre but it does more DPS then The other two by far…..So use it in PVE, use the others for PvP.
Jaguar is also a good pick for PVE.
For the crit build I’m still finding Jaguar to be best damage. Mine hits on average for 1.4-1.5k and often crits for 2k. This is PvE btw. I rarely use pets in WvW unless I’m in a 1v1 fight.
Ummm, birds have same stats as cats but more vitality. So Id say cats die more easily
Jaguar has best threat drop. I use it’s stealth all the time. Easiest dps pet to keep alive if you ask me.
(edited by krojack.4920)
Yea, jags stealth is sweet, but its still only for 6 secs, and when jag stealths mob runs at you, and for some silly kitten reason jag cant hit moving targets so that stealth while dropping mobs attention on your lap also lowers your dps unless you are in melee range. The stealth of a jag is only useful when used on a ranged mob, or a mob in melee range, or an envent boss who is attacking someone else. Then again that event mob will 1 shot your pet either way. Dont get me wrong, I love the jag, goes stelath and gains 25% crit damage, send him to attack a player and watch him do 5-6k on his double strike.
Sadly ravens damage is still better, my raven averages 2k on each attack since it double strikes, it does 1000 twice, and then it has a big swoop attack that hits for almost 3.5k and then my f2 which is the 7-9k damage skill. Atm imo raven is the best dps pet, but the animations cause some issues for efficiency atleast in pvp. In pve I lvled too 65 using wolves, I did not know the power of the jag or raven at the time. Now I do, and taming them is quite easy too.
I actually have used all the bird pets and i must say i prefer the eagle/hawk. that fast recharge rate plus the added bleeding is too good to pass up imo. sure the raven hits harder in 1 attack and inflicts blind but the eagle/hawk can actually stack his attacks to help apply more bleeding to the targets.
Like I said, its preference, I prefere the burst, I like seeing my pet chase someone and smack them for 9k and blind them but who knows, I might give eagle a shot and see how it is. The bleed isnt noticeable since every1 brings condi removal, but having a 4 1/2 sec 4k hit might be nicer than a 14 1/2 sec 7k hit. Once this ban is up Ill give it a shot.
PVE wise, Eagle does more damage
PvP Wise, Raven is better, followed by Owl
Raven’s Ability hits the hardest, and applies a blind…. Owls hits slightly harder then Eagles and applies a Chill.
If you’re swapping birds in combat with the AOE vigor Talent then you generally want to open with Owl Followed by switching over to Raven and F2ing…
Then is a large amount of burst you can land on someone very quickly.
The Bleed from the Eagle Attack is mediocre but it does more DPS then The other two by far…..So use it in PVE, use the others for PvP.
Jaguar is also a good pick for PVE.
For the crit build I’m still finding Jaguar to be best damage. Mine hits on average for 1.4-1.5k and often crits for 2k. This is PvE btw. I rarely use pets in WvW unless I’m in a 1v1 fight.
Ummm, birds have same stats as cats but more vitality. So Id say cats die more easily
Jaguar has best threat drop. I use it’s stealth all the time. Easiest dps pet to keep alive if you ask me.
I’ve felt that Jaguar does more damage then Eagle, I know what the Eagle says its Precision is, but I always felt that Jag actually crit more often then Eagle, and that’s not taking into account the F2 Ability.
The f2 ability is by the way, an awesome threat drop and super damage increase ability..Just good all around period.
Probably the best F2 in the game
PVE wise, Eagle does more damage
PvP Wise, Raven is better, followed by Owl
Raven’s Ability hits the hardest, and applies a blind…. Owls hits slightly harder then Eagles and applies a Chill.
If you’re swapping birds in combat with the AOE vigor Talent then you generally want to open with Owl Followed by switching over to Raven and F2ing…
Then is a large amount of burst you can land on someone very quickly.
The Bleed from the Eagle Attack is mediocre but it does more DPS then The other two by far…..So use it in PVE, use the others for PvP.
Jaguar is also a good pick for PVE.
For the crit build I’m still finding Jaguar to be best damage. Mine hits on average for 1.4-1.5k and often crits for 2k. This is PvE btw. I rarely use pets in WvW unless I’m in a 1v1 fight.
Ummm, birds have same stats as cats but more vitality. So Id say cats die more easily
Jaguar has best threat drop. I use it’s stealth all the time. Easiest dps pet to keep alive if you ask me.
I’ve felt that Jaguar does more damage then Eagle, I know what the Eagle says its Precision is, but I always felt that Jag actually crit more often then Eagle, and that’s not taking into account the F2 Ability.
The f2 ability is by the way, an awesome threat drop and super damage increase ability..Just good all around period.
Probably the best F2 in the game
Eh willing to debate that raven has the best. However I do agree the jag f2 is amazing. Like I said, the problem with jags is if the target is running at you, even with swiftness, the kitten cat cant hit them unless they are standing still. They fix that and jag could be amazing. Imagine being hit for 6 secs by something you cant see. As for eagle vs jag, idk honestly, I never used eagle, only raven, and ravens f2 hits harder but as far as jag vs raven, Id still pick raven. Controled burst f2 skill imo is better than f2 taht bufs damage and stealths you. I do use raven and jag in pve and pvp now tho. Still gonna give eagle a shot and compare it to raven, but for the most part Im confident raven will be my favorite.
PVE wise, Eagle does more damage
PvP Wise, Raven is better, followed by Owl
Raven’s Ability hits the hardest, and applies a blind…. Owls hits slightly harder then Eagles and applies a Chill.
If you’re swapping birds in combat with the AOE vigor Talent then you generally want to open with Owl Followed by switching over to Raven and F2ing…
Then is a large amount of burst you can land on someone very quickly.
The Bleed from the Eagle Attack is mediocre but it does more DPS then The other two by far…..So use it in PVE, use the others for PvP.
Jaguar is also a good pick for PVE.
For the crit build I’m still finding Jaguar to be best damage. Mine hits on average for 1.4-1.5k and often crits for 2k. This is PvE btw. I rarely use pets in WvW unless I’m in a 1v1 fight.
Ummm, birds have same stats as cats but more vitality. So Id say cats die more easily
Jaguar has best threat drop. I use it’s stealth all the time. Easiest dps pet to keep alive if you ask me.
I’ve felt that Jaguar does more damage then Eagle, I know what the Eagle says its Precision is, but I always felt that Jag actually crit more often then Eagle, and that’s not taking into account the F2 Ability.
The f2 ability is by the way, an awesome threat drop and super damage increase ability..Just good all around period.
Probably the best F2 in the game
Eh willing to debate that raven has the best. However I do agree the jag f2 is amazing. Like I said, the problem with jags is if the target is running at you, even with swiftness, the kitten cat cant hit them unless they are standing still. They fix that and jag could be amazing. Imagine being hit for 6 secs by something you cant see. As for eagle vs jag, idk honestly, I never used eagle, only raven, and ravens f2 hits harder but as far as jag vs raven, Id still pick raven. Controled burst f2 skill imo is better than f2 taht bufs damage and stealths you. I do use raven and jag in pve and pvp now tho. Still gonna give eagle a shot and compare it to raven, but for the most part Im confident raven will be my favorite.
Think someone did a test and determined that Jag did the most damage but i’m not certain.
one of the things i’d like to test is if Birds get knocked down by Ground Effects, like the Elementalist quake thing.. When I was using the Bird it seemed like those types abilities had zero effect on it while the Cat got knocked around like a pinball.
shrug Would be sweet if they didnt affect birds. Actually over long periods of time Im sure jag does more because it attacks faster so in 10 secs of no f2 and just letting them do work yea I can see jag doing better, birds tend to swoop when they attack, but in terms of raw numbers bird gets higher numbers. I have tested this, would pop sig of wild and rao and call of wild and let me jag/raven hit the medium golem, raven killed it faster but not by much, jags raw numbers were smaller tho, helps that raven double strikes for almost all his attacks.
Also while the Jaguar is stealthed, it has 100% chance to crit. Yes the mobs will come at you but you can be prepared for it. I do this:
Drop a Frost Trap
Crippling Shot → Signet of the Hunt → F2 → Quickening Zephyr → watch mobs melt.
If the frost trap gets triggered, circle around it keeping the mob in it and slow on them for the entire duration of the trap.
Use Concussion Shot and/or dodge if the mob starts to get to close.
If there is more than one mob, I try to target the furthest one within range and put all the other between me and him before doing the above.
The f2 ability is the only reason I use the jag honestly, besides the fact that jaguar is my favorite big cat followed by tigers. I want a tiger QQ.
Black bears are pretty good. Their F2 ability applies a weakness and that can chain quite nicely if you time axe skill #3 just right. It can help kill PvE mobs very quickly. It’s not so useful for PvP though. Bears are just too big a target. Stick with the Raven (or any birds) as they are small, agile and hard to click on.
Don’t know if this was mentioned or not, but don’t forget that all birds have an 8 second (I believe) cool down “leap” attack. That’s a pretty short cool down, and that leap triggers combo fields pretty often.
@Snoflake Actually, bears are really good in PvP if you’re going for a more supporty build (especially if you’re beast master cause god kitten will they not be able to do ANYTHING to keep him down!!) Their F2’s are just really good, and then they are immune to CC 90% of the time as a BM, and their damage is not to shabby for being a tank…
PS: Big hit boxes are GOOD the more they hit the pet the less they hit YOU and YOUR TEAM!
Never found a use for bears in pvp quite frankly. But I also didnt play with them much.
Jungle stalker has the best f2 imo. 5 stack of AoE might.
If you go heavy BM, the effect of the Jags f2 diminishes, as your cat/bird has such a high crit rate at that point they crit with nearly 100% of attacks already.
The birds have awesome F2s though, not gonna lie. I especially like the Owls, chill is fun, it hits hard too.
Did you know Jungle Stalkers F2 is different underwater
It gives 10 Stacks of Might.
I think the raven is the worst bird. I’d pick chill and bleed, over blind, any day. The owls chill increases your opponents cooldowns by 66% for 5 seconds, and slows down their movement speed by 66% as well. Bleed is great for providing damage pressure, especially if you’re also dealing bleed yourself. Blind just means your opponent misses once, and that’s it. The damage difference between the birds are miniscule.
Jungle stalker has the best f2 imo. 5 stack of AoE might.
If you go heavy BM, the effect of the Jags f2 diminishes, as your cat/bird has such a high crit rate at that point they crit with nearly 100% of attacks already.
The birds have awesome F2s though, not gonna lie. I especially like the Owls, chill is fun, it hits hard too.
Actually… Might becomes BETTER with higher BM, might increases their power and con damage…
@Dante, I don’t use them currently because just about all my damage is from my pet and spirits, so I can’t really sac that much damage for MORE support and still be viable for point assaulting… However when all my damage was VIA my bow bears were AWESOME!
Really? Is this for certain?
I know Durz! Haha. I was saying the benefit of the Jaguar’s f2 is somewhat lost when you go heavy BM, not the benefit of the Jungle Stalkers Might. Might is amazing on a BM pet!
I know Durz! Haha. I was saying the benefit of the Jaguar’s f2 is somewhat lost when you go heavy BM, not the benefit of the Jungle Stalkers Might. Might is amazing on a BM pet!
Lol wow I misread that then xD, my bad!! But then again… With all that extra damage (and bleeds, which can be your on damage + a bonus with malicious training) from crits can make a bunker cry… And roll over dead while bleeding profusely from all their pores…
Should I make a thread with my findings that pets scale off of your con dmg, con duration, healing power, and crit damage? Or is this already well known?
My problem with the raven/Bird f2’s is their horrible range. The autoattack range is great good reliable damage. F2 range means it’s only really reliable on a dead stick in PvP WvW. Now there are lots of dead sticks but when you absolutely need that pets damage against a good opponent you won’t be landing it reliably at all unless you combo with an immobilizing ability.
PvE not a factor. So it’s a trade off great auto attack reliability with 300 range with worse f2 reliability. Or go with say a snow leopard, Lynx that is the opposite. the stability of auto damage is more valuable as damage overall.
The bird attacking animations seems to make them appears as though they take FOREVER to get to the mob and attack.. Anyone else notice this? Are they slower at getting to the target or is it the same as a cat?
Krojack I’ve noticed that but never tested it. Simple test stopwatch and go to the mists.
See which kills faster over about 10 kills on the golems while in the exact same spec. I’m sort of partial to devourer and leopard as I like to abuse elevation as much as possible and both of those pets arent circle pathing to my targets unlike birds which can’t fly off ledges lacking a leap.
Can’t believe people are still discussing this… I’ve tested it and thought it was well known. All cats>birds when it comes to dps by a rather large margin. The cats attack faster and the ai is smarter (birds use their swiftness mid fight and become useless very often). As for F2 abilities, Raven>Eagle/Hawk on burst. Eagle/Hawk>Raven on dps. In PvP, if you can manage to keep your pet alive Eagle/Hawk>Raven. If you can’t manage to keep them alive Raven>Eagle/Hawk. So in conclusion, if you want highest dps, pick a cat. If you want highest burst, pick a raven or cat. If you want something that will provide great support in PvP, pick a wolf. Wolves have the fastest attack delay at .25 sec and therefore can keep constant attacks on a mobile opponent. Plus, wolves can knockdown and F2 for quite a lot of cc. Cats synergize well with bunker builds because you want to enemy to come to you, allowing your cat to maximize dps. Birds really don’t have a place in PvP because of their lack of reliable cc or damage.
@Indoles.1467
That may be important for pve but not for pvp. Well, even in pve its not important, your pet isnt going to be on target the entire time, birds can hit moving targets, cats cant, birds have ondemand burst, only jag does. Yes cats attack faster but as for smarter AI, Im calling BS. With both their f2 buttons up, raven kills faster, barely, but they kill about the same speed. The only thing is birds swoop and use their screech for swiftness incombat, once they fix cat AI maybe, but until then raven is better imo.
Also each pet has its place, I use raven for its bursty kitten f2, then I switch out for jag get quickness and a fresh can of pet mouth kitten
I tested my lynx versus my hawk against the moving golem in HoM. On average, the hawk killed the golem in about the same time it took the lynx just to get in a couple hits. I started both attacks by pressing F2. The lynx failed to properly hit the golem with its F2 ability, whereas the hawk always landed its F2 attack.
(Remember that the hawk is identical to the eagle.)
Also, remember that hawks/eagles have the same power stat as cats, the same precision stat as cats, the same toughness stat as cats, but TWICE the vitality of cats.
Okay, I just ran some informal tests in the Mists.
First test was against the moving heavy golem. I stood in the same exact spot next to the pillar for each test, and pressed F2 to begin the attack as the golem was moving past the exact same point and same direction. I also had zero weapons equipped and didn’t use any skills or buffs.
Each test was as equal as I could get it. I pressed F2 as soon as it’s cooldown expired, so I used it multiple times, as much as I was able. Here’s the time to death in seconds:
Owl – 37
Lynx – 48
Eagle – 30
Raven – 32
Jaguar – 55
Wolf – 49
Hawk – 33
Snow Leopard – 36
I repeated the same tests against a stationary Medium Golem. Again, I stood in the exact same spot for each test. I started each attack with F2 and pressed F2 again as soon as it went off cooldown. Here’s the time to death in seconds:
Owl – 17
Lynx – 12
Eagle – 15
Raven – 15
Jaguar – 13
Wolf – 20
Hawk – 15
Snow Leopard – 14
Based on my testing, the eagle/hawk/raven are the best. They kill moving targets significantly faster than cats, and they’re only a couple seconds slower than cats on stationary targets. Cats are slightly faster against stationary targets, but seriously, even in PvE, how often are your targets completely stationary?
Plus, birds give a swiftness buff. In real battle, you’re going to also be attacking the target, and swiftness improves your DPS. None of the cats have a buff to your DPS.
If you were going to use a cat, looks like the Snow Leopard is the winner from the terms of time to death. It does better against moving targets because of it’s Icy Pounce which slows down the target enough for it to get more hits in.
PS. I tested several other pets, but they aren’t even worth mentioning. Most took well over 60 seconds to kill the moving target. Overall it was pathetic.
(edited by Skolvikings.5132)
@Skolvikings.5132
Good post, very informational and unbiased. I did my own testing just between raven jag and eagle, and only on stationary targets. Maybe its because Im a glass cannon with 15 in BM, but my raven kills with the light armored golem ( which is raelly medium ) just as fast if not a little faster than jag when using his f2, but its like half a second faster at best. Moving targets, cats are a joke, on stationary both are amazing. I use raven and jag so I get the best of both worlds, and since I started using signet of the hunt Ive found that raven is better with that signet than jaguar since I can signet spike someone with his f2.
My blinding slash generally hits most medium armored targets for 7k without the signet, and 9k with it, it varies but generally I use raven for swiftness buff, signet spike, then swap out for jaguar. Too bad they die so kitten fast. Id still love anet to add a perma stow option and have it so when our pet is stowed we do 40-50% more damage. Leads to very tactical play since I actually like my pet sometimes and hate it others. For instance, in a spvp match today I was attacking a ele, well this ele was getting murdered ( yes he sucked ) and he took off running leaving me chilled, I sicked my black cawk on him ( my raven ) and used hunters shot for the pet swiftness. Then for some reason I lost track of him but my pet didnt, so Im still watching pet half way across the map chase and murder this poor ele, and I use signet of the hunt and f2, and all I see is 5.5k+3.5k, and then invulnerable, and I knew he was dead.
I literally killed him while capping a base half way across the map. Point to this story is that there are times when pets would be a huge boon and times when it would be a bane. But atleast letting us perma stow while buffing our damage 40-50% (scaling with stats) lets us have multiple options on ways to fight, like when we are on a ledge and our pet cant run down, stow him and pew pew and show people the fury of ranger. Also let us stow in combat…seriously, would be amazing at keeping pets alive.
Just did a couple of quick tests in HOM. I was too lazy to use a stopwatch so I counted the number of attacks made, since they are roughly the same between pets. Close enough for ballpark anyway.
VS a stationary Heavy Golem with autoattack only, Jaguar killed the fastest with 10 hits. Hawk was 2nd place but only by 1 or 2 attack cycles (depending on crits).
VS a stationary Heavy Golem using F2 on cooldown, Hawk was first place with 7 hits. Jaguar was about 1-2 attack cycles behind. Raven was very close match to jaguar. Jungle Stalker was last, because the time spent casting Might took away from it’s actual damaging hits.
VS a moving golem with autoattack only, hawk beat jaguar rather handily. The jag’s attack animation is longer, and he gets far fewer in. I also tested canines and ranged pets. The canine is easily the best against moving targets- their built in cc, and the shortest attack animation of all the pets I tested gives them a decisive win. Ranged pets were dead last- they spend too much time moving to get LOS and very little time actually attacking.
Rhyse – in all of my testing against the moving golem in HoM, using the stopwatch on my iPhone each time, the birds consistently killed it faster than any of the dogs could.
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