Guild Wars 2

Hey everyone
in this Thread I would like to discuss the effect “Revealed”, specifically granted by the skills I will mention in just a second.
I will post this in the Thief, Mesmer, Engineer, Ranger and Guardian Forum as these are the professions that either (usually) use stealth or have the ability to apply Revealed through their skills (or, in the case of Dragonhunter, will have the ability).

Before replying please read the whole post, I know it’s a lot but there are also important suggestions + notes in the last few sentences. Thank you

Skills/Traits applying Reveal:

• Analyze (Engineer Toolbelt Utility Skill of Utility Goggles: 6s 1200 Range Reveal + 10×8s Vulnerability, 25s CD)
• Lock On (Engineer Tools Major Master Trait: Striking foes in Stealth analyzes them – see above)
• Detection Pulse (Scrapper Toolbelt Elite Skill of Sneak Gyro: 6s 900 Range AoE Reveal, 20s CD)
• “Sic ’Em!” (Ranger Utility Skill: 6s 2000 Range Reveal, 40s CD)
• Light’s Judgement (Dragonhunger Utility Skill: 10 240 AoE Pulses with 1100 Dmg, 8x 1s Reveal and 25×2s Vulnerability, kitten CD)

Why Do We Complain?
In the Thief Forum there have been a lot of suggestions/complaints about these Skills/Traits in particular. While we do know that they are rarely taken, Analyze, Lock On or Sic ‘Em are seen fairly often on Burst Builds.
Especially Thieves are targeted by the Reveal, as Stealth is currently our best defensive mechanic as Acrobatics (the Thief’s dodge trait line) sucks.
Given that we have an entire trait line based on stealth, lots of utilities and weapon combos balanced around it (while Stealth is not a Thief mechanic, Sneak Attacks are).

These skills/this trait pretty much deny us a whole trait line in a fight and with that most of our surviability, while Revealed we don’t have access to as much dmg as usual (which we usually build for) and the only defensive mechanics we then got are:

• Dodges (which every profession got, so these basically don’t count)
• Blind (very Initiative heavy)
• Interrupts (very Initiative heavy)
  Basically the only other two viable options are kiting (= no dmg) and shadow stepping out to wait until Revealed is over (50s CD).

Suggestions
Because of these reasons there have been some suggestions to change the Revealed effect of these skills/this trait:

• Make the skills not apply “Revealed”, but rather an effect called “Spotted”: everyone can see the target(s) while they still gain the benefits from being in stealth (easy to avoid Backstabs or Mirror Blades for example, but Thieves and Mesmers are not totally locked out of stealth traits they may have chosen for survivability).
• Make the skills be AoE and not apply Revealed to the target(s), but simply drop the stealth that’s currently on them. In this case the skills could even get a casting time and an animation in order to make them counterable.

With these changes, Revealed (and therefore possible “locked” chosen traits) could only be achieved by dealing damage from stealth, which at least a lot of Thieves deem fairer.

Many Thieves think that Revealed on Skills is a bad mechanic that wasn’t thought through, just thrown in to give people a counter to the former counterless stealth. Funnily enough, Anet thereby designed a counterless counter.

Another Idea
Also, I personally think that Analyze (and thereby Lock On), Detection Pulse, “Sic ’Em!” and Light’s Judgement should get benefits when hitting targets without Stealth.
For example, if you’d hit a Thief and a Warrior with Detection Pulse while the Thief was revealed, the Thief would get “Spotted” or dropped out of stealth. As the Warrior wasn’t stealthed, a possibility could be for the Scrapper to gain 1s of Stealth (could be 1s of Stealth for every non-stealthed target hit, while prioritizing stealthed targets. Detection Pulse should have a maximum amount of targets then).
With changes like this, I think these skills and traits would see more use (outside of rekking Thieves ) and would also have a more tactical approach.

Before Answering, Please
Please, before answering, consider the following: With this thread or these suggestions I don’t mean to balance any professions or builds, but rather only the skills I talked about and “Revealed”.
Therefore simply saying “No, it should stay, Mesmer and Thief OP” doesn’t contribute at all, as Mesmer’s or Thief’s OPness or not should be balanced by itself (Traits, Weapon Skills,…) and not through Skills of other professions.
I know it can be hard to differentiate (especially as a lot of players hate Thieves and think that Mesmers are OP at the moment).

Anyway, thanks for reading and what do you guys think about my suggestions?

Interesting read, as most people want to be able to see the targets I feel this change wouldn’t be that bad. Now when you say uncounterable counter I have to step in a note that if you look at all the cool down on these abilities and their duration there is a big window for attack (other than the engineer’kitten them while in stealth not sure the internal cooldown on that but it isn’t short) Also ‘most’ of these abilities require the other player to not be in stealth because you need to have the target selected to cast it meaning you can ‘bait’ out the ability by making it look like you are going in just to stay out and wait for revealed to wear off. I’m not saying this change is’t a good idea just that most of the revealed abilities have couterplay to them.

Well, everything need a counter play, even stealth. And reveal is the counter play to steath. Your idea are not bad but maybe, it’s just a guess, Anet would like that thieve use every spec instead of locking them in shadow art.

I don’t think what you want is needed. In fact what you propose would force thieves even more into one traitline because “it’s the best one”. For me, this is a bad solution to your issues.

A couple thoughts.

Thieves are reliant on stealth because they are poorly designed, much like Assassins from GW1. DareDevil and s/s Shiro Revenant are basically what thieves SHOULD have been, with a bit of stealth added on for flavor.

On to stealth itself.
GW2’s implementation, at the moment, is very binary. It has no true soft counters, and one hard counter: revealed. I am all for adding soft counters to the stealth mechanic.

I was fond of some of the approaches SW:TOR used for stealth. Invisible at range, but you start ‘ghosting’ to partially visible if you run around close to your target while in their forward arc. Then, Snipers/Gunslingers got a passive that let them gradually build up this stacking buff that increased the range at which stealthed targets started ‘ghosting’ (only for the sniper though, and only while in cover).

While it’d probably kitten people off, I’d be ok with the Spotter trait being reworked into a stealth soft counter trait. It could possibly allow the ranger to see through stealth at short/mid ranges(900-ish ?), similar to what the OP’s ‘Spotted’ debuff does.

As for engi’s, I have a lvl 80 engi but I rarely play it. That said, the amount of reveal they are heaping onto the class is a bit absurd. I really don’t want engi (or any class) to become the ‘anti-stealth class’. That’s just kittenty design.

Dadnir.5038:

Well, everything need a counter play, even stealth. And reveal is the counter play to steath. Your idea are not bad but maybe, it’s just a guess, Anet would like that thieve use every spec instead of locking them in shadow art.

I don’t think what you want is needed. In fact what you propose would force thieves even more into one traitline because “it’s the best one”. For me, this is a bad solution to your issues.

I wouldn’t even suggest anything if Shadow Arts wasn’t the best defensive option for Thief. Look at Acro, going for Critical Strikes is probably way better than taking Acro because you could take Invigorating Precision…
As soon as Anet is making Acro viable again I’ll stop using SA and jump on Acro S/D, the problem atm is though that its just outshined by… well everything basically

Shadow Phage.9084:

A couple thoughts.

Thieves are reliant on stealth because they are poorly designed, much like Assassins from GW1. DareDevil and s/s Shiro Revenant are basically what thieves SHOULD have been, with a bit of stealth added on for flavor.

On to stealth itself.
GW2’s implementation, at the moment, is very binary. It has no true soft counters, and one hard counter: revealed. I am all for adding soft counters to the stealth mechanic.

I was fond of some of the approaches SW:TOR used for stealth. Invisible at range, but you start ‘ghosting’ to partially visible if you run around close to your target while in their forward arc. Then, Snipers/Gunslingers got a passive that let them gradually build up this stacking buff that increased the range at which stealthed targets started ‘ghosting’ (only for the sniper though, and only while in cover).

While it’d probably kitten people off, I’d be ok with the Spotter trait being reworked into a stealth soft counter trait. It could possibly allow the ranger to see through stealth at short/mid ranges(900-ish ?), similar to what the OP’s ‘Spotted’ debuff does.

As for engi’s, I have a lvl 80 engi but I rarely play it. That said, the amount of reveal they are heaping onto the class is a bit absurd. I really don’t want engi (or any class) to become the ‘anti-stealth class’. That’s just kittenty design.

Generally agree with everything you said but I think 900 would be too much.
I’d say at 600 you should be able to see a bit of blur.

Btw I also got every single class at 80 with at least 50 hours of pure WvW Solo Roaming and PvP Unranked/Ranked on each.
And while I’m a Thief main, I still regularly play other classes… ironically my 2nd main is an Engi. And no matter how often I do play a class, S/F Ele is the only build where I partly got problems with Thieves sadly

Before reveal skills, Stealth has NO conterplay at all.
You can go among people, threw people and don’t be afraid, that something will goes wrong.

Looks like it’s really hard for Thiefs and mesmers to swallow that fact, that now, they have to outplay someone and that they have to keep in mind, that you can be revealed.

“Revealed” buff added conterplay possibility.

I don’t feel fare. that mesmer can make 20k damage from stealth, and you can’t even dodge it, because you don’t even see it.

Thiefs and Mesmers have to be glad, that Anet did not added same Stealth mechanic like all other MMOs, when every damage will Reveal you automatically.

Can we get this poinless re-post thread deleted please? It does not belong here and its just spam, posted in multiple places.

Stealth needs counter play. Period.

Rizo.9534:

Before reveal skills, Stealth has NO conterplay at all.
You can go among people, threw people and don’t be afraid, that something will goes wrong.

Looks like it’s really hard for Thiefs and mesmers to swallow that fact, that now, they have to outplay someone and that they have to keep in mind, that you can be revealed.

“Revealed” buff added conterplay possibility.

I don’t feel fare. that mesmer can make 20k damage from stealth, and you can’t even dodge it, because you don’t even see it.

Thiefs and Mesmers have to be glad, that Anet did not added same Stealth mechanic like all other MMOs, when every damage will Reveal you automatically.

You can avoid Mirror Blade because it can be seen (like any projectile from stealth).
The only problem I see with Reveal from other classes is that they lock Thieves out of a whole trait line, making Stealth have one counter only – and that’s a hard counter.
Some more counters, but soft counters, would be nicer imo.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Can we get this poinless re-post thread deleted please? It does not belong here and its just spam, posted in multiple places.

Stealth needs counter play. Period.

I just felt like I should ask for opinions in the forums where the topic fits, as Ranger has both Stealth and Revealed that was a forum where the opinion mattered imo.
Counterplay yes, but only one hard counter? what about more soft counters instead, so that it’s not an insta win when used correctly.

How about my Partial reveal/seeking soft counterplay idea?

Tarkan.5609:

The only problem I see with Reveal from other classes is that they lock Thieves out of a whole trait line, making Stealth have one counter only – and that’s a hard counter.
Some more counters, but soft counters, would be nicer imo.

Same with rangers. If pet Die(it die really quick) we have locked Fully from BM tree.
More of that. Runes of Ranger did not work and 30% of our other traits did not work too.
20% of our skills based on our pet, and worst thing, that you can’t prevent pets death, because it has very low HP pool, can’t clean conditions and can’t dodge.

We have mechanic, that Locks 50% of our class mechanic for 1min every time PET dies and we can do noting with it.

And you complain about skills, that lock only one of your trees for only 4-6sec and asking for soft counter?

Getting revealed is similar to getting interrupted – both throw off your plans big time. If a mesmer p-blocks your heal, chances are you’re in trouble. The counterplays are similar, too – bait out the revealed, dodge or avoid it if it has a cast time. For both, after the fact there isn’t much you can do about the interruption/reveal, but you need to deal with the results. The only thing you can’t do for revealed as opposed to interruption is to prevent it with stability – which I actually wouldn’t mind with the caveat that self-applied revealed (from going out of stealth) would go through stability.

I wouldn’t even suggest anything if Shadow Arts wasn’t the best defensive option for Thief. Look at Acro, going for Critical Strikes is probably way better than taking Acro because you could take Invigorating Precision…
As soon as Anet is making Acro viable again I’ll stop using SA and jump on Acro S/D, the problem atm is though that its just outshined by… well everything basically

This is exactly my point. You won’t fix the issue by “buffing” something that’s absolutely unrelated. Honestly, Acro need work (I mean a lot of work) while stealth need to stay as it is right now. Introducing a new feature revolving around stealth because Acro can’t do it’s job is a nonsense. (There is barely any trait on the whole Acro traitline that don’t need work… It’s sad but it’s the reality).

Rizo.9534:

Tarkan.5609:

The only problem I see with Reveal from other classes is that they lock Thieves out of a whole trait line, making Stealth have one counter only – and that’s a hard counter.
Some more counters, but soft counters, would be nicer imo.

Same with rangers. If pet Die(it die really quick) we have locked Fully from BM tree.
More of that. Runes of Ranger did not work and 30% of our other traits did not work too.
20% of our skills based on our pet, and worst thing, that you can’t prevent pets death, because it has very low HP pool, can’t clean conditions and can’t dodge.

We have mechanic, that Locks 50% of our class mechanic for 1min every time PET dies and we can do noting with it.

And you complain about skills, that lock only one of your trees for only 4-6sec and asking for soft counter?

Oh, that’s good. Touché.

Rizo.9534:

Tarkan.5609:

The only problem I see with Reveal from other classes is that they lock Thieves out of a whole trait line, making Stealth have one counter only – and that’s a hard counter.
Some more counters, but soft counters, would be nicer imo.

Same with rangers. If pet Die(it die really quick) we have locked Fully from BM tree.
More of that. Runes of Ranger did not work and 30% of our other traits did not work too.
20% of our skills based on our pet, and worst thing, that you can’t prevent pets death, because it has very low HP pool, can’t clean conditions and can’t dodge.

We have mechanic, that Locks 50% of our class mechanic for 1min every time PET dies and we can do noting with it.

And you complain about skills, that lock only one of your trees for only 4-6sec and asking for soft counter?

Guess why Ranger hasn’t been in the Meta for a long time.
That’s because it class mechanic is flawed, just like Necros (who only have a Meta place because of their boon conversion against D/D Eles)
Just because it’s been there for a long time desn’t mean it shouldn’t be changed.

Tuomir.1830:

Getting revealed is similar to getting interrupted – both throw off your plans big time. If a mesmer p-blocks your heal, chances are you’re in trouble. The counterplays are similar, too – bait out the revealed, dodge or avoid it if it has a cast time. For both, after the fact there isn’t much you can do about the interruption/reveal, but you need to deal with the results. The only thing you can’t do for revealed as opposed to interruption is to prevent it with stability – which I actually wouldn’t mind with the caveat that self-applied revealed (from going out of stealth) would go through stability.

Regarding the cast time you meantioned… Reveal skills currently don’t have any, that’s why it’s a counterplay that can’t be countered. Just like Mesmers Mantra you mentioned, which is a 100% stun and should be nerfed a bit, but well that’s not the topic.

All I want is to not be (in theory, if Thief was op) facerolling over everything unless they got Sic ’Em/Analyze/Lock On, in which case they could face roll me.

Dadnir.5038:

I wouldn’t even suggest anything if Shadow Arts wasn’t the best defensive option for Thief. Look at Acro, going for Critical Strikes is probably way better than taking Acro because you could take Invigorating Precision…
As soon as Anet is making Acro viable again I’ll stop using SA and jump on Acro S/D, the problem atm is though that its just outshined by… well everything basically

This is exactly my point. You won’t fix the issue by “buffing” something that’s absolutely unrelated. Honestly, Acro need work (I mean a lot of work) while stealth need to stay as it is right now. Introducing a new feature revolving around stealth because Acro can’t do it’s job is a nonsense. (There is barely any trait on the whole Acro traitline that don’t need work… It’s sad but it’s the reality).

SA could use some rework, Acro could use some rework.
So you would rather have one hard counter and no soft counters? Your skills could also be made stronger in general (extra offensive/defensive boons/effects), which could balance what you lost why not Revealing.