Guild Wars 2

You have an axe mainhand that has some horrible case of mistaken identity just as with the shortbow.

You have a crappy hybrid weapon with a power based, low coefficient autoattack on a weapon whose other skills are condition based.

You could give Ricochet 10 might per hit and it would still suck, because the weapon has no sustained DPS whatsoever due to its miserable autoattack damage, and short of shotgun melee range splitblade you are not doing anything with that weapon in a group setting.

Same goes for shortbow, bunch of hybrid physical and condition skills.

You don’t seem to understand that hybrid builds in PvE SUCK because players stack one stat or the other.

Power builds want to stack ferocity and precision. Condi build will take condi damage, power, and precision.

Because both ricochet and the shortbow skills all have miserly power coefficients, they’re essentially wasted skills on a weapon with 3-4 other skills that deal with conditions.

Zenith.7301:

You don’t seem to understand that hybrid builds in PvE SUCK because players stack one stat or the other.

Why do you think they don’t intend these changes for PvP and WvW, which is where those weapons have traditionally been used?

Fluffball.8307:

Zenith.7301:

You don’t seem to understand that hybrid builds in PvE SUCK because players stack one stat or the other.

Why do you think they don’t intend these changes for PvP and WvW, which is where those weapons have traditionally been used?

Because PvE deserves more weapon variety than just mainhand sword and longbow.

The entire game’s balance is slave to PvP; it’d be nice for a change if they actually gave a kitten about PvE rangers.

Fluffball.8307:

Zenith.7301:

You don’t seem to understand that hybrid builds in PvE SUCK because players stack one stat or the other.

Why do you think they don’t intend these changes for PvP and WvW, which is where those weapons have traditionally been used?

roflmao axe and sb are bad in any player vs player scenario and they are bad for a really long time already and the buffs change nothing

Zenith.7301:

Fluffball.8307:

Zenith.7301:

You don’t seem to understand that hybrid builds in PvE SUCK because players stack one stat or the other.

Why do you think they don’t intend these changes for PvP and WvW, which is where those weapons have traditionally been used?

Because PvE deserves more weapon variety than just mainhand sword and longbow.

The entire game’s balance is slave to PvP; it’d be nice for a change if they actually gave a kitten about PvE rangers.

Condi build is Axe/Torch and Raids will have you playing with staff in a lot of cases so we have plenty of variety.

If you really want more variety, then ask for them to make dagger more interesting or make warhorn better.

assassin.7895:

roflmao axe and sb are bad in any player vs player scenario and they are bad for a really long time already and the buffs change nothing

Both SB and axe have historically been the most used weapons for ranger in terms of meta builds, and they’re even stronger right now than when they were used widely. The reason they aren’t meta at the moment is because staff druid came along. An even then axe is still a very strong, relatively commonly used WvW roaming weapon.

I feel like you just wanted to post a rage post and didn’t think it through.

As a PvE ranger that used mainhand axe the majority of the time I disagree with you. Sure it sucks if the axe is your main damage output, but as a utility weapon set it has great functionality. Stacking might through the AA (before the buff to it’s might generation) I could get anywhere from 8-15 stacks of might from the AA alone depending on how many enemies there were and with my chosen secondary of warhorn could get 15-25 fairly comfortably (might I ad my setup gave me swiftness, fury, and regen as well). It left me enough might to deal good burst damage with the warhorn #4 and longbow #2 & #5 skills before switching back. Granted I used it more for power than condi, but the chill is decent and the axe 2 skill was good for tagging enemies as is the axe AA. I haven’t tried it, but the shortbow or sword mainhand with torch may be a good complimentary second set. The benefit hybrid weapons have over power or condi weapons is that you can destroy destructables while still dealing decent overall damage. I prefer hybrid weapons in PvE.

ZombieLeach.5862:

As a PvE ranger that used mainhand axe the majority of the time I disagree with you. Sure it sucks if the axe is your main damage output, but as a utility weapon set it has great functionality. Stacking might through the AA (before the buff to it’s might generation) I could get anywhere from 8-15 stacks of might from the AA alone depending on how many enemies there were and with my chosen secondary of warhorn could get 15-25 fairly comfortably (might I ad my setup gave me swiftness, fury, and regen as well). It left me enough might to deal good burst damage with the warhorn #4 and longbow #2 & #5 skills before switching back. Granted I used it more for power than condi, but the chill is decent and the axe 2 skill was good for tagging enemies as is the axe AA. I haven’t tried it, but the shortbow or sword mainhand with torch may be a good complimentary second set. The benefit hybrid weapons have over power or condi weapons is that you can destroy destructables while still dealing decent overall damage. I prefer hybrid weapons in PvE.

You don’t need the might stacking because the revenant and warrior already cap it for you in a group setting. But I get the impression you’re not the guy doing instanced content at high fractal levels or raids.

Substance E.4852:

Condi build is Axe/Torch and Raids will have you playing with staff in a lot of cases so we have plenty of variety.

If you really want more variety, then ask for them to make dagger more interesting or make warhorn better.

An inferior, less mobile version of the engineer as the bulk of the DPS did not come from the axe, but rather Bonfire from the torch. Bleed DPS is garbage in terms of DPS contribution relative to burning. Which is why the strongest condi classes in PvE also have the strongest burning uptime.

The difference is the ranger relies on a boss being stationary on bonfire to do damage, and he can’t cleave his axe or torch conditions onto other spread targets like engineer or necro can.

Ah. Another case of judging something in very specific settings, not in general. Got it. I’ll let you continue ranting

I will point out, sinister gear is for hybrid builds, as is any stat set that has power and condi (carrion, rampager, etc). Dire, rabid, and trailblazer(I think) are examples of pure condi stat sets.

This patch was a good one, need to get a short bow to test out the changes there. I loved axe before, and they made it better (yay!). War horn is fine as it is, someone’s off their rocker there.

You do realize if you stack 25 might on yourself that the warrior and rev might stacking then goes to another player who wasn’t at 25 right? Which would increase the whole raids damage output. Also axe has, and always will be, one of our best condi damage weapons, there’s a reason Axe/Torch is used in every condi build we’ve ever had.

You do realize if you stack 25 might on yourself that the warrior and rev might stacking then goes to another player who wasn’t at 25 right? Which would increase the whole raids damage output. Also axe has, and always will be, one of our best condi damage weapons, there’s a reason Axe/Torch is used in every condi build we’ve ever had.

With the exception of sword/ torch, shortbow sure.

Zenith.7301:

An inferior, less mobile version of the engineer as the bulk of the DPS did not come from the axe, but rather Bonfire from the torch. Bleed DPS is garbage in terms of DPS contribution relative to burning. Which is why the strongest condi classes in PvE also have the strongest burning uptime.

The difference is the ranger relies on a boss being stationary on bonfire to do damage, and he can’t cleave his axe or torch conditions onto other spread targets like engineer or necro can.

Ya, I’m well aware of what fuels the DPS in double bonfire.

I’m also well aware, as you are, that it was a build that utilized axe in the main hand. While it might be feasible to use sword now without the glue when in raids or high fractals, you probably aren’t going to make up for the bleeds which literally leaves only one option.

Just because the auto is turds doesn’t mean the weapon isn’t the optimal choice.

The auto on staff and GS are both pretty kitten in a lot of cases and yet they are both very solid weapons for other reasons.

Substance E.4852:

Zenith.7301:

An inferior, less mobile version of the engineer as the bulk of the DPS did not come from the axe, but rather Bonfire from the torch. Bleed DPS is garbage in terms of DPS contribution relative to burning. Which is why the strongest condi classes in PvE also have the strongest burning uptime.

The difference is the ranger relies on a boss being stationary on bonfire to do damage, and he can’t cleave his axe or torch conditions onto other spread targets like engineer or necro can.

Ya, I’m well aware of what fuels the DPS in double bonfire.

I’m also well aware, as you are, that it was a build that utilized axe in the main hand. While it might be feasible to use sword now without the glue when in raids or high fractals, you probably aren’t going to make up for the bleeds which literally leaves only one option.

Just because the auto is turds doesn’t mean the weapon isn’t the optimal choice.

The auto on staff and GS are both pretty kitten in a lot of cases and yet they are both very solid weapons for other reasons.

Which is what I’m arguing, that their balancing of autoattacks is horrendous.

Adding might stacks to ricochet is like adding retaliation to mesmer scepter auto. It’s a useless way to fix a garbage autoattack.

They could just buff the kitten damage of ricochet so it’s either a half competent power weapon, or they can add two bleed/3 torment stacks to the autoattack to make it a proper condi weapon.

Even if you feel like the game revolves around PvP balance, you can’t just ignore PvP balance all together. Might on the axe is really strong, and if they added retal to the mesmer scepter that would be OP. Because PvE isn’t in a vacuum.

And axe has never pretended to be a PvE weapon, it just sort of fell into it by accident. Some weapons like our axe and warrior hammer and lots of other examples were clearly intended for use against other players, especially before the defiance bar addition.

Zenith.7301:

They could just buff the kitten damage of ricochet so it’s either a half competent power weapon, or they can add two bleed/3 torment stacks to the autoattack to make it a proper condi weapon.

They could but the damage is actually pretty good for a ranged weapon on our class if you’re fighting two targets and can hit your initial target twice per attack.

How long do you think the weapon would last in pvp when people are getting hit with 4 bleeds or 6 torment per throw simply because they are within 900 units of their ally?

While the skill could be better it’s by no means any kind of real handicap.

Warhorn needs much more help to be relevant than the axe does, in either hand.

Substance E.4852:

Zenith.7301:

They could just buff the kitten damage of ricochet so it’s either a half competent power weapon, or they can add two bleed/3 torment stacks to the autoattack to make it a proper condi weapon.

They could but the damage is actually pretty good for a ranged weapon on our class if you’re fighting two targets and can hit your initial target twice per attack.

How long do you think the weapon would last in pvp when people are getting hit with 4 bleeds or 6 torment per throw simply because they are within 900 units of their ally?

While the skill could be better it’s by no means any kind of real handicap.

Warhorn needs much more help to be relevant than the axe does, in either hand.

I’m not about to have PvE mutilated because of how features work in PvP. Just buff the weapon and make it so the bounce only hits different targets.

And no, the weapon’s autoattack is the weakest in the game besides water staff auto or Flamestrike on fire scepter.

Axe is not a weapon you use from range right now, you need splitblade point blank or you’re useless.

What about shortbow is hybrid? Looks full on condition to me.

I cant believe people are still complaining about axe in condi builds. The gm trait pretty much tells you its for power unless ferocity has a use in condi builds.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

I cant believe people are still complaining about axe in condi builds. The gm trait pretty much tells you its for power unless ferocity has a use in condi builds.

What mode are you using it for power? I could see it in PvP but I’m not sure that’s the BEST choice.

Also the 2nd skill is for for either hybrid or condi, so you can’t just list one option and say that’s what the weapon is for. Nearly no one uses axe for power, hundreds of thousands of people use it for condi or hybrid.

After the recent patch, Anet made it pretty clear establishing main-hand axe is a hybrid weapon by adding bleed on Winter’s Bite. Not a power, not a straight up condition. It works better for condition, and the added ferocity pairs well with precision; a stat most hybrid and condition builds/gear stack up for additional damage.

At this point, no need to even question it now, unless more changes are to be made.

Conncept.7638:

What about shortbow is hybrid? Looks full on condition to me.

The auto has reasonably high power coefficients, and the rest of the skills don’t apply any worthwhile condition pressure.

Poison Spread is a worthless skill outside PvP due to its marginal poison duration, and one skill is a cripple while the other makes pets apply bleeds which are weaker than yours because for some reason they won’t make pets scale off the ranger’s own stats.

Shortbow is eclipsed in condi pressure by mainhand axe and power damage by longbow.

Zenith.7301:

Conncept.7638:

What about shortbow is hybrid? Looks full on condition to me.

The auto has reasonably high power coefficients, and the rest of the skills don’t apply any worthwhile condition pressure.

Poison Spread is a worthless skill outside PvP due to its marginal poison duration, and one skill is a cripple while the other makes pets apply bleeds which are weaker than yours because for some reason they won’t make pets scale off the ranger’s own stats.

Shortbow is eclipsed in condi pressure by mainhand axe and power damage by longbow.

It’s actually only weaker if you have over 1k condi damage, 1350k if you have the trait in WS. So if you use any low stat condi amulet in PvP (like rampagers) your pet will be doing more damage, and if you’re using merc amulet you’ll be doing about the same, but ya, let’s just keep ignoring that bit of info.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

I cant believe people are still complaining about axe in condi builds. The gm trait pretty much tells you its for power unless ferocity has a use in condi builds.

The GM trait is pure trash, a polished kitten of a relic from the past.

The stat should have been swapped to give the user precision for each axe wielded/while wielding an axe so that it is actually usefull for both mainhand and off-hand. Winter’s Bite should be aoe baseline, and the trait should instead offer something like an attack speed bonus when wielding an axe (either hand).

Not saying that’s the best solution, but it’s an obvious upgrade from what it is now, and more importantly, it is streamlined. A weapon that caters to both condi and power builds depending on which hand you equip it in needs a streamlined trait.

The fact that they took the old Honed Axes – a trait never used -, added reduced recharge, aoe WB and promoted it up to gm tier is borderline ridiculous. I couldn’t believe my ears when they presented the specialization changes last summer and one of them said he was “excited” about Honed Axes.

How to save ricochet in one easy step:
Make it a 100% projectile finisher.

I constantly fall down from laughter when people suggest Hybrid weapon sucks … for content where Hybrid builds are Ranger’s strongest domain.

Viper’s, Sinister’s – those are both hybrid stats. Not Condi.
So … I’m sorry but I’m not gonna agree on any of OP’s believes.
Axe is currently used in our highest DPS build. It has been used even before the buffs as well.

I think we’re stretching it a bit to call the a/t build a hybrid build. I just looked at the metabattle suggested skill usage and the autoattack is only used once per rotation. If there were an armor set that was 100% condition damage instead of half and half like vipers (i.e. shove all the power of vipers into condi) that would be the recommended gear.

For PvE, axe goes in there because it does better condi damage than any alternatives. For PvP and WvW, hell ya axe as hybrid is fantastic.

Hm, it’s great for might stacking and boosting your condi power. Pair it with Nature Magic trait line for max might stacked beasties. It’s actually really powerful.

Fluffball.8307:

I think we’re stretching it a bit to call the a/t build a hybrid build. I just looked at the metabattle suggested skill usage and the autoattack is only used once per rotation. If there were an armor set that was 100% condition damage instead of half and half like vipers (i.e. shove all the power of vipers into condi) that would be the recommended gear.

For PvE, axe goes in there because it does better condi damage than any alternatives. For PvP and WvW, hell ya axe as hybrid is fantastic.

That doesn’t change anything, though.
Axe is a hybrid weapon used for Hybrid Stats itemization. Even for PvE.
Wanderer / Rabid would be the condi stats if you ask me. Yet A/T rangers don’t go Wanderer for PvE even if DPS difference is low.

Just because our rotation squeezes most of condition part of the hybrid stats – it doesn’t mean the stats are condi. A single build of a single class doesn’t make the nature of one stat combination different. The point stays.

Tragic Positive.9356:

Just because our rotation squeezes most of condition part of the hybrid stats – it doesn’t mean the stats are condi. A single build of a single class doesn’t make the nature of one stat combination different. The point stays.

By that logic, if I was in full berserker running axe/torch it would be a hybrid build. It’s just a technicality that a/t uses hybrid armor and ekes some power damage out.

I’m not sure why we’re debating this though, I have no idea what’s going on.

Fluffball.8307:

By that logic, if I was in full berserker running axe/torch it would be a hybrid build. It’s just a technicality that a/t uses hybrid armor and ekes some power damage out.

I’m not sure why we’re debating this though, I have no idea what’s going on.

That would be a dead build. Or a wrong one. That’s a build with low damage output so there’s no reason to classify it regardless of stats or type of damage output (since it has damage lower than other possible options).

Aaaand I came late to this thread.
So I stated that I disagree with OP. Sorry if that caused a misunderstanding.

Guys, any build that uses Viper, Sinister, Rampager, Carrion, Celestial, and a couple others is a Hybrid build, because you traited for high Power and Condition Damage. If you only need condi, use Dire (and some other ones that don’t have power as a stat).

Zenith.7301:

You have an axe mainhand that has some horrible case of mistaken identity just as with the shortbow.

You have a crappy hybrid weapon with a power based, low coefficient autoattack on a weapon whose other skills are condition based.

You could give Ricochet 10 might per hit and it would still suck, because the weapon has no sustained DPS whatsoever due to its miserable autoattack damage, and short of shotgun melee range splitblade you are not doing anything with that weapon in a group setting.

Same goes for shortbow, bunch of hybrid physical and condition skills.

You don’t seem to understand that hybrid builds in PvE SUCK because players stack one stat or the other.

Power builds want to stack ferocity and precision. Condi build will take condi damage, power, and precision.

Because both ricochet and the shortbow skills all have miserly power coefficients, they’re essentially wasted skills on a weapon with 3-4 other skills that deal with conditions.

There is something about GW2 and Axes … much of what you said here applies to Necro Axe as well. Perhaps their is a unified concept for Axes that requires some new thinking and re-applied to classes that have them for main hand weapons. Personally, i think the ‘hybrid’ approach doesn’t make sense in a game where you can swap between weapons specialized for melee and long range as the situation requires.

bearshaman.3421:

Guys, any build that uses Viper, Sinister, Rampager, Carrion, Celestial, and a couple others is a Hybrid build, because you traited for high Power and Condition Damage. If you only need condi, use Dire (and some other ones that don’t have power as a stat).

The reason viper and sinister are used in PvE is because defense is a wasted stat. Even if the power only increases your damage 1%, it’s better than having extra defense that is 100% wasted. You can almost argue the extra power is wasted on many professions condi builds, but it’s better than defense. And obviously viper gets you the critical 100% condi duration, the power is even less relevant there.

You can add as much power as you want to a torch, it’s not a hybrid weapon. Axe isn’t hybrid if you’re not using the autoattack in PvE. It’s hybrid when you use the autoattack in PvP and have power. Nearly all of your damage comes from condis = condi build.

Fluffball.8307:

bearshaman.3421:

Guys, any build that uses Viper, Sinister, Rampager, Carrion, Celestial, and a couple others is a Hybrid build, because you traited for high Power and Condition Damage. If you only need condi, use Dire (and some other ones that don’t have power as a stat).

The reason viper and sinister are used in PvE is because defense is a wasted stat. Even if the power only increases your damage 1%, it’s better than having extra defense that is 100% wasted. You can almost argue the extra power is wasted on many professions condi builds, but it’s better than defense. And obviously viper gets you the critical 100% condi duration, the power is even less relevant there.

Agreed in general, although I still allow that Vitality is useful, especially for player that are still getting used to a class, and against monster groups that pump out condi.

Also Rabid is a condi set, and the precision is useful without power because of how many traits in different professions proc conditions on crit.

You can add as much power as you want to a torch, it’s not a hybrid weapon. Axe isn’t hybrid if you’re not using the autoattack in PvE. It’s hybrid when you use the autoattack in PvP and have power. Nearly all of your damage comes from condis = condi build.

Whether a weapon is hybrid or not has nothing to do with how you use it. A knife doesn’t cease being sharp because you decided to cut your bread with the back side of it. If the weapon has a mix of good power and condi options in its set of skills, it’s a hybrid weapon. Period. You can use it for a pure power or condi build, but the fact that you can use it for both only proves what I said.

bearshaman.3421:

Whether a weapon is hybrid or not has nothing to do with how you use it. A knife doesn’t cease being sharp because you decided to cut your bread with the back side of it. If the weapon has a mix of good power and condi options in its set of skills, it’s a hybrid weapon. Period. You can use it for a pure power or condi build, but the fact that you can use it for both only proves what I said.

You said that viper or sinister were hybrid, and made no mention of axe. Axe is clearly hybrid, but a viper ranger using axe in PvE is pure condi.

Totally useless semantics, but whatever.

Fluffball.8307:

bearshaman.3421:

Whether a weapon is hybrid or not has nothing to do with how you use it. A knife doesn’t cease being sharp because you decided to cut your bread with the back side of it. If the weapon has a mix of good power and condi options in its set of skills, it’s a hybrid weapon. Period. You can use it for a pure power or condi build, but the fact that you can use it for both only proves what I said.

You said that viper or sinister were hybrid, and made no mention of axe. Axe is clearly hybrid, but a viper ranger using axe in PvE is pure condi.

Totally useless semantics, but whatever.

See, I guess to me that isn’t pure condi, because you can still use the autoattack, do decent power damage cuz Viper has power high. You might not choose to, but the option is there.

Edit: If you were doing the same build with Rabid or Dire, that to me would be a pure condi build, because you don’t have the power to make the AA useful.

bearshaman.3421:

Fluffball.8307:

bearshaman.3421:

Whether a weapon is hybrid or not has nothing to do with how you use it. A knife doesn’t cease being sharp because you decided to cut your bread with the back side of it. If the weapon has a mix of good power and condi options in its set of skills, it’s a hybrid weapon. Period. You can use it for a pure power or condi build, but the fact that you can use it for both only proves what I said.

You said that viper or sinister were hybrid, and made no mention of axe. Axe is clearly hybrid, but a viper ranger using axe in PvE is pure condi.

Totally useless semantics, but whatever.

See, I guess to me that isn’t pure condi, because you can still use the autoattack, do decent power damage cuz Viper has power high. You might not choose to, but the option is there.

Edit: If you were doing the same build with Rabid or Dire, that to me would be a pure condi build, because you don’t have the power to make the AA useful.

It’s a condi build.

The overwhelming majority of your damage is from burns and some from bleeds, not from the piddly damage axe does to a single target.

Axe auto could do 0 damage and would probably have a negligible effect (assuming one isn’t a neurotic minmaxer) on your total dps in a fight against a raid or dungeon/fractal boss.

Substance E.4852:

bearshaman.3421:

Fluffball.8307:

bearshaman.3421:

Whether a weapon is hybrid or not has nothing to do with how you use it. A knife doesn’t cease being sharp because you decided to cut your bread with the back side of it. If the weapon has a mix of good power and condi options in its set of skills, it’s a hybrid weapon. Period. You can use it for a pure power or condi build, but the fact that you can use it for both only proves what I said.

You said that viper or sinister were hybrid, and made no mention of axe. Axe is clearly hybrid, but a viper ranger using axe in PvE is pure condi.

Totally useless semantics, but whatever.

See, I guess to me that isn’t pure condi, because you can still use the autoattack, do decent power damage cuz Viper has power high. You might not choose to, but the option is there.

Edit: If you were doing the same build with Rabid or Dire, that to me would be a pure condi build, because you don’t have the power to make the AA useful.

It’s a condi build.

The overwhelming majority of your damage is from burns and some from bleeds, not from the piddly damage axe does to a single target.

Axe auto could do 0 damage and would probably have a negligible effect (assuming one isn’t a neurotic minmaxer) on your total dps in a fight against a raid or dungeon/fractal boss.

against a singular target no. But it is very useful for dealing with adds, and the trash mobs leading up to it. I clear the ice walls in snowblind without ever taking focus off the boss at the end, and it works really well in Volcanic as well to deal with the lava elemental slug things, again without taking focus off of the main boss.

Substance E.4852:

It’s a condi build.

The overwhelming majority of your damage is from burns and some from bleeds, not from the piddly damage axe does to a single target.

Axe auto could do 0 damage and would probably have a negligible effect (assuming one isn’t a neurotic minmaxer) on your total dps in a fight against a raid or dungeon/fractal boss.

You still have the option.
And also – outside of raid content you do use axe #1 if you can. It can increase your might stacks up to 25. It can also deal damage to targets immune to conditions.

A condi build can’t do that.
Naturally – the most DPS that you can squeeze goes out of conditions but that changes nothing about hybrid DPS and uses of axe.
You are right. 90% of it’s damage goes from conditions. Which means……. Why no one uses Wanderer / Dire / Rabid / whichever condi (only) stats ? Probably because even the power portion matters. Which naturally promotes and proves the idea it being hybrid.

Tragic Positive.9356:

Substance E.4852:

It’s a condi build.

The overwhelming majority of your damage is from burns and some from bleeds, not from the piddly damage axe does to a single target.

Axe auto could do 0 damage and would probably have a negligible effect (assuming one isn’t a neurotic minmaxer) on your total dps in a fight against a raid or dungeon/fractal boss.

You still have the option.
And also – outside of raid content you do use axe #1 if you can. It can increase your might stacks up to 25. It can also deal damage to targets immune to conditions.

A condi build can’t do that.
Naturally – the most DPS that you can squeeze goes out of conditions but that changes nothing about hybrid DPS and uses of axe.
You are right. 90% of it’s damage goes from conditions. Which means……. Why no one uses Wanderer / Dire / Rabid / whichever condi (only) stats ? Probably because even the power portion matters. Which naturally promotes and proves the idea it being hybrid.

It’s still a condition set though.

Even the ele scepter does some damage on auto. You would really have to go out of your way to find a build that does enough condition damage to function but no skill damage to an enemy, if such a build even exists.

Same goes for the inverse. Plenty of power builds have some condition damage with them. I doubt many here would consider S/A-LB a hybrid build because of the bleeds from Sharpened Edges and the Lynx or a dagger thief a hybrid because they poison on auto.

The reason then Sinister and now Viper’s is the optimum set is because there is no 3rd stat for condition damage. If you don’t need to bring extra defensive stats, there’s no reason to not just slap on a power/precision boost. Even if you have 0 bonus ferocity and are hitting on a condition weapon that doesn’t do much damage to begin with, it’s better than nothing.

It’s not a commentary on the strength of hybrid builds as a concept, it’s about that fact that Power needs 3 stats to optimize damage while condi only needs 2 and the core tenant of minmaxing is to squeeze out every possible drop of performance.

Substance E.4852:

Tragic Positive.9356:

Substance E.4852:

It’s a condi build.

The overwhelming majority of your damage is from burns and some from bleeds, not from the piddly damage axe does to a single target.

Axe auto could do 0 damage and would probably have a negligible effect (assuming one isn’t a neurotic minmaxer) on your total dps in a fight against a raid or dungeon/fractal boss.

You still have the option.
And also – outside of raid content you do use axe #1 if you can. It can increase your might stacks up to 25. It can also deal damage to targets immune to conditions.

A condi build can’t do that.
Naturally – the most DPS that you can squeeze goes out of conditions but that changes nothing about hybrid DPS and uses of axe.
You are right. 90% of it’s damage goes from conditions. Which means……. Why no one uses Wanderer / Dire / Rabid / whichever condi (only) stats ? Probably because even the power portion matters. Which naturally promotes and proves the idea it being hybrid.

It’s still a condition set though.

Even the ele scepter does some damage on auto. You would really have to go out of your way to find a build that does enough condition damage to function but no skill damage to an enemy, if such a build even exists.

Same goes for the inverse. Plenty of power builds have some condition damage with them. I doubt many here would consider S/A-LB a hybrid build because of the bleeds from Sharpened Edges and the Lynx or a dagger thief a hybrid because they poison on auto.

Ok this is arguing semantics, but I’ll say it anyway. The difference here is you are using a hybrid WEAPON in a condi BUILD (if you’re using Rabid or Dire or whatever). Axe can work in a power build or a condi build and that is what makes it a hybrid weapon. And you’re right, there are a lot of hybrid weapons, and that’s probably intentional on Anet’s part. But LB and GS are straight power weapons (no skills that do condition damage), and Torch is straight condi (not because it does no power damage (it does) but because every skill does a lot of condi and most of its damage is from condi).

The reason then Sinister and now Viper’s is the optimum set is because there is no 3rd stat for condition damage. If you don’t need to bring extra defensive stats, there’s no reason to not just slap on a power/precision boost. Even if you have 0 bonus ferocity and are hitting on a condition weapon that doesn’t do much damage to begin with, it’s better than nothing.

It’s not a commentary on the strength of hybrid builds as a concept, it’s about that fact that Power needs 3 stats to optimize damage while condi only needs 2 and the core tenant of minmaxing is to squeeze out every possible drop of performance.

Generally I agree with the last part of what you said (i happen to like hybrid builds so Sinister and Viper are perfect for me). Precision tends to be a go to second stat for condi, just because of the number of traits and sigils that proc condi on crit. However (speaking very generally across professions), there is frequently a third stat that is desirable because of a trait that gives a % of that stat to condi damage. A couple rune sets do that as well (Undead for example).