Guild Wars 2

Pedra.4381:

I appreciate your input, but I don’t want to get hung up over symantics. I don’t care if the pet leaps off the wall, teleports off the wall, or gets beamed down by the Enterprise. What is the in-game rationale for the pet not being able to attack a target on the ground that is outside a tower or keep?

Probably the fact that right now, the pet can’t go where it can’t path to. And, unless there’s a hole in the wall, pets can’t path out of the tower/keep.

Have you guys considered removing the 45 sec cd on pet death? The experience in dungeons would be much less aggravating if we didn’t have to endure almost a minute of halved damage.

I mean, the whole point of the 15 second swap cd is as a roundabout way of providing pets the heal they don’t have so the ranger doesn’t have to waste his.

I just don’t see the point in the 45 second cd.

Also, why not have the attribute bonuses given by the other trait trees apply to the pet in addition to food? You could have the crit damage bonus line give the pet 80% crit dmg bonus so that with the 30% extra crit trait the pet can have 110% crit damage bonus just like a berserker geared player would.

The problem is that the pet is a considerable proportion of the player’s damage that doesn’t benefit from all these sources players benefit from, and it’s also part of the reason why this class falls behind other classes who get the full benefit of their gear (for other classes, their gears applies the bonus to 100% of their damage, not 50-60% of it like the ranger).

Damage difference between pets is huge as well. Moas and bears do significantly less damage than other pets. I can sort of see why on the bear, because he’s much tankier so he shouldn’t be hitting like a jaguar, but in the case of moas their damage is mediocre and the utility offered in a couple of vulnerability stacks and a high cd shout heal doesn’t compensate.

Also, the moa’s chain peck attack, for example, has them stand still so they often miss on a moving target.

I would like to give input on current Ranger behavior: Players are using Everlasting Tonics to stow their pets in combat. While this is bound to be fix, I hope ANET pays attention to this because it signifies the lengths players go just to make our braindread Reef Drake go away.

As for the skills themselves, I would also like to praise the update to Path of Scars because it gives Axe Off-Hand a great source of damage.

However I would recommend if ANET truly wants to buff Axe Off-Hand without significantly modifying skills, my suggestion is to revamp Whirl Finishers for use with Whirling Defense. At the moment, any Whirl Finisher of any sort is too inaccurate to use in a group, and most of the effects do not justify using a Whirl attack. The only time my healing shots from Water Fields actually hit are when my team is stacked exactly ontop of my as with the Subject Alpha fight. Likewise, if I use Bonfire and swap to my Axe to Combo Whirl with it, all this does is Burn foes who would have already been burned from being in Bonfire anyways.

In short, buff whirl finishers to not make them so redundant. Make Healing Bolts actually touch my party, and make Fire Bolts do something other than burn because it’s redundant.

Robert are you aware if we should expect any tweaks to pets this patch other than agony resistance?

Paken Kai.5970:

Pedra.4381:

I appreciate your input, but I don’t want to get hung up over symantics. I don’t care if the pet leaps off the wall, teleports off the wall, or gets beamed down by the Enterprise. What is the in-game rationale for the pet not being able to attack a target on the ground that is outside a tower or keep?

Probably the fact that right now, the pet can’t go where it can’t path to. And, unless there’s a hole in the wall, pets can’t path out of the tower/keep.

Thanks. I’m sure you’re right but to me, that just smacks of really lazy programming and a lack of concern about outcomes.

Pedra.4381:

Thanks. I’m sure you’re right but to me, that just smacks of really lazy programming and a lack of concern about outcomes.

If you know how to program an AI to path down a cliff, and still avoid damage, then I understand how you can see it as “lazy programming.” But, with the limitations of the AI (not understanding that a path down a cliff is acceptable, if not ideal), there’s not much that can be done to make pets leap off a cliff.

Bearing in mind, if they DID implement the ability to have pets leaping off cliffs, they’d probably be hit with the same damage a player would be for falling the same distance (even birds, because of the invisible stilts they are “walking” on), which would make you less likely to want to have your pet leap to its doom, into a mass of enemies.

many of you guys who want full uptime of pet with minimal involvement are essentially asking to do 40% of your damage at all times with no risk.

yeah, when you call your pet back you are losing 40% of your dmg (depending on your build) however, do you really think a theif/warrior/melee mesmer anyone in melee doesnt lose damage when they have to retreat?

i understand the desire to avoid micromanagement, but you should still have to manage your pet, just like a guardian or warrior can build and stat so that its less reactive and use general boons and other things so they dont have to react instantly, there is no way your pet(or any class at all) should be able to do 40% of your damage with no risk/tradeoff/player input.

the balance may have to be tweaked, maybe the benefit should be higher, and they really do have to look at the effect power creep they instituted with ascended gear is going to effect pet usability (perhaps we will need to ascend our pets) but what many of you are asking for (an unstoppable 40% ranger damage bot) is completely unreasonable.

Paken Kai.5970:

If you know how to program an AI to path down a cliff, and still avoid damage, then I understand how you can see it as “lazy programming.” But, with the limitations of the AI (not understanding that a path down a cliff is acceptable, if not ideal), there’s not much that can be done to make pets leap off a cliff.

But, there’s this magical ability called Guard that used to work and now doesn’t. It let pets “leap” off walls without damage before. The pet didn’t have to “find a path” through an open gate; it has changed. Why?

I get that they desired to change the outside in scenario, I don’t get the inside out change. That makes no sense.

phys.7689:

…what many of you are asking for (an unstoppable 40% ranger damage bot) is completely unreasonable.

That’s an inaccurate generalization of what most people are asking for.

Most rangers in this thread (and with whom I’ve talked to outside of this thread) don’t want an unstoppable AI beast that does 40% of our total damage. I know what I personally want is to be able to control as close to 100% of my damage as possible. If the AI beast following me around can’t be adequately controlled (in other words, if whether my pet lives or dies is not up to me), then I want most of that 40% of damage put back into my hands.

If my ranger accounted for, say, 90% of my damage (with my pet as the other 10%), then I would be much less irritated when 90% of my damage dodges out of the AoE but 10% does not, or when 90% of my damage can be dealt from on top of a wall while 10% cannot.

Pedra.4381:

But, there’s this magical ability called Guard that used to work and now doesn’t. It let pets “leap” off walls without damage before. The pet didn’t have to “find a path” through an open gate; it has changed. Why?

I get that they desired to change the outside in scenario, I don’t get the inside out change. That makes no sense.

Ah yes, the “magical” ability that was not functioning as intended and was changed to function as intended.

The reason the inside-out changed with the outside-in is because, to the game, they are the same situation. The pet is in a location that it can’t find a path to the location you are attempting to get it to. The game doesn’t care if you’re at the bottom of a cliff, or the top. If there’s not path, there’s no path.

Your pet is not magical in any way. It does not have access to a mesmer portal, nor can it shodowstep like a skelk.

Dear Robert

Since it might take a few months to give pets a better AI and better combat response.Can we use a simpler fix whilst waiting for that?

The problem with pet melee attack is that the pet requires to stop in its track and perform the attack animation,this will give ample time for a moving target to just get out of the way without using dodge or evasion.My suggestion would be to give all pet melee attack a hidden extension of range for example 400 units.The rooting effect will still happen with the attack animation but the actual dmg is ranged and will hit the target from a distance since by the time the attack animation starts,the target would be a few units away from the pet.This hidden extension of range should not be too far or else it will be too OP.

Problem with ranged pet attacks is that the projectile moves too slow.Another simple fix is using a part of “Beam technology” the one they mentioned in march SOTG for mesmer. By extending the width/radius of the projectile attack, it will increase the likelihood of hitting a strafing target via a wider beam hit zone.Piercing will be a bonus.

Hope this 2 fix can be implemented in the meantime until they come up with a better pet AI and combat response.

Thanks Robert

Paken Kai.5970:

Your pet is not magical in any way. It does not have access to a mesmer portal, nor can it shodowstep like a skelk.

If I were to use “Guard” to position my pet outside an enemy keep and I then run inside the keep before his “stay put” timer expires and the enemy repairs the door after I’ve run in, what innate non-magical ability is my pet using to get to me? He will, you know.

When I get too far from him in any scenario and he instantly appears at my side, what non-magical ability did he use to accomplish that?

I’m fascinated.

P.S.: Referencing your comment concerning fixing Guard to the way it was intended. So, in your estimation, a Ranger is so overpowered that ArenaNet decided that when in Keep Defense, a Ranger’s damage output should be reduced by approximately 40%-50%?

Hey Robert, would it be possible for you to transcribe some form of feedback from the devs on whats going to happen and when (roughly)? Spvp can be really frustrating when a good portion of my success is determined by how well I (lucky) circumvent the poor mechanics.

In all honesty I can deal with the kitten pet AI, I have gotten somewhat proficient at working around it. My grief lies with the sickening downed state bugs that should have been addressed long ago as well as just the poor flow of the weapons.

Shortbow – I love this weapon a lot, but if it was a person it would be a very abusive love/hate relationship.
Crossfire- a very weak autoattack that applies a short duration bleed when attacking from the side or behind. The problem with 1 is that you are a ranged character (I know guys, I was in shock too) and when you run into somebody who has a slight clue as to what your class does, they will just run straight at you, and take those awesome little 100 hits and regen through them.
Poison Spread – awesome to use at melee range, not so much at distance.
Quick Shot – hits for nothing, doesn’t work uphills and is not really noticable on flat ground either, bugs out often when you use it vs somebody in melee range.
Crippling shot – also hits for absolutely nothing, reliant on pet that cant hit moving targets to add a few pitiful bleeds,aaaaaaaaand bugs out in close range.
Concussive Shot – Awesome, or it would be, if it actually stunned from any position, since the challenge of the shortbow is to attack from the side. Value greatly diminished in general from the rampant amount of stability that’s available to most professions.

Longbow – I am not really going to go into this weapon, because it’s damage only has any kind of value when you go full glass, however due to lack of utility skills that would enable you to survive long enough to use it, I just do not touch this weapon.

Mh Axe- Honestly the auto attack is crap. I tried it with power or condi builds and its just doesn’t deliver any raw damage, worthwhile condi applications or any strategic advantages.
Splitblade is all right at pointblank range but is still very mediocre, the fact that we don’t have any real combo fields worth mentioning makes the 20% combo finisher attached to it feel pointless.
Winter’s Bite chill is really nice, but the problem is that the rest of the weapon has no real damage output and the pet weakness application is hardly the epitome of reliability.

Warhorn – Hunter’s call. From my experience casting this vs any competent player is akin to giving them a leg up in a fight. I’m not sure what tramatic event lead the developers to attach a 1.5 sec cast time to an ability that scales really “really” poorly with power, is not reliable with sharpened edges trait, and has a 25 second cd to boot. But I would like to offer my sympathy.
Call of the Wild – is awesome. 15 seconds of AoE swiftness, fury and might on 35 second cd with half a second cast time, make this ability very versatile and applicable in a lot of situations.

Sword – I am very unimpressed with the sword in general, it sums up best as annoying, for both the user and the receiver.
Slash – Unimpressive damage, given what the rest of the chain asks from you.
Kick – cripple, longer range, low damage but over all okay.
Pounce – Well… assuming the pet is nearby and not dead or rooted in some cc due to kitten pathing… the might application is good. Pardon the french and a shameless by pass of the profanity filter, but the leap can go kitten itself. This ability is a perfect simile to attaching a dumbell to yourself while climbing a mountain. Under regular (non slowed) circumstances the leap is not actually reliable to close the gap on somebody back pedalling, let alone running away. It is flat out disastrous to use on kyhlo with all the ramps and raised surfaces. Overall the damage on the 1 is crap and the little bonuses attached are a hinderence and I wish you would just remove them and be mean to the developer who signed off on the ability (passive aggressive).
Hornet Sting – the damage is crap, I have only found one reason to use this ability and that’s to leap back and switch back to short bow.
Monarch’s Leap – sounds really cool. the damage is abysmal, the 3/4 cast time a mockery of my humanity. All in all, both of these abilities need to be removed and redesigned from scratch. The leap in and out mechanic just doesn’t work. For one, aside from switching to a different weapon, I can’t really do anything from range that wont result in me loosing all pressure on an enemy, the leap back is redundant, has no purpose whatsoever, because I have to leap back to leap forward and both of those abilities have cast times they don’t actually accomplish the intended role of avoiding burst in a real fight. Even instant cast time wont redeem this ability. I cant really burst at a level of other professions with sword/x, so whats the point of a leap out and back in when it literally just lets the opponent breathe.
Serpent’s Strike – It’s decent vs melee opponents on flat terrain, but again, you would be a fool to use this on kyhlo (or in any place where you can fall off) since majority of the map will restrict you HEAVILY for using it. Against mid/long range opponents with half a brain cell, serpent’ strike can screw you over pretty badly, its fixed curved pathing just adds another challenge to close the gap.

Torch – fairly long cd burns, with a tiny fire field. The damage is good, but let’s be realistic, it has no real utility, it doesn’t really fit with any other weapon, and because of the fairly long cds, one condition removal defeats the weapon entirely.

OH Axe – it asks a lot from you and even more from your opponent.
Path of Scars – only “worthwhile” with power, but it doesn’t really hit for scary damage based on what it wants from you, it has to hit both times, as it travels in a line (hint: players dont stand still) it’s just a medium damage ability with baggage attached to it.
Whirling Defense – Well, it will buy 5 seconds for a bunker from a ranged class, that’s it. Nobody is dumb enough to stand in it, you cant move while channeling (5.5 seconds). So the question is, as a power based ranger, why take OH axe when one skill doesn’t do a lot of damage and the other doesn’t really offer anything.

Dagger – most rangers will agree that it is the best OH choice for a sword.
Stalker’s Strike – i like this ability a lot, it’s a no nonsense wont move you to Africa by going through the North Pole avoidance ability. decent condi damage for what it is, low cd. I like it.
Crippling Talon – Another great ability, a good bleed, decent initial damage and one of the few cripples that do not require an alignment of celestial bodies to occur.

Tl,dr. Ranger has two very big problems, a large portion of damage AND control is tied to the pet (which in my opinion should appear only in combat – as a short term solution), that problem is further intensified with how UNRESPONSIVE the abilities are, how much of a suspect the pet is to just die to random cleave damage due to the nature of the game. Players are expected to avoid the immediate center of melee opponents because that is the hack and slash zone as well as all the fields, pets can’t do that. The other problem are the weapons.

Robert, I am hungry and don’t want to write anymore or proofread ATM, GIVE ME A SIGN. This is going to be a long week in kyhlo.

Tibbel.3450:

phys.7689:

…what many of you are asking for (an unstoppable 40% ranger damage bot) is completely unreasonable.

That’s an inaccurate generalization of what most people are asking for.

Most rangers in this thread (and with whom I’ve talked to outside of this thread) don’t want an unstoppable AI beast that does 40% of our total damage. I know what I personally want is to be able to control as close to 100% of my damage as possible. If the AI beast following me around can’t be adequately controlled (in other words, if whether my pet lives or dies is not up to me), then I want most of that 40% of damage put back into my hands.

If my ranger accounted for, say, 90% of my damage (with my pet as the other 10%), then I would be much less irritated when 90% of my damage dodges out of the AoE but 10% does not, or when 90% of my damage can be dealt from on top of a wall while 10% cannot.

I didnt say most, i said many, because i dont really think its 51% or something, also i was specifically refering to people who dont want more control of their pets, and want them to have more uptime.

Very simple equation here.
A pet that can survive and thrive without any input from the player in difficult content is by definition a 40% damage bot. This is not a solution.

Now im not saying everybody is saying they want this, but more than a few in this thread are asking for that. As for the people who want to make the pet vestigal, i understand where they are coming from, however, it would make no sense. The class is a beastmaster class, i know many people wanted the marksman but that is simply not what the class is. It is a class that is about finding some balance between the ranger and the pet, using both to compliment each other, it may be falling short and need to be improved.

if you want a gw2 ranger without a pet, what you really want is a whole new class. i suggest you try to get them to make one, i think there is room for a marksman class, with a class mechanic of prepartions/ammunition. They could use rifles/bows/daggers/cqc with their F skills be about preparation.

Interesting idea, but its not really the wilderness beastmaster that ranger is.

btw since i mentioned new classes, im required to throw in, martial artist should be next proffesion!

You what just struct me… imagine the realism aspect of it. Would your pet if it was real jump off a cliff with you? doesn’t make sense.

Now in the non realism way. stow pet, jump, bring pet out. problem solved.

If in combat, pet swap on landing. if your pet is on a timer? then you haven’t been managing your pet properly.

I have yet to take my pet through fractals but I can tell you that it has been through just about every dungeon with a very high survival rate. Higher than most PuGs even.

Longbow Rangers can easily micromanage pets as they are standing well out of range to worry about agro. If you are within 900-1200 range, you are not playing it right. L2P.

If you are in the thick of melee or melee based Rangers. You shouldn’t be in melee long enough to warrant your pet being killed. Go in, hit hard, get out.

As stupid as the pet AI may be, you are supposed to manage your pet. If you use a glass pet (felines, birds) how can you expect them to live in a situation that a glass Ranger wouldn’t?

Common sense. My wolves have even tanked bosses (all be it with regen ticking on him as he does so. But that’s still a good 10 seconds of the boss not atking anyone else.

Really, it’s not that bad. It is a massive L2 kitten ue. Learn the class mechanics. Learn what synergies exist between skill/trait/weapon AND pet. It is a big learning curve but it can be done.

I… sadly have to sign a lot of what Kata says.

I recently started playing Ranger after a long while (last time in beta), because it was actually the class I originally wanted to play on release, but decided for a thief in the end.
After maxing out my Thief, Elementalist and Warrior in all kinds of builds and roles… I have to say that I’m utterly disappointed by the Ranger. She’s 80 with almost max stats now and it’s so sad to see that whatever I want to do with her – one of my other characters can do it better by a LOT.
I feel useless when going dungeons or fractals. Although useless may not be the right expression…. it’s more that I feel like a BURDEN to everyone since I know that I would be much more efficient if I had logged on one of my alts for that run. It’s just so sad.

I enjoy the class and its design (I always loved the idea of pet classes), but in most cases it’s more of a hinderence in being effective.
Alright, I don’t have nearly as much experience as most Rangers in this thread… but reading this thread shows me that many other people got the same gripes as I do.

I really want to enjoy PLAYING the Ranger, but right now I can’t. Whatever I do, I get painfully reminded that someone or even my alts could do it much better.

Maybe I still need to learn a few tricks… but so many other Rangers got the same problems. Problems that don’t even exist with the other classes.
I like the idea of having a more important class mechanic… but the fact that our class mechanic is vitally important to even be “effective” at all while other classes just push their F keys when they are ready or sometimes even >not at all< wink warrior just gives me a headache.

Other things like “Longbow damage is a joke” shouldn’t even have to be mentioned.
Everyone with common sense has to agree that right now the longbow is really awful.
Why do I do more damage with my shortbow (autoshots only without flanking) than with the longbow at max range and using Rapid Fire? It just drives me nuts…
And yeah… many of the issues have been described by Kata.

Ranger may be a fun and awesome class on concept (that’s why I want to enjoy playing it!), but right now the reality looks pretty grim.

Funny thing is… if I hadn’t played other classes in the same roles, I would be totally oblivious to how “bad” the Ranger performs. But seeing the direct comparison is just insane.

Please let there something be done, so I can finally enjoy the class I wanted to enjoy from my first beta weekend forward… :<

ps: please excuse my partially bad english

KensaiZen.3740:

You what just struct me… imagine the realism aspect of it. Would your pet if it was real jump off a cliff with you? doesn’t make sense.

• They do. Even my little yorkshire does. And birds just fly off…*

Longbow Rangers can easily micromanage pets as they are standing well out of range to worry about agro. If you are within 900-1200 range, you are not playing it right. L2P.

• That buff has to be activated when its near you. Lot of time and damage wasted.
  I suggested to always receive those boons on the user.*

If you are in the thick of melee or melee based Rangers. You shouldn’t be in melee long enough to warrant your pet being killed. Go in, hit hard, get out.

• We can’t hit hard!!*

As stupid as the pet AI may be, you are supposed to manage your pet. If you use a glass pet (felines, birds) how can you expect them to live in a situation that a glass Ranger wouldn’t?

• The management is crap, they reacting after many seconds, wasting many.*

Common sense. My wolves have even tanked bosses (all be it with regen ticking on him as he does so. But that’s still a good 10 seconds of the boss not atking anyone else.

• Yes, they tank well in low levels. Anywhere else, they just die.*

Really, it’s not that bad. It is a massive L2 kitten ue. Learn the class mechanics. Learn what synergies exist between skill/trait/weapon AND pet. It is a big learning curve but it can be done.

• I’m sure that many user here know exactly what the class is capeable of right now. We lack many many opportunity. Crap traits, skills, etc. Didn’t you noticed we’re fighting for these?*

1, if you jumped off a cliff. You wouldn’t be replying to my post

2, what buff? I was talking about waiting for the best time to send pet in and looking for the moment you need to call them back to avoid death.

3, cant hit hard? I came from playing a guardian. Rangers clearly out damage guardians easily and at range too! In melee with sword, the combined player and pet dmg is around 3k per critic. And it criteria pretty kitten often AND you can use quickness for short burst.

4, I can agree on this respect. It does feel clunky and not instant as it needs to be. Easily fixed though so hoping its in the works somewherr down the line.

5, my wolves tank dungeon bosses. When bosses do skills I get them the hell out and send them back in again. HotW boss is probably the easiest one. Want proof? I can make a video.

6, I am aware that the ranger needs some improvement. Here and there but some people go on like its the end of the world or that the ranger doesn’t play like a warrior.

Changes are most likely going to happen in line with Abets vision of the ranger. There will not be a class overhaul.

I just want the “pet fix” to be relevent to ALL pets.

Ranger spirits.
Necromancer minions.
Guardian spirit weapons.
Engineer turrets.
Thief guildthieves
Warrior banners. …Oh, wait, their pets are immortal. Nevermind. Good to know there is at least one set of pets not murdered by dodge-or-die…

phys.7689:

many of you guys who want full uptime of pet with minimal involvement are essentially asking to do 40% of your damage at all times with no risk.

yeah, when you call your pet back you are losing 40% of your dmg (depending on your build) however, do you really think a theif/warrior/melee mesmer anyone in melee doesnt lose damage when they have to retreat?

i understand the desire to avoid micromanagement, but you should still have to manage your pet, just like a guardian or warrior can build and stat so that its less reactive and use general boons and other things so they dont have to react instantly, there is no way your pet(or any class at all) should be able to do 40% of your damage with no risk/tradeoff/player input.

the balance may have to be tweaked, maybe the benefit should be higher, and they really do have to look at the effect power creep they instituted with ascended gear is going to effect pet usability (perhaps we will need to ascend our pets) but what many of you are asking for (an unstoppable 40% ranger damage bot) is completely unreasonable.

While I get what you are saying, pets that require micro-management to keep alive in normal fighting situations like many others have suggested, is not a solution either. This game makes you focus heavily on your character already and there are plenty of situations that make it impossible for the average player to maintain focus on their pet and character at the same time, let alone the extra keys and whatnot you would have to use to manage your pet.

The issue I see is that pets have too much down-time compared to the players. Right now a ranged character has insane up-time in fights, being able to strafe for no delay in attacks and the only thing stopping the up-time being dodges and healing. Even a melee character has a very high up-time as dancing around the enemy to avoid attacks, dodging through the enemy to minimize down-time, and using leap skills allow them to stay on the target.

Pets on the other hand have lousy up-times. They take longer to reach targets, have more trouble hitting them, have to run back after a swap, and go on lengthy cool-downs after a swap which can leave you without a pet for much of the fight. Even if pets had their swap cool-down removed they wouldn’t be all that better off up-time wise than players in PvE and would be worse than a player in PvP due to their inability to hit targets.

What I feel we need is essentially a unstoppable pet while the ranger is playing well. Pet survivability needs to be in the hand of the player, but this should not through management, but instead through something like a bond where the pet takes damage whenever the player does.

If a system like that, where the pets health was 2-3 times what it is currently and got AoE damage reduction, yet took damage whenever the player took damage due to its “bond”, it would allow the pets survivability and up-time to mirror the players without a need for excessive micro-management.

Since you are clearly not going to be swayed by my explanation of the situation as I can see it, I’m not going to bother trying to change your mind. I will however dignify your questions with a response, because they deserve answers as best as I can and others may be able to see things differently.

Pedra.4381:

If I were to use “Guard” to position my pet outside an enemy keep and I then run inside the keep before his “stay put” timer expires and the enemy repairs the door after I’ve run in, what innate non-magical ability is my pet using to get to me? He will, you know.

When I get too far from him in any scenario and he instantly appears at my side, what non-magical ability did he use to accomplish that?

I’m fascinated.

All sarcasm being ignored (yes, I can see it), I’m well aware of the teleporting the pet can do. Having your pet “magically” return to you when it’s “caught” on something is a much better situation than having it caught on a rock on the other side of the map (I’ll let people who don’t want their ranger to have a pet argue that point separately). If you’ve ever played any game where you have to escort somebody, but they can’t path around any deviation of their projected path (piece of rubble that you can easily walk around, or whatever), you know this to be fact. Most people are willing to suspend disbelief enough for this to not be a problem.

Having your pet teleport to you in cases where it gets out of range and having your pet teleport to any location you desire are two completely separate things. Your pet WANTS to be with you to defend you. With that in mind, your pet will refuse to go anywhere that it can’t return to you from (ie. the bottom of a wall when defending a keep). And, programatically, this is accomplished by having your pet need to be able to path to your target location. That is what is happening, that is why you cannot send your pet down from the wall, and that is why you cannot send your pet inside the keep from outside the wall. There is not other explanation. If you can’t accept this one, I’m not going to try to make you.

Pedra.4381:

P.S.: Referencing your comment concerning fixing Guard to the way it was intended. So, in your estimation, a Ranger is so overpowered that ArenaNet decided that when in Keep Defense, a Ranger’s damage output should be reduced by approximately 40%-50%?

Not at all, in my estimation, Anet decided the skill wasn’t working the way THEY intended it, so they changed it. There’s nothing you or I can do about that, except get over it and play with what you have. I never used to be able to send my pet down from a wall, and I no longer can. Was it nice to be able to when I could? Of course. But it was obviously not the intent of Anet that that should be possible. Otherwise they would not have changed it.

P.S. Just because I can see where they’re coming from, doesn’t mean I can’t see your side either. I actually agree with you on many points you brought up. I like being able to send my pet where I want it, but on the other hand, it doesn’t make sense to have your pet just randomly teleport to wherever you want it. In my opinion, when you set your pet to guard an area, it should do so, no matter where you are. It should also take any route possible to get to where you want it (even if that means jumping off a wall and taking damage). When your pet is guarding, the “leash” that is on it that teleports it to you when you get too far away, should no longer have any effect, allowing you to place your pet in a valid location letting you go into a keep, up the stairs and onto the wall without it leaving its spot. This is how it was in GW with the flags (aside from having the pet jump off cliffs if needs be), so I don’t see why it shouldn’t be possible in GW2.

Paken Kai.5970:

Since you are clearly not going to be swayed by my explanation of the situation as I can see it, I’m not going to bother trying to change your mind. I will however dignify your questions with a response, because they deserve answers as best as I can and others may be able to see things differently.

What I took issue with was your attempt to “have your cake and eat it too”. In other words, use programming limitations (or other “in-genre” explantions) to explain away something that both of us know is not the LIMFAC in pet behavior (because pets do routinely path through solid objects where no path exists and they do “magically” teleport). So, reality is that it’s the way it is for NO reason other than ArenaNet flipped a switch and made Guard no longer work as it used to. And it’s there, that decision, that I disagree with. And it is a decision, not a programming limitation (other than perhaps programming resource allocation).

It’s a poorly thought out fix to one specific problem. It takes without giving and without consideration of consequence (in this case, the consequence is that we’re even less effective in keep and tower defense). It’s like a surgeon removing a splinter by amputation. Yeah, the splinter’s gone, but it was a kitten stupid decision.

This week I pugged AC path 3, and solo’d CoF story with 20/20/0/0/30 using devourers and drakes:

Observations contain dungeon spoilers:
On the boss that throws walls of fire, I learned to position myself on the opposite side from my pet. That way when a wall of fire springs up around my pet, F3 could pull it straight out of it very quickly, and then F1 to immediately resume fighting. If the pet was to my side, the pet would run along the wall of fire taking more damage... it needed to run farther to be safe... and I usually had to move too to drag it far enough to actually get safe. Positioning made a huge difference.
On one CoF boss, I had to leave my pet on Guard at the back because of the mechanics. I wanted it safe and alive in case it needed to rez me if I slipped up. It was hitting walls that sprang up near the back, so it was doing "something."
On one CoF boss, I had to run around in a circle the entire time, dragging my pet behind me so it wouldn't get swarmed. I was able to F1+F3 them to land one attack before moving along. It was contributing low damage, but they seemed to have most of the aggro the entire time and swapping was easy. I wasn't taking much damage at all. I also used this dragged aggro-magnet tactic to clear a room of silvers.
On one CoF boss, the pets were tanking the main guy while I was evading the adds. Had to swap pets occasionally, but pretty easy.
The Effigy was the fight I had the most trouble with in CoF. I had the pets up front fighting, and was swapping between them all the time. I had pets die. I myself died a few times, and was rezzed by the pets a couple times. I progressively used more F3 to avoid more attacks aimed at the pet (not just the big AoE) and the fight got progressively easier.
A Drake traited to be tankier (heal on crits, self-regen), and left on Guard made a great graveling magnet while we smashed burrows.

General observations:

• Signet of the Hunt really helped. The pet moved faster, and I was able to move faster to drag the pet to safety sooner.
• If you are far from your pet when you hit F3, the pet will run far enough to get out of big AoEs. If you are too close to your pet, it may move a few steps and then stop, forcing you to drag it out of danger by moving yourself.
• If you can’t see where your pet is, or if other rangers are using the same pet in the same area, managing it is much, much harder.
• Having your pet only land 1 or 2 hits before being pulled out of combat is suboptimal damage (and the speed freaks will tear their hair out over it and possible kick you for it), but it is FAR superior to having a dead pet the entire fight and a long cooldown. The pet that contributes some damage, attracts some aggro, absorbs some hits destined for others, and stays in good shape to revive you… is far better than having a dead pet.

I posted my CoF story solo story in the dungeon forum:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Solo-Ranger-vs-CoF-story-a-picture-story

Daemon Hawk.9406:

Bri.8354:

In my opinion this can be achieved by decreasing the aggro pets draw while toughening up their health and damage reduction. This way the rangers pet could be very resilient without creating situations where they could hold the attention of and tank enemies.

In addition, a pet attacking should not make NPCs considered to be in combat. This way players cannot send in their pets alone to take down an enemy; a player needs to be fighting the NPC as well otherwise the NPC will gain health recovery.

This would break my game. I hate it when pets can’t hold aggro, and the idea of a mob getting to recover while I’m down but my pet is still attacking is awful. I see why someone would like your ideas, but I’d have to quit playing.

I think there is no reason why both sides can’t be satisfied here. Have an Agro value for each pet type, so maybe Moas and Birds have low Agro, Bears have high Agro. Therefore you can choose whether you want your pet to tank, or for you to have to kite.

Think about your current idea, Ratty. Aggro is going to have what affect on AOE attacks? Cleave attacks?

Sebrent.3625:

Think about your current idea, Ratty. Aggro is going to have what affect on AOE attacks? Cleave attacks?

Some but very little. Cleaves will be less likely to hit them if the enemy is not facing them.

But you note that the threads I copied were about pets agroing mobs in dungeon and how well they aggroed. I do definitely feel that pets should not agro when in passive mode. It would get rid of a lot of the really bad pathing issues dragging extra mobs it.

Low aggro is not 0 aggro. Do a high level fractal (26+) and run into grawl, ascalon, dredge, etc.. Dead pet when one of the horde of enemies decides to skin your pet.

Ratty.5176:

Daemon Hawk.9406:

Bri.8354:

In my opinion this can be achieved by decreasing the aggro pets draw while toughening up their health and damage reduction. This way the rangers pet could be very resilient without creating situations where they could hold the attention of and tank enemies.

In addition, a pet attacking should not make NPCs considered to be in combat. This way players cannot send in their pets alone to take down an enemy; a player needs to be fighting the NPC as well otherwise the NPC will gain health recovery.

This would break my game. I hate it when pets can’t hold aggro, and the idea of a mob getting to recover while I’m down but my pet is still attacking is awful. I see why someone would like your ideas, but I’d have to quit playing.

I think there is no reason why both sides can’t be satisfied here. Have an Agro value for each pet type, so maybe Moas and Birds have low Agro, Bears have high Agro. Therefore you can choose whether you want your pet to tank, or for you to have to kite.

This is already in play to some degree since aggro generally favors targets with higher armor.

Daemon Hawk.9406:

Bird in the game don’t really fly; they “walk” on invisible stilts, for the purpose of determining where they can and cannot get to. If your other pets are blocked by a fence, your bird is too. Flying is just an animation, but it’s still earthbound. Drives me bananas, but GW1 was the same.

They should either remove birds or give birds true flight. So annoying that the stupid bird cant actually fly.

Hey Robert… I hope I dont sound harsh, I sure dont mean it harsh because I appreciate you beeing here from time to time….

but could you do something?
I mean…
kick someone on the shins or something.
Rangers need something substantial and what we get is this?
Really?
Again?
/sadface

So, earlier in this thread, Robert Hrouda had told us that they did not want to reduce the damage Ranger pets take from AOE because then 2 rangers could solo a boss with proper pet management.

My problem with this “issue” with that “solution” to Ranger pets in dungeons is that we have videos like the following where you have a single player of a given (non-Ranger) class soloing one of the harder bosses in the game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye85Ad4LJqY

What does the thief do? Mostly just Sword auto-attack and #2 (Infiltrator Strike & Shadow Return).

So why, given that there are plenty of videos of other classes soloing content, is it a “problem” that two rangers (twice as many Rangers as other classes in those videos) are able to solo dungeon bosses?

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Idolicious.6091:

Pet dodge when the Ranger dodges? Who really thinks that is a good idea?

I sure as hell do not want to be the only class forced to blow their stamina due to stupid pet AI or their inability to not get destroyed by anything and everything that isn’t a singular white level 80 mob in the open world. Okay, I exaggerate (only a bit, mind you), but my point stands.

That has to be one of the dumbest suggestions I’ve ever heard (no offense to anyone), and I can’t even believe more than one single person thinks that it is a good idea.

If you don’t mean to give offense, than don’t say things that can easily be taken with offense. Just because the idea wouldn’t solve the problem, doesn’t mean it can’t be a springboard for other ideas.
“A way to make pets dodge would be good” is what I took away from it. What if a button existed that could make your pet dodge roll, or gave it evasion for a few frames (no animation!) It could be called the “Dodge!” button, and every time I used it I could make a DBZ Abridged joke to my mates on TS.

But that doesn’t solve the problem. It’s a cool thought that I can bring up with folks, but wouldn’t solve the problem of pets in dungeons while possibly adversely affecting PvP. Making the numbers bigger doesn’t work either (trust me, we’ve tried)

YES! Pet dodge! That alone could solve a good chunk of pet complaints!
I LOVE my pets, but in some dungeons, it is a little difficult to use them sometimes, but not all the time.

A dodge function (whether from a trait, utility (a shout I assume) or just a key binding) would be most welcome!

I can’t wait to see what you devs come up with!

-Jin

Sebrent.3625:

So why, given that there are plenty of videos of other classes soloing content, is it a “problem” that two rangers (twice as many Rangers as other classes in those videos) are able to solo dungeon bosses?

I asked this well over a month ago. I did not receive a response from Mr. Hrouda as he doesn’t seem to like to directly address issues. But, fear not, there are several players on here that will tell you this is both sweet and right (and may even deign to explain why).

How do you know what content you can solo unless you try? How do you know if you can solo the hard content unless you try really hard… you know… like with perserverance and stuff.

My worldview is not defined by what videos are or are not posted on youtube. I tried it. I did it. It can be done.

misterdevious.6482:

How do you know what content you can solo unless you try? How do you know if you can solo the hard content unless you try really hard… you know… like with perserverance and stuff.

My worldview is not defined by what videos are or are not posted on youtube. I tried it. I did it. It can be done.

You are missing the point. It is totally irrelevant whether or not you can do “it”. What is important is that the Developers think that TWO Rangers shouldn’t be able to do “it” collectively. So, the fact that you’ve done “it”, just means they’ve now even more ammunition with which to shoot the Ranger.

And there you have the explanation and “stuff”.

Aoe dmg recuction wouldn’t work in WvW anyway.
All piercing ranged skills, most melee swings – nearly all attacks are AoE in some way, so there are 2 options:
a) Give pet reduced dmg from everything that hits more than 1 target = pets totally OP, coz noone can actually kill them.
b) Limit reduction to ground targetted AoE = no real effect in WvW, as pets still would die from running in crossfire.

Idk about dungs. I use ranged pets there and they can survive more than some players… :P

misterdevious.6482:

How do you know what content you can solo unless you try? How do you know if you can solo the hard content unless you try really hard… you know… like with perserverance and stuff.

My worldview is not defined by what videos are or are not posted on youtube. I tried it. I did it. It can be done.

My point has nothing with whether or not a Ranger can currently solo a boss.

My point is that, given several classes have videos of them soloing bosses, why should a potential solution not be considered because it allows two rangers to take on a boss together?

The logic behind this appear lacking, hence why I’m requesting an explanation.

There is a huge difference between something being possible and something being trivial.

When I solo a dungeon boss, there is great risk. If I don’t dodge, I can get hit. I have even gone down and managed to get back up during the fight (let’s see a warrior rally that easily alone in a room with a singular boss). If I really screw up, I fail.

We tried giving them reduced damage from AOE/attacks, and it opened up other problems – mainly that a team of 2 rangers could take on almost any boss in a dungeon by smart swapping of pets and letting the pet take aggro.

Sounds like 2 rangers with pets that took reduced damage from bosses could let the pets hold aggro the entire time simply by pet swapping. The way he wrote that makes it sound like the encounters didn’t just become possible, they became trivial.

If it would trivialize it, then that is expalanation I was requesting.

However, perhaps they should move away from “Ranger pets can tank”. This game wasn’t designed around anything tanking anyways. It was designed around players avoiding damage (dodge rolls, blocks, etc.) to stay alive.

Perhaps making the pets not hold aggro that the players could easily take would fix this “issue”. It would probably also make it easier to scale the Ranger with other classes.

I don’t really mind if dungeon bosses can kill a pet. I mind that we take such a severe penalty for it, and that it takes a fairly long time to recover from it. 60 seconds is a long time to fight at marginalized effectiveness.

Ideally for me:
– add a trait effect allowing heal skills to revive a downed pet.
– add a trait effect reducing/eliminating the downed swap penalty

It’s OK for a pet to die, as long as we have a method for getting ourselves back into the fight.

What if the pet had a stack of X AEGIS TYPE BUFFS . Like for the few X hits it does not take damage irrelevant of the damage amount . But after that it would take normal damage .

In PvP it would be come trivial because attack speeds are pretty high , and players can always focus rangers and there is sufficient condition damage .
However this would fix boss fights entirely i think and other high level PvE content

The very obvious solution is to skew the ranger:pet damage/effect ratio more toward the ranger side and less toward the pet side. This would simultaneously make them less strong in open world PvE while making them stronger in PvP and dungeons.

Without the pet, the Ranger should be able to function at at least 80% the threshold of other classes. The pet should only function as a persistent tactical tool and a modest supplement to the Ranger’s damage capabilities. There’s a reason why every other MMO has it set up this way.

Einlanzer.1627:

The very obvious solution is to skew the ranger:pet damage/effect ratio more toward the ranger side and less toward the pet side. This would simultaneously make them less strong in open world PvE while making them stronger in PvP and dungeons.

Without the pet, the Ranger should be able to function at at least 80% the threshold of other classes. The pet should only function as a persistent tactical tool and a modest supplement to the Ranger’s damage capabilities. There’s a reason why every other MMO has it set up this way.

You’d think this is apparent to everyone. But apparently not, since Anet seems to think they can and need to reinvent the wheel so they can be different.

Terkov.4138:

Aoe dmg recuction wouldn’t work in WvW anyway.
All piercing ranged skills, most melee swings – nearly all attacks are AoE in some way, so there are 2 options:
a) Give pet reduced dmg from everything that hits more than 1 target = pets totally OP, coz noone can actually kill them.
b) Limit reduction to ground targetted AoE = no real effect in WvW, as pets still would die from running in crossfire.

Idk about dungs. I use ranged pets there and they can survive more than some players… :P

And why should you be able to kill pets to begin with, when they are the built in portion of the ranger’s damage? So if a warrior takes a certain amount of damage, should he lose 30-40% of his damage for 45 seconds?

Pets NEED to melee, unless you use ranged pets, whose projectiles are slow and damage is really bad.

Einlanzer.1627:

The very obvious solution is to skew the ranger:pet damage/effect ratio more toward the ranger side and less toward the pet side. This would simultaneously make them less strong in open world PvE while making them stronger in PvP and dungeons.

Without the pet, the Ranger should be able to function at at least 80% the threshold of other classes. The pet should only function as a persistent tactical tool and a modest supplement to the Ranger’s damage capabilities. There’s a reason why every other MMO has it set up this way.

Having just re-read this whole thread, I’m in agreement with Einlanzer. The only other changes I would ask for would be:

- Let melee pet attack while moving, even when it truly breaks the animation.

- Make ranged pets AI force them to maintain range.

- Have all the function skills be instant. As in, interrupt whatever action the pet is currently doing, no animation delays.

Zenith.7301:

Terkov.4138:

Aoe dmg recuction wouldn’t work in WvW anyway.
All piercing ranged skills, most melee swings – nearly all attacks are AoE in some way, so there are 2 options:
a) Give pet reduced dmg from everything that hits more than 1 target = pets totally OP, coz noone can actually kill them.
b) Limit reduction to ground targetted AoE = no real effect in WvW, as pets still would die from running in crossfire.

Idk about dungs. I use ranged pets there and they can survive more than some players… :P

And why should you be able to kill pets to begin with, when they are the built in portion of the ranger’s damage? So if a warrior takes a certain amount of damage, should he lose 30-40% of his damage for 45 seconds?

Pets NEED to melee, unless you use ranged pets, whose projectiles are slow and damage is really bad.

Warrior does 100% of dmg or 0% of dmg – depending if he can attack or is forced to kite/dodge. Thanks to pet, ranger can do part of his dmg nearly always (in theory).
Devouers dmg bad? If you compare everything to cats or birds, then gl.

Pets need to hit more reliably and not die to random AOE bursts in dungeons . That is all there is to it .

I’ve noticed that if you stick with long range pets, namely devourers, they’ll mostly be fine…and if they pull aggro, they pull off a nice distraction.

Terkov.4138:

Zenith.7301:

Terkov.4138:

Aoe dmg recuction wouldn’t work in WvW anyway.
All piercing ranged skills, most melee swings – nearly all attacks are AoE in some way, so there are 2 options:
a) Give pet reduced dmg from everything that hits more than 1 target = pets totally OP, coz noone can actually kill them.
b) Limit reduction to ground targetted AoE = no real effect in WvW, as pets still would die from running in crossfire.

Idk about dungs. I use ranged pets there and they can survive more than some players… :P

And why should you be able to kill pets to begin with, when they are the built in portion of the ranger’s damage? So if a warrior takes a certain amount of damage, should he lose 30-40% of his damage for 45 seconds?

Pets NEED to melee, unless you use ranged pets, whose projectiles are slow and damage is really bad.

Warrior does 100% of dmg or 0% of dmg – depending if he can attack or is forced to kite/dodge. Thanks to pet, ranger can do part of his dmg nearly always (in theory).
Devouers dmg bad? If you compare everything to cats or birds, then gl.

It’s called a rifle. Use it.

And of course devourer damage is bad. It’s autoattacks with full 30 BM amount to 800 damage every other second. On a slower projectile than bullets or ranger arrows.