Guild Wars 2

Before you say ‘’apples and orange’‘s. No, it’s apples and apples. They have so many similarities that I’m still surprised nobody is talking about Revenant (Renegade) shortbow.

Crossfire vs Shattershot :

• Bleeding : Crossfire do 1.5 secs of bleeding, 3 secs if flanking. Shattershot is always 3 secs, no need to flank. To get more Bleed, the ranger will have to trait Sharpened Edges, which is in a pretty bad shape. You need to have a high precision to make this trait valuable. If you don’t, just forget it.

• Piercing and bleed damage : Both have to be traited. LoyF only gives flanking bonuses (except Concussion Shot). Heartpiercer gives 25% bleed damage. In order to get more bleed damage, the Ranger will have to trait Hidden Barbs, which gives 33% more bleed damage.

Results : Crossfire is only good when Flanking, it’s sole advantage. Shattershot doesn’t need to flank and needs less investment to make it work, making it better for general play.

AoE :

• Ranger Shortbow has nothing of mention for AoE, but the Revenant Shortbow is one crazy AoE machine. Heartpiercer can pierces 5 target and Shattershot can AoE 5 targets. You know what they do ? One pierce = 5 AoE targets. 5 pierce = 25 AoE targets. Also, every hit do Bleeding.

Results : Just crazy AoE. They actually just mixed Crossfire and Fragmentation Shot of Engineer MH Pistol.

Condition Duration :

• In order to get longer bleed, the Ranger has to trait LoyF and has to dodge. Not just evade with Quick Shot, it has to use the Endurance bar dodge. It gives 10 % condition duration. (Always hated those dodging traits in order to get more damage, it’s just eh…).

• For the Revenant, it needs to trait Blood Fury, but it always gives 25% bleeding duration. No wonky mechanic glued to it, just a simple duration.

Results : Ranger Condition Duration trait is useless and most likely never used. Revenant is easy.

Fury and Critical Chance :

• Ranger : Hidden Barbs is against Spotter, which gives Precision. It’s a loss here. One would have WS traited with WK if playing a CRanger with Shortbow, which helps a little with the Fury uptime on a CRanger. To get more Fury from Skirmishing, the Ranger will have to swap weapon all the time.

• Revenant : It gets Fury when it crits a target below 50 % hp and more Critical Chance if a full endurance. A total of 53% critical chance increased. If the Revenant uses Roiling Mists, then it goes up to 73% without much investment from items or skills. Just pure simple traits.

Results : Revenant gets easier access to Critical Chance and Fury than Ranger. Revenant just needs to hit, Ranger has to use mid cooldown skills to triggers Fury.

Condition Damage : Deadly pets and Kalla’s Fervor:

• Deadly pets : Can give +200 Condition Damage and +100 Precision. CRanger, alone, will most likely not to have Might or not many stacks.

• Soulbeast’s Twice as Vicious : I’m so ashamed to mention it, but Condition Damage is Condition Damage. You have to disable (hard cc) to get a pitiful 5% condition damage buff that lasts 4 secs, big LOL.

• Kalla’s Fervor (12 secs easy stacking buff, aka permanent) : Non traited, it gives 10 % Condition Damage and 150 Ferocity. Traited, it gives 20 % Condition Damage and 300 Ferocity. With Heroic Command, it gives 5 might (150 Condition Damage, +150 Power) or 10 might (300 Condition Damage, +300 Power)

Results : Bleed Damage on Revenant just got higher than Ranger. Revenant gets more buff in general. Ranger just gets Deadly Pets small stats increase, but needs to get in Beastmode to get it.

Other skills :

• Bloodbane Path : Is a non projectile Rapid Fire that gives 3 bleed. Less damage, but shorter cooldown (3 secs). Closest comparison is Crippling Shot (12 secs cooldown Projectile) that will give 3 bleeding as a form of a buff in Beastmode.

• Sevenshot : Is an inverted Poison Volley. So far so good, until it you see it has 20% projectile finisher and Poison Volley don’t.

• Spiritcrush : Is a mix of Muddy Terrain Slow and (better) Flame Trap. All this, a non projectile at 900 range. Shorter cooldown, better burning and better damage than Flame Traps. But, hey, don’t make Traps throweable, they would be like Grenades engineer ! Now, now, a better comparison would be Narcotic Spores (Projectile ? Again !?) in Beastmode with the Iboga. Which does Confusion, which is a condition that ranger doesn’t have, so it means you won’t be able to stack it high. Thanks, but no thanks.

• Concussion Shot vs Scorchrazor : Concussion shot Daze if not flanking, Stun if flanking, 25 secs cooldown. Nothing else. Scorchrazor is an width aoe casted at range that KD and Burn, 10 secs cooldown. Scorchrazor might be slower and harder to hit someone with it, but it can be casted 3 times before you have a chance to cast a Concussion Shot that will only Daze if you didn’t flank your target. Oh and again, Scorchrazor is not a projectile and Concussion Shot is.

• Razorclaw’s Rage : Is an AoE shared Sharpening Stone, on a shorter cooldown. Yes, you can’t spam right away all the bleeds like Sharpening Stone. Yes, you can’t trait like Sharpening Stone to remove condition. Still, I had to make the comparison. It has pros and cons, which is alright.

Conclusion : Shortbow Ranger is getting shafted with clunky mechanic and underpowered traits that should be fused and buffed. The only place where Shortbow Ranger will shine is in PvP skirmishing/dueling style or Roaming, because of Quick Shot, but that’s it. The Revenant can use Shiro Riposting Shadows and do the same.

Mention : I tried to not include Renegade Utilities Skills, since you can also play without it. So, don’t come and be smartypants and say Renegade utilities are bad. Nobody forces you to use Renegade stance.

TLDR : Renegade Shortbow is Shortbow CRanger 2.0. Needs serious buff.

Forgot to add that Predator’s Cunning is very underpowered when you take in consideration Revenant Assassin’s Annihilation (trait), Focused Siphoning (trait) and Soulcleave’s Summit (elite).

Predator’s Cunning should works whenever you hit a poisoned target. NO ICD, like the Rev traits.

Mention 2 : I didn’t take in consideration the Revenant energy management, but hey you can simply swap stance to get your 50% back and keep spamming all you want. Meanwhile, the Soulbeast needs to get out of BMode, wait 10 secs, get back in BMode, get out, 10 secs, etc.

I also didn’t take in consideration the influence of the pet, but it’s a moot point outside of PvP. The pet is barely making any difference to overall DPS outside of PvP. + clunky pets, enough said.

Krispera.5087:

Before you say ‘’apples and orange’‘s. No, it’s apples and apples.

Lol! Thank you for this. I needed a good laugh today.

On the bright side, condi Rev gets stronger.

You didnt really address the fact that there’s energy costs and that rev sb doesnt really have defense. You’re comparing a single weapon that each have different advantages in different game modes. Also, one is an elite spec weapon, deliberately stronger than core weapons. Your post fails.

Snowywonders.1378:

You didnt really address the fact that there’s energy costs and that rev sb doesnt really have defense. You’re comparing a single weapon that each have different advantages in different game modes. Also, one is an elite spec weapon, deliberately stronger than core weapons. Your post fails.

APPLES TO APPLES!

APPLES TO APPLES!!!!

I love how I get some people worked up, when it’s a thread asking to buff Ranger SB, because it clearly lacks in many ways.

It’s really not a thread to bash on Revenant, but to show you the similarities done better in an another profession.

Snowywonders.1378:

You didnt really address the fact that there’s energy costs and that rev sb doesnt really have defense.

I did and the only defense Ranger SB has over Revenant SB is Quick Shot, which Riposting Shadows can be used to have the same and better results. So what else, do Ranger SB has as defense ?

As for Energy Management, I also talked about it and it’s difficult to talk about it, because it all comes to being subjective.

What you don’t take in consideration is low energy skill, like Shattershot that takes no Energy. 2, 3, 4 is still low energy. The only high energy skill is Scorchrazor.

What also you don’t take in consideration, is that you can swap Stance to get your 50% energy again. Now slap a short cooldown skill over it.

You want to talk about Energy Management, but you don’t talk about Cooldown on Ranger skills.

FYI, you get 5 energy every 1 sec. It takes 10 secs to get 50% energy. Since, people can say ‘’Energy Management’‘, but don’t come with calculations… Just say I use Scorchrazor, it has 10 secs cooldown. It uses 20 energy, which is 4 secs of waiting. 14 secs of ’’real’’ cooldown.

Snowywonders.1378:

You’re comparing a single weapon that each have different advantages in different game modes.

You fail the see the many similarities between the traits and skills. If Revenant SB skills and traits weren’t a copy paste from Ranger SB, then the thread wouldn’t have existed.

Snowywonders.1378:

Also, one is an elite spec weapon, deliberately stronger than core weapons.

Not quite the majority. Since we are in Ranger forum, is Dagger better than core Dagger professions ? The many threads about it seems to say it’s pretty bad.

Is the Rev or Chrono shield better than Warrior or Guardian ? I don’t believe so, they are all pretty good. Except, the Engineer shield.

Is DH LB better than Ranger LB ? Not really, they do similar damage, but completely different roles.

Is Thief SB better than Rev SB ? Not really, they have different purpose. One is flexible and support oriented, one is Condi oriented. I put them on the same ’’rank’’ of effectiveness. Yet, I don’t think I would put Ranger SB on the same level.

Snowywonders.1378:

Your post fails.

Your post bring nothing to take down my arguments. Did you even read ?

Low effort.

Dahkeus.8243:

APPLES TO APPLES!

APPLES TO APPLES!!!!

If you have no arguments and have no constructive answers, then you can go derail somewhere else or go back under the bridge you come from.

Ranger SB is more of a pvp weapon + raid weapon.

Renegade SB is more of PVE tagging weapon that’re better at fighting hordes.

Simple as that.

Renegade SB 2 and 3 are all terrible + waste of energy btw.
Renegade F2 is god-awful waste of energy too.
Renegade legend itself will only work in pve due to severe lack of functionality.
I’d even go as far as not using the legend itself entirely and just grab the traitline purely for the bonus stat. It’s a dps upgrade to many default Revenant build.

Aomine.5012:

Ranger SB is more of a pvp weapon + raid weapon.
Renegade SB is more of PVE tagging weapon that’re better at fighting hordes.

Agree. Ranger SB is more mobile and easier to control.

I have reservations, but I think it could become a Raid/Instance weapon with Mace/Axe rotation, just to get SB4 Burn and Fire field, and waste energy with SB3 and SB5 for the conditions.

Aomine.5012:

Renegade SB 2 and 3 are all terrible + waste of energy btw.
Renegade F2 is god-awful waste of energy too.

SB2 more PvP oriented. SB3 is more PvE and meh, its savior is the Projectile Finisher that can work with SB4 in Instance.

As for F2, despite its high energy, I think it can become a good Burn/Burst skill. If not used in Instances or PvP, it’s still very good in PvE and WvW.

Aomine.5012:

I’d even go as far as not using the legend itself entirely and just grab the traitline purely for the bonus stat. It’s a dps upgrade to many default Revenant build.

Yes, totally, the buff it receives from Kalla’s Fervor is solid. + Might and Alacrity sharing.
I can see the Utilities (Daze and soft CC) working well on a Power Hammer, but not on other kinds of build.

The Bleed sharing can become handy in an Instance/Raid setting. 10 bleeds for 5 targets, a total of 50 bleeds.

Didn’t really want it to become a Revenant thread, but it was kinda inevitable since I started with a comparison. I believe they could fuse some traits, like Hidden Barbs with Sharpened Edges and stop giving Ranger wonky traits that give temporary effects (4 secs 10% condition duration on dodge (not evade) and 4 secs 5% condition damage on hard CC)

Krispera.5087:

I believe they could fuse some traits, like Hidden Barbs with Sharpened Edges and stop giving Ranger wonky traits that give temporary effects (4 secs 10% condition duration on dodge (not evade) and 4 secs 5% condition damage on hard CC)

Yep. It’s all in the traits. Doesn’t help that condi traits are also spread thin across 3 traitlines (4 if using mainhand axe) while most professions have it condensed on 2; but that’s just condi. Power specs have it worse with damage modifiers spread out on 5 lines.

So one of the main weapons of the top ranger spec from HoT needs a buff? say what now?

I’ve been playing SB ranger for some time now, and I honestly think it is in a good spot.
Short Bow #2 skill is just so strong (I hope you are aware this can stack on 1 target if you are close enough)
Short Bow #4 and #5 are CC skills, and #3 is combined with #2 a much-needed mobility skill.

Skuzz.6580:

So one of the main weapons of the top ranger spec from HoT needs a buff? say what now?

Being Meta for Raids doesn’t make it a top weapon.

Skuzz.6580:

Short Bow #2 skill is just so strong (I hope you are aware this can stack on 1 target if you are close enough)
Short Bow #4 and #5 are CC skills, and #3 is combined with #2 a much-needed mobility skill.

I’m well aware of what a SBow can do, as you can see with my long ugly boring post. I’m also talking about weak traits it has to use to make it complete.

Poison Volley is strong, if you shotgun it. Not using at point blank ? It’s terrible.

Renegade SBow can do better, in every way, except maybe for skirmishing/dueling and mobility (thanks to Quick Shot). If you use Riposting Shadows (30 energy = 6 secs of waiting), it does nearly the same as Quick Shot at the same cooldown, but instead to just give Swiftness, it stun breaks and remove movement-impairing conditions. Or use Lightning Reflexes at 40 secs cooldown untraited.

Krispera.5087:

Before you say ‘’apples and orange’‘s. No, it’s apples and apples.

" Why can’t fruit be compared?! "

lol

I just came here to say lazy design and low effort work derives in bad results.

the firebrand gets in a minor trait (baseline) 250 increase in toughness, healing power and condition damage.

In the parts were the soulbeast is merged it doesn’t make up for the awful multipliers and terrible skills. And the traits don’t benefit the soulbeast weapon or condition at all. And the most of the pet skills are a disgrace of design. Skills they didn’t even need to create, just choose the coolest\most useful of each family.

SB is not a difference. Hundreds of ideas here in the forum, none it taken. They don’t care about what you have to say here.

Terrible.

Krispera, thanks for the solid comparison.

and a Typical reaction from the crowd…

Did anyone read the whole thing? (snowywondesr, fail? L2R.)

2 Trolls- Razor and Dahkeus. /sigh

The one guy that thinks everything is fine- Skuzz.

and Anduriell, I don’t disagree but dmn, you’re always ready to throw mud.

for everyone else that is even more casual than me,
!stop mentioning sbow in the same sentence as spvp!

EnderzShadow.2506:

Krispera, thanks for the solid comparison.

and a Typical reaction from the crowd…

Did anyone read the whole thing? (snowywondesr, fail? L2R.)

2 Trolls- Razor and Dahkeus. /sigh

The one guy that thinks everything is fine- Skuzz.

and Anduriell, I don’t disagree but dmn, you’re always ready to throw mud.

for everyone else that is even more casual than me,
!stop mentioning sbow in the same sentence as spvp!

I didn’t realize I was a troll :\
I thought I was just agreeing with the OP by sharing a funny reference.

Krispera.5087:

If you have no arguments and have no constructive answers, then you can go derail somewhere else or go back under the bridge you come from.

Your post is built on such a flimsy, ridiculous premise that there’s nothing really constructive to answer with.

Your list of similarities doesn’t matter when there’s an even longer list of differences that matter even more.

You’re also arguing for one of the strongest weapons in the PvE meta for the class.

Dahkeus.8243:

Krispera.5087:

If you have no arguments and have no constructive answers, then you can go derail somewhere else or go back under the bridge you come from.

Your post is built on such a flimsy, ridiculous premise that there’s nothing really constructive to answer with.

If it is so, don’t participate. You brought nothing.

Dahkeus.8243:

Your list of similarities doesn’t matter when there’s an even longer list of differences that matter even more.

What are those long list of differences ? That matter more ? I’m here talking strictly about traits and skills that are similar.

You wanted me to talk about Grace of the Land, Frost and Sun spirit ? (Which are the only things left, with the coming of PoF, that will make Ranger meta in Raids) When they have nothing to do with it ? You want me to talk about Alacrity from Renegade then ?

If you see no problem with Crossfire needing to flank to get 3 secs of bleed and that Shattershot does it without flanking… Good, then the discussion doesn’t matter to you.

Dahkeus.8243:

You’re also arguing for one of the strongest weapons in the PvE meta for the class.

Oh yes, the weapon that you only use when Axe/Torch is on cooldown as an afterthought. LoyF, the SBow trait, not even traited ! Sure, leave it that way.

Again, brought nothing to the discussion, but snarky comments. Easier to brush off something than coming with something.

If you have information, because it seems I clearly don’t get it, by your tone and comments, then be happy to share it with us.

I fully agree with you that Lotf should be on evade not dodge. It would synergize well with primal reflexes, strider’s defense and steady focus. Not to mention that ranger weapons have plenty of evades built into them. I also agree that the flanking bonus shouldn’t be required for base shortbow1/2 although I’m ok with the added flanking bonus on LotF (this increases base duration for 1/2/4 on top of also increasing 10% for all conditions).
————
That being said, I don’t agree with the rest of your post as there’s a major flaw. Going to focus on just PvE numbers although this is relevant for all game modes.

Condi Rev
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAFy0uEMLCo

Condi Ranger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hviYpadmETA

Bleed ticks from condi ranger range from 11k to 19k.
Bleed ticks from condi rev range from 800-1500 (Just geomancy procs)
So yeah… 33% bonus bleed vs 25% bonus bleed… not apples to apples.

While I get the impression you actually play ranger, I don’t get that with Rev. Energy is a much bigger problem than you state and it’s not subjective. If you spam just shortbow 2 on CD for max bleeding, that’s 5 energy every 3 seconds when you gain 5 energy every second. That’s 1/3 of your energy for just spamming that “low energy skill.” If you spam shortbow 3 on CD, that’s 10 energy every 6 second so that’s also 1/3 of your energy right there. Short bow 4 also looks like a good burst skill and that’s 15 energy every 8 seconds. Shiro for a 30 energy stun break, Kalla with “aoe sharpening stones” with 25 energy, heroic command which costs 20 energy, and a heal that costs 10 energy. You don’t just wait 6 seconds to get a stunbreak unless you do nothing but auto attack. There is also a glaring lack of mallyx/corruption which any condi Rev/renegade in PvE or PvP is going to take while you mention invocation, devastation and obviously renegade. Of mace/axe+staff, which weapon does the shortbow replace for PvP? Staff and a you have no defense. Mace/Axe and reflects will stop most of your condi application. Your hypothetical condi renegade with a shortbow doesn’t get to invoke 3 legends with 4 trait lines and spam all skills because “energy is subjective.” More importantly the bleeds aren’t going to hit anywhere close to what condi ranger/druid/soulbeast bleeds will.

Now, I like it better. It does challenge my view I have about SBow CRanger.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Bleed ticks from condi ranger range from 11k to 19k.
Bleed ticks from condi rev range from 800-1500 (Just geomancy procs)
So yeah… 33% bonus bleed vs 25% bonus bleed… not apples to apples.

We can’t really know right now the full bleed damage, but I agree with you. Just looked into it, Rev doesn’t have many bleeding skills beside SB1, SB2 and AoE Sharpening Stones. The bleed damage won’t compete with CRanger : Splitblade (5) and Winter’s Bite (3). SBow has Crossfire (1) and Crippling Shot (3 on SBeast) + Sharpening Stones (10). SBeast : Bristleback F1 (3), F2 (5). Primal Cry (3)

About the Burn, I’m sure it will surpass CRanger with Mace/Axe and SB4.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

While I get the impression you actually play ranger, I don’t get that with Rev. Energy is a much bigger problem than you state and it’s not subjective. If you spam just shortbow 2 on CD for max bleeding, that’s 5 energy every 3 seconds when you gain 5 energy every second. That’s 1/3 of your energy for just spamming that “low energy skill.” If you spam shortbow 3 on CD, that’s 10 energy every 6 second so that’s also 1/3 of your energy right there. Short bow 4 also looks like a good burst skill and that’s 15 energy every 8 seconds. Shiro for a 30 energy stun break, Kalla with “aoe sharpening stones” with 25 energy, heroic command which costs 20 energy, and a heal that costs 10 energy. You don’t just wait 6 seconds to get a stunbreak unless you do nothing but auto attack.

Yes indeed, I play Ranger more than my Revenant. It’s a bias.

That’s true, if you keep spamming your skills, it does drain your energy. The advantage of the Rev, can be also a bad thing. It has a lower cooldown on skills, but it doesn’t mean it should spam the skills it has available. It’s the same with any other profession skills, you don’t spam your skills or you won’t have any left to use.

1 sec = 5 energy. So at the end, even if you keep spamming SB2, you still get +10 energy every 3 secs (15-5=10). If it wasn’t of the cooldown, people would keep spamming skills and cry about energy management.

If I use Lightning Reflexes, I should be very sure to use it, because it’s on a long cooldown. The advantage the Rev has with Riposting Shadows, is that energy will regenerate and he will be able to use it whenever he has 30 energy (6 cooldown). One has a 32/40 cooldown penalty, one has 6 secs of penalty if it only uses AA, but we know it won’t most likely happen. So, it not might be 6 secs cooldown, but I’m pretty sure it’s shorter than 32/40 secs of cooldown. That’s why I say it’s hard to compare, because both system have pros and cons, in different situations.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

There is also a glaring lack of mallyx/corruption which any condi Rev/renegade in PvE or PvP is going to take while you mention invocation, devastation and obviously renegade. Of mace/axe+staff, which weapon does the shortbow replace for PvP? Staff and a you have no defense. Mace/Axe and reflects will stop most of your condi application. Your hypothetical condi renegade with a shortbow doesn’t get to invoke 3 legends with 4 trait lines and spam all skills because “energy is subjective.”

That’s why I was talking about projectiles in my other skills part : Renegade SB2, SB4, SB5 are not projectiles (Actually, I have reservations for SB2 and SB5. I don’t see SB2 getting reflected back at us, but SB5 might (needs testing)). I don’t think it would be safe to remove the Staff, so it will be between Mace/Axe and SBow.

All Ranger SBow skills are projectiles. What happen with a Condi SBeast ? Staff is out. It will only have Sword, GS and Dagger left if he doesn’t want to get reflected.

I also don’t think Renegade Stance is PvP worthy (high energy utilities and not very useful in PvP). It will be most likely Shiro/Mallyx or Shiro/Jalis that will be played with Renegade. I see a good synergy with Devastation, Corruption and Renegade. Changing Devastation to something else if too squishy.

‘’Energy is subjective’’, might not be the best words I used, but I believe Revenant has to manage their energy, the same as other profession have to manage their cooldowns. Having Energy is not a free pass to spam the skills, which people seem to think and do. Stance Swap also helps Revenant a lot with the energy management.

For PvP, I’m holding my comments and still have reservations (Will see at PoF forreal), but I still say, and said, that SBow Ranger is better in dueling settings. It has better mobility and cleanses.

Thank you for your comments. Not everything is black and white and you brought food for thought.

Isn’t the bleeding for cRenegade just icing on the cake since non-moving Torment damage in PvE was scaled up to equal bleed damage?

Sure, it might not put out as much Bleeding as cRanger, but it does that damage with Torment and condi damage modifiers with Kalla and a gm minor in Corruption. cRanger gets away with Hidden Barbs only when there’s another with Spotter.

I am sorry but you are comparing apples vs oranges

You are comparing a weapon that requires an entire trait line just to be able to use it.
While ranger SB can be used with both elite specs with any trait line

Although I agree that SB needs buffs, but have you ever used SB in duels and PvP? I think its the most amazing weapon for small skirmishes.

Kind of weird to compare the weapons without looking at the bigger picture in any way. But since you brought up build viability:

The future cRanger 2.0 will be the Soulbeast. Mark my words.
We might even see a melee ranger for raids with dagger/torch + dagger/dagger.
Utilizing the new condition damage heavy auto attack and the ability to keep resetting both Bon Fire and the new Double Arc skill on dagger with that versatility monster of a trait that is Quick Draw.
Now combine this this with the ability to fuse with a Deadly type pet for an extra +200 condition damge +100 precision and Primal Cry for even more bleeds and you have one strong condition build.

EnderzShadow.2506:

Krispera, thanks for the solid comparison.

and a Typical reaction from the crowd…

Did anyone read the whole thing? (snowywondesr, fail? L2R.)

2 Trolls- Razor and Dahkeus. /sigh

The one guy that thinks everything is fine- Skuzz.

and Anduriell, I don’t disagree but dmn, you’re always ready to throw mud.

for everyone else that is even more casual than me,
!stop mentioning sbow in the same sentence as spvp!

He’s not really incorrect.
The minor trait and most of the major traits of Soulbeast are terrible.
We already have one of the lowest dps power build of any class, and Soulbeast will make it even worse than now with pathetic traitline and losing tiger.

Guardian is dishing out 34k dps easily while power ranger is dishing out around 22~23k with the support of fully buffed pet lolz.. (Which means you actually need to grab Nature magic over Marksmanship if you want your pets to get all the buffs, which will then decrease the dps to around 20k)
A support class doing way more damage than a damage class, typical Anet.

I expect Soulbeast to reach a new low after the Maul bug is fixed.
I thought we’re getting a dps elite specialization but nope, we’re losing dps and getting trash pet skills and terrible traitline.

Only thing worth mentioning is the Stance, and it’s only good because most of the utility of ranger is terrible without traitline support. Most other class have their useless skills change to Ammo system (like Ele’s arcane), but Ranger’s useless utilities still remains outdated with long cd and no Ammo system.

PS: Firebrand can reach around 40+ stacks of burning, probably will be a new condition meta on par with Condition Tempest.

PS2: Deadeye will be the new buff machine that grants might and quickness to the party and they get massive damage bonus from Deathmark

PS3: Holosmith will be the new meta for Power Engineer.

PS4: Scourge would be the new Meta for condition Necro.

PS5: Ranger will still be the pathetic Druid support after this cuz Soulbeast suck in general. I suspect they’d be even less useful than Druid when it comes to WvW solo roaming and PVP, making it useless in every game-mode.

Henry.5713:

Kind of weird to compare the weapons without looking at the bigger picture in any way. But since you brought up build viability:

The future cRanger 2.0 will be the Soulbeast. Mark my words.
We might even see a melee ranger for raids with dagger/torch + dagger/dagger.
Utilizing the new condition damage heavy auto attack and the ability to keep resetting both Bon Fire and the new Double Arc skill on dagger with that versatility monster of a trait that is Quick Draw.
Now combine this this with the ability to fuse with a Deadly type pet for an extra +200 condition damge +100 precision and Primal Cry for even more bleeds and you have one strong condition build.

So which traitline are you giving up?
Think about it:
You grab Soulbeast and BM as basic cuz every ranger kinda need this, especially SB.
You need Wilderness Survival for your condition build to work.
You need Skirmishing for your condition build to work.
You need Nature Magic to share boons with your pet.

So tell me, if you grab Soulbeast, how do you let your condition build to even function?
Ranger traitline is spreading all over the place, and Soulbeast provide nothing good and requires you to grab the core ranger traitline to even function.

I’m not speculating anything, I test Soulbeast and all other Espec during the beta.
The only build that can function as Soulbeast is the currently bugged Maul power build because it takes less trait-line to function as power ranger.
You can grab BM, SB, Skirmishing for maximum damage.
But power ranger already have the lowest dps of almost all power spec, and dropping pet as Soulbeast hurt the dps even more. If you don’t become Soulbeast you lose bonus damage from Maul and beastform has a 10 sec CD so you can’t just merge when you use Maul and cancel merge when your Maul on CD.

Henry.5713:

Kind of weird to compare the weapons without looking at the bigger picture in any way. But since you brought up build viability:

The future cRanger 2.0 will be the Soulbeast. Mark my words.
We might even see a melee ranger for raids with dagger/torch + dagger/dagger.
Utilizing the new condition damage heavy auto attack and the ability to keep resetting both Bon Fire and the new Double Arc skill on dagger with that versatility monster of a trait that is Quick Draw.
Now combine this this with the ability to fuse with a Deadly type pet for an extra +200 condition damge +100 precision and Primal Cry for even more bleeds and you have one strong condition build.

Dagger offhand will never see play in a DPS build unless they multiply the damage output by 10. Axe will always be a superior option if you have Torch in the other offhand.

Aomine.5012:

Henry.5713:

Kind of weird to compare the weapons without looking at the bigger picture in any way. But since you brought up build viability:

The future cRanger 2.0 will be the Soulbeast. Mark my words.
We might even see a melee ranger for raids with dagger/torch + dagger/dagger.
Utilizing the new condition damage heavy auto attack and the ability to keep resetting both Bon Fire and the new Double Arc skill on dagger with that versatility monster of a trait that is Quick Draw.
Now combine this this with the ability to fuse with a Deadly type pet for an extra +200 condition damge +100 precision and Primal Cry for even more bleeds and you have one strong condition build.

So which traitline are you giving up?
Think about it:
You grab Soulbeast and BM as basic cuz every ranger kinda need this, especially SB.
You need Wilderness Survival for your condition build to work.
You need Skirmishing for your condition build to work.
You need Nature Magic to share boons with your pet.

So tell me, if you grab Soulbeast, how do you let your condition build to even function?
Ranger traitline is spreading all over the place, and Soulbeast provide nothing good and requires you to grab the core ranger traitline to even function.

I’m not speculating anything, I test Soulbeast and all other Espec during the beta.
The only build that can function as Soulbeast is the currently bugged Maul power build because it takes less trait-line to function as power ranger.
You can grab BM, SB, Skirmishing for maximum damage.
But power ranger already have the lowest dps of almost all power spec, and dropping pet as Soulbeast hurt the dps even more. If you don’t become Soulbeast you lose bonus damage from Maul and beastform has a 10 sec CD so you can’t just merge when you use Maul and cancel merge when your Maul on CD.

You were able to test a fully min-maxed condition soulbeast against the golem or in the actual raid environment? If so then I might be wrong about it.
I was strictly talking about a condition soulbeast to replace the current condition ranger. Not talking about replacing druids or about any other game mode. That would be a whole other discussion.

Henry.5713:

Aomine.5012:

Henry.5713:

Kind of weird to compare the weapons without looking at the bigger picture in any way. But since you brought up build viability:

The future cRanger 2.0 will be the Soulbeast. Mark my words.
We might even see a melee ranger for raids with dagger/torch + dagger/dagger.
Utilizing the new condition damage heavy auto attack and the ability to keep resetting both Bon Fire and the new Double Arc skill on dagger with that versatility monster of a trait that is Quick Draw.
Now combine this this with the ability to fuse with a Deadly type pet for an extra +200 condition damge +100 precision and Primal Cry for even more bleeds and you have one strong condition build.

So which traitline are you giving up?
Think about it:
You grab Soulbeast and BM as basic cuz every ranger kinda need this, especially SB.
You need Wilderness Survival for your condition build to work.
You need Skirmishing for your condition build to work.
You need Nature Magic to share boons with your pet.

So tell me, if you grab Soulbeast, how do you let your condition build to even function?
Ranger traitline is spreading all over the place, and Soulbeast provide nothing good and requires you to grab the core ranger traitline to even function.

I’m not speculating anything, I test Soulbeast and all other Espec during the beta.
The only build that can function as Soulbeast is the currently bugged Maul power build because it takes less trait-line to function as power ranger.
You can grab BM, SB, Skirmishing for maximum damage.
But power ranger already have the lowest dps of almost all power spec, and dropping pet as Soulbeast hurt the dps even more. If you don’t become Soulbeast you lose bonus damage from Maul and beastform has a 10 sec CD so you can’t just merge when you use Maul and cancel merge when your Maul on CD.

You were able to test a fully min-maxed condition soulbeast against the golem or in the actual raid environment? If so then I might be wrong about it.
I was strictly talking about a condition soulbeast to replace the current condition ranger. Not talking about replacing druids or about any other game mode. That would be a whole other discussion.

My point is do you think the Soulbeast can replace Skirmishing or WS when it comes to condition spec?

Can Soulbeast reach the current Condition spec 30k dps benchmark?
Which traitline are you going to sacrifice in order to grab Soulbeast?
Is it even worth it? Would the dps really be higher?

Aomine.5012:

Henry.5713:

Aomine.5012:

Henry.5713:

Kind of weird to compare the weapons without looking at the bigger picture in any way. But since you brought up build viability:

The future cRanger 2.0 will be the Soulbeast. Mark my words.
We might even see a melee ranger for raids with dagger/torch + dagger/dagger.
Utilizing the new condition damage heavy auto attack and the ability to keep resetting both Bon Fire and the new Double Arc skill on dagger with that versatility monster of a trait that is Quick Draw.
Now combine this this with the ability to fuse with a Deadly type pet for an extra +200 condition damge +100 precision and Primal Cry for even more bleeds and you have one strong condition build.

So which traitline are you giving up?
Think about it:
You grab Soulbeast and BM as basic cuz every ranger kinda need this, especially SB.
You need Wilderness Survival for your condition build to work.
You need Skirmishing for your condition build to work.
You need Nature Magic to share boons with your pet.

So tell me, if you grab Soulbeast, how do you let your condition build to even function?
Ranger traitline is spreading all over the place, and Soulbeast provide nothing good and requires you to grab the core ranger traitline to even function.

I’m not speculating anything, I test Soulbeast and all other Espec during the beta.
The only build that can function as Soulbeast is the currently bugged Maul power build because it takes less trait-line to function as power ranger.
You can grab BM, SB, Skirmishing for maximum damage.
But power ranger already have the lowest dps of almost all power spec, and dropping pet as Soulbeast hurt the dps even more. If you don’t become Soulbeast you lose bonus damage from Maul and beastform has a 10 sec CD so you can’t just merge when you use Maul and cancel merge when your Maul on CD.

You were able to test a fully min-maxed condition soulbeast against the golem or in the actual raid environment? If so then I might be wrong about it.
I was strictly talking about a condition soulbeast to replace the current condition ranger. Not talking about replacing druids or about any other game mode. That would be a whole other discussion.

My point is do you think the Soulbeast can replace Skirmishing or WS when it comes to condition spec?

Can Soulbeast reach the current Condition spec 30k dps benchmark?
Which traitline are you going to sacrifice in order to grab Soulbeast?
Is it even worth it? Would the dps really be higher?

So you did not have a chance to try a min-maxed build like the rest of us then. Meaning both of our opinions are just assumptions in the end.

There are quite a few reason why I think this is an improvement over the base condition ranger.

I’d replace Beastmastery with Soulbeast. Beastmastery is already the weakest link as far as condition rangers are concerned. Honed Axes will no longer be as useful if we swap over to mainhand dagger. It will be completely useless if we continue to use shortbow as our second weapon set next to dagger/torch.
Any potential pet damage traits will be inconsequential assuming we are in Viper gear and also spend the majority of our time in the beast form for that +200 condition damage +100 precision passive effect from “Deadly” pet such as the Lynx.

The build would work around replacing the mainhand axe with a more powerful condition based weapon – the dagger. It would also include the passive condition damage from staying in beast form.
Both Beastmastery as well as Soulbeast have pretty kittenty condition damage traits, we can agree on that one. But Oppressive Superiority is at least something compared to anything in Beastmastery if you aren’t using axes. We might be able to replace Krait runes with the old Nightmare/Trapper mix or go for a sigil of malice on the weapons thanks to that extra 10% condition duration from the trait.
Ambidexterity as well as Poison Master have better synergy with mainhand dagger on top of that and would also profit from the old Nightmare/Trapper runes over Krait.
There are also the usuable F1-F2-F3 beast mode abilities coming from pets such as Bristleback. Most of which provide additional condition damage based attacks.

Krispera.5087:

Dahkeus.8243:

Krispera.5087:

If you have no arguments and have no constructive answers, then you can go derail somewhere else or go back under the bridge you come from.

Your post is built on such a flimsy, ridiculous premise that there’s nothing really constructive to answer with.

If it is so, don’t participate. You brought nothing.

Dahkeus.8243:

Your list of similarities doesn’t matter when there’s an even longer list of differences that matter even more.

What are those long list of differences ? That matter more ? I’m here talking strictly about traits and skills that are similar.

You wanted me to talk about Grace of the Land, Frost and Sun spirit ? (Which are the only things left, with the coming of PoF, that will make Ranger meta in Raids) When they have nothing to do with it ? You want me to talk about Alacrity from Renegade then ?

If you see no problem with Crossfire needing to flank to get 3 secs of bleed and that Shattershot does it without flanking… Good, then the discussion doesn’t matter to you.

Dahkeus.8243:

You’re also arguing for one of the strongest weapons in the PvE meta for the class.

Oh yes, the weapon that you only use when Axe/Torch is on cooldown as an afterthought. LoyF, the SBow trait, not even traited ! Sure, leave it that way.

Again, brought nothing to the discussion, but snarky comments. Easier to brush off something than coming with something.

If you have information, because it seems I clearly don’t get it, by your tone and comments, then be happy to share it with us.

You’re having a lot of trouble understanding, but instead of talking anymore about the trees, let’s take a step back, because you’ve lost perspective of the forest.

GW2 is an MMO. It’s not chess or checkers, so balance is never entirely about what is “fair”. Making sure that things aren’t too unfair is a part of balance, but it’s not what it’s all about.

Classes/professions in MMOs are supposed to be distinct. This is part of what makes those classes appealing to players and part of what makes the game fun. This is at the heart of why balance in MMOs will never be entirely fair. To some degree, you can keep things fair by having different classes fill distinct roles, similar to how a rook is different than a knight in chess, but sometimes that’s thrown out the window in favor of making something fun.

Maintaining the distinct differences to classes not only allows for customization that fits the theme of a class, but it also keeps the experience of playing a character feeling new when a player switches from one character to another. This is why it’s good game design to give one character a skill that works differently on one class than a similar one does on another, even when theme isn’t a direct tie.

So, there’s no reason for developers to judge the mechanics of one class based on another class. To some degree, they will of course always judge the performance across classes, but they will always want to obtain relatively comparable performance between classes with different methods.

And this is why a revenant’s bow skills are not apples to apples with a ranger bow skills. They are different for a reason. So long as a ranger’s bow skills are good enough for a ranger to use a bow and be viable, balance is not needed for those skills. If those bow skills are not good enough to be viable, they will need to be adjusted, but they should still be different than the bow skills of other classes, mechanically and stylistically.

Classes are designed from the base up to be apples to oranges.

If you don’t think that short bow skills are strong enough, I may still disagree with you, but it’s not as laughably ludicrous as saying that a ranger’s short bow is “apples to apples” with a revenant.