Guild Wars 2

I saw a feet unaccomplishable by a Ranger tonight.

A Dragonhunter killed something with a bow… I didn’t know bows did damage.

I’m dead serious.

feat*

Just saying… If you’re when you get around to it could we have a dps skill some day?

Are you a returning player? LB is actually semi-meta for PvE high-end content. It will probably fall out of favor to healing druids and condi rangers with raids, but if you were to run low level fractals or dungeons, you’d take a meta bow ranger.

LB roamer is also (IMO) the best WvW roaming build we have, and it’s been meta for PvP (which is currently in flux.)

Bow rangers stronk.

Well. Atleast as far as PvP goes theres ALOT of soft counters in the current meta that tend to work against longbow rangers (not im saying rangers…NOT druids). Theres alot more projectile hate in PvP now. As well as a kitten load more corrupts and chills. That plus the fact that more people are running tankier builds means that yeah. Longbow isn’t really that great anymore. There are just too many counters in the current meta for it to be considered except as an offhand for staff.

Best part about going druid is if they pop projectile hate you can just use staff to completely ignore it.

Kinda leaves those of us that don’t enjoy druid outa the picture though.

Edit: Im not saying longbow is terribly weak or anything its not. And against builds that aren’t running its counters it still works just like it used to. The issue I was getting at is that most of the new builds HAVE those counters without sacrificing anything additional for it. Thats all

Shadelang.3012:

Theres alot more projectile hate in PvP now.

Understated but well said. Projectile damage is the weakest form of damage in the current meta. If put ahainst a skilled opponent with reflect it is also a huge disadvantage for the user.

alain.1659:

Projectile damage is the weakest form of damage in the current meta. If put ahainst a skilled opponent with reflect it is also a huge disadvantage for the user.

This has been the case since day 1. Distance is the huge, huge advantage, which is a major reason why you don’t see people running soldier’s LB ranger instead of marauder/zerker.

The first day RF was updated to be 100% faster, I went roaming in WvW with my zerker ranger and collected a bunch of scalps via my off-hand axe. Then I went in to PvP with a condi ranger and killed a bunch more LB rangers trying to take my point.

Fluffball.8307:

alain.1659:

Projectile damage is the weakest form of damage in the current meta. If put ahainst a skilled opponent with reflect it is also a huge disadvantage for the user.

This has been the case since day 1. Distance is the huge, huge advantage, which is a major reason why you don’t see people running soldier’s LB ranger instead of marauder/zerker.

The first day RF was updated to be 100% faster, I went roaming in WvW with my zerker ranger and collected a bunch of scalps via my off-hand axe. Then I went in to PvP with a condi ranger and killed a bunch more LB rangers trying to take my point.

Err Im not sure your talking about the same thing we are. Were not refering to the damage of the attacks. We get that ranged dmg is weaker than melee. Were used to that. Its the fact that actually connecting with attacks is alot more difficult now. As the ability to prevent those attacks from functioning is much more common and more easily accessible than it used to be. Thats all.

Shadelang.3012:

Err Im not sure your talking about the same thing we are. Were not refering to the damage of the attacks. We get that ranged dmg is weaker than melee. Were used to that. Its the fact that actually connecting with attacks is alot more difficult now. As the ability to prevent those attacks from functioning is much more common and more easily accessible than it used to be. Thats all.

I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about, I was responding to the guy I quoted.

Edit: So re-reading your post a bunch of times, I think you’re saying the same thing I am. Reflects defeat ranged.

Fluffball.8307:

Shadelang.3012:

Err Im not sure your talking about the same thing we are. Were not refering to the damage of the attacks. We get that ranged dmg is weaker than melee. Were used to that. Its the fact that actually connecting with attacks is alot more difficult now. As the ability to prevent those attacks from functioning is much more common and more easily accessible than it used to be. Thats all.

I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about, I was responding to the guy I quoted.

And he was responding to me on the nature of the current amount of projectile hate in the game haha.

Shadelang.3012:

And he was responding to me on the nature of the current amount of projectile hate in the game haha.

Ya his story was about [sic] “If put ahainst a skilled opponent with reflect it is also a huge disadvantage for the user.” and I gave an example of how that’s always been the case.

I fell off a cliff once and died. Note: I was wielding a longbow at the time.

lol all are saying the same thing. projectile is not only weak but also dangerous. if you can read animations right you can just reflect a knockback arrow with ease. being immune to damage is something but reflecting the damage is another. and there is also retaliation.

Longbow is good against not careful opponents. but against a well experienced one, you will fail mostly (or swap instantly)

Not everyone has lots of reflects. (Ranger’s) LB was a decent weapon pre-HoT and still is. Of course camping on LB is usually not the best idea, but this doesn’t mean the weapon is bad. Others have to weaponswap too.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Not everyone has lots of reflects. (Ranger’s) LB was a decent weapon pre-HoT and still is. Of course camping on LB is usually not the best idea, but this doesn’t mean the weapon is bad. Others have to weaponswap too.

Haha the thing is that reflects aren’t the only thing out there. But yes tehre the most noticeable. For a list of new projectile hate.

Necromancer. Corrosive Poison Cloud and Reaper shroud 2.

Dragonhunter F3 and longbow 3.

Scrapper hammer 2-4 as well as bulwark gyro f ability.

Tempest with there auras. Also they can fit focus much more easily into there builds now. Giving access to a LARGE aoe projectile destruction skill as well as additional forms of projectile hate.

Druid with staff 3 and 5.

Chronomancer shield skills and evade well.

Revenant Hammer Three and Four. Shield 5. Passive shield 5 proc. Dmg conversion. as well as shiro movement skill.

Daredevil Evade builds.

All of the above are very good at both nullifying the range advantage (the entire reason longbow damage is lower in comparison to other weapons) as WELL as reduction that actual usabiltiy of the weapon.

What this means is that not only is the very reason for the longbows existence negated (extreme range sustained damage). The role its supposed to perform is that much harder to pull off. And means that builds that feature this weapon as a primary combat mechanic are heavily pressured in the current meta in comparison to other setups.

So while the longbow isn’t “weak” there are simply so many free counters available right now that it can’t be considered “reliable” which is what the weapon was CHOSEN for.

It’s not designed to be a gimmick once in a blue moon weapon. Its designed to be just as important to us as our melee weapon. As the builds are designed on a mix of both ranged and melee combat. As it is right now however. That ranged aspect simply isn’t holding up compared to a weapon like staff whos primary attack IGNORES every single form of projectile specific hate in the game.

Which would be fine except there is some of us who’s playstyles can’t fit the druid line into there build.

Most of the things you mentioned work against all attacks, not only against projectiles.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Most of the things you mentioned work against all attacks, not only against projectiles.

Of course. Later in my post I specify. Most of what I mentioned however are more punishing to a ranged playstyle who lacks the ability to counterplay them. Most melee builds have some method of counterplay to the above skills.

But yes. THis is mostly just a list of skills that affect the ranger. Not a list of skills that ONLY affect the ranger.

Melee attacks don’t go through evades or blocks. Idk what counterplay you are talking about. Some things are unblockable, but this is not tied to melee. Yes, rangers don’t have access to unblockable ranged attacks. But the same is true for the melee attacks – with the exception of traps and entangle.
Don’t forget, melee attacks can be avoided by running/kiting. So even if there is more counterplay in form of skills/traits against ranged (projectile) attacks, it doesn’t make ranged stuff harder to land in general. It just depends of the specific situation.

Ranged attacks can be blocked by terrain. So saying that we can’t be avoided is false and im sure your aware of that. Also there are skills DESIGNED to disrupt ranged attacks. So acting like those don’t exist is kind of misleading.

As for melee attacks. I wasn’t refering specifically to ranger in that design. Many builds on other classes can infact go through defenses when they need to. Revenant and mesmer are examples of this. Ranger as you yourself stated lacks those tools. If we DID have a melee set that allowed for that. We could reliably swap to our melee weapons and resume combat. However we don’t the last we had was taunt which was fixed. This creates a dead period in our offensive capabilities that other classes can work around.

As for going through evades. Thats true they can’t. Atleast not directly. (with the exception of a traited signet of vampirism).

Frankly Umbra. What Im talking about isn’t the nature of projectiles vs projectile defense. Its the saturation of projectile defense.

Namely in practical PvP. Projectile defense is SO COMMON that you will likely encounter it several times in each team fight. That creates a period where you quite litterally cannot do anything besides attempt to reposition around it or attempt to engage in melee combat against builds far better designed for that environment than you are.

In other words. Its quite easy for classes to force you into your weakest state if your using longbow in your build. The only exception is if your running staff/longbow druid. As the staff is arguably better than the longbow as a ranged pressure weapon. (It doesn’t have to deal with ANY projectile hate). In those builds longbow is typically used for its burst/stealth/knockback before returning to staff to reengage on point.

The entire point of my original post was to point out that there is simply a higher density of mechanics capable of being used to soft or hardcounter projectiles. That you can NOT deny. Whether it affects other skills is actually irrelevant to the discussion. The longbow is in a worse place now than it was before. Simply by the fact that the rest of the game has outgrown it with the release of HoT. It still has a place. But its even more niche now than it was before. And even more easily countered now than it was before. Because the tools that are needed to counter it are INCREDIBLY common. Every single elite spec has them.

This isn’t a longbow or ranger issue. Many core class builds are weaker relative to elite specs now.

I never at any point claimed that wasn’t the case. I only pointed out how heavily the longbow ranger specifically is hit. I can’t judge other classes as I main ranger. The only classes I could claim to judge outside of ranger is guardian and necromancer. And with no where near the same level of experience.

The purpose of my post isn’t a QQ about “Oh boo hoo anet hates rangers cause x x and x” its based on my experiences as someone who doesn’t typically enjoy playing the druid elite spec. I.E as someone who prefers the core rangers playstyle.

My view is based on how that playstyle is affected in the current meta.

time of the longbow rangers is over i think. by buffing others lb got a sneaky nerf. archer archetype is tried to be shifted from rangers to guardians and tanky support is to rangers. an unjust decision by anet but it is profitable. many of my archery loving friends switched to dh.

I prefer core ranger over druid too. I use the lb from time to time, but mostly i play full melee (gs + s/a). And it didn’t become easier for me either.

In general my whole post was just rage. Plain and simple. I didn’t mean to generate this much comment.

All the same, the core issue I have with the ranger I just posted about. It’s a mechanically-convoluted mess.

Pets:
There are too many skills about the pet and too many situations where the pet is not there doing whatever you need it for. It’s a pathing issue that’s not going to change unless our pets are karka that can clue themselves to our target’s face. It is an act of some god when pets are where you need them to be when you need them to be. In PvP birds are hands-down the best pet because people have a heck of a time finding them to target and they do a lot of damage. In WvW this is generally the case too since you’re going to lose the pet on Guards anyway. So just swap F4 and try to make it as unnecessary to your survival as possible. If you’re using pets right now you’re probably doing it for the bleeds. That’s great… if it would ever mind getting to the target when you need it to be there. More likely it’s dead, you’re dead, or it’s chasing butterflies.

Traps
A good chunk of our abilities which require we be where we want to the target to be. In WvW this sometimes works since there’s a good chance you’ll be fighting somewhere that lets you break line of sight from someone and then draw them around the corner to die in a trap field. The problem with this being anything ‘meta’ related is its a perfectly good way to be utterly obvious. Thus, people go around them, kill you with your plastic-spoon dispenser (bow) and wonder why you are still playing this class.

Sword = Mobility, Dodge options, Gain range
Greatsword = Close Range, Block, hit stupidly hard (once)

In general the Ranger is like a one-trick dog. It doesn’t matter what this new meta trick is, the trick is only one-off and then a positively gigantic cooldown period. All so we can go through the process of waiting for the heaven to come into alignment such that the blessings of the gods of mechanical convolution offer us the opportunity to do our one trick again.

Sure, I agree. There’s a lot of little things that the Druid does great. It’s just each and everyone one of them you have to be pre-organized for and not in such a way that it really works in the field.
If you’re doing the Sinister build you’re going to positively melt Mordrem, but you’re going to get eaten alive in WvW. If you’re doing anything else in WvW you’re still going to get each alive, but at least you killed that one-off player! Saying a class is broke in PvE really doesn’t mean much. The devs fix that kind of thing pretty quick. It’s everything else that really starts to bite at you.

For example… Why are we a Ranged class if everything we do at Range is low damage and everything we do at close Range IS our damage? That tends to be the Ranger has rolled from forever. The nerfed Shortbow into the ground and now it’s back yet again, but it’s still just 600 Range. 600 range is basically par for the course. Everyone can do it and it brings nothing new to the table. Sure, you’re dumping out conditions and shooting fast, but you’re always doing that. Again this just makes you predictable. Whereas, most classes by now, have a few extra tricks going besides “Come here so I can kill you…. No no, not there, here! Why won’t you come here!?” Meanwhile the person watching you do this is just shaking their head. They either kill you out of pity or walk away because you’re just not enough fun to bother with.

Shields, Blocks and Projectiles
And, I’m not sure who said it above, but yes we’re just not going to do anything with bows as they currently are. They’re mechanically an ambush weapon at best and we really haven’t an alternative.

In fact, the whole Ranger class is basically an opportunistic. Again, just a one-trick dog.

People fighting Rangers have completely figured this out. It’s much the same situation as the Warrior Rifle without as much practicality. Especially now since Warriors can shoot rapidly for high damage when in their Zerker state.

Bottom line is we’re a ranged class that’s really not an anything class.

The only reason any of Ranger or Druid is working right now is because you have found a mode of play and build that works for you. Every other class in the game is looking at us going, “You poor soul. Let me tell you about my class…”

Druid… Druid is an elite specialization we’re not even allowed access to unless we charge it up. There out to be an option charged up and then depleted, or press a key and then permanently be in healing mode with a 160 second cool down. Otherwise we’re the ONLY class in the game that can’t use our bloody elite specialization when we want.

The whole Ranger is just a mechanical game maze. It’s like a mesmer that blasted itself one too many times with its own spells and now is trapped in its own head trying to navigate a way back to reality.

Everything is pretty much broke now. Only the developers think otherwise.

I don’t think I recall seeing a more borked expansion pack than this – it even gives Trials of Atlantis / DaOC a run for its money.

Crapgame.6519:

Everything is pretty much broke now. Only the developers think otherwise.

I don’t think I recall seeing a more borked expansion pack than this – it even gives Trials of Atlantis / DaOC a run for its money.

Pure marketing stuff… Broken elite specs force people to buy the xpac to be effective (or quit). They gonna “SHAVE IT OFF” (well known anet shout) in about 6 months (as usual…).

I wouldn’t say it is so bad as Trials of Atlantis was at release.

I mean, as much as I just griped on the Druid we’re in a field of flowers compared to where the Ranger was in DAoC. The Scout had an ungodly range. I remember watching them snipe people from across the water at Caledonia while Rangers sat in total envy.

For those that don’t understand this detour Dark Age of Camelot had three classes that could do the same things (more or less). So, instead of there just being a Ranger there would be a Ranger, Scout, and Hunter. Hunters had dogs that actually tracked people, quite a fun mechanic. Scouts had this unimaginable range because they had access to longbow: if they could see you they could kill you. Rangers had access to recurve bows, which were better than Hunters, but not as good as Scouts. All three were pretty awful at melee, but had different ways they could off set this. Scouts had shield, Rangers could stealth, and Hunters had a pretty effective spear option.

Anet probably dodged the bullet with this honestly. They’ve pushed Ascended gear as the cap, but ToA added %n to the stat caps. It completely screwed up the game because everything was player crafted until ToA. After ToA all of that player effort and time spent crafting was pretty much dead and gone. They saw the light and fixed it, but not before they actually had to remove ToA from the game on one server to make a dedicated classical DAoC server.
We’re better off than this. Ranger is hurting and very badly so, but mostly because pre-Heart of Thorns it’s just worthless. It got some help with the longbow rework or if you’re okay doing condition damage all the time … for 80 levels. Necromancer is in the same situation. It’s dagger/dagger condition fields or clock out.

Basically it’s just utterly boring and predictable.

If you’re 80 and in Heart of Thorns it’s more that Direct Damage hasn’t really got a lot of options. Most things can block you and the long bow is pretty slow. Point Blank Shot and Barrage should be swapped in their button keys. Most new players will push 4 to get out more damage, then push 5. It has been happening since launch and it’s mostly because 4 is easy to reach, 5 is a bit awkward to reach. Especially if you have smaller hands. But realistically we’re using 5 more than 4.
Really they ought to get rid of 5 being channeled. That’s the biggest problem with the Ranger as a whole. You have to stop moving and the moment you stop moving in this game you’re going to die. Especially after Heart of Thorns. Barrage ought to fire while moving.

Those two changes would eliminate a huge chunk of the problems with the Ranger portion of the Ranger.

The Druid just needs some real improvement on the staff portion. I was running around at 80 trying to heal some level 20s last night and it did NOTHING. Even when I buttoned 3’d right on top of them. If they want us to heal, let us just get into healing mode and stay there. OR, if that’s going to be a real problem give us an F6 that IS dedicated to healing. Give it some long cooldown and that really be that.

That also would set right a great deal of the complaints going.

Crapgame.6519:

Everything is pretty much broke now. Only the developers think otherwise.

I don’t think I recall seeing a more borked expansion pack than this – it even gives Trials of Atlantis / DaOC a run for its money.

I don’t know man Warlords of Draenor was pretty kitten bad. Not only was it completely utterly unplayable in the first week, other than raiding & 4 days of leveling it had no content at all.

Eirdyne – that is true. Midgard’s hunter is what I ran, and a Thane, and Spiritmaster. Anyway I am detracting from the thread but it was more along the lines of master levels and their requirement vs. how they impacted RvR (those who had vs. have not). I won’t even go into scroll farming Good game though prior to.

And a game that dates back to 2001 had a portal with “ALL” player statistics to include guild and alliances. Are you listening Arena Net?

I understand why A.net went the route of masteries and unlocking but compared to retail launch the whole look and feel of the new PvE map seems wonky. sPvP seems out of kilt due to the new guild mechanic. WvW? Maps are nice, but did we really need 3 and replace the original borderlands? Maybe take one and replace EBG…

DH is really fun to play, if you are looking for a nice heavy archer type. I still think LB Ranger is fun, as well. DH just has a different feel, and I think it’s quite nice.

Ranger and Druid DPS longbow builds seem much stronger in Stronghold, where bunkering isn’t ideal and most players run high damage setups.