Guild Wars 2

When the new legendary short bow was announced I read a fair amount saying it sucked for rangers, but was good for theif. I mainly use a short bow as a ranger and was just wondering if anyone could explain the resoning for people not liking it for a ranger. Please keep in mind I’m half a noob.

It’s a hybrid weapon, no big damage like a power-based one, no big conditions either like a condi-based one. So that requires to spread stats in a build to make it work fully, and this generally makes hybrid weapons unpopular.

After that, i used to equip SB often as a power weapon for wvw back when it had 1200 range. 1200 range piercing was a very decent ranged weapon for running around zerg engagements. The flanking happened naturally, trait/runes to increase flanking damage (Thief runes i think?) made the AA decent, and the utility from 2-5 was a great complement.

What killed it for me was the reduced range which forces you to get closer to the red circles of death. The damage from skills 2-5 has never ever been what the SB was about for me, and this is the only thing they ever buffed since stripping down the range. I still use it at times for skirmishing mind (great aggravation tool to lure people into traps), and my old build would probably be useless these days with the 34289234e43 sources of reflect projectiles, but i still find myself longing for that old 1200 range.

themillwater.5846:

When the new legendary short bow was announced I read a fair amount saying it sucked for rangers, but was good for theif. I mainly use a short bow as a ranger and was just wondering if anyone could explain the resoning for people not liking it for a ranger. Please keep in mind I’m half a noob.

It’s more or less an assumption from pre-HoT Ranger fiasco.
Shortbow used to be an awful weapon back then.

But now it mathematically has the potential of being a full-time condi weapon. With the new stats, runes and sigils we’ve been made the true kings of bleeding damage.

The only problem that might people think about is that #1 has a flanking restriction. Which I don’t find that harsh. Flank is like 75% of enemies surroundings (rear and sides). I mean I often apply the bleed while strafing in PvP while facing my enemy’s front.

The weapon scales well with Sharpened Edges (skirmishing trait), Krait Runes and Sigil of Agony. And most especially – Quickness.

EDIT: I think people believe SB to be a bad weapon because they don’t utilize around it. It is a bad weapon if you don’t invest into bleeding specifically but you go for conditions all-in-all.

Tragic Positive.9356:

EDIT: I think people believe SB to be a bad weapon because they don’t utilize around it. It is a bad weapon if you don’t invest into bleeding specifically but you go for conditions all-in-all.

hmmm… food for thought…

bearshaman.3421:

Tragic Positive.9356:

EDIT: I think people believe SB to be a bad weapon because they don’t utilize around it. It is a bad weapon if you don’t invest into bleeding specifically but you go for conditions all-in-all.

hmmm… food for thought…

Even the top Hardcore PvE guilds do not provide builds that squeeze the most out of it.
Their statistics with their builds provide numbers that tell SB can be better than A/T builds in DPS. And they do not even spec for it.

Which is funny since they use 4 Runes of Nightmare + 2 runes of trapper (25% condi duration). They also go for Sigil of Malice (10% condi duration).
(Or 5 nightmare and 1 black diamond)
Imagine them having Krait Runes (+45% bleeding duration) and Sigil of Agony (20% bleeding duration).

Now that’s a straight 30% increasing in bleeding duration in comparison to their setup while SB goes for almost pure bleeding output. Now we can start talking.

Can’t comment about PVE but it just lacks utility for PVP compared to LB. LB’s saving grace is the stealth and knockback plus the channeled attack, which let you deal with classes like Mesmers/Thieves and knock classes off points. 900 SB range is much riskier for the Ranger and much easier for enemies to escape from, and you are left with just an evade that does nothing against a gap closer and a cripple/daze which isn’t really meaningful defensively (remember that effects like cripple no longer affect movement skills).

roamzero.9486:

Can’t comment about PVE but it just lacks utility for PVP compared to LB. LB’s saving grace is the stealth and knockback plus the channeled attack, which let you deal with classes like Mesmers/Thieves and knock classes off points. 900 SB range is much riskier for the Ranger and much easier for enemies to escape from, and you are left with just an evade that does nothing against a gap closer and a cripple/daze which isn’t really meaningful defensively (remember that effects like cripple no longer affect movement skills).

I can’t argue with any of these.
10/10 on all points made.

I just wanted to bring some DPS data and facts.

Tragic Positive.9356:

themillwater.5846:

When the new legendary short bow was announced I read a fair amount saying it sucked for rangers, but was good for theif. I mainly use a short bow as a ranger and was just wondering if anyone could explain the resoning for people not liking it for a ranger. Please keep in mind I’m half a noob.

It’s more or less an assumption from pre-HoT Ranger fiasco.
Shortbow used to be an awful weapon back then.

But now it mathematically has the potential of being a full-time condi weapon. With the new stats, runes and sigils we’ve been made the true kings of bleeding damage.

The only problem that might people think about is that #1 has a flanking restriction. Which I don’t find that harsh. Flank is like 75% of enemies surroundings (rear and sides). I mean I often apply the bleed while strafing in PvP while facing my enemy’s front.

The weapon scales well with Sharpened Edges (skirmishing trait), Krait Runes and Sigil of Agony. And most especially – Quickness.

EDIT: I think people believe SB to be a bad weapon because they don’t utilize around it. It is a bad weapon if you don’t invest into bleeding specifically but you go for conditions all-in-all.

This post made me rage.

I used SB for 2000 matches, Won and played various dueling tournaments, I am an Ex [FEAR] member and rekt numerous good players in that guild and some of the best rangers/mesmers you may know using an SB/GS remorseless build that I use. From this experience I can tell you. SB only works in dueling. It will NEVER work in a competitive pvp match. SOLO Q it will. (Guess what, anything works in Solo Q)

Build around bleeding? are you kidding me? A bleeding build is so one dimensional that it will be so easy to cleanse/ counter.

SB needs a huge rework, the damage modifiers on it (especially the AA) are so low that even with a hybrid build it will simply pale in comparison with other weapons. GS on a destroyer amulet will still outdamage it. The Damage is so low and it will not compensate the 900 range it has.

The AA damage is so low, the bleeds are not enough. Bleeds need atleast 10+ stacks to be able to have decent damage. And this requires heavy investment into sharpening edges, high prec, earth sigil because of the flanking limitation. (again you cannot flank properly without CC)

In order to compensate for the range, The AA needs to have a soft CC on it (slow, chill, cripple) so you can kite better.

The recent buffs mean nothing if the AA is untouched. AND If this really wants to be a condi weapon, it needs more condition variety on it. (torment on 3, confusion on 5 as examples)

Just my 2 cents, coming from a ranger who used SB verrrrryyy extensively.

PS:

SB worked really well with a trapper build, too bad they are not ground targeted anymore so yea…

This buff has been frustrating because SB has been so bad for so long, After it finally got a balance pass I am dismayed by how underwhelming the buffs are.

Remember, Rangers have Long Bow, which serves as a baseline for a viable ranged weapon. Yet somehow:

—Skill #5— Concussion Shot is still terrible given the 25 second recharge time. Point Blank Shot is better CC at a fraction of the recharge. On top of this, the projectile speed is an issue for interrupting important skills at range.

—Hunter’s Shot is far better at providing combat evasion than Quick Shot. Quick shot should remove Immobilize or other movement impairing conditions.

—Crossfire even while flanking is worse than Long Rang Shot.

—Lead with the Wind offers a permanent flat 10% damage boost through attack speed. Meanwhile Light on your Feet gives at best a 40% uptime (given 10 seconds per dodge regen) on an arguably inferior DPS buff. Why?

—Rapid Fire does more damage at 1500 range than shot gunning a foe with Poison Volley at 0 range. Risk versus reward? Forget about it. Just make a skill shot happen in dangerous melee range and be glad there is an extra 1 extra second of poison.

Anyways, it’s just frustrating how A-Net has all of these mechanic and skill gated requirements on Shortbow skills, and yet even with them theoretically functioning 100% of the time by a godly skilled player, they still would struggle to match sitting still with Long Bow.

Thank you very much everyone, gives me a lot to think about. I started using the short bow because I was having issues with getting rushed/swarmed and the damage of the longbow going down because of the lesser range thing. Point blank shot helped a bit but the cool down took to long for my tastes. Barrage was giving me issues because of the way you had to stand still and then the buggers would run out of the arrow fall. I tried a sword, greatsword, axe, dagger, I sucked.

Tried the short bow and I did fairly good with it. I did put 5 runes of the nightmare and 1 rune of the sunless on my armor to help with the condition damage. I’m still playing around with the other stuff but do try and lean for more condition damage. I love the smokescale and mainly go with the bristleback for the second one. I do a lot of kiting when attacking, constantly circling most of the time. I still use a longbow for when they are a distance from me but switch when they get closer.

the short bows attack pattern is generaly Burst Bleeds+poision volly vs Grouped foes.

it works great when combined with Traps (even if not trated because of the rapid Projecile speeds the AA gives)

don’t use Bristleback with SB you may think its better because of the bleeds but again a person will be running 2x sources of bleeding and 2x range sources with 1 CC concussion shot and little escape kitten 3 isn’t a repostion but a evade skill as to that you’ll need a Sword+dagger as a second weapon set not S+T as that still offers little escape.

Use
this set up for pvp
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAV8YnUqA1CitsAerActgBDhyb9XY25AYqL9uDC2quEhXE-TZRFABpfEAOvMA+7PkwFBAgHAAA
the idea of this set up is to Evade while applying HARD poison damage and bleeds are only the top up condition.

the tiger is to provide team fury and 100% fury uptime + a leap to apply the poison damage , ontop of that the Nature magic line will buff up the pet through Transfered boons from teammates while you provide it with plenty of Protection through heal as ones+protect me’s and counts as a vigour source 12seconds of vigour from LR +> heal as one before the duration ends tops up a extra 3seconds of vigour.

the sigil choices are for increased Bleed bursts with geomancy and flank bleeds using SB, the sword sigil of speed is to increase its application rather than mass stacks as Sword now hits much more than before it also applies the most direct poison damage as both are combined with evades (damage while surviving/evading then Sword 2 back f2 the pig pick up your item feathers ect use that to stealth and plant the vipers nest for a Large poison damage > into a consussion shot)

people won’t see the trap or you but if they react too quickly and leap you while you leap back on sword 2 they will fly into the trap taking 9+poison master stacks after all poison applications it can reach 14 poisons and a average of 12-14 bleeds after weapon swaps.

the main point of this build is to force weapon swaps and rotate between Volly shots and sword+dagger evades mixing in Poison fields while escaping rather than using Poison field + sword because using SB AA + poison field does the most damage application and protection through Applied weakness.

meaning you are always fighting at 900yards anyway .

Sotp is simply your Burst / Dive skill if you need to deal increased damage quick or escape / hold your ground while you perform the evade poison chains (not being forces away from a target greatly helps with application)

Striders defence the Reason for this is Pure Projecile survival 50% of projeciles are Destoryed and this skill alone saves you a lot of damage, it is easier to aim for Evade gaps with ranged weapons this prevents that and decreases Sword 2,3 cooldowns in addition to dagger dagger off hand + quick draw it allows consistant Evading .

you need to consistantly applying poison rather than bleeds focus the bleeds are a top up which happen through normal rotations , make sure to flank AA when kiting alone and Sword AA flanking on a escape followed by a foe leaping at you into the poison field i mentioned dagger 4 > Sword AA then evade as required .

the down side to this build is odd , it works better when the foe is highly Aggressive or needs to hit you constantly which only powers rune of thorns increasing your condi damage bursts of poison making the pet stronger plus poison master stronger.

its cons vs foes that " test the waters and wait for the largest portion of the poison application" it reduces the overall damage by a large chunk but i wouldn’t worry too much as you can keep evading and the longer the fight the more Thorn stacks you gain.

Rooting with entangle or using a druids ancient seeds is counter active to this build you want people to over stretch or over reach and immobolising them or slowing them down too much Hard CC lowers the flanking chances which lowers chances of doing the evade chain+ SB AA>volly damage(vollying from the sides deals significantly more damage after a petswap+weapon swap.

the poison volly chain follows this pattern.

start defensive with the saimoth drop the f2 as a bait item save for around 20seconds or untill you LR back to it as a safe zone , if plasma go hard pressure and damage hard use the over reaching foe and force yourself into the flank then do this

Volly 5 poisons 5-8bleeds)petswap(2-4 poisons leap f2 +7 bleeds from critspet skill 4)> AA twice > SB 3 or LR (if needed) > crippling shot > weapon swap +viper nest > evade chain sword 3> sword 2 leap back in> dagger 4>sword 2 or 3 (due to quickdraw recharge) > swap SB repeat.

this chain combo provides 12-14 poisons on average plus those 12 average but consistant bleeds though the bulk of the damage is comming from pet buffed+poisons , using Concussion shot vs Ranged foes only and AA prevents free casting while you send the pet in with F2 leap+poison, if you want to gap close do the saimoth combo and use feathers or plasma attack chain.

its all about skillfully kiting using both weapon sets , though SB alone as a main weapon isn’t worth the effort .

also if you do try this build and find Dagger not your style swap for Sword+axe and change off-hand training for Shared Anguish or refined toxins for a top up damage on Path of scars attack (first attack after swap provides great Line CC and applies poison 3 stacks after a pet swap too)

saimoth optional though i do say use it just because of the plasma item and Fortifying bond>heal as one is too strong to pass up.

as you can tell running a SB build is highly complex and not as simple as just using LB+staff or LB+gs it required much more skill to pull and land attacks which are not rapid or spammable (like Quickdraw mauls ect) the lb+ gs or staff builds are way more flexible in choices of Utility and enough for any pet choice too as they have enough inbuilt defences to repostion and stay at range , so using a bristleback is more viable as compaired to being in near melee range where a Feline / wolf/ pig /drake would be more beneficial to the SB build.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

the short bows attack pattern is generaly Burst Bleeds+poision volly vs Grouped foes.

it works great when combined with Traps (even if not trated because of the rapid Projecile speeds the AA gives)

don’t use Bristleback with SB you may think its better because of the bleeds but again a person will be running 2x sources of bleeding and 2x range sources with 1 CC concussion shot and little escape kitten 3 isn’t a repostion but a evade skill as to that you’ll need a Sword+dagger as a second weapon set not S+T as that still offers little escape.

Use
this set up for pvp
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAV8YnUqA1CitsAerActgBDhyb9XY25AYqL9uDC2quEhXE-TZRFABpfEAOvMA+7PkwFBAgHAAA
the idea of this set up is to Evade while applying HARD poison damage and bleeds are only the top up condition.

the tiger is to provide team fury and 100% fury uptime + a leap to apply the poison damage , ontop of that the Nature magic line will buff up the pet through Transfered boons from teammates while you provide it with plenty of Protection through heal as ones+protect me’s and counts as a vigour source 12seconds of vigour from LR +> heal as one before the duration ends tops up a extra 3seconds of vigour.

the sigil choices are for increased Bleed bursts with geomancy and flank bleeds using SB, the sword sigil of speed is to increase its application rather than mass stacks as Sword now hits much more than before it also applies the most direct poison damage as both are combined with evades (damage while surviving/evading then Sword 2 back f2 the pig pick up your item feathers ect use that to stealth and plant the vipers nest for a Large poison damage > into a consussion shot)

people won’t see the trap or you but if they react too quickly and leap you while you leap back on sword 2 they will fly into the trap taking 9+poison master stacks after all poison applications it can reach 14 poisons and a average of 12-14 bleeds after weapon swaps.

the main point of this build is to force weapon swaps and rotate between Volly shots and sword+dagger evades mixing in Poison fields while escaping rather than using Poison field + sword because using SB AA + poison field does the most damage application and protection through Applied weakness.

meaning you are always fighting at 900yards anyway .

Sotp is simply your Burst / Dive skill if you need to deal increased damage quick or escape / hold your ground while you perform the evade poison chains (not being forces away from a target greatly helps with application)

Striders defence the Reason for this is Pure Projecile survival 50% of projeciles are Destoryed and this skill alone saves you a lot of damage, it is easier to aim for Evade gaps with ranged weapons this prevents that and decreases Sword 2,3 cooldowns in addition to dagger dagger off hand + quick draw it allows consistant Evading .

you need to consistantly applying poison rather than bleeds focus the bleeds are a top up which happen through normal rotations , make sure to flank AA when kiting alone and Sword AA flanking on a escape followed by a foe leaping at you into the poison field i mentioned dagger 4 > Sword AA then evade as required .

the down side to this build is odd , it works better when the foe is highly Aggressive or needs to hit you constantly which only powers rune of thorns increasing your condi damage bursts of poison making the pet stronger plus poison master stronger.

its cons vs foes that " test the waters and wait for the largest portion of the poison application" it reduces the overall damage by a large chunk but i wouldn’t worry too much as you can keep evading and the longer the fight the more Thorn stacks you gain.

Rooting with entangle or using a druids ancient seeds is counter active to this build you want people to over stretch or over reach and immobolising them or slowing them down too much Hard CC lowers the flanking chances which lowers chances of doing the evade chain+ SB AA>volly damage(vollying from the sides deals significantly more damage after a petswap+weapon swap.

the poison volly chain follows this pattern.

start defensive with the saimoth drop the f2 as a bait item save for around 20seconds or untill you LR back to it as a safe zone , if plasma go hard pressure and damage hard use the over reaching foe and force yourself into the flank then do this

Volly 5 poisons 5-8bleeds)petswap(2-4 poisons leap f2 +7 bleeds from critspet skill 4)> AA twice > SB 3 or LR (if needed) > crippling shot > weapon swap +viper nest > evade chain sword 3> sword 2 leap back in> dagger 4>sword 2 or 3 (due to quickdraw recharge) > swap SB repeat.

this chain combo provides 12-14 poisons on average plus those 12 average but consistant bleeds though the bulk of the damage is comming from pet buffed+poisons , using Concussion shot vs Ranged foes only and AA prevents free casting while you send the pet in with F2 leap+poison, if you want to gap close do the saimoth combo and use feathers or plasma attack chain.

its all about skillfully kiting using both weapon sets , though SB alone as a main weapon isn’t worth the effort .

also if you do try this build and find Dagger not your style swap for Sword+axe and change off-hand training for Shared Anguish or refined toxins for a top up damage on Path of scars attack (first attack after swap provides great Line CC and applies poison 3 stacks after a pet swap too)

saimoth optional though i do say use it just because of the plasma item and Fortifying bond>heal as one is too strong to pass up.

as you can tell running a SB build is highly complex and not as simple as just using LB+staff or LB+gs it required much more skill to pull and land attacks which are not rapid or spammable (like Quickdraw mauls ect) the lb+ gs or staff builds are way more flexible in choices of Utility and enough for any pet choice too as they have enough inbuilt defences to repostion and stay at range , so using a bristleback is more viable as compaired to being in near melee range where a Feline / wolf/ pig /drake would be more beneficial to the SB build.

Only issue I have here is condition removal, not saying its a bad build, it’s just the state of condition spamming in the game.

try this

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJAVWn0rCFsiVsCOsAUtgFDBjJAM6KdwZ1waa1519CmdlMtDA-TZRAQB7rMAAOCAMc/hOcBAowjAAA

I managed a max of 49 bleed stacks on my ranger. Shortbow, krait runes, and all the things that do bleed.

Lahmia.2193:

I managed a max of 49 bleed stacks on my ranger. Shortbow, krait runes, and all the things that do bleed.

I got 68 on a PvP gollem.

I don’t know if suggesting a build with 0 condi clear in a condi heavy meta is the best idea. You are going to burst down a reaper and eat it all back. You are going to face Berserkers now, given the Adrenal Health buff. Condi Mesmers? Expect 1-2 per match now.

Yeah, that build is not going anywhere fast in this meta.

StickerHappy.8052:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

the short bows attack pattern is generaly Burst Bleeds+poision volly vs Grouped foes.

it works great when combined with Traps (even if not trated because of the rapid Projecile speeds the AA gives)

don’t use Bristleback with SB you may think its better because of the bleeds but again a person will be running 2x sources of bleeding and 2x range sources with 1 CC concussion shot and little escape kitten 3 isn’t a repostion but a evade skill as to that you’ll need a Sword+dagger as a second weapon set not S+T as that still offers little escape.

Use
this set up for pvp
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAV8YnUqA1CitsAerActgBDhyb9XY25AYqL9uDC2quEhXE-TZRFABpfEAOvMA+7PkwFBAgHAAA
the idea of this set up is to Evade while applying HARD poison damage and bleeds are only the top up condition.

the tiger is to provide team fury and 100% fury uptime + a leap to apply the poison damage , ontop of that the Nature magic line will buff up the pet through Transfered boons from teammates while you provide it with plenty of Protection through heal as ones+protect me’s and counts as a vigour source 12seconds of vigour from LR +> heal as one before the duration ends tops up a extra 3seconds of vigour.

the sigil choices are for increased Bleed bursts with geomancy and flank bleeds using SB, the sword sigil of speed is to increase its application rather than mass stacks as Sword now hits much more than before it also applies the most direct poison damage as both are combined with evades (damage while surviving/evading then Sword 2 back f2 the pig pick up your item feathers ect use that to stealth and plant the vipers nest for a Large poison damage > into a consussion shot)

people won’t see the trap or you but if they react too quickly and leap you while you leap back on sword 2 they will fly into the trap taking 9+poison master stacks after all poison applications it can reach 14 poisons and a average of 12-14 bleeds after weapon swaps.

the main point of this build is to force weapon swaps and rotate between Volly shots and sword+dagger evades mixing in Poison fields while escaping rather than using Poison field + sword because using SB AA + poison field does the most damage application and protection through Applied weakness.

meaning you are always fighting at 900yards anyway .

Sotp is simply your Burst / Dive skill if you need to deal increased damage quick or escape / hold your ground while you perform the evade poison chains (not being forces away from a target greatly helps with application)

Striders defence the Reason for this is Pure Projecile survival 50% of projeciles are Destoryed and this skill alone saves you a lot of damage, it is easier to aim for Evade gaps with ranged weapons this prevents that and decreases Sword 2,3 cooldowns in addition to dagger dagger off hand + quick draw it allows consistant Evading .

you need to consistantly applying poison rather than bleeds focus the bleeds are a top up which happen through normal rotations , make sure to flank AA when kiting alone and Sword AA flanking on a escape followed by a foe leaping at you into the poison field i mentioned dagger 4 > Sword AA then evade as required .

the down side to this build is odd , it works better when the foe is highly Aggressive or needs to hit you constantly which only powers rune of thorns increasing your condi damage bursts of poison making the pet stronger plus poison master stronger.

its cons vs foes that " test the waters and wait for the largest portion of the poison application" it reduces the overall damage by a large chunk but i wouldn’t worry too much as you can keep evading and the longer the fight the more Thorn stacks you gain.

Rooting with entangle or using a druids ancient seeds is counter active to this build you want people to over stretch or over reach and immobolising them or slowing them down too much Hard CC lowers the flanking chances which lowers chances of doing the evade chain+ SB AA>volly damage(vollying from the sides deals significantly more damage after a petswap+weapon swap.

the poison volly chain follows this pattern.

start defensive with the saimoth drop the f2 as a bait item save for around 20seconds or untill you LR back to it as a safe zone , if plasma go hard pressure and damage hard use the over reaching foe and force yourself into the flank then do this

Volly 5 poisons 5-8bleeds)petswap(2-4 poisons leap f2 +7 bleeds from critspet skill 4)> AA twice > SB 3 or LR (if needed) > crippling shot > weapon swap +viper nest > evade chain sword 3> sword 2 leap back in> dagger 4>sword 2 or 3 (due to quickdraw recharge) > swap SB repeat.

this chain combo provides 12-14 poisons on average plus those 12 average but consistant bleeds though the bulk of the damage is comming from pet buffed+poisons , using Concussion shot vs Ranged foes only and AA prevents free casting while you send the pet in with F2 leap+poison, if you want to gap close do the saimoth combo and use feathers or plasma attack chain.

its all about skillfully kiting using both weapon sets , though SB alone as a main weapon isn’t worth the effort .

also if you do try this build and find Dagger not your style swap for Sword+axe and change off-hand training for Shared Anguish or refined toxins for a top up damage on Path of scars attack (first attack after swap provides great Line CC and applies poison 3 stacks after a pet swap too)

saimoth optional though i do say use it just because of the plasma item and Fortifying bond>heal as one is too strong to pass up.

as you can tell running a SB build is highly complex and not as simple as just using LB+staff or LB+gs it required much more skill to pull and land attacks which are not rapid or spammable (like Quickdraw mauls ect) the lb+ gs or staff builds are way more flexible in choices of Utility and enough for any pet choice too as they have enough inbuilt defences to repostion and stay at range , so using a bristleback is more viable as compaired to being in near melee range where a Feline / wolf/ pig /drake would be more beneficial to the SB build.

Only issue I have here is condition removal, not saying its a bad build, it’s just the state of condition spamming in the game.

thats why its not a Dualing build but a 2vs2 build or +1 roamer , plus the amount of evades you have there is always 1 or 2 evades off cooldown at any time and point using that with vigour and Evasive purity maybe even a sigil of purity.

you can Evade nearly every Large hitting attack , this combat style is not for those people that run through Red rings or well areas doing so just burns the evade defences so at this point you use Striders defence and the stealth mechanics to avoid Range AA condi application , i’ve played this build before the poison master update and it Slaughtered people now with the damage buff + a team mate supporting you’ll have no issues avoiding condis.

confusion maybe a issue but that is mainly comming from shatters which should be evaded everytime as you won’t have any shortage and LR does hard damage shatters on its way out a 1-2 quick AA’s kills a clone making a escape/kiting path for you to sword 3 or 2 into.

if you try to face tank a load of wells or clones without dealing with them then sure you’ll take a huge chunk of condis but if you play to the builds strenghts you will avoid pretty much every condi application and most large hitting melee attacks.

Immobilise counter with LR or Sword 3>dagger 4 swap SB3 for a evade chain keeping track of quickdraw is key and also is not Spamming away your evades when they are not needed , once you use quick draw for a offense its locked to offense skills unless you skip a roation round and use it on the evade chain (which does have poisons latched to the sword+dagger evade chain).

try playing it anyway and focus on +1 rather than trying to de-cap / dual keep fights to where your heal/condi clear support is .

the way i see it is most builds only need 1 mass condi clear with enough health sustain or avoidance skills between cooldowns or lots of little amounts of condi removals like WK , this build focuses on active combat for survival as soon as you stop defending your Damage stops.

“the added bonus here is vs Reapers and necros if they send back all those Poisons you can simply Dodge to Negate all those poison stacks .”

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

the short bows attack pattern is generaly Burst Bleeds+poision volly vs Grouped foes.

it works great when combined with Traps (even if not trated because of the rapid Projecile speeds the AA gives)

don’t use Bristleback with SB you may think its better because of the bleeds but again a person will be running 2x sources of bleeding and 2x range sources with 1 CC concussion shot and little escape kitten 3 isn’t a repostion but a evade skill as to that you’ll need a Sword+dagger as a second weapon set not S+T as that still offers little escape.

Use
this set up for pvp
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAV8YnUqA1CitsAerActgBDhyb9XY25AYqL9uDC2quEhXE-TZRFABpfEAOvMA+7PkwFBAgHAAA
the idea of this set up is to Evade while applying HARD poison damage and bleeds are only the top up condition.

the tiger is to provide team fury and 100% fury uptime + a leap to apply the poison damage , ontop of that the Nature magic line will buff up the pet through Transfered boons from teammates while you provide it with plenty of Protection through heal as ones+protect me’s and counts as a vigour source 12seconds of vigour from LR +> heal as one before the duration ends tops up a extra 3seconds of vigour.

the sigil choices are for increased Bleed bursts with geomancy and flank bleeds using SB, the sword sigil of speed is to increase its application rather than mass stacks as Sword now hits much more than before it also applies the most direct poison damage as both are combined with evades (damage while surviving/evading then Sword 2 back f2 the pig pick up your item feathers ect use that to stealth and plant the vipers nest for a Large poison damage > into a consussion shot)

people won’t see the trap or you but if they react too quickly and leap you while you leap back on sword 2 they will fly into the trap taking 9+poison master stacks after all poison applications it can reach 14 poisons and a average of 12-14 bleeds after weapon swaps.

the main point of this build is to force weapon swaps and rotate between Volly shots and sword+dagger evades mixing in Poison fields while escaping rather than using Poison field + sword because using SB AA + poison field does the most damage application and protection through Applied weakness.

meaning you are always fighting at 900yards anyway .

Sotp is simply your Burst / Dive skill if you need to deal increased damage quick or escape / hold your ground while you perform the evade poison chains (not being forces away from a target greatly helps with application)

Striders defence the Reason for this is Pure Projecile survival 50% of projeciles are Destoryed and this skill alone saves you a lot of damage, it is easier to aim for Evade gaps with ranged weapons this prevents that and decreases Sword 2,3 cooldowns in addition to dagger dagger off hand + quick draw it allows consistant Evading .

you need to consistantly applying poison rather than bleeds focus the bleeds are a top up which happen through normal rotations , make sure to flank AA when kiting alone and Sword AA flanking on a escape followed by a foe leaping at you into the poison field i mentioned dagger 4 > Sword AA then evade as required .

the down side to this build is odd , it works better when the foe is highly Aggressive or needs to hit you constantly which only powers rune of thorns increasing your condi damage bursts of poison making the pet stronger plus poison master stronger.

its cons vs foes that " test the waters and wait for the largest portion of the poison application" it reduces the overall damage by a large chunk but i wouldn’t worry too much as you can keep evading and the longer the fight the more Thorn stacks you gain.

Rooting with entangle or using a druids ancient seeds is counter active to this build you want people to over stretch or over reach and immobolising them or slowing them down too much Hard CC lowers the flanking chances which lowers chances of doing the evade chain+ SB AA>volly damage(vollying from the sides deals significantly more damage after a petswap+weapon swap.

the poison volly chain follows this pattern.

start defensive with the saimoth drop the f2 as a bait item save for around 20seconds or untill you LR back to it as a safe zone , if plasma go hard pressure and damage hard use the over reaching foe and force yourself into the flank then do this

Volly 5 poisons 5-8bleeds)petswap(2-4 poisons leap f2 +7 bleeds from critspet skill 4)> AA twice > SB 3 or LR (if needed) > crippling shot > weapon swap +viper nest > evade chain sword 3> sword 2 leap back in> dagger 4>sword 2 or 3 (due to quickdraw recharge) > swap SB repeat.

this chain combo provides 12-14 poisons on average plus those 12 average but consistant bleeds though the bulk of the damage is comming from pet buffed+poisons , using Concussion shot vs Ranged foes only and AA prevents free casting while you send the pet in with F2 leap+poison, if you want to gap close do the saimoth combo and use feathers or plasma attack chain.

its all about skillfully kiting using both weapon sets , though SB alone as a main weapon isn’t worth the effort .

also if you do try this build and find Dagger not your style swap for Sword+axe and change off-hand training for Shared Anguish or refined toxins for a top up damage on Path of scars attack (first attack after swap provides great Line CC and applies poison 3 stacks after a pet swap too)

saimoth optional though i do say use it just because of the plasma item and Fortifying bond>heal as one is too strong to pass up.

as you can tell running a SB build is highly complex and not as simple as just using LB+staff or LB+gs it required much more skill to pull and land attacks which are not rapid or spammable (like Quickdraw mauls ect) the lb+ gs or staff builds are way more flexible in choices of Utility and enough for any pet choice too as they have enough inbuilt defences to repostion and stay at range , so using a bristleback is more viable as compaired to being in near melee range where a Feline / wolf/ pig /drake would be more beneficial to the SB build.

Thank you very very much for the detailed explanation, I will be giving this a go when I get home!

mistsim.2748:

try this

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJAVWn0rCFsiVsCOsAUtgFDBjJAM6KdwZ1waa1519CmdlMtDA-TZRAQB7rMAAOCAMc/hOcBAowjAAA

Thank you very much, I will most definitely be giving this a shot.

themillwater.5846:

mistsim.2748:

try this

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJAVWn0rCFsiVsCOsAUtgFDBjJAM6KdwZ1waa1519CmdlMtDA-TZRAQB7rMAAOCAMc/hOcBAowjAAA

Thank you very much, I will most definitely be giving this a shot.

alternatively, if u wanna go core ranger, and have unlimited condi cleansing in current meta:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAV8YjEqQLLWyCmrAVLGcEK/z71RnDgJvy7vNW7gSUZaA-TZxBwAXuIAfLDcb/BHPAAAHBAA

ive had better results with this. still trying to decide SoS vs. QZ. it’s really tanky and the CC + poison/bleed pressure eats druids for breakfast. for some reason, this build also crushes power revs and does fine against necros too.

you can also forego NM tree and go druid instead, without staff.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAV8YjEqQLLWyCmrAVLWcEMmAwkry18tiVdA4k6UNrWiKTD-TZxBwA32fwxDA4yFB4bZAAHBAA

celestial is up often, and ancient seeds are constantly proccing. has a bit less survivability due to no Protective Ward and the extra vigor.

correct me if im wrong, but im finding glyphs to be ineffective currently, due to the delay in the condi cleanse. condi pressure is insane now.

Been looking at and trying all the build links posted. Some of them i didnt quite have everything for so been having to improvise a bit. That led to me playing around with it some more. I tried this today

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJAVTn0rCFsidrAmrAUtgl8AbJAUCOdw1196glZD07+dlI80A-TBhMwAA2fomyP6q/0VJIpAWUZF-e

Now I was doing PvE have no clue how or if it will work PVP or WvW or if it worth a hoot at all. I would do the spike trap followed by the poison trap, it caused the binding roots to pop up, then I used the damage glyph, hit the 3 skill on the short bow started kiting firing the short bow. Used the smokescale X skill, followed by short bow 4 and 5. Then went back in when the traps recharged.

I don’t have my armor listed because I’m on my tablet on break right now and gw2efficiency’s api is down right now. I do remember the condition damage is the main one on all but the helm, accessories are condition damage, armor runes are 5 nightmare and one sunless.

How did I do?

So, is the consensus more like “We need a bit of (or an entire rework) of the Shortbow,” or “we may need 1 or 2 skills to be changed and some QoL improvements to certain existing skills,”? Or maybe the wacky 3rd option?

I hope to see more than a few wacky 3rd, 4th or even 5th options if applicable. :P

mistsim.2748:

themillwater.5846:

mistsim.2748:

try this

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJAVWn0rCFsiVsCOsAUtgFDBjJAM6KdwZ1waa1519CmdlMtDA-TZRAQB7rMAAOCAMc/hOcBAowjAAA

Thank you very much, I will most definitely be giving this a shot.

alternatively, if u wanna go core ranger, and have unlimited condi cleansing in current meta:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAV8YjEqQLLWyCmrAVLGcEK/z71RnDgJvy7vNW7gSUZaA-TZxBwAXuIAfLDcb/BHPAAAHBAA

ive had better results with this. still trying to decide SoS vs. QZ. it’s really tanky and the CC + poison/bleed pressure eats druids for breakfast. for some reason, this build also crushes power revs and does fine against necros too.

you can also forego NM tree and go druid instead, without staff.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAV8YjEqQLLWyCmrAVLWcEMmAwkry18tiVdA4k6UNrWiKTD-TZxBwA32fwxDA4yFB4bZAAHBAA

celestial is up often, and ancient seeds are constantly proccing. has a bit less survivability due to no Protective Ward and the extra vigor.

correct me if im wrong, but im finding glyphs to be ineffective currently, due to the delay in the condi cleanse. condi pressure is insane now.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAV8fjEqQLL2wCmrAVLWcEsmv1FoDwEAmcVO4k6UNrWi0rA-TpRAQBW4BA8hDCQELDAgLAAIOCA9Y/BA

This is a modification to an older build i used to run.

I love using druid and Ancient seeds, with Concussive shot and Spike Trap, the synergy on that feels really good.

I had to go with Signet of Stone, there’s too much bursty damage out there to not have this, especially when using Toll Unguent (in my opinion).

Overall, pretty good condi cleansing, between celestial form and survival skills (running 3 total).

Wolf for a little aoe fear, smokescale for some damage and blind.

I also went with Mercenary’s Amulet, a little more defensive than rabid, and the crit on Rabid is not as necessary when not using Sharpened Edges.

Other than that, I could use some help on runes for the shortbow. No crit means Sigil of Air/Fire are not worth (?).

Let me know what you guys think, thanks!

FrigginPaco.4178:

So, is the consensus more like “We need a bit of (or an entire rework) of the Shortbow,” or “we may need 1 or 2 skills to be changed and some QoL improvements to certain existing skills,”? Or maybe the wacky 3rd option?

I hope to see more than a few wacky 3rd, 4th or even 5th options if applicable. :P

In my opinion, the shortbow is not an easy weapon to play with, but it is doable, just takes practice. It has its weaknesses for sure (like trying to 1v1 a mesmer or a reaper), but if you can play it well, I think it does fine where it’s at now. It’s not going to be meta, but its playable.

Then again, I played shortbow this last season too, and made it all the way to diamond, so even then I thought it was playable.

nish.2360:

mistsim.2748:

themillwater.5846:

mistsim.2748:

try this

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJAVWn0rCFsiVsCOsAUtgFDBjJAM6KdwZ1waa1519CmdlMtDA-TZRAQB7rMAAOCAMc/hOcBAowjAAA

Thank you very much, I will most definitely be giving this a shot.

alternatively, if u wanna go core ranger, and have unlimited condi cleansing in current meta:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAV8YjEqQLLWyCmrAVLGcEK/z71RnDgJvy7vNW7gSUZaA-TZxBwAXuIAfLDcb/BHPAAAHBAA

ive had better results with this. still trying to decide SoS vs. QZ. it’s really tanky and the CC + poison/bleed pressure eats druids for breakfast. for some reason, this build also crushes power revs and does fine against necros too.

you can also forego NM tree and go druid instead, without staff.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAV8YjEqQLLWyCmrAVLWcEMmAwkry18tiVdA4k6UNrWiKTD-TZxBwA32fwxDA4yFB4bZAAHBAA

celestial is up often, and ancient seeds are constantly proccing. has a bit less survivability due to no Protective Ward and the extra vigor.

correct me if im wrong, but im finding glyphs to be ineffective currently, due to the delay in the condi cleanse. condi pressure is insane now.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAV8fjEqQLL2wCmrAVLWcEsmv1FoDwEAmcVO4k6UNrWi0rA-TpRAQBW4BA8hDCQELDAgLAAIOCA9Y/BA

This is a modification to an older build i used to run.

I love using druid and Ancient seeds, with Concussive shot and Spike Trap, the synergy on that feels really good.

I had to go with Signet of Stone, there’s too much bursty damage out there to not have this, especially when using Toll Unguent (in my opinion).

Overall, pretty good condi cleansing, between celestial form and survival skills (running 3 total).

Wolf for a little aoe fear, smokescale for some damage and blind.

I also went with Mercenary’s Amulet, a little more defensive than rabid, and the crit on Rabid is not as necessary when not using Sharpened Edges.

Other than that, I could use some help on runes for the shortbow. No crit means Sigil of Air/Fire are not worth (?).

Let me know what you guys think, thanks!

oooh i love this. i debated running torch instead of dagger. will give it a shot.

ive had some probs with the skirm/wilderness/druid spec due to lack of protection from Protective Ward. makes things hella hard at times.

mistsim.2748:

nish.2360:

mistsim.2748:

themillwater.5846:

mistsim.2748:

try this

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJAVWn0rCFsiVsCOsAUtgFDBjJAM6KdwZ1waa1519CmdlMtDA-TZRAQB7rMAAOCAMc/hOcBAowjAAA

Thank you very much, I will most definitely be giving this a shot.

alternatively, if u wanna go core ranger, and have unlimited condi cleansing in current meta:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAV8YjEqQLLWyCmrAVLGcEK/z71RnDgJvy7vNW7gSUZaA-TZxBwAXuIAfLDcb/BHPAAAHBAA

ive had better results with this. still trying to decide SoS vs. QZ. it’s really tanky and the CC + poison/bleed pressure eats druids for breakfast. for some reason, this build also crushes power revs and does fine against necros too.

you can also forego NM tree and go druid instead, without staff.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAV8YjEqQLLWyCmrAVLWcEMmAwkry18tiVdA4k6UNrWiKTD-TZxBwA32fwxDA4yFB4bZAAHBAA

celestial is up often, and ancient seeds are constantly proccing. has a bit less survivability due to no Protective Ward and the extra vigor.

correct me if im wrong, but im finding glyphs to be ineffective currently, due to the delay in the condi cleanse. condi pressure is insane now.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAV8fjEqQLL2wCmrAVLWcEsmv1FoDwEAmcVO4k6UNrWi0rA-TpRAQBW4BA8hDCQELDAgLAAIOCA9Y/BA

This is a modification to an older build i used to run.

I love using druid and Ancient seeds, with Concussive shot and Spike Trap, the synergy on that feels really good.

I had to go with Signet of Stone, there’s too much bursty damage out there to not have this, especially when using Toll Unguent (in my opinion).

Overall, pretty good condi cleansing, between celestial form and survival skills (running 3 total).

Wolf for a little aoe fear, smokescale for some damage and blind.

I also went with Mercenary’s Amulet, a little more defensive than rabid, and the crit on Rabid is not as necessary when not using Sharpened Edges.

Other than that, I could use some help on runes for the shortbow. No crit means Sigil of Air/Fire are not worth (?).

Let me know what you guys think, thanks!

oooh i love this. i debated running torch instead of dagger. will give it a shot.

ive had some probs with the skirm/wilderness/druid spec due to lack of protection from Protective Ward. makes things hella hard at times.

I guess Signet of Stone is my replacement for Protective Ward. Protective Ward does have a 15sec ICD, so I don’t think its that great. I guess technically you could drop Skirmishing for NM, but Light on your Feet is too useful for me, not to mention trap CDR.

But yeah, torch is definitely the way to go. Spike trap > Ancient Seed proc, bonfire, root them in fire. Plus Hydromancy on swap to chill just in case. I think it’s a good combo.

But this kinda build is risky imo, gotta evade well to not die fast lol. But at least if you’re getting overwhelmed, signet of stone, and git the fudge out.

nish.2360:

mistsim.2748:

nish.2360:

mistsim.2748:

themillwater.5846:

mistsim.2748:

try this

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJAVWn0rCFsiVsCOsAUtgFDBjJAM6KdwZ1waa1519CmdlMtDA-TZRAQB7rMAAOCAMc/hOcBAowjAAA

Thank you very much, I will most definitely be giving this a shot.

alternatively, if u wanna go core ranger, and have unlimited condi cleansing in current meta:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAV8YjEqQLLWyCmrAVLGcEK/z71RnDgJvy7vNW7gSUZaA-TZxBwAXuIAfLDcb/BHPAAAHBAA

ive had better results with this. still trying to decide SoS vs. QZ. it’s really tanky and the CC + poison/bleed pressure eats druids for breakfast. for some reason, this build also crushes power revs and does fine against necros too.

you can also forego NM tree and go druid instead, without staff.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAV8YjEqQLLWyCmrAVLWcEMmAwkry18tiVdA4k6UNrWiKTD-TZxBwA32fwxDA4yFB4bZAAHBAA

celestial is up often, and ancient seeds are constantly proccing. has a bit less survivability due to no Protective Ward and the extra vigor.

correct me if im wrong, but im finding glyphs to be ineffective currently, due to the delay in the condi cleanse. condi pressure is insane now.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAV8fjEqQLL2wCmrAVLWcEsmv1FoDwEAmcVO4k6UNrWi0rA-TpRAQBW4BA8hDCQELDAgLAAIOCA9Y/BA

This is a modification to an older build i used to run.

I love using druid and Ancient seeds, with Concussive shot and Spike Trap, the synergy on that feels really good.

I had to go with Signet of Stone, there’s too much bursty damage out there to not have this, especially when using Toll Unguent (in my opinion).

Overall, pretty good condi cleansing, between celestial form and survival skills (running 3 total).

Wolf for a little aoe fear, smokescale for some damage and blind.

I also went with Mercenary’s Amulet, a little more defensive than rabid, and the crit on Rabid is not as necessary when not using Sharpened Edges.

Other than that, I could use some help on runes for the shortbow. No crit means Sigil of Air/Fire are not worth (?).

Let me know what you guys think, thanks!

oooh i love this. i debated running torch instead of dagger. will give it a shot.

ive had some probs with the skirm/wilderness/druid spec due to lack of protection from Protective Ward. makes things hella hard at times.

I guess Signet of Stone is my replacement for Protective Ward. Protective Ward does have a 15sec ICD, so I don’t think its that great. I guess technically you could drop Skirmishing for NM, but Light on your Feet is too useful for me, not to mention trap CDR.

But yeah, torch is definitely the way to go. Spike trap > Ancient Seed proc, bonfire, root them in fire. Plus Hydromancy on swap to chill just in case. I think it’s a good combo.

But this kinda build is risky imo, gotta evade well to not die fast lol. But at least if you’re getting overwhelmed, signet of stone, and git the fudge out.

I did multiple testing on LOYF, Quickdraw is a much superior trait hands down.

StickerHappy.8052:

I did multiple testing on LOYF, Quickdraw is a much superior trait hands down.

if youre using the SB as your main weapon, then it really isnt. it might be better if you go staff/SB or something to that effect. LOYF is superior for SB using for the reasons in its description: flat CD reduction on ALL abilities (not just the one you immediately use upon switching), piercing allows concussive shot to land every time in team fights (this is huge), and the small perk of the extra condi damage.

Quickdraw is better if youre using axe or torch in your build, to repeat the nukes back to back. if youre relying on SB, LOYF is the better choice hands down. if a/d s/t builds were still a thing (which they are not, not by a long shot since cele and settler were removed), Quickdraw would be the better choice. with the removal of cele and settler, it was a nail in the coffin for the niche condi bunker ranger builds, which werent even that good.

mistsim.2748:

StickerHappy.8052:

I did multiple testing on LOYF, Quickdraw is a much superior trait hands down.

if youre using the SB as your main weapon, then it really isnt. it might be better if you go staff/SB or something to that effect. LOYF is superior for SB using for the reasons in its description: flat CD reduction on ALL abilities (not just the one you immediately use upon switching), piercing allows concussive shot to land every time in team fights (this is huge), and the small perk of the extra condi damage.

Quickdraw is better if youre using axe or torch in your build, to repeat the nukes back to back. if youre relying on SB, LOYF is the better choice hands down. if a/d s/t builds were still a thing (which they are not, not by a long shot since cele and settler were removed), Quickdraw would be the better choice. with the removal of cele and settler, it was a nail in the coffin for the niche condi bunker ranger builds, which werent even that good.

Piercing is super situational tho for a CC like concussion shot, the target must be in a line for it to be effective.

also that 900 range…

you wont be able to land concussive shot reliably in a team fight without piercing arrows. not when there are 4-7 character models in a small area (counting mesmer clones, pets, and such). but i wouldnt pick LOYF just for this reason though. it just has too many other good perks imo.

mistsim.2748:

you wont be able to land concussive shot reliably in a team fight without piercing arrows. not when there are 4-7 character models in a small area (counting mesmer clones, pets, and such). but i wouldnt pick LOYF just for this reason though. it just has too many other good perks imo.

What perks? Imo the other effects are mediocre at best for a GM trait.

StickerHappy.8052:

mistsim.2748:

you wont be able to land concussive shot reliably in a team fight without piercing arrows. not when there are 4-7 character models in a small area (counting mesmer clones, pets, and such). but i wouldnt pick LOYF just for this reason though. it just has too many other good perks imo.

What perks? Imo the other effects are mediocre at best for a GM trait.

read.

whether or not it’s GM-worthy is debatable.

mistsim.2748:

StickerHappy.8052:

mistsim.2748:

you wont be able to land concussive shot reliably in a team fight without piercing arrows. not when there are 4-7 character models in a small area (counting mesmer clones, pets, and such). but i wouldnt pick LOYF just for this reason though. it just has too many other good perks imo.

What perks? Imo the other effects are mediocre at best for a GM trait.

read.

whether or not it’s GM-worthy is debatable.

That was a rhetorical question.

10% damage and 10% condi duration for 4 seconds? this is hardly a GM worthy trait. and you need to burn a dodge for it?

If this procced on evade I would agree with you. but this is such a terrible trait apart from the SB cds and pierce.

StickerHappy.8052:

mistsim.2748:

StickerHappy.8052:

mistsim.2748:

you wont be able to land concussive shot reliably in a team fight without piercing arrows. not when there are 4-7 character models in a small area (counting mesmer clones, pets, and such). but i wouldnt pick LOYF just for this reason though. it just has too many other good perks imo.

What perks? Imo the other effects are mediocre at best for a GM trait.

read.

whether or not it’s GM-worthy is debatable.

That was a rhetorical question.

10% damage and 10% condi duration for 4 seconds? this is hardly a GM worthy trait. and you need to burn a dodge for it?

If this procced on evade I would agree with you. but this is such a terrible trait apart from the SB cds and pierce.

Guy, I think the argument here isn’t whether LOYF if a GM worthy trait, its more about playstyle and scenarios that come up in a pvp match. Yeah, if you’re just looking for the most damage, I agree, Quick Swap is better. If you’re looking for better utility, LOYF is the way to go. It isn’t a great talent, they need to buff it a bit, but of the choices in the Skirmishing tree, I personally would use LOYF since I use my SB as my main weapon.

my point is: to get the most of out the SB, LOYF is better for 1) the piercing which is helpful, and 2) the flat CD reduction on all SB abilities. Quickdraw is better on other condi weapons like torch or MH axe, and power builds obviously.