Guild Wars 2

So I read a lot of hate towards longbow and to be honest, I never really liked it and thus never really played it aswell. I always thought it is this crappy weapon for PvE or WvW zerg sheep that like to stand still and shoot.

I was wrong. I recently tried it out and it is a lot more fun and actually more interactive/challenging to use than SB. The damage is generated in bigger chunks making it more vulnerable and also worse vs aegis/other blocks. Making mistakes is much less forgiving like using Point Blank Shot vs a stability target or using Rapid Fire a moment too late before the thief stealths making it unable to track and hit him with it. For shortbow the only really challening skills seems to be 5 and some clutch 3 dodges and even those feel spammy the way they are usually used.

Question is: How does the actualy damage compare. A weapon might be more fun to use but it actually has to get work done. And after looking at the skill modifiers, animation times and cooldowns I actually think that the difference is pretty minimal. I wont provide fancy calaculations here but what I realised:

Shortbow:

• SB has definitely a stronger autoattack that hits for more even if LB would constantly hit his max range shots
• SB has no other skills to boost its damage over autoattacking though
• SB gets hit harder by quickness nerf because it is more directed towards continues autoattack pressure than swapping it, use the skill rotation and swap back again

Longbow:

• assuming you attack your targets with the 10 stacks of vulnerability of Hunter’s shot most of the time it will deal more damage than SB on max range
• assuming you use the weapon less for autoattacking but rather swap it in for skills 2-5 it will deal equal damage or more damage than SB on a 10 seconds interval (which allows you to swap again after that), also range doesn’t matter here

I recently run LB in WvW a lot and I really like it. More utility and while it helps in more zergy situations I feel like not performing worse in smaller skirmishes or 1on1s. You just have to use it right which means autoattacking as little as possible most of the time. Swapping it in for 3 -> 4 -> 2 and than continue with my alternate weapon again is amazing. On top of that it offers huge advantages versus thiefs and mesmers over SB due to the tracking of 2 and the AoE targeting of 5.

What do you think?

For me the LB is too stand-off for solo fighting (or small group where I’m principal aggressor). I’ve grown up in WvW on an Engi (Pistol and Pots). It’s all about timing the opponents attacks and keeping up the pressure. LB doesn’t do that for me. In small group fights you will be closed on. (Although I’ll always remember the staff guardian that tried to range me. Guess he’d never looked at the range on his auto-attack. He must have thought I had about 4000 armor.) Given that you’ll be closed on the auto-attack on LB is now less than ideal. Less damage up close and no condition to keep the pressure on. (Put a 30% on crit 2s cripple below 500 on it and you’d really be on to something. — Oh yay. Synergy with Frost trap! Oh boo. 30s cooldown.) So you try #2 and maybe quickness from util or pet swap. Except your target has just side-dodged or dodged rolled through you and half the damage is gonna be lost. #3 and #4 are solid but on too long a cooldown to be fight changers. (I’d love to see Hunter’s Shot also have a 3s cripple so your pet can chew on em a bit.) #5 against someone who’s also traited for fighting solo/small is gonna be laughed at and just locks you in place.

That said if you deliberately take a backseat to someone else a lot of those negatives turn positive. Opening shot + Hunters + pet opener is 20 vulnerability (If I’m doing the math correctly.) Dodging #2 is much less likely if you have even a touch of range to prevent a huge slew or them getting behind you on dodge. #4 + wolf + hound is going to let you take pressure of the other fighter(s) and/or set up time-on-target bursts. #1 and #5 are still meh but hey, auto-fire and/or extra damage without much risk.

My $0.02 anyway. Not saying it doesn’t work. Saying it doesn’t work for my playstyle.

tl;dr – LB is a support weapon that utilizes the idea that the best defense is a good offense rather than condition CC — but only if you aren’t in a melee-range furball.

Lanny is very much correct. The LB is not suited for people who like to skirmish as it penalises you for doing so (reduction in damage within certain range). You can still use it in a skirmish, though it requires much more skill than using a SB.

SB is designed for the close in fighting/mid range. It has a faster auto attack which allows for a more fluid dodging play style. Also the conditions it provides also synergise with the play style.

The LB design is to be used at very long range. It is perfect for zerg warfare and sieges. It is also a control weapon. There is great synergy between LB and spirits which usually means a lot more static kind of warfare.

trying to use a LB like a SB and claiming it doesn’t work or vice versa doesn’t actually give proper representation of the weapons and its role.

Lanny.6987:

For me the LB is too stand-off for solo fighting (or small group where I’m principal aggressor). I’ve grown up in WvW on an Engi (Pistol and Pots). It’s all about timing the opponents attacks and keeping up the pressure. LB doesn’t do that for me. In small group fights you will be closed on. (Although I’ll always remember the staff guardian that tried to range me. Guess he’d never looked at the range on his auto-attack. He must have thought I had about 4000 armor.) Given that you’ll be closed on the auto-attack on LB is now less than ideal. Less damage up close and no condition to keep the pressure on. (Put a 30% on crit 2s cripple below 500 on it and you’d really be on to something. — Oh yay. Synergy with Frost trap! Oh boo. 30s cooldown.) So you try #2 and maybe quickness from util or pet swap. Except your target has just side-dodged or dodged rolled through you and half the damage is gonna be lost. #3 and #4 are solid but on too long a cooldown to be fight changers. (I’d love to see Hunter’s Shot also have a 3s cripple so your pet can chew on em a bit.) #5 against someone who’s also traited for fighting solo/small is gonna be laughed at and just locks you in place.

That said if you deliberately take a backseat to someone else a lot of those negatives turn positive. Opening shot + Hunters + pet opener is 20 vulnerability (If I’m doing the math correctly.) Dodging #2 is much less likely if you have even a touch of range to prevent a huge slew or them getting behind you on dodge. #4 + wolf + hound is going to let you take pressure of the other fighter(s) and/or set up time-on-target bursts. #1 and #5 are still meh but hey, auto-fire and/or extra damage without much risk.

My $0.02 anyway. Not saying it doesn’t work. Saying it doesn’t work for my playstyle.

tl;dr – LB is a support weapon that utilizes the idea that the best defense is a good offense rather than condition CC — but only if you aren’t in a melee-range furball.

What makes this different from shortbow? Yes, they will close up but imo LB is atleast equal in its ability to make this harder for the opponent with the knockback (15s vs 25s on concussion shot).

And for the damage, as I said, it will be worse when you play it just like you would play SB. However if you get used to frequent swap in/swap outs you will see that the DPS difference nearly vanishes. You don’t have to use the autoattack if played like that and what you get is the possibility to DPS stealthed targets, a very strong CC that generates range and an ally, pet and self dmg supporting Hunter’s Shot.

I really played SB for months in WvW and now after switching to LB I actually feel saver than with SB when facing gap closing melee classes.

KensaiZen.3740:

Lanny is very much correct. The LB is not suited for people who like to skirmish as it penalises you for doing so (reduction in damage within certain range). You can still use it in a skirmish, though it requires much more skill than using a SB.

SB is designed for the close in fighting/mid range. It has a faster auto attack which allows for a more fluid dodging play style. Also the conditions it provides also synergise with the play style.

The LB design is to be used at very long range. It is perfect for zerg warfare and sieges. It is also a control weapon. There is great synergy between LB and spirits which usually means a lot more static kind of warfare.

trying to use a LB like a SB and claiming it doesn’t work or vice versa doesn’t actually give proper representation of the weapons and its role.

I very much disagree and try to elaborate my point again. The only part of its design that limits it to long range is the autoattack. Playing the way I described above (maximizing the use of wepaon swap every 10 sec) this limitation vanishes. Just using 2, 3 and 4 (and those skills are nearly always beneficial) will take 7-8 seconds. This means you maybe have to do 1 single autoattack and only if you don’t heal or use utilities. I actually think about getting runes of the warrior for the 9 second weapon swap to focus even more on this playstyle.

Edit: Because I read you played Engineer Pistol. That is a very good comparison. Engineer was my first class too. Just like you would never really autoattack with Engi Pistol (rather use 2 and 3, then swap to kits) I don’t autoattack with LB and swap to my secondary weapon when I have the skills on cooldown.

It’d be really interesting actually if anyone has done the math. To see actual dmg coefficients between the 2 weapons to compare could be really valuable I think.

Point blank shot on longbow. That skill alone is the key reason why I use it for sPvP and WvW. Proven way too useful in so many situations.

Unless the target has stability of course :P

Joey.3928:

Point blank shot on longbow. That skill alone is the key reason why I use it for sPvP and WvW. Proven way too useful in so many situations.

Unless the target has stability of course :P

Indeed. When I was pleased when I managed to interrupt a heal with SB 5 Poin Blank actually always feels like achieving something … on nearly half the cooldown.

jewishjoyride.4693:

It’d be really interesting actually if anyone has done the math. To see actual dmg coefficients between the 2 weapons to compare could be really valuable I think.

The numbers are all on the wiki.

SB autoattack has a 0.4 skill dmg modifier and attacks ~1.9 times a second. This means about 0.76 per second but none of the other skills will increase dps. I also has bleeds.

LB autoattack has a 0.9/0.65/0.5 modifier and attacks 0.8 times a second. This will mean 0.72/0.52/0.4 per second. However Rapid Fire deals 3.75 over 5 seconds on any range which means 0.75 per second or 0.825 per second if you use Hunter’s Shot first.

Longbow sucks if you keep autoattacking with it on medium/low range but since it has many other things it can do instead of autoattacking on those ranges this doesn’t really hurt. It just offers better utility (in a wvw meta full of thiefs and mesmers exspecially) without a real drop of dps.

I loved the LB in WvW as well, I am unsure why it gets as much hate as it does. Its great in many situations, and despite is decreasing damage and apparent poor use at short range, its fantastic and killing thieves.

What I disliked about it and made me favour SB in the end (after having use both together for months) is that its hard to actually kill people who run away, in my experience. Point blank shot shoots people away from you, which is unhelpful often when you are chasing them, and its auto attack can be simply side stepped. You dont even need to dodge roll to avoid it… just change direction as the arrow leaves the bow and you’ll dodge it. The same can be done against rapid fire, although you’ll likely still get hit a little. I just found it too frustrating watching half my arrows missing even when the person didnt know how they were avoiding them.. just my moving in a randomish way they dodge your shots.

I still miss point blank shot and of cause barrage, but just for those it wasnt worth keeping for me.

Yes the numbers show that there is no way that LB beats SB on a targets trying to run away. But they also show us that the overall DPS difference can be reduced to a minimum when playing the weapon right. What is left are 2 different weapons that both will be better than the other one in specific situations.

The reason LB draws hate is because the 1 skill is so poor compared to SB, it feels slow and seems to do less damage given targets are always short to medium range…

However, the other 4 skills on LB are very useful in my opinion, the 5 skill is especially good because its AoE which kills faster, tags more targets so gets you more loot.

I use SB in PvP because you have alot of close combat 1vs1 or small group vs small group, so its better because of speed/damage it does.

However, in WvW I prefer LB because the 5 skill is great on zergs, especially if you follow it with quickness, less effective now with the recent nerf of course…

Thanks! Gotta love the wiki. I don’t know how I missed that on there.

According to the coefficients on the wiki then, Barrage would also increase your dmg output over autto attacking. The wiki says C is 4.8 with a cast time of 2.75 sec giving you about 1.75 a sec. Is that right?

So overall running quick draw would increase your utility with SB and increase your dps with LB?

why dont you just use both long and short bow…swapping weapons in battle gives you swiftness and furry?

Gigantic.8042:

why dont you just use both long and short bow…swapping weapons in battle gives you swiftness and furry?

Because as somone mentioned. In small skirmishes or 1on1s they will be able to close up and I don’t want to be stuck with ranged weapons then that are naturally inferior in damage.

Barrage damage is nice but you cannot assume people will keep standing in it.

I run LB/GS in spvp. The build pretty much is berserk gear and full gc.
Pretty much, what the build comes down to is knowing when to run. Prolonged battles kill you. Had nice long duels against an engineer once but they are usually the exception. It’s all about sitting back, knowing when to strike and knowing when to run.
Typically, you will run around and try to snipe opponents which are engaged in duels with quick vuln and burst for an easy picking, then search out the next engagement, while avoiding duels unless someone blows their skills, trying to catch you, then you turn around, vuln, rapid fire, knockback, swoop into hilt bash and maul.
Elevations are your friend, flat areas your enemy. Use the terrain. I have still yet to try switching to SB on flat area. Will probably be the better weapon thre.
It’s the type of gameplay that can net you the most kills out of all players in a game, without a single death, while your team still loses. Cause holding points with this paper thin build is just not possible. I typically run spirit of nature tho, which can allow you to hold a point against a single bunker or even two, if they suck, for quite long

TL;DR, if you wanna go LB, go all out damage, unless you only want it for the vuln in a beastmaster build.

Lately for fun I’ve been using shortbow and longbow and honestly with a little more utility I think the longbow would be worth it for me. I’m finding this new build a lot of fun.

The reason people dislike the longbow is its low effective damage. Theoretically it has some great skills, but you have to keep max range for it to even compete with shortbow, autoattack and rapid fire can be evaded just by strafing and are often obstructed by terrain, and barrage is outright impossible to land on a human opponent for more than a second or two.

Until the recent quickness nerf, the low overall damage was partially compensated for by the ability to spike out kills with Barrage (now it does 150% damage over time rather than 200%, that’s a 25% damage reduction to LB’s strongest skill). It’s still great for tagging enemies in a zerg, but if you really want to be competitive then you’d do better with shortbow or melee IMO.

EDIT: ikittenerg? Weird language filtering there, I was trying to say “in a group (zerg)”

I won’t claim to be great at WvW, but lately I’ve been getting my own ingrained habits from previous mmos and had some success with it.

A big aspect to success, or at least a great help, is switching weapons. Not swapping between sets, but equipping the correct sets. Whenever I’m moving in WvW I use axw/horn and sb. If the fight is small and mobile I keep with that set. If its a seige, either side, or some area where there’s a convnient choke point, I’ll switch sb to lb. Similarly I’ll switch out some utility slots for traps, and my traits to make them targetable, and piercing shots for eagle eye. Dropping some combination of Muddy Terrain, Frost Trap, and Spike Trap will both slow your enemies down enough that Barrage has a good chance of hitting them for its full length, and also similarly make them better targets for everyone else.

Being able to target drop traps in front of your own keep, then drop Barrage on top of it is also fun. Granted standing up on your wall isn’t wise to do for long, but isn’t necessarily garuanteed death.

Similarly, when assaulting any keep in WvW if you can get to the base of the wall, your targetable traps can be placed so they hit people on the walls, and again follow up with barrage.

Aside from my anecdotal notes, just understand that ALL weapons and utilities are situational. Any particular build should be seen as a guide, or a suggestion. No one build will excel in all situations. So while you can’t change your trait points, feel free to change your trait skills between battles depending on what you expect.

jewishjoyride.4693:

It’d be really interesting actually if anyone has done the math. To see actual dmg coefficients between the 2 weapons to compare could be really valuable I think.

I’ve done the testing on shortbow vs longbow soooooooo many times, people just go “Well in a real scenario you don’t get to stand that far away!” or some other excuse and throw LB under the matt.

I mean, i’m sorry, when you’re a 30/30/0/0/10 build + berserker amulet in the mists, you can 3 shot the heavy target dummy with some lucky crits.

A LOT of the testing just goes “Shortbow behind does more damage than longbow at 1500 away!” well god i’d hope so because in a 30/30/0/0/10 build short bow (and longbow) get 10% more damage for flanking, which they don’t get on their longbow because they never flank during the tests…

Longbow > Shortbow when you take all your longbow advantages, not to mention longbow also can have burst and shortbow can not.

Durzlla.6295:

jewishjoyride.4693:

It’d be really interesting actually if anyone has done the math. To see actual dmg coefficients between the 2 weapons to compare could be really valuable I think.

I’ve done the testing on shortbow vs longbow soooooooo many times, people just go “Well in a real scenario you don’t get to stand that far away!” or some other excuse and throw LB under the matt.

I mean, i’m sorry, when you’re a 30/30/0/0/10 build + berserker amulet in the mists, you can 3 shot the heavy target dummy with some lucky crits.

A LOT of the testing just goes “Shortbow behind does more damage than longbow at 1500 away!” well god i’d hope so because in a 30/30/0/0/10 build short bow (and longbow) get 10% more damage for flanking, which they don’t get on their longbow because they never flank during the tests…

Longbow > Shortbow when you take all your longbow advantages, not to mention longbow also can have burst and shortbow can not.

Well it’s also a lot easier to get that 10% flanking bonus while skirmishing at close range than standing at 1500. On the other hand, it’s unlikely you’ll keep full endurance very long for the +10% bonus from that marksmanship adept so I guess it kind of evens out.

Regardless, the main issue with the longbow is that it’s so much easier for your opponents to avoid the bulk of its damage. SB is constant, stable damage at any range, while LB relies on maintaining 1000+ distance and landing barrage. I heartily disagree with Anet’s comment that the longbow needs more defensive capabilities, IMO it just needs to connect more easily (eg. built in immobilize like warrior lb pin, faster channel time for barrage).

Daemon.4295:

Durzlla.6295:

jewishjoyride.4693:

It’d be really interesting actually if anyone has done the math. To see actual dmg coefficients between the 2 weapons to compare could be really valuable I think.

I’ve done the testing on shortbow vs longbow soooooooo many times, people just go “Well in a real scenario you don’t get to stand that far away!” or some other excuse and throw LB under the matt.

I mean, i’m sorry, when you’re a 30/30/0/0/10 build + berserker amulet in the mists, you can 3 shot the heavy target dummy with some lucky crits.

A LOT of the testing just goes “Shortbow behind does more damage than longbow at 1500 away!” well god i’d hope so because in a 30/30/0/0/10 build short bow (and longbow) get 10% more damage for flanking, which they don’t get on their longbow because they never flank during the tests…

Longbow > Shortbow when you take all your longbow advantages, not to mention longbow also can have burst and shortbow can not.

Well it’s also a lot easier to get that 10% flanking bonus while skirmishing at close range than standing at 1500. On the other hand, it’s unlikely you’ll keep full endurance very long for the +10% bonus from that marksmanship adept so I guess it kind of evens out.

Regardless, the main issue with the longbow is that it’s so much easier for your opponents to avoid the bulk of its damage. SB is constant, stable damage at any range, while LB relies on maintaining 1000+ distance and landing barrage. I heartily disagree with Anet’s comment that the longbow needs more defensive capabilities, IMO it just needs to connect more easily (eg. built in immobilize like warrior lb pin, faster channel time for barrage).

I was talking purely about damage (well LB has greater control too because of barrage and KB shot), but yeah, it needs some defense and ways to keep the gap open a bit longer, I think a short cripple on LB shot would be useful.

When I see a Ranger with a longbow, I close on them unless it’s simply too large of a zerg. They have one chance to gain some space from me unless they are using traps/muddy terrain and it is very easy to block or dodge roll it. Once I’m close to them, their #2 is only going to do the same dps as a shortbow ranger hitting me in the face (lol), #3 is going to put vuln on me, and #5 is going to force them to stand still.

When I see a longbow ranger, I see a free lunch.

Sebrent.3625:

When I see a Ranger with a longbow, I close on them unless it’s simply too large of a zerg. They have one chance to gain some space from me unless they are using traps/muddy terrain and it is very easy to block or dodge roll it. Once I’m close to them, their #2 is only going to do the same dps as a shortbow ranger hitting me in the face (lol), #3 is going to put vuln on me, and #5 is going to force them to stand still.

When I see a longbow ranger, I see a free lunch.

You see… this is why we have 2 weapon sets, if the ranger let you close with the longbow and then was stupid enough to NOT swap to a melee weapon then they deserve to die and i’d hope you’d kill such a poor player…

I’m liking how this thread is going and am glad to see some constructive talk and tests done with these 2 weapons.
To add my 2c/experience/tests in, the biggest differences between the longbow/shortbow are shown in practice(I’ll elaborate after my next point).

One thing that throws off a lot of people off is how each weapon (not just the bows) appear versus how they function. Examples: shortbow appears to be a rangers main choice for ranged condition damage on a weapon set. Longbow then, by comparison, would be the logical choice for a power spec. However, when the damage on the longbow basically matches the shortbow in a majority of instances, it is hard to justify using a longbow in a power spec in comparison to the longbow, and the longbow, due to its skills function, gets relegated to a utility weapon.
The Axe/MH sword/greatsword trinity, because of the updates, now reflects a much clearer function for each weapon (condition/utility/power) respectively.
(note that in terms of these weapons, I am not saying that you can’t run them in certain specs, but that each weapon has a focus on an role based on the damage and functions of skills as a whole on its bar).

Whether the longbow was MEANT to be a utility weapon, or whether it was designed as a the equalizer to its condition variant (the shortbow), only the devs know. But people are upset because logically, the shortbow has every indication that it is the condition weapon and thereby the longbow should be able to do equal damage with equal power, and then out DPS in a glass build.

The other “in practice” point I mentioned was that personally I love longbow… against dummies. But primarily speaking from an spvp point of view, in fights, an opponent is going to do everything they can to make sure you can’t hit them, and most opponents will attempt to close the gap and then strafe around you at a close distance (if they are ranged as well) attempting to break your line of sight and cancel you skills, while melee opponents do the same, but up in your face.
In this situation, the shortbow outshines the longbow simply because of the firerate (challenge: name ANY game where players don’t have the tendency to favor high fire rate weapons), because landing more arrows means higher DPS, and the longbow does not do the damage per arrow to keep up the the shortbows more consistent damage output against an active player.

The longbow could really in the end just use more access to CC options (through either utilities/weapon skills/traits) that have a fair cooldown but allow the longbow user to keep a more constant pressure on a target than what they are capable of. That’s just my opinion though, some people are fine with its utility role. I want it to be a power weapon (over just utility) because I enjoy the skills on it better than shortbow, but longbow is just impractical for how I play in spvp at the end of the day.

Yes, once I’ve closed on that Ranger, they can swap to their other weapon set … but now they only have one weapon set that is useful in the fight against me.

When comparing shortbow, it does the same direct damage as longbow, if not better. Then you factor in the times you get to a flank and it bleeds … not it is ahead. Now factor in that shortbow hits more often so can proc more. It’s ahead even more. Now take bleed-on-crit. You’ll crit more as you hit more so even more ahead of longbow. Now look at how shortbow can apply bleeding and poison as well as interrupt from 1,200 range, evade, swiftness and it’s no wonder it is superior to the very lackluster longbow.

LB may be at its best at range but it is still viable at close Range. Why? because weapon swap.

LB/GS – use LB to shoot from far. Use barrage over yourself as enemy closes. Swap to GS and fight for 10 seconds. Swap back for Rapid fire burst at point blank range (this negates the moving back and forth dodging the arrows that can be done at max range)

You even have the choice of LB/SB. Use LB at 1200-1500 range. Swap to SB when below 1200 range.

I don’t think anyone uses the LB for its auto.

Now the question. Does the bleed damage from SB = to the same as the LB burst at point blank range?

KensaiZen.3740:

LB may be at its best at range but it is still viable at close Range. Why? because weapon swap.

LB/GS – use LB to shoot from far. Use barrage over yourself as enemy closes. Swap to GS and fight for 10 seconds. Swap back for Rapid fire burst at point blank range (this negates the moving back and forth dodging the arrows that can be done at max range)

You even have the choice of LB/SB. Use LB at 1200-1500 range. Swap to SB when below 1200 range.

I don’t think anyone uses the LB for its auto.

Now the question. Does the bleed damage from SB = to the same as the LB burst at point blank range?

Just to nitpick the logic a little, you (and you aren’t the first in the thread to do it) have just described how a weapon combination is viable, or even why the greatsword is viable.
Just to be clear, I’m not disagreeing. But if this is supposed to be a direct comparison of longbow vs shortbow, then there shouldn’t be other weapons factored in. It should be a comparison of how each weapon performs and how it compares to the other at close/medium/long range, and what each weapon has access to on the skill bar and through utilities/traits to make it more viable.

The type of comparison you made is like me using a (just an example) pool noodle and rocket launcher combo. I can hit somebody with the noodle all day and it not be effective, then gib them with a rocket launcher. But that doesn’t make the noodle a more viable choice, that makes the rocket launcher a more viable choice.

Just like a person can swap to Longbow and use it’s non-auto-attacks, that same person can swap to Shortbow and “shotgun” a poison volley, cripple (more reliable pet hits now) and have pet apply bleeds, daze/stun, and evade while gaining a little swiftness. And then, if not yet ready to swap back to their other weapon, they can stay in shortbow for a bit longer and still be useful.

KensaiZen.3740:

Now the question. Does the bleed damage from SB = to the same as the LB burst at point blank range?

I assume you mean LB 3 → LB 2 when you speak of burst dmg at point blank?

You would have to specify what traits you have when figuring this out. SB needs to flank to get bleeds, but do you have the trait for increased damage while flanking?

Does the person using the LB have the same traits, if so are they also behind the target?

And over what period of time? If you mean only during the time it takes to get LB burst off, then obviously LB will have higher dmg, that’s what burst means.

I would be curious myself if someone could come up with solid, explainable, numbers to present.

jcbroe.4329:

KensaiZen.3740:

LB may be at its best at range but it is still viable at close Range. Why? because weapon swap.

LB/GS – use LB to shoot from far. Use barrage over yourself as enemy closes. Swap to GS and fight for 10 seconds. Swap back for Rapid fire burst at point blank range (this negates the moving back and forth dodging the arrows that can be done at max range)

You even have the choice of LB/SB. Use LB at 1200-1500 range. Swap to SB when below 1200 range.

I don’t think anyone uses the LB for its auto.

Now the question. Does the bleed damage from SB = to the same as the LB burst at point blank range?

Just to nitpick the logic a little, you (and you aren’t the first in the thread to do it) have just described how a weapon combination is viable, or even why the greatsword is viable.
Just to be clear, I’m not disagreeing. But if this is supposed to be a direct comparison of longbow vs shortbow, then there shouldn’t be other weapons factored in. It should be a comparison of how each weapon performs and how it compares to the other at close/medium/long range, and what each weapon has access to on the skill bar and through utilities/traits to make it more viable.

The type of comparison you made is like me using a (just an example) pool noodle and rocket launcher combo. I can hit somebody with the noodle all day and it not be effective, then gib them with a rocket launcher. But that doesn’t make the noodle a more viable choice, that makes the rocket launcher a more viable choice.

My comparisons have to include weapon swapping as it is a more realistic way to judge the weapon. If you only calculate with pure numbers and not factor in conditions such as battle situations and builds, the numbers you come out with will just be floating numbers that have no “true” impact on the class.

Can you actually compare SB to LB? both are designed to be used in different situations. Can you compare an apple to an orange? they are both fruit.

Yeah … the orange tastes horrible after brushing your teeth. The apple does not.

The longbow is horrible except when your targets are at max range … and even then they sidestep arrows some. The shortbow is good in every situation that the longbow is “supposedly” good. The longbow is not good in every situation that the shortbow is good.

@KensaiZen;

But what I’m saying is that when you add in so many variables, you lose the point you are trying to make. For example, the greatsword could just be a great complimentary weapon to other weapons. But you would have to factor in usage statistics and damage statistics and such.
Also, for factoring in weapon swaps, that is making the assumption that everybody plays the weapon in that way. For example, I could be a person that used a shortbow for all of my damage, then switches to my MH sword at 20% health for the evades while my heal is about to come off cooldown, and never use it for damage ever. Or, I could fluently switch and use each weapon an equal amount of time to damage an opponent. etc etc etc.

If we are testing weapon swaps, we have to test every single weapon combination with every possible build setup and compare DPS, and then cross compare DPS across which weapon is being used primarily or whether they are being using evenly.

That is why I am suggesting a bow test, and why I made it a point to highlight that each weapon for the rangers has an intended role (barring the longbow). Axe does condition damage, greatsword is a power heavy weapon, MH sword is a utility weapon based on evades and leaps, with poison and cripple support. Shortbow is a condition damage with control options. What is the longbows role?
If longbows role is a utility role, that’s fine. But in comparison to having another option as a ranged weapon, it would make more logical sense for the longbow to be a power variant of the ranged perspective, and in that case, it does not perform equally against the shortbow, which is why the majority of people have an issue with it, because they feel pigeonholed into the shortbow regardless of how they choose to damage the opponent (if they want to use some type of bow).

I’m not comparing apples to oranges, I’m comparing a bow and how it functions to another bow and how it functions across a span of different combat scenarios that you could be in while using the bow, to see which bow outperforms the other and at what.

Semil.8279:

KensaiZen.3740:

Now the question. Does the bleed damage from SB = to the same as the LB burst at point blank range?

I assume you mean LB 3 -> LB 2 when you speak of burst dmg at point blank?

You would have to specify what traits you have when figuring this out. SB needs to flank to get bleeds, but do you have the trait for increased damage while flanking?

Does the person using the LB have the same traits, if so are they also behind the target?

And over what period of time? If you mean only during the time it takes to get LB burst off, then obviously LB will have higher dmg, that’s what burst means.

I would be curious myself if someone could come up with solid, explainable, numbers to present.

In a combat situation the likeliness of flanking someone is very slim.

Both parties will be build to have 100% combat effectiveness ie condition build for SB and power build for LB.

Then its a factor of play style vs playstyle. LB is always paired with another weapon. SB users generally don’t weapon swap. What are the actual effective numbers when this scenario is in play.

There are many scenarios and factors that have to be calculated to get a “true” number. Basing everything on potential damage is worthless. How many times do you find yourself in a situation where you are always flanking someone?

So you’ve answered your own question. Originally you wanted to know how sb’s bleeds compare to lb burst. Now you say you’re unlikely to ever flank someone. So in that instance the burst will be higher, because the sb can’t bleed.

Are you trying to compare the bleeds alone vs. longbow burst, or the whole of sb damage during a span of time? We can agree that counting on flanking someone during a battle is a poor decision, so it would be equally unwise to have a condition build based on bleeds from sb 1.

It is precisely because there are so many factors involved that I might come across as belligerent or nitpicky. I’m trying to nail down exactly what you’re trying to test. We can’t test “sb is better than lb” because, as we both agree, there are so many situations and circumstances effecting performance that its impossible to have one answer to such a broad question.

Even if we were to ask: “Given a fairly mobile battle, with a mid-number of players (approx 5 on each side), would the shortbow outperform the longbow?” this situation would be incomplete because we can’t account for the professions with us or against us, and how cc effects might change potential damage situations for a shortbow or longbow, or how terrain could give you an advantage with either weapon.

So I’m asking that you try to be a little more specific in what you’re asking, so we all know what question to answer.

Dojo.1867:

I recently tried [LB] out and it is a lot more fun and actually more interactive/challenging to use than SB. The damage is generated in bigger chunks making it more vulnerable and also worse vs aegis/other blocks. Making mistakes is much less forgiving like using Point Blank Shot vs a stability target or using Rapid Fire a moment too late before the thief stealths making it unable to track and hit him with it. For shortbow the only really challening skills seems to be 5 and some clutch 3 dodges and even those feel spammy the way they are usually used.

That doesn’t sound like fun, interaction or challenging play, those sound like significant drawbacks of the LB.

Skill 1: Requires extreme range. All an enemy has to do is rush you and this skill is bummed. Slow RoF means low crit-rate, something that SB can more than make up for with high precision, especially being able to make use of [on-crit] abilities and traits. Warrior solved this by firing two projectiles. Dual Shot originated as a ranger skill in Guild Wars, and it’s now a melee profession’s auto-attack. Just wow.

Skill 2: Enemy kite/dodge/reflect or as you say, badly time the skill or track a target by an obstacle and this skill is boned. It also has a long charge of five seconds to burn through. If you compare the activation periods with warrior, you will again see it avoids this with very fast skills.

Skill 3: Vulnerability. Whoopdee do. Some bigger numbers will appear until someone is smart enough to cleanse. In PvE, especially with other professions like necro and mesmer, this skill is debatable but, in the end, is a one-trick pony. Who cares about pet swiftness?

Skill 4: A useful skill no doubt, but hardly sufficient, especially in PvE where you get an extra second to catch your breath. This is the point where LB looks incoherent. Note that doesn’t mean ineffective, but it seems more like the designers just added what sounded useful rather than make something unique and interesting.

Skill 5: A proper AoE that’s easily disrupted or dodged. Poor damage, poor condition (cripple) and they don’t even count as projectiles. But the real kicker is the undeniably better conjured Frost Bow that can wipe burrows in AC, which starts to beg the question of why anyone not running a ranger should roll one.

Overall I’m supporting ranger as a good damage-dealer (single-target), but that’s hardly the conversation that needs to happen with ranger bows. Such a lack of satisfaction and mechanics; they’re boring and much of the energy and creativity of the bow has been siphoned out to fill other professions.

The Longbow is a max ranged weapon. This is clearly highlighted by being penalised for being too close to the enemy. It’s applications are clear in the design of the weapon.

Now if you were to try and use that weapon not to its design then complain that it doesn’t work very well…. that’s just a bit silly isn’t it.

The Sb was designed to be used within a 1200 range. Quick firing condition based weapon which compliments fluid playstyles where a lot of dodging and moving is key to success.

The LB is designed to be a static weapon. Shoots over 1200. Has greater CC abilities. Higher burst damage capabilities.

These weapons are designed to be used differently. Once you have their potential damage numbers, do you then subtract according to situations and scenarios?

This is a very similar discussion to the one in the Guardians forum about Hammer and GS.

Semil.8279:

So you’ve answered your own question. Originally you wanted to know how sb’s bleeds compare to lb burst. Now you say you’re unlikely to ever flank someone. So in that instance the burst will be higher, because the sb can’t bleed.

Are you trying to compare the bleeds alone vs. longbow burst, or the whole of sb damage during a span of time? We can agree that counting on flanking someone during a battle is a poor decision, so it would be equally unwise to have a condition build based on bleeds from sb 1.

It is precisely because there are so many factors involved that I might come across as belligerent or nitpicky. I’m trying to nail down exactly what you’re trying to test. We can’t test “sb is better than lb” because, as we both agree, there are so many situations and circumstances effecting performance that its impossible to have one answer to such a broad question.

Even if we were to ask: “Given a fairly mobile battle, with a mid-number of players (approx 5 on each side), would the shortbow outperform the longbow?” this situation would be incomplete because we can’t account for the professions with us or against us, and how cc effects might change potential damage situations for a shortbow or longbow, or how terrain could give you an advantage with either weapon.

So I’m asking that you try to be a little more specific in what you’re asking, so we all know what question to answer.

At last, someone who understands

Well, i know that me, a support built LB ranger, with no food or other buffs have won every fair fire fight in WvW jumping puzzles against stupid shortbow rangers who were fully decked out in food buffs and sharpening stones (item not skill) and thought “Oh i can out dps that long bow ranger from 1200 away!!” i’ve been in.

Can shortbow rangers win in a skirmishy open field fight where they can dance in and out of melee range? Well yes, yes they can, but that’s kind of what that bow is designed for, where the longbow is designed as the stand waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay in the back and snipe people for big damage bow.

Durzlla.6295:

Well, i know that me, a support built LB ranger, with no food or other buffs have won every fair fire fight in WvW jumping puzzles against stupid shortbow rangers who were fully decked out in food buffs and sharpening stones (item not skill) and thought “Oh i can out dps that long bow ranger from 1200 away!!” i’ve been in.

Can shortbow rangers win in a skirmishy open field fight where they can dance in and out of melee range? Well yes, yes they can, but that’s kind of what that bow is designed for, where the longbow is designed as the stand waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay in the back and snipe people for big damage bow.

And that right there was the only point I was trying to make with any of my posts in this thread. The point being that mentally, people are comparing the bows against each other as a primary weapon in combat, when at this point in the games development (I only say that because it is unknown to anybody but the devs what role the longbow was meant to have for the ranger) its actual function is a utility weapon.

That is where I think my point got lost (and I apologize, I wasn’t trying to be disagreeable, only to make the points I’m highlighting in this post); that the way the weapon functions dissents from the way people want it to function. Which stems from the idea that logically the longbow should be the greater power weapon for ranged damage than shortbow. However, logically (as in logically in perception based on the standard that every weapon has a unique and competitive role with another weapon a class has access to) while this makes sense, in actuality it doesn’t.

And THAT is how I was trying to explain why a lot of the people in the community have a dislike for the longbow.

There is hope for this community yet

I use both at once, even in PvP and i am happy

Sebrent.3625:

Yes, once I’ve closed on that Ranger, they can swap to their other weapon set … but now they only have one weapon set that is useful in the fight against me.

When comparing shortbow, it does the same direct damage as longbow, if not better. Then you factor in the times you get to a flank and it bleeds … not it is ahead. Now factor in that shortbow hits more often so can proc more. It’s ahead even more. Now take bleed-on-crit. You’ll crit more as you hit more so even more ahead of longbow. Now look at how shortbow can apply bleeding and poison as well as interrupt from 1,200 range, evade, swiftness and it’s no wonder it is superior to the very lackluster longbow.

Now factor in that the longbow skills will actually do more for you than SB when an enemy tries to close up. Now factor in that the 10 stacks of vulnerability can still boost your secondoary weapon and pet damage after switching. I don’t see why it would be a disadvantage anyway if I have to swap at one point. SB users should do the same if they want to play efficiently.

You keep saying it was designed for longrange but please aknowledge that skill 2, 3, 4(!) and even 5 really weren’t. Those are skills for all ranges and since 2 skills have rather long cast times you don’t have to autoattack at all if they close up. Just unload your other skills and swap weapon. Played like that it isn’t limited to long range at all.

Autoattack != The whole weapon

Dojo.1867:

Sebrent.3625:

Yes, once I’ve closed on that Ranger, they can swap to their other weapon set … but now they only have one weapon set that is useful in the fight against me.

When comparing shortbow, it does the same direct damage as longbow, if not better. Then you factor in the times you get to a flank and it bleeds … not it is ahead. Now factor in that shortbow hits more often so can proc more. It’s ahead even more. Now take bleed-on-crit. You’ll crit more as you hit more so even more ahead of longbow. Now look at how shortbow can apply bleeding and poison as well as interrupt from 1,200 range, evade, swiftness and it’s no wonder it is superior to the very lackluster longbow.

Now factor in that the longbow skills will actually do more for you than SB when an enemy tries to close up. Now factor in that the 10 stacks of vulnerability can still boost your secondoary weapon and pet damage after switching. I don’t see why it would be a disadvantage anyway if I have to swap at one point. SB users should do the same if they want to play efficiently.

You keep saying it was designed for longrange but please aknowledge that skill 2, 3, 4(!) and even 5 really weren’t. Those are skills for all ranges and since 2 skills have rather long cast times you don’t have to autoattack at all if they close up. Just unload your other skills and swap weapon. Played like that it isn’t limited to long range at all.

Autoattack != The whole weapon

Any weapon that I am forced to swap out of at short range within a handful of seconds clearly is not designed for close combat. The longbow is absolutely limited to long range, it has a couple of skills that you can throw out before swapping but you certainly can’t sustain close combat.

The mechanic doesn’t bother me though, I love the idea of playing a sniper rifle and would be perfectly happy to swap out for skirmishing, if only it actually did high damage at max range. To justify the enormous damage loss at < 900 I would expect it to dish out significantly higher dps than shortbow at 900+, not to be debating in the forums as to whether it is or is not marginally more effective.

So yeah, jcbroe hit the nail on the head, I expect the longbow to function as a primary damage dealer rather than a utility weapon and suspect it is not functioning as Anet intended.

Daemon.4295:

Dojo.1867:

Sebrent.3625:

Yes, once I’ve closed on that Ranger, they can swap to their other weapon set … but now they only have one weapon set that is useful in the fight against me.

When comparing shortbow, it does the same direct damage as longbow, if not better. Then you factor in the times you get to a flank and it bleeds … not it is ahead. Now factor in that shortbow hits more often so can proc more. It’s ahead even more. Now take bleed-on-crit. You’ll crit more as you hit more so even more ahead of longbow. Now look at how shortbow can apply bleeding and poison as well as interrupt from 1,200 range, evade, swiftness and it’s no wonder it is superior to the very lackluster longbow.

Now factor in that the longbow skills will actually do more for you than SB when an enemy tries to close up. Now factor in that the 10 stacks of vulnerability can still boost your secondoary weapon and pet damage after switching. I don’t see why it would be a disadvantage anyway if I have to swap at one point. SB users should do the same if they want to play efficiently.

You keep saying it was designed for longrange but please aknowledge that skill 2, 3, 4(!) and even 5 really weren’t. Those are skills for all ranges and since 2 skills have rather long cast times you don’t have to autoattack at all if they close up. Just unload your other skills and swap weapon. Played like that it isn’t limited to long range at all.

Autoattack != The whole weapon

Any weapon that I am forced to swap out of at short range within a handful of seconds clearly is not designed for close combat. The longbow is absolutely limited to long range, it has a couple of skills that you can throw out before swapping but you certainly can’t sustain close combat.

The mechanic doesn’t bother me though, I love the idea of playing a sniper rifle and would be perfectly happy to swap out for skirmishing, if only it actually did high damage at max range. To justify the enormous damage loss at < 900 I would expect it to dish out significantly higher dps than shortbow at 900+, not to be debating in the forums as to whether it is or is not marginally more effective.

So yeah, jcbroe hit the nail on the head, I expect the longbow to function as a primary damage dealer rather than a utility weapon and suspect it is not functioning as Anet intended.

Again. You are not more forced to swap out than you are with SB imo. Close combat damage is about the same as long you don’t autoattack which the skillset easy allows to do. And yes it is worse than actually swapping to the melee weapon (naturally) but that also acounts for SB.

Please acknowledge that while longbow’s rapid fire shows you a big number at the end of all of its hits, that it took you a 5 sec channel to do that damage. Yeah, the number is big, but it’s after a 5 second channel. It is extremely lackluster.

Please acknowledge that while longbow’s #5 is a nice AOE that also cripples, a foe can easy dodge roll out of it. Additionally, you have to stand still to channel it, making yourself a sitting target.

Please acknowledge that while longbow hits harder per hit, the shortbow hits more often.

• The higher hit rate of the short bow makes it better direct damage at short/medium range than Longbow … and equivalent (at worst) at long range
• The higher hit rate of the short bow makes it better for on-crit and on-hit affects (bleed, pet might, sigils)
• If someone is not facing you (trying to escape or fighting one of your allies), shortbow easily outdamages longbow via the additional bleeds … even if you have +0 condition damage

Rundown:

• Longbow #1 sucks … Shortbow #1 is great
• Longbow #2 sucks … Shortbow #2 fine (up to 10 seconds of poison)
• Longbow #3 is fine (vulnerability) … Shortbow #3 is fine (free evade & swiftness)
• Longbow #4 is fine (short range KB) … Shortbow #4 is fine (cripple & poison)
• Longbow #5 is fine (AOE dmg & cripple) … Shortbow #5 is fine (daze/stun)

So shortbow has all 5 skills that are fine while Longbow’s #3, #4, and #5 are really the only skills that are fine. I’d prefer to have 100% useful than 60%.

Dojo.1867:

Again. You are not more forced to swap out than you are with SB imo. Close combat damage is about the same as long you don’t autoattack which the skillset easy allows to do. And yes it is worse than actually swapping to the melee weapon (naturally) but that also acounts for SB.

It may be a question of play-style but I disagree, SB is a solid weapon up close for me and is in fact IMO at its best just outside of melee range, where circle strafing is easiest. If you had to swap out shortbow at close range the way you do with longbow, you wouldn’t see so many people running double bows. Remember, it’s relatively easy for a ranger to stay out of melee range but impossible to remain at 1200+ once you get targeted.

Sebrent.3625:

Rundown:

• Longbow #1 sucks … Shortbow #1 is great
• Longbow #2 sucks … Shortbow #2 fine (up to 10 seconds of poison)
• Longbow #3 is fine (vulnerability) … Shortbow #3 is fine (free evade & swiftness)
• Longbow #4 is fine (short range KB) … Shortbow #4 is fine (cripple & poison)
• Longbow #5 is fine (AOE dmg & cripple) … Shortbow #5 is fine (daze/stun)

So shortbow has all 5 skills that are fine while Longbow’s #3, #4, and #5 are really the only skills that are fine. I’d prefer to have 100% useful than 60%.

I’m glad, you are not part of the balance team… Such a sloppy way of doing things.

Lol. I’ll make some slides to better explain it next time ;-)

I figured bullets were easy for even the most “challenged” players to read.

The explanations are above. I’m not comparing the #1, #2, #3, #4, #5 of each bow to each other, just ran through them in the end.

naphack.9346:

Sebrent.3625:

Rundown:

• Longbow #1 sucks … Shortbow #1 is great
• Longbow #2 sucks … Shortbow #2 fine (up to 10 seconds of poison)
• Longbow #3 is fine (vulnerability) … Shortbow #3 is fine (free evade & swiftness)
• Longbow #4 is fine (short range KB) … Shortbow #4 is fine (cripple & poison)
• Longbow #5 is fine (AOE dmg & cripple) … Shortbow #5 is fine (daze/stun)

So shortbow has all 5 skills that are fine while Longbow’s #3, #4, and #5 are really the only skills that are fine. I’d prefer to have 100% useful than 60%.

I’m glad, you are not part of the balance team… Such a sloppy way of doing things.

Yeah it seems a bit exaggerated, I wouldn’t say any of the longbow skills actually suck, the problem is just that its so easy to avoid the bulk of its damage. The quickness nerf made the situation much worse, barrage is effectively 25% weaker now than it was prior to the patch. Which begs the question, did Anet actually think the ranger longbow was overpowered, or did they not take the time to compensate for the quickness nerf?

Well, the problem is, his categorization is off.
I’d put it more like that:

LB#1: Does what it’s designed for but it’s admittedly bad even at that.
The main application of the skill is as a gap filler in between the “big” skills, when the combat range at the moment does not allow weapon swaps. That’s probably also what the devs had in mind.
LB#2: Slightly lackluster, as is every skill which deals raw damage only.
It’s pretty much our bread and butter skill to deal bursts of damage. It’s not overwhelming but considering the range, the damage is quite good.
LB#3: A solid skill. Basically a projectile based on my mark with short cd. Call out a target, vuln it and watch your team rip it to shreds.
LB#4: Amazing. I don’t see, how you shrug it off as being “fine” aka at the same level as shortbow 4 or 5.
LB#5: Another great skill. It has a wide range of applications, which is balanced by the windup time. Not much to add.

Um guys…. If you use anything other than Barrage, 3, or auto attack at long range (1000-1500) you’re going to be doing worse DPS than you could.

At long range you may not even want to use barrage, you may only wanna use #3 and #1, now I would post all my test results…. But I was an idiot and posted them directly into what ever thread I commented on like 3 months ago….

But trust me, LB #1 is REALLY good at long range and will outshine SB#1 without fail (assuming you’re using berserker gear and aren’t going for procs).