Skirmishing Change
Been playing ranger a lot lately and trying to make a condition build, while also looking at interactions with other abilities like traps.
Spike trap is one of those abilities like Entangle that would would perfect in a condition build. However, it isnt possible to take both Trapper’s Expertise and Sharpened Edges (and lets face it, sinister and rampager both have a lot of crit).
Also Hidden Barbs which is near essential for a condition (or at least bleed) build is on the same line as Spotter.
What I’m asking is for Tail Wind (become a major trait), and Sharpened Edges (become the first minor trait like Barbed Precision for Necromancers) to switch places. Also for Ferocious Grip (become a major trait) and Spotter (become a minor trait, its always taken anyway regardless of condition or power build) switch places. It would give the same playstyle if a player chose the weapon swap traits but make the line more condition damage centered.
So an example build would be:
Sharpened Edges
Trapper’s Expertise
Spotter
Hidden Barbs
Hunter’s Tactics
Light on Your Feet
First change is okay.
Hidden Barbs should compete with spotter. Why would you even need spotter in the first place if you are gearing condi and prec
I only put that there really b/c it seems almost a requirement for group play. It isnt for the condition spec itself really. What you’re pointing out is true, with proper gear you would have over 50 percent crit chance anyway.
I only put that there really b/c it seems almost a requirement for group play. It isnt for the condition spec itself really. What you’re pointing out is true, with proper gear you would have over 50 percent crit chance anyway.
Yeap, although the first change is very much I agree with. Sometimes I wanna go trapper but lack bleed pressure If I do not take SB.
Spike Trap is meh for me, 36 second cd for something that can be negated easily since it does not pulse.
Most of the traps could use a buff in general. This was in another thread I was reading the other day. I personally just get tired of running Survival skills all the time and think shortbow/condition/trapper would be a good change of pace.
Spotter is one of those things I like and hate. I like what it does, and how it brings something to a group comp. but hate how it doesnt feel like a choice. Especially when youre losing out on a bleed trait lowering your damage to take it.
I am probably going to be the minority on Skirmishing, as I believe it is one of the few traitlines across every profession that presents difficult but meaningful choices in traits.
I can’t agree with these Skirmishing changes as it allows the “you can have your cake and eat it” scenario to the point it presents additional power creeps.
As of now, the traits in each of their respective tiers can be selected to create a thematic synergy, while presenting a sacrifice and compromise in order to be meaningful.
Lastly, every group utility trait that applies bonuses to nearby allies is a master tier trait on every profession; Spotter will not be an exception.
Will update once Path of Fire releases.
Similar effects to Sharpened Edges for other professions. All of which are minor traits.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sharper_Images
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sharpshooter
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precise_Strikes
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Barbed_Precision
Just because a group utility ability is a master trait doesnt mean it has to be a major one.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Rites
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Mist
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elemental_Attunement
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Prism
Did you not see the relation of all the major tier bonuses in the professions? +Precision (Spotter), +Toughness (Strength in Numbers), +Strength (Empower Allies), +Ferocity (Assassin’s Presence), +Life Leech (Vampiric Presence).
You can try to make your case, but it won’t work with Anet. Also, take a look at all of those minor traits on other professions that have bleed on critical chance. This is one thing I (and others) stress all the time when suggesting things like you do: Be very careful what you wish for.
Every one of those traits except Sharper Images has a 33% chance on critical to inflict bleeding. Illusions are temporary and rely on the player’s precision to begin with, which separates their trait vs other professions due to up-time.
If you are making a case for Sharpened Edges to be a minor, be prepared for it to take a hit. As for Spotter, it will stay as is unless the other professions have theirs moved as minors, too. And you know other people will make their case for their professions if Ranger gets Spotter moved as a minor. #IncomingPowerCreeps
Will update once Path of Fire releases.
(edited by Wondrouswall.7169)
Been playing ranger a lot lately and trying to make a condition build, while also looking at interactions with other abilities like traps.
Spike trap is one of those abilities like Entangle that would would perfect in a condition build. However, it isnt possible to take both Trapper’s Expertise and Sharpened Edges (and lets face it, sinister and rampager both have a lot of crit).
Also Hidden Barbs which is near essential for a condition (or at least bleed) build is on the same line as Spotter.
What I’m asking is for Tail Wind (become a major trait), and Sharpened Edges (become the first minor trait like Barbed Precision for Necromancers) to switch places. Also for Ferocious Grip (become a major trait) and Spotter (become a minor trait, its always taken anyway regardless of condition or power build) switch places. It would give the same playstyle if a player chose the weapon swap traits but make the line more condition damage centered.
So an example build would be:
Sharpened Edges
Trapper’s Expertise
Spotter
Hidden Barbs
Hunter’s Tactics
Light on Your Feet
Terrible changes, remember skirmishing is also a power line and moving furious grip would screw over so many power builds. And since skirmishing is a line based on critical hits moving furious grip would also screw over builds that choose to slot in sharpen edges and also any builds that wants to use it with remorseless.
If anything merge hidden barbs with sharpened edges and make it a adept trait. Barbed precision makes sense for necromancers because they have target the weak which turns precision in to condi dmg and rangers have no such trait, yes rangers can apply bleeds with critical hits but for a power build sharpened edges makes 0 sense as a minor. Further nether furious grip nor tail wind are powerful enough to be major traits and spotter is to powerful to be a minor trait. When making thees changes you only thought of the builds you use but not the other builds that are currently good with the way skirmishing is.
A compromise would be to merge furious grip and tail wind in to a adept minor trait and make sharpened edges a minor master trait. Power builds would still have a useless minor trait but they would not loose anything like they would with your suggestions, and move hidden barbs from the master to the adept slot (in place of sharpen edges) so that it no longer shares a spot with spotter. This way you only have to choose between the trap trait and barbs, not ideal but no builds should have everything.
Similar effects to Sharpened Edges for other professions. All of which are minor traits.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sharper_Images
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sharpshooter
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precise_Strikes
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Barbed_PrecisionJust because a group utility ability is a master trait doesnt mean it has to be a major one.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Rites
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soothing_Mist
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elemental_Attunement
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Prism
every one of those minor traits that cause bleeding on crit have synergy with other minor traits from the same line (apart from mesmer), rangers do not so it makes more sense for it not to be a minor trait.
Other than elemental attunement all of those traits have always been minors, and every other class trait that boosts a stat by 150 is a master trait. It will never happen unless they reduce it to 50 precision.
I am probably going to be the minority on Skirmishing, as I believe it is one of the few traitlines across every profession that presents difficult but meaningful choices in traits.
I can’t agree with these Skirmishing changes as it allows the “you can have your cake and eat it” scenario to the point it presents additional power creeps.
As of now, the traits in each of their respective tiers can be selected to create a thematic synergy, while presenting a sacrifice and compromise in order to be meaningful.
pretty much what he says, skirmishing is good as it is now, also most of the changes in this thread are about pve i guess but keep pvp in mind. Also taking light on your feet over quick draw is not a good choice, especially in pvp.
This is my vision of the Skirmishing traitline: thoughts?
Minors :
(Adept)Tail wind – Gain swiftness, for you and your pet, when swapping weapons in combat(9 sec drutation, 9 cd)
( mater)Furious Grip – Gain fury, for you and your pet, when swapping weapons in combat(7 sec drutation(up from 5 sec), 9 cd)
(GM)Quick Draw – When swapping weapons, the next ranger weapon skill and your pet use, will recharge faster.
Major adepts:
Primal Reflexes - When you successfully evade an attack, gain vigor.(stays the same)
Trapper’s Expertise- Boons and conditions caused by traps last longer. Traps recharge faster and all traps cause cripple (the cripple duration is affected by this trait).
Hunter’s Tactics- Increased chance to critically strike while attacking from behind or the side(10%,same as now).
Major Masters:
Spotter -Increases precision of nearby allies (stays the same).
Strider’s Defense-increase the duration of evade, in all abilities that have evade attached to them, increase by 0.25s. Sword skills recharge faster (this includes dodges, weapon evades, utilities, etc..).
Light on your Feet – Damage and condition duration is increased for a while on evade,(5%,5% – stack intensity up 10 times, 4sec duration) . Short bow skills recharge faster and your arrows pierce.
Major GM
new skill(1) – you deal 10% more damage while moving, you deal 10% more damage while attacking from behind or the side.
new skill (2) – Sharpened Edges+Hidden Barbs(the 2 traits combined, same effects)
new skill (3) – reduce the CD on weapon swap recharge time and all “on swap weapon” effects by- 3 sec(down to 6sec, this includes sigils,runes,traits etc..)
@LughLongArm
the buff to quick draw seams unnecessary and idk about new skill (3) as it seams more warrior than ranger and strider’s defense is fine as is now (if anything just add a cripple on crit with a cd to what it does now, no need for weird evade mechanics), but other than that i like it.
Both power and condi builds can work without gimping each other due to weird trait positions, and i like the new skill (1) as ranger in general needs better damage modifiers.
Not really down with those changes either, Lugh. Again, I must be in the minority on this one. I said it earlier and I’ll say it again: be careful what you ask for.
Dropping Quick Draw as a minor trait would most likely result in a reduction. Remember that during the September Elite Specialization patch, they stated they were going to keep a close eye on the version we have now.
Allowing it to be a free trait for slotting Skirmishing will only result in a reduction down to 20% or 33% cooldown after swapping. Including the pet would be nice, but we should know by now it won’t go unnoticed. (ie: chained smoke assault or spike barrage for more people to create an outcry for more pet nerfs.)
I would opt to keep Trapper’s Expertise’s added cripple to not be affected by the trait’s condition duration. 3s is fine and it can already be increased through condition duration or expertise already. Even with all the -% movement-impending condition traits on other professions and food, it’s still fine as is.
Light on Your Feet change has issues in terms of effectiveness. Evading through multiple AOEs and attacks can add 50% damage and condition duration, which is insane, even if it is 4s. In scenarios with very few attacks, it will scale poorly.
New skill (1) is like an extension of Hunter’s Tactics while also being like the old Hunter’s Tactics back when it provided a damage boost and not critical chance. I’m not too fond of traits like this nowadays.
New skill (3) is just a no-no for me. It’s like Fast Hands, but now it affects external augments such as sigils and runes. Sorry, man, but NO trait should ever be able to affect external means, let alone so many things as an all-in-one trait.
There are some choices to be made, but overall, it’s kind of another “have your cake and eat it too” layout. It’s just able to have more build types grab all they need compared to the OPs where its just for conditions/trap build.
Will update once Path of Fire releases.
Eh, just swap Hunter’s Tactics with Spotter. This leaves the Bleed traits as choices against other focused builds and puts the general improvement to the Ranger overall.
Besides the above, the issue you are running with is one utility (Spike Trap) could use Trapper’s Expertise trait and that conflicts with more bleed output. That’s a fair tradeoff versus Sharpened Edges.
@Wondrouswall.7169
I wouldnt be fixed 2 much on the numbers as they’r should be tested for balance, and you might be right regarding the on swap sigils. I want the bonus for sb to be insane if you can actually get 10 evedes in 4 sec(which does happend for time to time) but 10 stacks might be 2 high and can be capped at 5 or 8 or somthing solid enugh.
The way i see it, both Skirmishing and MM are being inferior to both NM and BM give utility defence and offence capabilities. nowdays picking Skirmishing in NM will probably even wont boost your damage that much(a ranger tested it on dps golem and posted on forum) so i do think imporvemnts are needed.
Also i tried ti make the traits consistent to themes of the trait line(minor are about the weapon swap), emphsise the evade mechanic, critical strike, movment and flanking. I think the combination of both flanking and movment is what that makes new skill(1) more interesting than most of the damage booster traits, it reqiers alot of active play.
new skill(3) is supposed to be abit like fast hands but infirour in some aspects and better in others, when i think about it, it should be 7sec and not 6sec and effect the minor traits. Its also tapping into synergie with druid CA and the staff trait which also benefit from swap. Regarding cripple not being effected by the trait, fine, but HS should trigger the cripple the same as DH heal trap triiger the daze.
(edited by LughLongArm.5460)
That’s all fine and well going for thematic consistency within a traitline, but why not extend beyond that and create more synergy with other traits in other traitlines? Improving the core themes of some traits we already have now either through minor changes through application or synergy with other traits seems like it would be the better approach.
I have been mostly dissenting on the ideas here but that’s only due to my personal opinion that Skirmishing is close to perfect as a traitline. I’d only make 5 changes to the traits here:
- Hunter’s Tactics applies to the pet when it strikes a foe from the side or behind.
- Light on Your Feet also activates with evasions. Condition duration changed to condition damage.
- Healing Spring applies Vigor (3s) to allies when triggered when traited with Trapper’s Expertise. Vigor duration is not affected by the trait duration bonus.
- Most Dangerous Game moved down to Master tier and changed to gain 1 stack of Might (5s) every second the player is under the effects of Vigor.
- Strider’s Defense moved to Grandmaster tier. 10% damage when wielding a sword added. Projectile Destruction changed to: “When you apply Vigor to yourself, your next attack activates Strider’s Defense (2s). Strider’s Defense makes all weapon attacks destroy projectiles. Does not stack in duration or intensity, reapplication refreshes duration to 2s.”
There would be more synergy with other traits within the traitline, but also other traitlines. Then, there’s a thematic aspect of Strider’s Defense being able work with every weapon while giving it a competitive damage bonus for choosing a sword.
The choices between Quick Draw, a universal 10% damage and condition damage boost for evading from Light on Your Feet, and a more melee-oriented style of play would be more competitive and build defining.
Not to mention projectile destruction will be on-demand and not just limited to sword, or melee attacks. Shooting other projectiles out of the air with your arrows; that’s totally Ranger (and skirmishing).
Will update once Path of Fire releases.
(edited by Wondrouswall.7169)
That’s all fine and well going for thematic consistency within a traitline, but why not extend beyond that and create more synergy with other traits in other traitlines? Improving the core themes of some traits we already have now either through minor changes through application or synergy with other traits seems like it would be the better approach.
I have been mostly dissenting on the ideas here but that’s only due to my personal opinion that Skirmishing is close to perfect as a traitline. I’d only make 5 changes to the traits here:
- Hunter’s Tactics applies to the pet when it strikes a foe from the side or behind.
- Light on Your Feet also activates with evasions. Condition duration changed to condition damage.
- Healing Spring applies Vigor (3s) to allies when triggered when traited with Trapper’s Expertise. Vigor duration is not affected by the trait duration bonus.
- Most Dangerous Game moved down to Master tier and changed to gain 1 stack of Might (5s) every second the player is under the effects of Vigor.
- Strider’s Defense moved to Grandmaster tier. 10% damage when wielding a sword added. Projectile Destruction changed to: “When you apply Vigor to yourself, your next attack activates Strider’s Defense (2s). Strider’s Defense makes all weapon attacks destroy projectiles. Does not stack in duration or intensity, reapplication refreshes duration to 2s.”
There would be more synergy with other traits within the traitline, but also other traitlines. Then, there’s a thematic aspect of Strider’s Defense being able work with every weapon while giving it a competitive damage bonus for choosing a sword.
The choices between Quick Draw, a universal 10% damage and condition damage boost for evading from Light on Your Feet, and a more melee-oriented style of play would be more competitive and build defining.
Not to mention projectile destruction will be on-demand and not just limited to sword, or melee attacks. Shooting other projectiles out of the air with your arrows; that’s totally Ranger (and skirmishing).
Where do you actually get the vigor now?
Where do you actually get the vigor now?
Sun Spirit with Nature’s Vengeance, Primal Reflexes, Lightning Reflexes, and Vigorous Training. To an extent, the PvP version of Sigil of Energy.
If you want to count one of the above suggestions, then include Healing Spring with Trapper’s Expertise when triggered. Or did that question mean something else?
Will update once Path of Fire releases.
(edited by Wondrouswall.7169)
Where do you actually get the vigor now?
Sun Spirit with Nature’s Vengeance, Primal Reflexes, Lightning Reflexes, and Vigorous Training. To an extent, the PvP version of Sigil of Energy.
If you want to count one of the above suggestions, then include Healing Spring with Trapper’s Expertise when triggered. Or did that question mean something else?
Yeap it was something else.
For starters, you are very creative dude. Thank you for helping the ranger community a lot.
Only reason why I do not like another conditional trait (vigor) is prolly nature magic will be required or be a number 1 pick again if that was to happen. Vigorous Training, Nature’s vengeance, boon duration are all there. Just because NM is a very solid traitline. and let’s not forget Fortifying bond is there too.
So you get that easy might stacked pet with just primal reflexes. 8 seconds base + Boon duration, easy 10-12 stacks of might on pet. Perfect Synergy with the new MDG
Not to mention, Vigorous training 10 sec base. more might for pet. This is even without HaO.
I just think that the suggestion you have, will just promote another traitline to be there with Skirmishing.
But man, your ideas are really good though.
PS: This was a ninja fix but sigil of energy does not grant vigor anymore, instead it restores 25 endurance.
(edited by StickerHappy.8052)
Yeah, I understand where you are getting at. I knew that those suggestions would build stronger synergy with Nature Magic; it was to allow an additional purpose/combo with Vigorous Training and Sun Spirit traited with Nature’s Vengeance in mind.
Vigorous Training is one of those middle-of-the-road traits at the moment. Generally, it is chosen because a build does not have anything better. Obvious points also since pets can’t use vigor. If you don’t use warhorn or even Clarion Bond, then Windborne Notes is not an option.
On the other hand, Evasive Purity is pretty good when you don’t have warhorn but want extra cleanses. Then there’s other situations and modes where neither Windborne Notes or Evasive Purity are not needed or can’t be used, so then Vigorous Training is taken because there wasn’t really anything else, but it’s decent group support.
It does promote using Skirmishing with another traitline due to the stronger synergy between trait interactions. In the small scope of things, it can be bad to improve just Skirmishing, that I agree.
In a much larger scheme of also improving other traitlines, such as Marksmanship, to have stronger synergy with other traits & traitlines; it can pay off in spades. We just gotta have a strong synergy and competition among all traitlines and things can really get interesting.
Will update once Path of Fire releases.
Yeah, I understand where you are getting at. I knew that those suggestions would build stronger synergy with Nature Magic; it was to allow an additional purpose/combo with Vigorous Training and Sun Spirit traited with Nature’s Vengeance in mind.
Vigorous Training is one of those middle-of-the-road traits at the moment. Generally, it is chosen because a build does not have anything better. Obvious points also since pets can’t use vigor. If you don’t use warhorn or even Clarion Bond, then Windborne Notes is not an option.
On the other hand, Evasive Purity is pretty good when you don’t have warhorn but want extra cleanses. Then there’s other situations and modes where neither Windborne Notes or Evasive Purity are not needed or can’t be used, so then Vigorous Training is taken because there wasn’t really anything else, but it’s decent group support.
It does promote using Skirmishing with another traitline due to the stronger synergy between trait interactions. In the small scope of things, it can be bad to improve just Skirmishing, that I agree.
In a much larger scheme of also improving other traitlines, such as Marksmanship, to have stronger synergy with other traits & traitlines; it can pay off in spades. We just gotta have a strong synergy and competition among all traitlines and things can really get interesting.
Completely agree.
Atleast with your changes, we might see SS/NM/X builds. It’s like breaking apart from the NM/BM/Druid meta.
2 choices is still good.
Dude please please A BIG THREAD with all changes you propose, not just QoL ones. I am super curious to see your ideas on improving stale traits like Predator’s Instict, Invigorating bond, etc.
And please do Staff too, it’s too focused into healing, even an addition of a condition, even Vulnerability is good. It’s too plain imo.
@Wondrouswall
i like your ideas as it leaves skirmishing open to more than just condi builds and you do not empower traits for no reason.
Also at this moment skirmishing has a synergy with ws because it can provide vigor reliably and often (primal reflex) and vigor stacks with natural vigor for a 70% endurance regen (i know nature magic has this synergy too, but skirmishing applies vigor more often so it is more resilient to boon removal). So not like the line lacks any synergy now like ppl make it out, but more of it would definitely make it see more play.
- Sharpening merge with Hidden Bard. You must choose to go dps with Hidden Bar or support with spotter. No idea for new trait replace Sharpening
- Vigor Training: Gain edurance when sucessful dodge an attack. If you good at evading, you should get the reward right ?. I remember rev have minor trait that gain edurance when hit foe ?
- Strider Defence: 25% chance to reflect back project when in melee combat. Sword do 10% more dam. A bit lazy master trait.
- LoYF: Reduce 15% dam and condi dam or duration while moving, shortbow percing and cd reduce. Another lazy GM trait but fits with the name LoYF. And other non-shortbow builds can use it.
- MDG: How about add 1-2s quickness and 3s 3 stack might when under 50% HP, cd 5s.
I think Anet like simple, easy to use, more passively trait so they’ll igore the complicated ideas.
BUMP
I just find it crazy that all dh traps give boons ON TOP of their effects. And let’s not forget they get a stun breaker on a trap too, making a full trap bar feasible.
Can we get boons on our traps too when traited and atleast 1 stun breaker trap? This would be completely balanced because we are just streamlining them with DH
Fire trap = 2 might
Viper Nest = Vigor
Frost = Protection
Spike = Fury
Frost = Stun Breaker
BUMP
I just find it crazy that all dh traps give boons ON TOP of their effects. And let’s not forget they get a stun breaker on a trap too, making a full trap bar feasible.
Can we get boons on our traps too when traited and atleast 1 stun breaker trap? This would be completely balanced because we are just streamlining them with DH
Fire trap = 2 might
Viper Nest = Vigor
Frost = Protection
Spike = FuryFrost = Stun Breaker
While I agree, it may be that Anet thinks that we’re already covered in that aspect, not through our traps but through our spirits (which are, to some extent, traps as well).
You might as well start a new topic in regards to traps. Personally, I’d only opt for a few things:
- The 2 DH traps that are instant have a ½s cast time like the rest of the traps found across all professions.
- Stun Break DH trap comes with 1s of Stability on cast like other stun breakers with a cast time.
- Frost Trap is removed from the game and replaced with another GW1 trap. Either Dust Trap (inflicts 2 bleeding and blind per pulse for 3 pulses) or Barbed Trap (2 torment on each pulse for 3 pulses).
But yeah, start a new thread on traps though. Worth discussing a bit further.
Will update once Path of Fire releases.
You might as well start a new topic in regards to traps. Personally, I’d only opt for a few things:
- The 2 DH traps that are instant have a ½s cast time like the rest of the traps found across all professions.
- Stun Break DH trap comes with 1s of Stability on cast like other stun breakers with a cast time.
- Frost Trap is removed from the game and replaced with another GW1 trap. Either Dust Trap (inflicts 2 bleeding and blind per pulse for 3 pulses) or Barbed Trap (2 torment on each pulse for 3 pulses).
But yeah, start a new thread on traps though. Worth discussing a bit further.
okay. will do. sometime soon.
I am probably going to be the minority on Skirmishing, as I believe it is one of the few traitlines across every profession that presents difficult but meaningful choices in traits.
i agree, i really love the skirmishing line in general. been playing SB and traps lately, and while it’s not the most viable, it’s so close. as mentioned, other traps need secondary effects, like spike trap.
i actually feel the core ranger is fantastic on paper, and just a few weapons need more buffs. it’s the other elites that are out of line so the core ranger isnt really competitive.