Guild Wars 2

I just saw a fascinating post and it inspired me to write this. I know we have a lot of wvw’ers on this forum so you’ll want to read this.

Source:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Stomping-PPT

OP estimates that up to 30% of the point total will come from sources besides point per tick (ppt) for this match. So, going forward, with a full week of new wvw, you might say that over 50% of the points will come from stomps.

What does this mean? Clearly, zerging is gone*. It’s busted. Zergs kill without stomps. Without stomps you lose. That means 20 man groups will still roam and cap for tick but they will have to spread out and fight for stomps in the open field battles (if they care about winning the match at least).

That change, plus the points in the middle, will tun wvw into large scale spvp. This will be amazing for rangers and engis.

Thoughts?

*I mean zerging as it currently stands which is to hammer train and then drop it all trying to blow up the enemy. DPSing down was always easiest thing to do. Now that technique is wasteful and a meta shift is required.

How will this be amazing for Rangers? I play mostly on the weekends so I haven’t been able to WvW since the patch, but I seldom even have the opportunity to stomp. Engaging from 1500 range, they usually are stomped by someone else by the time I close the distance.
edited for grammar/spelling

You’ll need to expand on why you think Rangers will somehow handle this better than they currently handle zergs? When you start dealing with smaller groups you overlap with the current GvG meta which the Ranger also doesn’t do well in.

The problem with this class revolves heavily on its lack of group utility, lack of true burst, lack of true AE, and single target condition spam. These are the things that matter in smaller scale combat.

Here’s how typical GvG is played out in general:

There are classes with mild AE damage (usually DOTs) that apply pressure over a group of people. This in addition to the random AE damage from the melee train and other variables eventually pushes someone into the critical zone where they’re focused down. The burst classes are then called out to burst the target down or apply enough pressure to force the opposing team to use their important cooldowns. Typically it’s the ranged classes that are asked to burst, but since closing on a target is so easy in this game, melee can do it too. There’s obviously much more involved, but this is the general jist of it. Sustained damage over the whole group until burst can be used to throw them off balance.

Now we look at the Ranger class.

It’s not a tank like a Warrior and doesn’t provide much in the way of hard CC (knockbacks, stuns, dazes, etc). So it isn’t vital to the ‘train’ and will be peeled off much quicker than say a 30k hp warrior or a guardian with tons of passive healing and invulns/stability.

It doesn’t have much burst so it isn’t vital when pushing a target. While Maul is cute, it’s not even remotely close to the level of burst an Ele, Thief, or Warrior is capable of. And worse is the class doesn’t handle the melee train well so it needs ranged burst imo.

It has strong sustained damage, but it’s single target as opposed to AE so it really doesn’t help with the sustained damage either. Necros and Engineers provide a ton of sustained damage because they can keep conditions on large numbers of people and have a ton of AE attacks. Rangers have melee cleaves, but no health to back it or they have piercing shot, which is very gimmicky.

This is why people complain about the class. The Ranger can actually perform when small numbers of people are fighting over a small circle on the ground or when ganking in mostly 1v1 scenarios. But in organized combat in 10-20man groups? It doesn’t have a role to fill. It can ‘hide’ in a zerg because no one does anything but spam auto attack all day. But outside of roaming this class doesn’t do much of anything.

You disagree with the premise that this makes wvw more like spvp. I’d say rangers are relatively decent in spvp (still very efficient with spirits) so, if that’s true, and if it’s true that wvw’s new rules strongly discourage mindless zerging, then the logical conclusion is rangers have a place.

Look, you point out the weaknesses of rangers without mentioning strengths. I get that. I’ve been here a long time. I read them all. We are all familiar with ranger weaknesses.

Why do you think train v train and zerging is still going to be the dominant meta? I feel like that meta has been designed out of the game. You mention “gvg” a lot, which I call “train v train” in a sort of disparaging way. Do you feel gvg playstyle will be dominant moving forward given that vastly more points can be made by holding points so you’re small squads are buffed enough to rack up stomps?

I could be wrong I really don’t know. It’s all hypothesizing until we see it play out. Which is why this discussion is fun.

You might be right.

Rangers in GvG scenarios is a separate debate… many drivers still have no place for rangers in a 15v15, 20v20 etc and bloodlust doesn’t change that. I’ve seen what a truly skilled and well oiled 20 man can do against opponents even 2-3x their size. It’s nothing to scoff at… Debating ranger’s place on those teams aside, here’s how I feel about Bloodlust.

Extra points awarded for stomps may or may not discourage the zerg. I am interested to see how it plays out, but from the other side of the coin, if your team is giving your enemy potentially 50% of their total score to stomping then safety in numbers becomes even more crucial. My guild has won some pretty incredible fights against T2 zergs, but it’s been 30v50 or 40v70 max type scenarios. When we square off against their real megazergs we are lucky to down 15-20 people before the tide washes over and there is really nothing you can do about it. If you run as a megazerg against a smaller opponent, you give up maybe, MAYBE, 20 points in stomps in an encounter, but wipe the opponent in order to get 40-50 points. That’s a lot safer point production than splitting up and risking encountering a 20 man skill team that can lay waste to your 3 or 4 30 man groups wandering the map separately.

In numbers, you risk giving away less points while still being rewarded for your roflstomping – provided you can train your forces to hold back the AoE on downed and speed stomp instead. As the larger force, separating into smaller groups gives your opponent more opportunity to generate points and level the playing field with player vs player skill. That’s not an advantage one would give away willingly.

Let’s do the math: if you hold bloodlust on full that’s 3 points per stomp. If your server gets 70 stomps, then that’s any many points as an entire tick.

Source: linked thread

I havent looked at all the maths people have done, but even if its better points to use 20-25 man groups and stomp instead od super zerging, it wont stop anyone doing it.

People zerg because its easy, free loot, free XP and makes them feel good. They dont think through the exact pros and cons of it.

People are only out at BL to see the map cuz it’s new.

Good luck getting stomps to win a match later on when the novelty wears off and when people realize how futile it is to keep that buff up.

I’ve stopped going to BL after the first night because it’s just a spvp map with even more broken classes. e.g. regen/blunt warriors and perplexity thieves/engies.

Numbers/coverage > everything. Always has, always will be until you get rid of AOE cap and pvd.

Chopps.5047:

Let’s do the math: if you hold bloodlust on full that’s 3 points per stomp. If your server gets 70 stomps, then that’s any many points as an entire tick.

Source: linked thread

To me that still means that anyone who isn’t use to 20v20 type fighting is going to be a hell of a lot better off staying in their zerg because the second they step out of the sea they are going to get crushed and cost their team 3 points. Also, it still seems to favor the higher population servers. If you have 20 extra people to go park at bloodlust while still fielding the superior force running as one zerg on the map I don’t see why high pop servers wouldn’t do that. There is no advantage to splintering down into small 20 man groups and presenting an easier target.

Dedicate a sizable group to Bloodlust points to lock it down, then run in a mindless zerg to collect the fruits of it’s labor, that’s really all I see happening from the larger servers.

In the bottom 12 in NA maybe it’ll be different because their populations are so different from the top 7 or 8, but higher up the ladder I just don’t believe it’s going to give an underdog any more of a chance than we already have.

Having said that, I do see this as a clear way to counter night capping… servers like SoS and CD who have the NA presence of a server that is lower down the chain than them, but the OCE/SEA presence to tick at 400+ every night when there are less than 20 people from the opposing server to do anything about it will find that their points are possibly worth less because there is no one to stomp during those hours. Those matches could see a more level playing field as a result.

I used to zerg HEAVILY on JQ and I recall getting off few stomps in zerg combat. You present a reasonable and well thought out case, though, Khayoss. I really hope it works out the other way though because I’d love to see zergs broken up and more reasonably sized combat happen. I feel like these changes empower the individual or small teams more than large guilds with household name commanders. WvW shouldn’t be a cult of personalities, ya know? Definitely exciting times to play wvw!

It will empower the smaller teams short term, but it will play out just like Khayoss said long term.

It will probably even be worse in some regards, where a desperate tower defense actually costs you more points holding it then just jumping out the back and leaving it.

Don’t get me wrong, I HOPE it empowers the smaller teams. I love running in a 20ish man group and facing 30-40 people. I also love running in 10 man groups and being chased by the hoard all over the map trying to keep em guessing. It’s fun and regardless of points that’s how we will continue to roll. I just can’t see it turning out any other way when I look down the line though, as sad as that is.

If Bloodlust was a result of the Outnumbered buff, and Outnumbered was calculated based on current area as opposed to zone (kind of like orange swords)… we could be having a very different conversation. THAT would empower the little guy.

On one hand I like tying it to outnumbered, but on the other hand that can lead to all kinds of negative community things.

“Get out of the BL noobs, your ruining our buff!” stuff like that. WvW needs to be inclusive or it’s just going to be the same half dozen guilds circling the waters until they get bored then there’s nothing left.

kitten ed if you do, kitten ed if you don’t kind of thing.

Maybe make the outmanned buff mean you don’t give up points via stomps? I dunno. We’ll see how the next few weeks play out.

not sure what to say about stomping and ppt, but the addition of new terrain in BL’s has buffed my LB ranger hugely. we can now use pillars for cover, canals for escape, high ground to rain death from 1500. i no longer have to beat my head against the wall to think of how to make my LB ranger viable