Suggestion: Druid Skill - Sacrifice

Suggestion: Druid Skill - Sacrifice

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Posted by: ArchieD.6972

ArchieD.6972

I know a lot of people don’t like the pet mechanic with the Ranger. To be honest, I’ve always loved the Archer archetype but hated the idea of having a pet. So, instead of asking for it to be removed, or just given an option to remove it, I’ll suggest a new skill, and it may change the idea of the Druid a little bit.

What we know:

All the Elite Specs revealed thus far have had additional abilities, or upgraded abilities to their F skills. We can only expect the same for the Druid. And since the F abilities for Druids are tied to the pets, here’s a suggestion for them.

Sacrifice [F5]
Sacrifice the current pet, becoming one with its spirit. You gain its power and abilities.
1 sec. cast
10 sec. cooldown

Revive [F5]
Revive the pet, releasing its spirit.
3 sec. cast
10 sec. cooldown

The new [F5] skill would flip upon using it. The pet UI would change to new [F1] to [F4] skills that mimic the pet’s skills, or are tied closely to its skills. You would no longer have the option to switch to a different pet using [F4] as you have sacrificed one.

You also gain attributes equal to 20% of your pet’s when you sacrifice them. (arbitrary number to be adjusted)

What this does:

This allows people to carry the pets they want to get more power or more support as before, but puts more control in the user’s hands rather than relying on AI that is so easily forgotten about. People can still play as they used to if they choose.

It’s not the perfect solution, I know. But I think now is the chance. I know it’s late for suggestions, the major decisions for the elite spec have been made, but here’s hoping!

10 Level 80s | http://tinyurl.com/oj4e9hr
1900+ Hrs Played | http://tinyurl.com/ppq4ksz
No Precursor | http://tinyurl.com/njgsg3l

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Posted by: Skyline Crash.6254

Skyline Crash.6254

I was actually gonna post something like this lol. But yeah I agree, this is what I think the druid is gonna be like. Also, that rangers will take the traits from beastmastery also.

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

Would be totally overpowered if the ranger were to be affected by pet’s trait. What do you do about shout?

- does guard grant you stealth and protection?
- does sick’em grant you 40% damage and 40% movement speed?
- does Search and rescue force you to go to the downed player and rez it?
- does protect me! protect you with your own body, resulting in no damage mitigation at all?
- Signet of renewal will pull allies condition on you, are you ok with that?
- vigorous training need a pet swap… sad, that make 1 trait out.
- Allies aid if you are already rezing your allies do you need the search and rescue thingy?
- Empathic bond, will you pull your own conditions to yourself?
- Clarion bond, how will it work?
- Alpha training become useless, you won’t take the first strike of your pet.
- Companion’s might free might and bleed on every crit… totally OP
- Pet’s prowess free movement speed and critical damage?

There are to many hindrance to that idea of yours, sorry.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

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Posted by: Toolbox.9375

Toolbox.9375

I wonder how that’d work out with Strength of the Pack and Fortifying Bond. XD

But yeah, that sounds neat. Would open up some interesting possibilities. Jaguar would definitely be even more of a go-to pet, if you gain the unbreaking critical-bestowing stealth. XD

The class is always greener on the other side.

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Posted by: Skyline Crash.6254

Skyline Crash.6254

Would be totally overpowered if the ranger were to be affected by pet’s trait. What do you do about shout?

- does guard grant you stealth and protection?
- does sick’em grant you 40% damage and 40% movement speed?
- does Search and rescue force you to go to the downed player and rez it?
- does protect me! protect you with your own body, resulting in no damage mitigation at all?
- Signet of renewal will pull allies condition on you, are you ok with that?
- vigorous training need a pet swap… sad, that make 1 trait out.
- Allies aid if you are already rezing your allies do you need the search and rescue thingy?
- Empathic bond, will you pull your own conditions to yourself?
- Clarion bond, how will it work?
- Alpha training become useless, you won’t take the first strike of your pet.
- Companion’s might free might and bleed on every crit… totally OP
- Pet’s prowess free movement speed and critical damage?

There are to many hindrance to that idea of yours, sorry.

1. Reduced effectiveness
2. Reduced effectiveness
3. Ranger does a stronger revive.
4. Reduced effectiveness
5. Reduce effectiveness of conditions applied.
6. I think you could still pet swap (as in you have the ability to use their active skills/gain some of their attribute properties) so this wouldn’t be a problem.
7. Basically a second search and rescue. Skills do this all the time (I.e. guardian and their smite on heal and regular smite). While one is on CD you can still use the other one.
8. Act as condi clear with reduced effectiveness.
9. Pet swap still remains, see 6.
10. Ranger gets 2 stacks of opening strike.
11. Add an internal cooldown.
12. Reduced effectiveness.

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

all of what you say, is like saying : new trait and new skills introduced. They most likely won’t create alternative shout and trait in the core ranger. That would be one hell of a work just for 1 elite spec.

Beside, they released the actual spec system with each elite spec in mind so, there are really few chance that an elite spec does not fit with the current core specializations.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

(edited by Dadnir.5038)

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Posted by: ArchieD.6972

ArchieD.6972

Would be totally overpowered if the ranger were to be affected by pet’s trait. What do you do about shout?

- does guard grant you stealth and protection?
- does sick’em grant you 40% damage and 40% movement speed?
- does Search and rescue force you to go to the downed player and rez it?
- does protect me! protect you with your own body, resulting in no damage mitigation at all?
- Signet of renewal will pull allies condition on you, are you ok with that?
- vigorous training need a pet swap… sad, that make 1 trait out.
- Allies aid if you are already rezing your allies do you need the search and rescue thingy?
- Empathic bond, will you pull your own conditions to yourself?
- Clarion bond, how will it work?
- Alpha training become useless, you won’t take the first strike of your pet.
- Companion’s might free might and bleed on every crit… totally OP
- Pet’s prowess free movement speed and critical damage?

There are to many hindrance to that idea of yours, sorry.

1. Reduced effectiveness
2. Reduced effectiveness
3. Ranger does a stronger revive.
4. Reduced effectiveness
5. Reduce effectiveness of conditions applied.
6. I think you could still pet swap (as in you have the ability to use their active skills/gain some of their attribute properties) so this wouldn’t be a problem.
7. Basically a second search and rescue. Skills do this all the time (I.e. guardian and their smite on heal and regular smite). While one is on CD you can still use the other one.
8. Act as condi clear with reduced effectiveness.
9. Pet swap still remains, see 6.
10. Ranger gets 2 stacks of opening strike.
11. Add an internal cooldown.
12. Reduced effectiveness.

Pretty much this. Numbers can be tweaked of course for balance.

1) Sure, the spirit is a part of you. Tweak numbers.
2) Same as 1.
3) Haven’t thought it through, but I like Skyline’s suggestion.
4) Remember the spirit is a part of you, it can be a part of your actions. I’d say it uses its spirit to protect you.
5) Again, the spirit inside you does. Perhaps you get a little bit of the conditions, but not all of it.
6) You don’t have to fight with a Sacrificed pet all the time, it would still work when they’re not. This would be one that if you think you’ll have a sacrificed pet most of the time you probably don’t want to take it. It’s like taking Greatsword traits and not using a Greatsword, why would you do that?
7) Same as above, you might not want to choose that one if you won’t have a pet out.
8) The spirit will cleanse you.
9) Again, maybe one you might not want to take. See 6.
10) Like Skyline said, I’d think you’d have two stacks of it.
11) Leave as is. It’s in the Beastmastery line, probably a bad combination if you’re sacrificing your beasts. (or if you want people to play as they choose, then do what Skyline said and put a cd on it)
12) Again, Beastmastery. Leave as is. If you’re not planning on using a pet, don’t take pet traits. (again, see 6. replace “a pet” with “greatsword” and it’s the same thing)

10 Level 80s | http://tinyurl.com/oj4e9hr
1900+ Hrs Played | http://tinyurl.com/ppq4ksz
No Precursor | http://tinyurl.com/njgsg3l

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

Well, I’ll say it again : You are closing your eyes on the fact that’s they already rework the traits from each spec so that they fit with the elite spec they want to release.

The pet is an important part of the ranger, you simply can’t remove it or say “let’s tweak skills and traits so that we can merge it with us and they work fine”. It’s like :

- a mesmer that would say : “Let’s remove our shatter skills for an elite spec where we could become a phantasm, we could tweak some trait and skill when we use it”
- a guardian that would say : “let remove virtues so we could become a virtuous angel in an elite spec, we could tweak some trait and skill when we use it”
- a necromancer that would say : “Let’s remove the shroud and have some F1→F5 instead. Let’s tweak trait that hinder us for that.”
… etc.

The moment hey released the core specializations, it should have been obvious for everybody that every profession would stay stucked with their core mechanism or at least a variation of it. Your idea, even if it’s a neet idea would step to much on the core mechanism of the Ranger. It’s sad, frustrating, boring or whatever you can come up as a negative though but, the ranger will have to deal with a pet whatever elite spec they come up with.

They’ve got plenty of possibility to use as elite spec that doesn’t step on the core mechanism and the trait they decided to release for the core specializations.
- They can choose to give a whole set of generic spirit pets (same design than actual pet but with a spirit form and their own new skills on F2)
- They can choose to replace F2 by something linked with the elite specialization trait.
- They can choose to create elemental pets attuning yourself to the element of the pet you have.
… etc.
Basically, whatever come in mind but with an external pet that can physically hit your foe, have an access to F2 and F4, fit with the utility in there actual shape and does not leave behind any core trait. Otherwise it doesn’t meet the basic requirement for the core mechanism.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

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Posted by: Ehecatl.9172

Ehecatl.9172

I dislike any mechanic that seeks to completely remove the pet as a viable choice by giving the ranger unbelievable buffs and all the pet’s utilities.

Elite specs enhance the old mechanic with new options, it doesn’t make the old mechanic redundant and useless.

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Posted by: ArchieD.6972

ArchieD.6972

I dislike any mechanic that seeks to completely remove the pet as a viable choice by giving the ranger unbelievable buffs and all the pet’s utilities.

Elite specs enhance the old mechanic with new options, it doesn’t make the old mechanic redundant and useless.

My suggestion was not to make running with a pet not a viable choice, it was to make running without a pet a viable choice. Big difference. Tweak numbers, whatever, for balance. I’m not a game designer and I’m not going to pretend I know what would be balanced without running tests. This is why they have Betas and have tons of feedback.

-snip-

I can respect all you’ve said, but I don’t think this goes completely against the core mechanic. The pet is “still there” as you have made it part of yourself and you have abilities tied to it. Perhaps it could be like the Warrior’s berserk and have a cd, I don’t know.

It would be easy for a minor trait in the Druid line to be “any skill or trait that would affect your pet would affect you, with reduced affect, instead while a pet is sacrificed.” No need to reword any existing traits. (just an example, don’t jump all over me for it)

Believe me, I’ve thought about the negatives and considered there would be some tweaking that would need to happen to make it work, but it could work.

Remember, this is all just for fun, throwing out a suggestion. They already know what they’re doing for the Druid, they’ve already stated that you’re going to have your pet as a Druid. Just relax and don’t get your panties in a bunch.

10 Level 80s | http://tinyurl.com/oj4e9hr
1900+ Hrs Played | http://tinyurl.com/ppq4ksz
No Precursor | http://tinyurl.com/njgsg3l

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

I would like to add just 1 argument against your suggestion.

With this sacrifice skill, you grant to the ranger 20% power/prec/tough/vit. which is a range of extra stat that goes from 300 pts per stat to up to 1000pt (bear vitality).
From a straight point of view, I’d say it’s okay. but let’s look at row effect :

Example :
I’m using a bear, I gain :
300 power
300 prec
460 tough
1000 vitality
I know have a zerk ranger that have as row stat in PvP :
2500 power
2200 precision
2500 armor
2000 vitality
I now sit at 35k HP and hit harder than any zerker out there. Further more, if I happen to use an elementalist conjure (let’s say frostbow) which damage aren’t balanced around the fact that I have a pet, I will outclass every other profession at using it and do around 10% more damage than them.

Now let’s talk about the real nasty things : Consumable.
We take the ogre sharpening stone and gain, as power 4% of vitality and 6% of toughness. which will roughly mean 200 more power. Let’s add some more food/might stack/runes/sigil/banner…
You sit at a power that excced 4k which is 25% more than any other profession.

Congratulation you achieve to attain the stat hard cap with just this sacrifice skill and your damage/survivability with conjure are unmatch in the game. New meta 1 thief, 2 ele and 2 druid. This is what we call imbalance.

There is a reason behind the fact that the ranger have lower overall damage value, it is because he have the pet as core mechanic. Giving more stats than other profession can achieve to the ranger would only lead to a broken state of the game because nobody will pass the chance to exploit these broken stat.

NB.: The same can be said about a row damage boost. There will always be an easy way to exploit this kind of broken mechanism.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

(edited by Dadnir.5038)

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Posted by: Maximum Potato.5923

Maximum Potato.5923

I can definitely ANet taking the Druid down this route, yeah. I really like having my pet, but it’s impossible to ignore the constant roars of players who want the mechanic removed (My opinion on these people isn’t very high, but that’s a story for another day). ‘Sacrifice’ might be too strong a word, but I can definitely see Druids getting different bonuses based on the type of pet they have equipped, and stowing the pet for added buffs seems feasible. I doubt we’ll get access to all the pet’s skills after stowing it though, otherwise Druid would just flat out beat Ranger, since none of your damage would be tied to AI.

Who’s a good boy? Not you, since you aggro’d the BLOODY CHAMP-

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Posted by: ArchieD.6972

ArchieD.6972

-snip-

You would’ve saved yourself a lot of headache if you just understood the first thing I said when I mentioned gaining stats from the chosen pet. I said:

“You also gain attributes equal to 20% of your pet’s when you sacrifice them. (arbitrary number to be adjusted)

What that means is I put zero thought into that number. None. It would, of course, need to be adjusted for balance. Maybe it’s 5%, 1%, 30%, who knows. Whatever it takes to make you on par with having the pet. Of course it won’t be the same as having one, that’s the fun in it. It will be two different play styles. There will be times when having a pet may be a better option, then there would be times where not having it would be better.

Have you thought about having access to some of the pet’s skills means that you would have to be in melee range (if it’s a strike) which puts you in more danger than sitting far back as you would with the pet. Likewise, if mobility is a high priority, it’d be easier not having to deal with a pet.

Think of the concept, not the numbers. The numbers can follow.

10 Level 80s | http://tinyurl.com/oj4e9hr
1900+ Hrs Played | http://tinyurl.com/ppq4ksz
No Precursor | http://tinyurl.com/njgsg3l

(edited by ArchieD.6972)

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Posted by: Kodama.6453

Kodama.6453

Think of the concept, not the numbers. The numbers can follow.

Sry but I have to say: the way you describe the concept, it seems to be broken too.
You said ranger would get the pets skills to use. These are balanced around one fact: except the f2 skills, each of your pets skills is tied to ai.

There are 9 pet families in game without any new upcoming pets for hot (I hope there will be some). So the ranger gets a total of 27 skills which he can use on demand now. Sure, you are only able to use 3 of them which are tied together, but still it is a giant raise of skill diversity. And there are some really hard hitting attacks in this list (like drakes Tail Swipe, some vids in forums show the drake, which doesn’t have a power level even close to a player ones, this can hit for 19k and more), if you pair that with the really high mobility of a ranger, this becomes a beast.

About the “tweak the numbers” thing … I really doubt there would be so much effort to tweak every single pet skill in this game to get this idea to work. Anet is having a hard time to balance the skills, which are already in game at their current state. If they had to fix all these skills, this would be total chaos.

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Posted by: Skyline Crash.6254

Skyline Crash.6254

Think of the concept, not the numbers. The numbers can follow.

Sry but I have to say: the way you describe the concept, it seems to be broken too.
You said ranger would get the pets skills to use. These are balanced around one fact: except the f2 skills, each of your pets skills is tied to ai.

There are 9 pet families in game without any new upcoming pets for hot (I hope there will be some). So the ranger gets a total of 27 skills which he can use on demand now. Sure, you are only able to use 3 of them which are tied together, but still it is a giant raise of skill diversity. And there are some really hard hitting attacks in this list (like drakes Tail Swipe, some vids in forums show the drake, which doesn’t have a power level even close to a player ones, this can hit for 19k and more), if you pair that with the really high mobility of a ranger, this becomes a beast.

About the “tweak the numbers” thing … I really doubt there would be so much effort to tweak every single pet skill in this game to get this idea to work. Anet is having a hard time to balance the skills, which are already in game at their current state. If they had to fix all these skills, this would be total chaos.

No one ever said anything about them getting all of the pet skills. Just the F2 ability. And even if they did, they would only get 3 out of the 4 because the first one is an auto attack. And 2 out of those 3 are just gonna be rehashed for each species.

If you think this is too much work for ONE class, take a look at the guild wars one campaigns that they did. All had 2 classes each and a huge world. I’m pretty sure they could do this, its all about going in and changing the values of each skill. But that’s why they have a development team; to make the game.

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Posted by: ArchieD.6972

ArchieD.6972

Think of the concept, not the numbers. The numbers can follow.

Sry but I have to say: the way you describe the concept, it seems to be broken too.
You said ranger would get the pets skills to use. These are balanced around one fact: except the f2 skills, each of your pets skills is tied to ai.

There are 9 pet families in game without any new upcoming pets for hot (I hope there will be some). So the ranger gets a total of 27 skills which he can use on demand now. Sure, you are only able to use 3 of them which are tied together, but still it is a giant raise of skill diversity. And there are some really hard hitting attacks in this list (like drakes Tail Swipe, some vids in forums show the drake, which doesn’t have a power level even close to a player ones, this can hit for 19k and more), if you pair that with the really high mobility of a ranger, this becomes a beast.

About the “tweak the numbers” thing … I really doubt there would be so much effort to tweak every single pet skill in this game to get this idea to work. Anet is having a hard time to balance the skills, which are already in game at their current state. If they had to fix all these skills, this would be total chaos.

I was leaning much more on the “or are tied closely to its skills” part of that statement. You’re not going to get the auto attack. But maybe all bears have a defensive skill, a taunt, and an interrupt. And depending which bear you get, there will also be a bleed, or a daze, or whatever. CDs on these skill of course.

10 Level 80s | http://tinyurl.com/oj4e9hr
1900+ Hrs Played | http://tinyurl.com/ppq4ksz
No Precursor | http://tinyurl.com/njgsg3l

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Posted by: Kodama.6453

Kodama.6453

I was leaning much more on the “or are tied closely to its skills” part of that statement. You’re not going to get the auto attack. But maybe all bears have a defensive skill, a taunt, and an interrupt. And depending which bear you get, there will also be a bleed, or a daze, or whatever. CDs on these skill of course.

I see. Looing at it that way, I apologize for getting the whole concept wrong. If Anet adds an icon for each pet in game, so other players can tell which pet you “consumed”, this seems to be a good idea.

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Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

Why are we talking like ANYTHING about the druid is still up for discussion? The new trait line/class mechanics is already set in stone and is going to get only the tiniest of all beta-testing cycles which means only really, really small tweaks are going to be possible before the Druid is pushed to Live.

You want to have a conversation about the next all-new Espec for Rangers, great. But you are WASTING YOUR BREATH pitching ideas for the Druid. What they are already planning (and have been planning for the last 20 months or so) is what they are going to do with only the most minute course corrections from us.

So how about save that energy for when we actually know something about the Druid and test/comment the heck out of it then?

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Why are we talking like ANYTHING about the druid is still up for discussion? The new trait line/class mechanics is already set in stone and is going to get only the tiniest of all beta-testing cycles which means only really, really small tweaks are going to be possible before the Druid is pushed to Live.

You want to have a conversation about the next all-new Espec for Rangers, great. But you are WASTING YOUR BREATH pitching ideas for the Druid. What they are already planning (and have been planning for the last 20 months or so) is what they are going to do with only the most minute course corrections from us.

So how about save that energy for when we actually know something about the Druid and test/comment the heck out of it then?

Because Rangers like to theorycraft. So you are wasting your breath telling us we shouldn’t do it. Where’s the harm?

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Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

I adore Ranger theorycraft. I did TONS of it in the Ranger CDI. My point isn’t to not speculate on what could be done with Rangers and their class mechanics. Its to not frame that speculations as something that has any relevance whatsoever to Druids. That ship sailed over a year ago.

The harm is having players sitting around afterwards bemoaning “oh yeah, I wish they’d done something more like [idea in threa X]” when even a casual understanding of design scheduling would tell you that was never going to happen. The harm is directing that energy at a lost cause when it could be directed at a future Espec that’s not already locked in. And Ranger players are in particular guilty of tilting at windmills like “the Espec that will fix our problems” when the problems have to be fixed in the core profession or not at all.

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.

(edited by Nike.2631)

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Well, its all the same really, its just nomenclature. Any theorycrafting done for the Druid and not used could easily be applied to a future Espec.

I’ve already made a future Espec for Ranger with all the tooltips, that I showed everyone, a land spear Lancer, the possibility of which is pretty abysmal, but if my trait ideas give them good ideas, I’ll be happy.

I totally agree that the core needs its fixes before any Espec.

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

I think you didn’t get my point.

What I was trying to say is that whatever “buff” you would gain from sacrificing your pet (In this case raw stat increase), it would end up in something inbalanced and extremly frustrating for the ranger community.
On one point, rangers would simply press Anet to increase the number of stat given because “we hit like crap even with this!”. And on the other hand players would exploit this mechanism with “bundle”, ending this into an imbalanced meta.

The dps issue of the ranger does not lie in a lack of stat or a lack of raw damage bonus trait. The dps issue only come from the fact that weapon have lower coefficient to achieve a state of balance when you add the pet dps.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.