Guild Wars 2

It’s a commonly held belief that the Sword does the most DPS. Yesterday, i was in the PvP lobby playing around with all the MH weapons and was surprised to see that the SB seemed to take down the target dummies faster (by almost 10%). That got me questioning the dominance of the Sword.

What makes the sword so good, is that it can cripple a foe from both auto-attack and Monarch’s Leap, meaning your pet has a much higher chance of hitting. With other weapons, foes can just run in circles and completely avoid the pet.

Yes, they did mention that the melee damage is alot stronger than the range damage in gw. Gs is also powerful in terms of damage but imo sword is stronger due to its attack speed for rangers

Also auto attack puts might on your pet

Sword has highest power output of any ranger weapons. SB stacks bleeds though, so it is effected by condition dmg. Did you have any while testing? Did you time it as well?

lujate.5432:

It’s a commonly held belief that the Sword does the most DPS. Yesterday, i was in the PvP lobby playing around with all the MH weapons and was surprised to see that the SB seemed to take down the target dummies faster (by almost 10%). That got me questioning the dominance of the Sword.

What build were you using? Sword and greatsword both kill mobs faster than the bows, at least with a power build they do. Also, remember that with a sword you have your offhand skills to factor into the equation, which means a dps buff with horn or burning damage (plus might from the fire field) with torch.

I don’t PvP on my Ranger, so being kited is not a concern.

In PvE, i run 10/30/0/0/30 using zerker gear and Valkyrie trinkets. I know all the PvP weapons were without sigils, but i didn’t think to check my traits, runes or amulet. I’ll do that ASAP.

I tried both GS and Sword/dagger, and while I preferred the greater mobility and animations of the GS, I actually found I was much more successful in WvW with the Sword/Dagger set up.

The lack of control can be an issue that you have to learn when to stop spamming 1 and always keep 2 in reserve for an escape, however it does seem to have a huge response lag compared to other melee skills in general. If there is one thing they could do to help Rangers in pvp it would be to make #2 respond faster. It seems if your riding the Sword 1 skill cycle, it takes forever to break out of it with skill 2.

lujate.5432:

It’s a commonly held belief that the Sword does the most DPS. Yesterday, i was in the PvP lobby playing around with all the MH weapons and was surprised to see that the SB seemed to take down the target dummies faster (by almost 10%). That got me questioning the dominance of the Sword.

Here’s the test data I collected several months ago using steady weapons and a base build (no traits, 916 power, ignoring crits, 0 condition damage) against the heavy golem. These are raw DD (direct damage) figures, no bleeds.

Sword
83 damage per 1.8 sec, or 46.1 DPS, or 362.8 DPS with an exotic level 80 weapon.

Shortbow
19 damage per 0.51 sec, or 37.2 DPS, or 270.4 DPS with an exotic level 80 weapon.

So they’re a little more than 90 DPS apart. Just 3 stacks of bleed (42.5 per sec with 0 condition damage at level 80) will swing it in SB’s favor. Especially against heavy armor targets where DD is reduced but bleed damage is not.

Things get more complicated when you’re adding stats. Power is a straight multiplier, while condition damage is mixed with a constant for your level. So going from 916 to 1916 power (+1000 power) would increase the sword’s DPS to 758.9 DPS. A net gain of 396.1 DPS.

But a SB specialist who gained 1000 condition damage would only increase bleed damage from 42.5 to 92.5 DPS, or a net gain of 50 DPS per stack. The SB would now need a 10 bleed stack to equal the sword. That’s actually worse that a SB with 1916 power and 0 CD. That would only need a 5 stack of bleed to equal the sword.

You also have to factor in that non-flanking SB shots won’t bleed, and there’s a trait for 10% additional SB damage if flanking. Sword has other benefits too though. The cripple has already been mentioned. Every 3rd hit also gives your pet a stack of might. It’s AOE – if you’re fighting just two adjacent targets, it will easily surpass the SB. And it leaves your off-hand free for the weapon (2 skills) of your choice.

Overall I think the situations you’ll be in matter more than the raw DPS of these two weapons against a single target. I tend to use SB more outdoors, sword more when I’ll be facing multiple targets.

where do You have AoE on 1h sword? :P I didn’t see any….
as for me – 1h sword would be good weapon if auto-atack won’t locked us up in place….

Lord Trejgon.2809:

where do You have AoE on 1h sword? :P I didn’t see any….
as for me – 1h sword would be good weapon if auto-atack won’t locked us up in place….

It cleaves on 2 of the 3 attacks in the chain.

Whoops, I had Afflicted runes and Rampager’s amulet. After changing that, Sword pulled ahead by about 5%. Although Afflicted/Rampager’s SB was still about 2% ahead of the Valkyrie setup Sword.

Solandri.9640:

Here’s the test data I collected several months ago using steady weapons and a base build (no traits, 916 power, ignoring crits, 0 condition damage) against the heavy golem. These are raw DD (direct damage) figures, no bleeds.

Sword
83 damage per 1.8 sec, or 46.1 DPS, or 362.8 DPS with an exotic level 80 weapon.

Shortbow
19 damage per 0.51 sec, or 37.2 DPS, or 270.4 DPS with an exotic level 80 weapon.

So they’re a little more than 90 DPS apart. Just 3 stacks of bleed (42.5 per sec with 0 condition damage at level 80) will swing it in SB’s favor. Especially against heavy armor targets where DD is reduced but bleed damage is not.

Things get more complicated when you’re adding stats. Power is a straight multiplier, while condition damage is mixed with a constant for your level. So going from 916 to 1916 power (+1000 power) would increase the sword’s DPS to 758.9 DPS. A net gain of 396.1 DPS.

But a SB specialist who gained 1000 condition damage would only increase bleed damage from 42.5 to 92.5 DPS, or a net gain of 50 DPS per stack. The SB would now need a 10 bleed stack to equal the sword. That’s actually worse that a SB with 1916 power and 0 CD. That would only need a 5 stack of bleed to equal the sword.

You also have to factor in that non-flanking SB shots won’t bleed, and there’s a trait for 10% additional SB damage if flanking. Sword has other benefits too though. The cripple has already been mentioned. Every 3rd hit also gives your pet a stack of might. It’s AOE – if you’re fighting just two adjacent targets, it will easily surpass the SB. And it leaves your off-hand free for the weapon (2 skills) of your choice.

Overall I think the situations you’ll be in matter more than the raw DPS of these two weapons against a single target. I tend to use SB more outdoors, sword more when I’ll be facing multiple targets.

I would like to challenge some points you have made above.

First, with 1000 Condition Damage, the Ranger would only need 5.28 stacks to equal the DPS of a sword with 1000 extra Power.

Secondly, the Hunter’s Tactics trait provides bonus 10% damage to all direct damage, sword or shortbow, while flanking.

Besides that, I would like to ask Rangers who use swords something that I haven’t been able to wrap my head around.

I always assumed Hornet’s Sting and Serpent’s Strike were cooldowns saved, either for Evasion or other situational purposes. Off-hand weapons, even with Off-Hand Training are generally 12s or more cooldowns. Therefore, the main source of DPS of a sword/x is the Slash-Kick-Pounce (“SKP”) chain attack (Skill #1).

Now, if you’re able to stay stationary and leave SKP on autocast, then I agree you can get really good mileage with the sword. However, in numerous fights, you are required to react to mechanics to survive. The common thread of wisdom I hear to overcome this is to “not spam #1”.

So my question is: if you’re not spamming SKP, how exactly are you attacking the mob/boss?

You should consider the 1h sword as a weapon set rather than just the sword it self. with a condition build you can go with torch and for Power you can go axe. If you need more stability you can go dagger. This stuff is pretty old and while I agree that at time we need to challege widely held beliefs this isnt one of them for it has been well tested and documented one just needs to look.

Omnitek.3876:

Lord Trejgon.2809:

where do You have AoE on 1h sword? :P I didn’t see any….
as for me – 1h sword would be good weapon if auto-atack won’t locked us up in place….

It cleaves on 2 of the 3 attacks in the chain.

never noticed that….

Serraphin Storm.2369:

You should consider the 1h sword as a weapon set rather than just the sword it self. with a condition build you can go with torch and for Power you can go axe. If you need more stability you can go dagger. This stuff is pretty old and while I agree that at time we need to challege widely held beliefs this isnt one of them for it has been well tested and documented one just needs to look.

More than Axe, with a power build you’d go warhorn, buffing your damage with might and fury. But yes you’re absolutely right, you have to take the offhands into account when comparing Sword and Shortbow.

Also, note that quickness only grants a 33% attack speed boost to the shortbow, as opposed to 50% to sword and all other weapons. It might seem like a minor point, but many ranger builds make heavy use of quickness to boost their damage output.

Shaojack.3871:

Also auto attack puts might on your pet

crit-tanker gear with traits give your pet perma-might with SB…. and best thing is, you get perma-might without being rooted.

So my question is: if you’re not spamming SKP, how exactly are you attacking the mob/boss?

I actually don’t take it off autoattack.
That sort of thing might be fine in sPvP, but do you know how often you have to click that button to chew through the massive HP bars of your typical dungeon boss encounter? There’s less licks to the center of ten thousand tootsie pops, I swear to god.
With sword you’re not trying to find a way to keep it from being annoying, you’re just trying to figure which way annoys you less. Play around with it a bit, and see what approach makes it get more liveable (if it ever does).

I have NEVER understood why 1h sword locks you into that animation in the first place. It’s too much of an annoyance for me to want to learn how to manage.

Ojimaru.8970:

Besides that, I would like to ask Rangers who use swords something that I haven’t been able to wrap my head around.

I always assumed Hornet’s Sting and Serpent’s Strike were cooldowns saved, either for Evasion or other situational purposes. Off-hand weapons, even with Off-Hand Training are generally 12s or more cooldowns. Therefore, the main source of DPS of a sword/x is the Slash-Kick-Pounce (“SKP”) chain attack (Skill #1).

Now, if you’re able to stay stationary and leave SKP on autocast, then I agree you can get really good mileage with the sword. However, in numerous fights, you are required to react to mechanics to survive. The common thread of wisdom I hear to overcome this is to “not spam #1”.

So my question is: if you’re not spamming SKP, how exactly are you attacking the mob/boss?

Thanks for the correction on the bleed stacks.

When I did the math long ago, the poison damage from sword 3 made it pretty competitive with sword autoattack DPS. You’re not losing much by hitting 3 every time it comes off cooldown, and since poison diminishes the effectiveness of healing it may even end up helping (reduced healing is equivalent to doing damage).

Sword 2 is obviously a DPS loss. However, it’s generally used to hop out of range of a big attack. So the tradeoff here is that you’re using a skill to evade rather than burning stamina for a dodge. i.e. if you weren’t losing the DPS due to sword 2, you’d be losing it from a dodge anyway.

Obviously it’s a bit different with SB since it’s a ranged weapon – you usually don’t have to dodge to avoid a big attack. However, the bow weapons can miss if the target moves, so they can lose DPS too. The more you abstract the analysis away from ideal test golem conditions, the more scenarios are possible. Most of those scenarios aren’t directly comparable either (how do you do a DPS tradeoff comparison of SB missing due to a target moving, vs. sword 2 taking you out of attack range for a bit?). And you can make it even more complicated by adding additional enemies – now you’re firing the bow at range, but there’s still someone meleeing you so you need to occasionally dodge/evade.

So it’s more a matter of knowing/learning what each weapon is capable of, then applying the proper weapon and proper weapon skill in the proper situation. Most people who run with sword/x will use a ranged weapon (bow or axe) as their secondary, and swap between them as the situation warrants. If an opportunity for melee damage presents itself, use the sword. If melee is too risky, use the ranged weapon. Sword/dagger + greatsword seems to be popular too as combined they have a ton of evades, making it a very strong defensive combo.

Prysin.8542:

Shaojack.3871:

Also auto attack puts might on your pet

crit-tanker gear with traits give your pet perma-might with SB…. and best thing is, you get perma-might without being rooted.

The delay between attacks on SB is 0.51 sec, while sword autoattack is 1.8 sec for 3 attacks, or 0.6 sec. on average So yes the SB will give slightly more criticals than sword. But with a 100% critical rate it’d be just 17% more criticals. Or one extra might stack for your pet every 3.6 sec.

Also, the might given by the trait lasts just 1 sec. So best case with 100% critical rate you’ll only give the pet 1-2 stacks of might, usually 2.

The might given by sword autoattack’s Pounce lasts 5 sec. If you just leave yourself on sword autoattack, your pet will permanently have 2-3 stacks of might, usually 3. If you use the same trait and same 100% crit rate, this will go up to 4-5 stacks, usually 5.

chemiclord.3978:

I have NEVER understood why 1h sword locks you into that animation in the first place. It’s too much of an annoyance for me to want to learn how to manage.

i made some time ago topic in sugestion with all analisis why it looks like so and i gave my proposition how to fix it.
all the problem are skill 2 and 3 from autochain – they are gap closers. and in efect each casting this skill is trying to move You toward enemy.

Problem is older and deeper – first version of 1hsword auto on second skill (kick) has a knockback – so third was gap closer – but ANet quickly realized that knockback on auto is rather much OP so they converted knockback to cripple – but leave “leap” as a leap but without leap finisher (healing spring and unending heal :P)
I sugested to change a little autochain and had phew ideas – but my thread was left without any response from players.

Solandri.9640:

Ojimaru.8970:

Besides that, I would like to ask Rangers who use swords something that I haven’t been able to wrap my head around.

I always assumed Hornet’s Sting and Serpent’s Strike were cooldowns saved, either for Evasion or other situational purposes. Off-hand weapons, even with Off-Hand Training are generally 12s or more cooldowns. Therefore, the main source of DPS of a sword/x is the Slash-Kick-Pounce (“SKP”) chain attack (Skill #1).

Now, if you’re able to stay stationary and leave SKP on autocast, then I agree you can get really good mileage with the sword. However, in numerous fights, you are required to react to mechanics to survive. The common thread of wisdom I hear to overcome this is to “not spam #1”.

So my question is: if you’re not spamming SKP, how exactly are you attacking the mob/boss?

Thanks for the correction on the bleed stacks.

When I did the math long ago, the poison damage from sword 3 made it pretty competitive with sword autoattack DPS. You’re not losing much by hitting 3 every time it comes off cooldown, and since poison diminishes the effectiveness of healing it may even end up helping (reduced healing is equivalent to doing damage).

Sword 2 is obviously a DPS loss. However, it’s generally used to hop out of range of a big attack. So the tradeoff here is that you’re using a skill to evade rather than burning stamina for a dodge. i.e. if you weren’t losing the DPS due to sword 2, you’d be losing it from a dodge anyway.

Obviously it’s a bit different with SB since it’s a ranged weapon – you usually don’t have to dodge to avoid a big attack. However, the bow weapons can miss if the target moves, so they can lose DPS too. The more you abstract the analysis away from ideal test golem conditions, the more scenarios are possible. Most of those scenarios aren’t directly comparable either (how do you do a DPS tradeoff comparison of SB missing due to a target moving, vs. sword 2 taking you out of attack range for a bit?). And you can make it even more complicated by adding additional enemies – now you’re firing the bow at range, but there’s still someone meleeing you so you need to occasionally dodge/evade.

So it’s more a matter of knowing/learning what each weapon is capable of, then applying the proper weapon and proper weapon skill in the proper situation. Most people who run with sword/x will use a ranged weapon (bow or axe) as their secondary, and swap between them as the situation warrants. If an opportunity for melee damage presents itself, use the sword. If melee is too risky, use the ranged weapon. Sword/dagger + greatsword seems to be popular too as combined they have a ton of evades, making it a very strong defensive combo.

Prysin.8542:

Shaojack.3871:

Also auto attack puts might on your pet

crit-tanker gear with traits give your pet perma-might with SB…. and best thing is, you get perma-might without being rooted.

The delay between attacks on SB is 0.51 sec, while sword autoattack is 1.8 sec for 3 attacks, or 0.6 sec. on average So yes the SB will give slightly more criticals than sword. But with a 100% critical rate it’d be just 17% more criticals. Or one extra might stack for your pet every 3.6 sec.

Also, the might given by the trait lasts just 1 sec. So best case with 100% critical rate you’ll only give the pet 1-2 stacks of might, usually 2.

The might given by sword autoattack’s Pounce lasts 5 sec. If you just leave yourself on sword autoattack, your pet will permanently have 2-3 stacks of might, usually 3. If you use the same trait and same 100% crit rate, this will go up to 4-5 stacks, usually 5.

Inanimate objects (like the door controller in CoF1) are another complicating factor to consider.