Guild Wars 2

…WvW zerg fights…

I think this is my main gripe with where there is a disconnect when it comes to discussing balance in the game. Most people immediately here balance and jump right to the “if I can’t zerg with it, it is a bad build that is balanced badly.”

Now, I’m not going to sit here and say that’s wrong, but it isn’t a broad enough spectrum to evaluate builds on, because the game honestly wasn’t and isn’t balanced around zerg play. I agree that more balance should be aimed towards what I’ll refer to as large group play, but look at the rest of the game, and you see that every other game mode outside of WvW was balanced mostly around the theme of 5 man groups.

Dungeons, Spvp, and even open world scenarios are all balanced around 5 man teams, or 5v5 scenarios. Heck, even the group size is only 5, as well as the AoE cap.

In hindsight, if the game was balanced around larger group, or zerg gameplay, then the group size and the AoE limit would be greater than 5. Now, I’m not sure why exactly that ANet thought it would be a good idea to add in a game mode that allows for such zerg gameplay, while only balancing for 5 man scenarios and then assuming than balance would “translate up” to zerg scenarios, because clearly that wasn’t and didn’t work.

So now we’re stuck in a situation where a lot of peoples favorite game mode involves getting in mobs with masses of people and attacking other masses of people, but the game isn’t balanced around it, and is only balanced around 5 out of the zerg hitting another 5 out of the zerg, which then with the AoE cap creates an RNG element of what hits what and what buffs what, and it allows for certain classes with heavy access to specific types of support (AoE stability/regen/prot/retal) to compound and steamroll less organized groups, which leaves only 2 group roles open; heavy, preferably AoE damage, and heavy support.

However, because again, the game is only balanced around 5 man groups, classes were actually meant to fit together like a puzzle more than all being capable of doing the same thing with the same output, which leaves a lot of classes outmatched and thereby almost excluded from larger scale engagements because they bring nothing useful to that style of engagement.

This leads to situation where now we have a separated community that can’t have a balance discussion with each other or even be civil at times which leads to “profession discrimination” in certain game modes, and just generally keeps people at each others throats because they play 2 different gametypes that aren’t even remotely balanced against each other, let alone within themselves. On top of that, the game just doesn’t translate well between game modes. A person with a zerg setup can’t go to PvP or dungeons with that setup and be as effective, and vice versa, and the issue it that it has gone unbalanced and unaddressed for so long that the community is literally split based on the game type people prefer.

Because of this, it’s making it near impossible to have a civil balance discussion because people either think the other game mode they don’t play is garbage and they have no respect for it and are unwilling to listen to why a class is balanced in that mode because it doesn’t affect them, or they literally don’t have the mental capacity to wrap their head around how the game modes are so different that it’s too hard to make singular balance changes that address all game types without making something overpowered or underpowered in one of those different game modes.

What we need to start doing as a community is breaking down each game type and start addressing whether or not things are balanced for that game type.

Moving forward from this particular date, I think this is where we should start:

Top Tier = within the 3 best classes as far as general performance goes
Average= middle of the pack
Bottom Tier = close to the worst, if not the worst, at something

Open world PvE: Average performance, maybe a little less due to the quirky and therefore harder to master weapons like the 1 handed sword, which is our best weapon DPS wise but probably hardest to master.

Dungeons: Average performance, DPS can be high but it is a very niche setup that requires practice and isn’t for everybody, and outside of that build and it’s learning curve, rangers don’t really do anything better or worse than other classes, except for the engagements in which the pets will die no matter what, in which case the class is poorly balanced for those engagements.

WvW-Zerg: Bottom Tier. AoE is lacking, group support is lacking, and really you are outclassed by just about every other class, just because even if you dump all of your stats and traits into doing good zerg damage, that’s all you can do, where as other classes zerg setups can achieve the same thing with better group support, AoE for multiple targets, and even better survivability.

WvW-Small Group/Solo: Probably Top Tier. Between a mixture of high mobility, high survivability, and good solo damage all at the same time, rangers can build very independently from the need of group support and still outperform several other classes. The damage is very decent, especially for a person spec’d for survival, and without having to sacrifice any mobility, there are few classes that can actually achieve all of these things in a single build.

PvP: Absolutely Top Tier. Top Tier since day 1. Good group support for the game type, good damage, great survival, great mobility, and overall just a great duelist, which matters more in this game mode than any other game mode.

This is just the baseline I wish the community would try to have its discussions around going into the future. There is just no sense in attacking each other because we all play different game modes, which inherently puts us at a crossroads because the game is balanced so differently in each of those game modes.

Also, there will be a balance subforum in the future, and it would be nice if we could collect our ideas and what is and is not balanced and for what game type, so that when the balance subforum is released, the whining and crying and misinformation and everything that is typical for EVERY profession subforum doesn’t bleed over into the balance subforum. At least we can try to handle that within the ranger community so that for the first time in more than a year, we can actually get some of our problems and reasonable complaints addressed.

I’d say ranger is one of the worst dungeon runners, and one of the best open world roamers (even though after world exploration that doesn’t really matter).

I agree with your other ratings though.

Excellent write up!

There’s also a large disparity between different specs of this class as well. For example, the difference in class capability between a power build, especially a signet oriented one, versus a condition build is like night and day.

When people talk about top tier in WvW roaming or sPvP they are almost exclusively talking about condition specs. That may or may not include spirits, but the end result is it’s the conditions winning the fight. This doesn’t mean a power based build can’t work in roaming or sPvP, only the hill you have to climb to be on the same page as a condi build, let alone what another class is capable is nearly insurmountable.

Overall I think most people agree with the primary issues with this class. We’re upset that pets aren’t responsive enough to be relied on. We’re upset that they don’t have enough health to function in WvW. We’re upset that so much of our group utility is tied down to pets and spirits. Most everyone agrees on which traits are bad (or at least the truly dreadful ones). Most agree that condition control is especially lacking which greatly impacts class diversity.

It’s when we branch out and try to discuss actual changes to this class instead of refining what we already have that causes most of the issue.

Like Ather mentioned, it truly is a lack of seeing the “greater picture”. Most of all, condition cleansing and spirits should be looked at.
Personally, i feel the need to remove either the healthbar or timer on spirits in PvE/WvW, but keep the existing spirit system for PvP. The current spirits are pretty OK balanced in PvP but just a joke in WvW zergs, and even small scale fighting.

Another thing to mention is how others perceive us rangers. Some have great respect, others talk trash. Most of the trash talk derives from the infamous BearBow PvE build. Which is a pretty ok PvE build, but it is absolutely destroying the reputation of rangers outside PvE.

Prysin.8542:

Like Ather mentioned, it truly is a lack of seeing the “greater picture”. Most of all, condition cleansing and spirits should be looked at.
Personally, i feel the need to remove either the healthbar or timer on spirits in PvE/WvW, but keep the existing spirit system for PvP. The current spirits are pretty OK balanced in PvP but just a joke in WvW zergs, and even small scale fighting.

Another thing to mention is how others perceive us rangers. Some have great respect, others talk trash. Most of the trash talk derives from the infamous BearBow PvE build. Which is a pretty ok PvE build, but it is absolutely destroying the reputation of rangers outside PvE.

In all honesty it’s ok in PvP too so long as you are going GLASS and are using that bear as your walking meat shield, but that is almost never the case in PvP…. If I see another soldier geared ranger using a bear and. 2 bows I’m gonna have to throw someone off Skyhammer….

Durzlla.6295:

Prysin.8542:

Like Ather mentioned, it truly is a lack of seeing the “greater picture”. Most of all, condition cleansing and spirits should be looked at.
Personally, i feel the need to remove either the healthbar or timer on spirits in PvE/WvW, but keep the existing spirit system for PvP. The current spirits are pretty OK balanced in PvP but just a joke in WvW zergs, and even small scale fighting.

Another thing to mention is how others perceive us rangers. Some have great respect, others talk trash. Most of the trash talk derives from the infamous BearBow PvE build. Which is a pretty ok PvE build, but it is absolutely destroying the reputation of rangers outside PvE.

In all honesty it’s ok in PvP too so long as you are going GLASS and are using that bear as your walking meat shield, but that is almost never the case in PvP…. If I see another soldier geared ranger using a bear and. 2 bows I’m gonna have to throw someone off Skyhammer….

Two longbows i presume?

Prysin.8542:

Durzlla.6295:

Prysin.8542:

Like Ather mentioned, it truly is a lack of seeing the “greater picture”. Most of all, condition cleansing and spirits should be looked at.
Personally, i feel the need to remove either the healthbar or timer on spirits in PvE/WvW, but keep the existing spirit system for PvP. The current spirits are pretty OK balanced in PvP but just a joke in WvW zergs, and even small scale fighting.

Another thing to mention is how others perceive us rangers. Some have great respect, others talk trash. Most of the trash talk derives from the infamous BearBow PvE build. Which is a pretty ok PvE build, but it is absolutely destroying the reputation of rangers outside PvE.

In all honesty it’s ok in PvP too so long as you are going GLASS and are using that bear as your walking meat shield, but that is almost never the case in PvP…. If I see another soldier geared ranger using a bear and. 2 bows I’m gonna have to throw someone off Skyhammer….

Two longbows i presume?

Want to know the worst part? I saw a Longbow + Bear ranger in CLERICS gear running Sick’Em, Spirit of Stone, sig of the wild, entangle and TU with like 15/25/0/0/30 or some abomination like that with only a longbow as a weapon (not 2 longbows with different sigils, literally one longbow, no other weapon set), I almost wanted to cry…

In clerics? That certainly is… intereting.. Although I played vs a berserker ranger who must have been 20/20/0/0/30 (or something like that).

Berserker LB + fully traited pet (probably with the skirmishing pet traits too) really isnt funny, in any sense.

But nice post OP.. all very true I’d say.

Edit: Mistyped funny as fun.. completely changing the meaning of the sentance

Durz, mightve been me, wait no couldnt cuz i dun PvP i do however run clerics/pvt LB + A BEAR (most reliable condition removal i got) with 10/0/0/30/30….

Cufufalating.8479:

In clerics? That certainly is… intereting.. Although I played vs a berserker ranger who must have been 20/20/0/0/30 (or something like that).

Berserker LB + fully traited pet (probably with the skirmishing pet traits too) really isnt fun, in any sense.

But nice post OP.. all very true I’d say.

I like that build tbh, I’ve used it a few times, take a brown bear (condi removal) or black bear and grab protect me, and runes of might and you’ve got a dangerous, tanky animal, not to mention MB works very well with a bear pet since that things gonna die when Ragnarok happens lol.

@Prysin, nah at least your build is trying to be support, his build was just…. Everywhere, I have no idea what he was trying to do with it and I don’t think he did either…

infantrydiv.1620:

I’d say ranger is one of the worst dungeon runners

not true..in good groups and yes they even possibel with rnds your dmg is about the same as warri, sometimes a bit higher and sometimes a bit lower, but dont rly care about this small number.

Bambula.3649:

infantrydiv.1620:

I’d say ranger is one of the worst dungeon runners

not true..in good groups and yes they even possibel with rnds your dmg is about the same as warri, sometimes a bit higher and sometimes a bit lower, but dont rly care about this small number.

If you give a ranger a fiery great sword, your silly little warrior is gonna cry when he sees the damage difference between him and you (including your pet)

yes same for lh ^^

Just want to point out that the reason ranger is top tier in sPvP is only because of spirit builds. BM and Traps, while good, simply can’t outperform the spirit ranger in terms of 1v1 capability and team support. And neither can any power build for that matter.

infantrydiv.1620:

I’d say ranger is one of the worst dungeon runners, and one of the best open world roamers (even though after world exploration that doesn’t really matter).

I agree with your other ratings though.

I only rated the average rating for dungeons due to a single build (I think it’s still 20/25/0/25/0) with Spotter and Frost spirit, which I think, and I could be wrong, but between those two support options and the rangers mainhand sword/x, that a person very skilled at staying alive on that build is probably going to be bringing some of the better group support along with damage, outside of might stacking.

However, these things only make it average because I do believe it is a very niche build that doesn’t work in every situation, and I’m also not honestly sure if there are any classes that can accomplish the same level of support and damage at the same time, but I do know that for rangers, the particular build is hard to use with the sword making dodging difficult, and there is always spirit placement issues, and knowing when not to melee, etc, where as there are other classes.

It’s a very easy change to make to the OP though, I just want some opinions on it.

I honestly have no idea how to rate open world PvE, because it’s like on a scale of not killing stuff to killing stuff, so then I guess you factor in time to kill, and the amount of enemies that you are capable of killing at one time, and here I only put ranger below top tier because AoE options are sorely lacking, so options for cleaving enemies down are more limited and not necessarily as strong.

Again, all debatable things that can be changed, I appreciate yours and everybody’s input

I didn’t even think anybody would read through everything because textwall lol.

Cufufalating.8479:

In clerics? That certainly is… intereting.. Although I played vs a berserker ranger who must have been 20/20/0/0/30 (or something like that).

Berserker LB + fully traited pet (probably with the skirmishing pet traits too) really isnt fun, in any sense.

But nice post OP.. all very true I’d say.

20/20/0/0/30 is my Beast Cannon build. Its a burst build based on quickness and pet DPS + player DPS. It produces unrivaled single target damage.

Atherakhia and Prysin;

Good points. If I was to outline some specific core issues that both of you bring up that actually effect all game modes, would it look something like this:

-Pet Responsiveness
-Reliance on small handful of traits for every working build
-Pet Survival not being balanced adequately for large scale engagements
-Utilities completely outclassing other utilities

@Soilder;
Yes, that is how it is currently, but only because Spirit Builds are the last updated build we had approaching the time period in which ANet started introducing power creep instead of balancing the classes appropriately (Dhuumfire, Healing Signet, etc).

However, rangers have been top tier for every single “period” of meta. Originally, traps were the meta, to the point were other players were even QQing about ranger trap builds and saying we needed our trap build nerfed. Then, there was the BM build era, and again, there were barely any team comps without rangers on them. Finally, we have this very long extended time period in which Spirits have been the meta, and while overall, our other builds either haven’t been buffed to keep up with the power creep ANet loves to give the game, rangers have still always been an integral part of the PvP metagame.

Not to say that you’re wrong, you’re totally right lol. I just want a blanket statement to cover it, basically so that I can compile a generic list of things the entire ranger community would appreciate seeing changes to moving forward, so that when the time comes I can do an in-depth write up on the balance forum when it finally opens up.

So how does categorizing it as something like “Apex predator builds created by lack of equally competitive options” sound? Since this addresses how rangers (and most other classes as well) are basically pidgeonholed into very specific builds in one way or another in most gamemodes, because we have a few really good options, and then a bunch of others that just aren’t as equally strong.

I wouldnt say ranger is AS affected as some other professions, atleast not in WvW. However it comes down to skill.

In WvW you can play bunker, zerker, support or hybrid. They will all work and function. Their success varies mainly by player skill. While many other professions are stuck with a “This, this or this build or GTFO”.

Like mentioned, BM Bunker works fine even today, I personally run power bunker, others prefer condition bunker, either way, they both produce acceptable results. One is focused on AOE/Cleave (Power) the other on single target DPS (Conditions)

I agree that we need to stop generalizing the state of the class based on game variants, but I think we need to take it further than just that. The state of the ranger is also widely generalized based on a specific build or weapon, not the overall state of the profession.

For instance, just because a single weapon or build is good, players will claim the ranger is good when in fact the class is broken overall, and only that single build is good.

I mean just look at dungeons. The ranger is competitive with the well known sword/frost spirit/spotter combination, but what about the other utilities and weapons?

• MH axe is low tier.
• Longbow is low tier.
• Shortbow is low tier.
• Greatsword is low tier.
• Traps are low tier.
• Signets are low tier.
• Shouts are low tier.

We need to stop looking at the ranger from such a narrow perspective. The ranger isn’t fine just because swords are competitive when nothing else is.

Bri.8354:

I agree that we need to stop generalizing the state of the class based on game variants, but I think we need to take it further than just that. The state of the ranger is also widely generalized based on a specific builds or weapons, not the overall state of the profession.

For instance, just because a single weapon or build is good, players will claim the ranger is good when in fact the class is broken overall, and only that single build is good.

I mean just look at dungeons. The ranger is nice with the well known sword/frost spirit/spotter combination, but what about the other utilities and weapons?

• MH axe is low tier.
• Longbow is low tier.
• Shortbow is low tier.
• Greatsword is low tier.
• Traps are low tier.
• Signets are low tier.
• Shouts are low tier.

We need to stop looking at the ranger from such a narrow perspective. The ranger isn’t fine just because swords are competitive when nothing else is.

But see, that’s only dungeons, and while I do agree with your evaluation of it, let’s look at a different example:

PvP:

• MH axe is top tier.
• Longbow is low tier.
• Shortbow is top tier.
• Greatsword is mid tier.
• Traps are mid tier.
• Signets are low tier.
• Shouts are low tier.

And then WvW:

Zerg:

• MH axe is mid tier.
• Longbow is top tier.
• Shortbow is low tier.
• Greatsword is mid tier.
• Traps are low tier.
• Signets are mid tier.
• Shouts are low tier.

Solo

• MH axe is top tier.
• Longbow is low tier.
• Shortbow is top tier.
• Greatsword is mid tier.
• Traps are mid tier.
• Signets are low tier.
• Shouts are low tier.

I mean, given that these are my opinions and a quick evaluation, what can we take away from averaging all of them together?

Well, the Shortbow and Mainhand Axe do have their uses, but are mostly used for condi builds, which in general are the more used in PvP/WvW and because there are more game modes with player opponents, it skews the results so that Mainhand Axe and Shortbow are top tier in more categories.

-Mainhand Axe and Shortbow are consistently better than the other options.
-Longbow is only good for zergs and outside of that it is a poor skirmishing weapon.
-Greatsword never has a top tier category, indicating it needs more changes that just ANet number tweaking Maul every patch.
-Traps are in the same boat, they are very outclassed by our offhand weapons, Sun Spirit outclasses Flame Trap, and in general, every other class can do what our traps can do and more with weapon skills and trait choices that are common selections for those classes
-Shouts are terrible. They need attention asap.

Just my take on it though, so really, just more things to discuss for everyone!

I still think to many ranger’s have the wrong idea of having one weapon, one build, one trait setup, for a meta that works EVERYWHERE…

The game is just NOT set up that way. Don’t look for a meta. Don’t even try to come down that there’s some mystical Meta Holy Grail for rangers.

What will work in PvE, will not necessarily work in Pvp. What will work in Pvp will not work in Spvp. What will work in Spvp will not work in WvW. And even in Wvw, what will work in Solo WvW will not work in Zerg WvW.

A ranger needs to get out of that train of thought. We do not have Meta’s. We do not have one armor, one rune, one sigil, one type of weapon that is going to make us the right hand of GOD in this game.

I tell people…let me rephrase that, I ARGUE with people that if their running in a zerg, then they need to be running zerg skills. Is your Troll Ungent going to help a zerg? No. It’s going to help YOU! What will help a Zerg in WvW? Healing Spring. And you won’t even get an ARGUEMENT with a zerg on Healing Spring. If you run in Zerg, do you think that Sword/dagger is going to help the group? No, your doing 1 vs 1. But in zerg, you use Barrage, your hitting multiple targets. Add condition damage to that barrage, and your helping the zerg, not just yourself.

You want to roam, you can run Troll Ungent, and all those 1 vs 1 skills. You run zerg, you run skills that buff your team, or condition damages, or damages overall multiple foes. What works for roamers, will not work in a zerg. What works in a zerg, isn’t going to necessarily work for roamers.

As for PvP, the only thing that rangers focus on is DPS. Which means the pumping out a massive amount of damage in a short time span on one target. If your in PvP oriented, you might think that’s great, and you’ll use your setup as a roamer in WvW. Well if your roaming are you going to focus on speed or damage. Roamers need to get in, and get out if their heading to deal with camps or sentries.

In other words, the Ranger is VERSATILE. We can do ANYTHING in the game. We just can’t do EVERYTHING with a single armor/build/sigil/weapon. And that’s what everyone is having a hard time with.

Everyone is looking for a Meta. One armor. One rune. One sigil. One weapon. One trait setup. And there isn’t one.

A ranger’s failure is, we can do so much, that we get pulled in four different directions on how best to do it ALL. Once a player realizes this then they move onto the next question.

“How do I like to play the game?” THAT, is where your going to be the most. And where are you the most? Exploring? Farming? Player vs. Player? Large World vs. World battles?

Don’t focus on the meta. You’ll just be blinded, confused, torn, because you want to do it all, and you can’t have it all. That’s our failure. It’s not a failure in the class, it’s a failure of a player to realize that, just because you can have the cake, doesn’t mean you can eat it also.

jcbroe.4329:

snip

As clarification, I was only giving dungeons as an example of people generalizing the class and I didn’t go into the other game variants because I felt It was enough to make my point.

Also, the MH axe and shortbow could probably be split into different groups as they are both “hybrid” weapons that are commonly used in both power and condition builds and their strength in each type of build depends on the game variant. For instance, a power build with axe/axe is stronger than a condition build with axe/torch in PvE.

Bri.8354:

jcbroe.4329:

snip

As clarification, I was only giving dungeons as an example of people generalizing the class and I didn’t go into the other game variants because I felt It was enough to make my point.

Also, the MH axe and shortbow could probably be split into different groups as they are both “hybrid” weapons that are commonly used in both power and condition builds and their strength in each type of build depends on the game variant. For instance, a power build with axe/axe is stronger than a condition build with axe/torch in PvE.

No I know, it was just clarification to keep the topic flowing, not really directed at or trying to argue with you or anything.

You brought up the good point of evaluating items on a less broad level, and I wanted to participate in the idea of doing so is all haha.

It’s funny. The people that argue the most about having a Ranger in a dungeon group is either going to be a Warrior, or a Guardian. Oh sure, you can have an Ele in a dungeon, but they have to run Healing Rain to keep the Warrior or Guardian alive when their toe to toe vs. the boss. Sure, have a Mesmer in the group, and their illusions become Martyrs and suicide bombers.

The only reason Warriors and Guardians kitten on Rangers is that every kitten class has something that will help buff a Warrior or Guardian in combat. Except for Ranger. We have maybe a couple of pets with buffs, and Healing Spring. But we have to be sitting right up there with that assed Warrior or Guardian with the Healing Spring to be considered FULLY effective. Because we’re supposed to BUFF the stupid ignorant bashers in toe to toe combat.

I don’t know how many dungeon groups I been in, where the individual in charge has already layed out the “plan of attack”, has handed out the “assignments”, and “ordered” certain builds to be used…just for one dungeon. All in the name of expediency. I’ve been asked, or told, to “reroll”, and nearly 99% I’ve refused. There’s only 1% of circumstances where I will reroll. Either for my friends, or for my guild. The rest of you have two options when it comes to rangers in dungeons. Either deal with it, or don’t bother adding us. Your loss if you can’t figure out a way to integrate a ranger into your select little assault group.

I’ve done dungeons where I’ve stood side by side with warriors. I’ve run from one player to the next in support. I’ve lured or disrupted enemy attacks, giving others in the group breathing room to maneuver, refresh, or regenerate. Like I stated before in other parts of the Ranger forum, a ranger is there for the group. We are not there just for a single warrior or guardian who believes all the heals and buffs belong on them only, to make themselves look good. And sorry to say, we weren’t built as a buff support just for one guy with an attitude problem towards medium classes.

Warriors and guardians in dungeons are nothing more than glass cannons, crying that it’s everyone elses fault that their dead, and the ranger takes the brunt of that because we have so few GROUP support skills/traits.

KeyOrion, what the meta essentially is, is what’s most effective, or at least what players believe is most effective. It exists for every profession and game variant, ranger included.

I’m sure a lot of people often ignore it, myself included, because they value what’s more enjoyable to them over the most effective way to play the game. However this does not make the game balanced or the meta non-existent.

Having a meta isn’t a problem; the problem is when the gap between the meta and alternative play-styles is too large. This is a problem we are seeing and why the games balance is such a disaster.

As it stand right now players are kicked for simply being certain profession and many professions only have a few competitive builds. This needs to change. The developers need to work to shorten this gap so that all professions are welcome in every aspect of the game, each with a healthy selection of competitive builds.

For zerging in large groups I would say we have a build that is certainly at par (not the top tier). Outside spirits, you are in the bottom tier.

I don’t know that a spirit healing build in zergs is bad at all. You have a spec where you can swap out traits fast for almost any fight.

1. You get a large regen from nature’s voice for mobile fights. You will tend to have more duration and more healing power than others.

2. You have HS for lots of blast healing and condition removal which isn’t bad. Best water field in game. HS can make a push.

3. You provide good AE might (blasting thru a fire field, stalker, the horn, altruism runes especially with that lovely spirit heal).

You have 2 AE pet shouts/supports. Just take a stalker for might (long big might) and then you can do condition removal bear, fury moa, healing hound etc. Not superlative save the stalker if you don’t have time to might up thru fire field blasts but still can be quite nice esp condition removal.

4. You have an excellent spirit heal (combine with nature’s voice for the regen) that burst heals (done well) more than almost any other AE heal. Note, you use this in mobile fights where you aren’t running to the front line and that water field won’t get a lot of blasts. I could spend all day going over when you want one over the other. Key is you can swap them so fast!

a. You get regen (over 300 hps)/on hit heal (think group mango pie)/1930 fast heal (again for group so not bad at all). There are very few group AE heals and fewer still that heal on a 25 sec timer.

5. Don’t forget about spirits in general. They excel in zergs if you know how to call them just in time and keep them alive.

A couple of keys:

1) You can’t run with spirits v call them when you need them in a zerg or they can die.

2) They are great for their CC effects in choke points. A 5 second chill is a long darn chill. And you typically will play them with the larger radius and proc on death which done well in zergs doubles up the cc (in big fights they last long enough to proc actively then die and proc again). Too often people don’t use spirits well for their CC which is rather long. 2 sec immobilize/5 sec chill/AE blind. That is a powerful set of abilities frankly.

3) You generally can run 3 in organized play because there always is plenty of regeneration (no need for nature’s voice) and plenty of swiftness.

4) When there is a backline, the spirits generally stay out of harm’s way (depends on server) and do provide range with nice burning and damage reduction buffs (which believe me can be critical in getting thru siege damage on a push for lightly armored allies. In a zerg, the +10% damage buff can be better than protection depending on if you have a blob or multiple lines.

5) Your Elite Spirit is another source of high hps.

a. Remember they put the proc on the closest allies so backline support it is.

You can do some damage (not that much) but hey you really do add a lot of large regen/protection/big heals or big water fields. Etc.

@KeyOrion;

I’m not sure what you’re talking about exactly as this is neither a thread asking for builds to be more like “swiss army knives” so that they can accommodate all situations, nor is it a thread trying to debunk the effectiveness of rangers in a dungeon and the perceptions that follow the situation.

I totally get what you’re expressing though, which is basically saying that balance isn’t achieved by giving one setup all the tools to be effective in every game mode, and that people largely mistake perception for fact.

However, this thread is merely to have an open conversation about how the ranger is balanced against itself (evaluating our own options against each other) and against other classes, and what changes, if any, should be made moving forward.

Ideally, there are 8 professions and only 5 slots for a teams composition, so every option in combat that every class has access to should either perform some unique function, or perform some shared function that is equal in overall output with the other class(es) it shares that function with, while outside of that shared function, still having access to the unique functions that the respective classes use.

Traps, for instance, are not balanced well against options that Necromancers and Engineers have access to, but those classes not only have easier access to them, but their options require less build investment with equal or greater output, while still allowing them more opportunity to build for other options in their setup than what rangers have access to.

That’s just one example, but there are others out there. Mostly, this is just a thread for collecting other ranger players opinions on the state of the balance into one discussion, then ironing it out until we can get a basic list of balance changes that would improve perceived lacking performance in all game modes, that can then be transferred to the balance subforum when it opens up, in order to hopefully incite an open conversation with the devs to see if they are agreeable with where the ranger community sees themselves in a balance perspective.

Bri.8354:

KeyOrion, what the meta essentially is, is what’s most effective, or at least what players believe is most effective. It exists for every profession and game variant, ranger included.

I’m sure a lot of people often ignore it, myself included, because they value what’s more enjoyable to them over the most effective way to play the game. However this does not make the game balanced or the meta non-existent.

Having a meta isn’t a problem; the problem is when the gap between the meta and alternative play-styles is too large. This is a problem we are seeing and why the games balance is such a disaster.

As it stand right now players are kicked for simply being certain profession and many professions only have a few competitive builds. This needs to change. The developers need to work to shorten this gap so that all professions are welcome in every aspect of the game, each with a healthy selection of competitive builds.

The different play styles is the thing. What everyone wants is to use just one build. One armor. One sigil. One trait. There’s something that works in a dungeon, but not in World vs. World. There’s something that will work in Player vs. Environment, but not in Player vs. Player.

Those that roll a ranger, but don’t stick with a ranger, get most of their info from just doing one thing. I’ve done dungeons, I’ve done PvE, and done a hell of a lot of World vs. World. I have two armor sets. One for PvE. the other for WvW. Why? Because my PvE armor is garbage in World vs. World. My PvE armor is paper in World vs. World. Ranger’s want their armor to work everywhere. They want an armor that will work in PvE, PvP and WvW EQUALLY. Unfortunately, all the other professions run certain builds that can take on one, but not the other. My PvE armor sucks against thieves, warriors, guardians. My WvW armor however gives me some additional damage and allows me to stay in the fight longer. I’ve ran straight THROUGH entire zerg’s with my WvW and LIVED. Sometimes, I’d run back through the same kitten zerg, two more times. I try that with my PvE armor, I don’t even get past the first wall of enemy troops. However, I use my WvW armor in dungeons, I have a slight drop in my health and die quicker, whereas my PvE armor will allow me to be the Last Man Standing.

A ranger is a Jack-Of-All-Trades. We got the ability to use Long and short bows, plus hand to hand weaponry. We need to focus on other weapons than just bows when it comes to toe to toe combat. We’re kitten ed on in dungeons because we don’t have a great variety of team BUFFS/HEALS. Our DPS is directly related to what armor runes we wear and what sigil and skills we use.

In fact, the only REASON why we aren’t added into groups, or kicked out of groups is directly in relation TO OUR DPS! Damage Per Second? Our ability to be ALLOWED to join a party is by the equation of our armor/traits/sigils/buffs, in order to produce the highest amount of damage within seconds.

Is that the Ranger’s fault? Is that the fault of the class? Is it the fault of the player?

No. That’s the fault of the kittens putting together the group in the first place. If the only thing they look at is the DPS, and not just having a good time for all involved, then it’s a kitten poor group to begin with. Screw them! WE chose the class that best suited our playing style. A player who chose warrior, chose warrior for the style of play. A player who chose Mesmer, chose the Mesmer for the style of play.

Just as a player who chose Ranger, chose ranger for the style of play. Should we be expelled or expunged because we chose a class that someone else doesn’t like? Probably not, but that’s not the ranger’s fault. That’s the fault of the group that keeps us at arms length, because it doesn’t serve expediency of the mission and some other player’s enjoyment of the game.

Could we please try to remain on topic?

Thank you

Great thread. I think a lot of problems are due to the reliance on EB, and a lack of aoe options.

EB is a great condition removal but how can we run anything without it, particularly when it is in the toughness line.

In fact the entire wilderness survival line is so necessary for staying alive, it stops us from traiting for more direction damage.

And our only decent aoe comes from either traps or piercing arrows, both of which require significant trait investment.

Apart from these the fragility of pets/spirits in zergs is a fundamental problem. I am leaning towards invulnerability/damage nerfs to fix this issue.

@jcbroe
I disagree with your rating of GS in zergs. It is a very good weapon for front line zerging as the evade in the AA chain and maul are very effective in both keeping you alive and spiking down enemies while you run through the enemy zerg. The weapon may be aimed towards defense, but it’s offensive capabilities in zergs are high.
Longbow’s should be mid tier in dungeons, they are handy in chokepoints with loads of NPC’s rushing you. AE cripple is not to be underestimated in places like Arah.

Sube Dai.8496:

Great thread. I think a lot of problems are due to the reliance on EB, and a lack of aoe options.

EB is a great condition removal but how can we run anything without it, particularly when it is in the toughness line.

In fact the entire wilderness survival line is so necessary for staying alive, it stops us from traiting for more direction damage.

And our only decent aoe comes from either traps or piercing arrows, both of which require significant trait investment.

Apart from these the fragility of pets/spirits in zergs is a fundamental problem. I am leaning towards invulnerability/damage nerfs to fix this issue.

My current build is 10/0/0/30/30. I do not run EB, i do not run 25% passive endurance regen, i do not run vigor on heal, don’t use oakheart salve and still, my build works fine. The “dependancy” on EB is overhyped. You can do great without, however you must find other sources of condition removal. My choice was to use a bear and sigil of renewal. While the sigil does the same function as EB, just a bit weaker, it allows me to cleanse many conditions fast as i can just use my bear as a sponge.
I also use Natures Voice to grant me enough passive heal to ignore the effects of conditions.

Prysin.8542:

I also use Natures Voice to grant me enough passive heal to ignore the effects of conditions.

in which world ? Oo

dungeons no range weapon on the ranger is mid or higher tear..

same for zerk, in my opinon the gs is high and the lb mid

Bambula.3649:

Prysin.8542:

I also use Natures Voice to grant me enough passive heal to ignore the effects of conditions.

in which world ? Oo

World vs World vs World

Prysin and I have argued this before, but since that’s kind of the point of the thread, I’ll bring it up again. While he’s right in the fact that greatsword makes a great frontline weapon because of the evade on every third swing, what exactly is the class actually providing in that front line role with the greatsword?

That’s my complaint with a lot of the discussions going around on this forum and others. While the class certainly isn’t useless as a front line fighter using a greatsword, is it useful? Is it providing something to the front line other than a warm body to soak AE? In all reality, it’s not.

Choices are quite limited as a front line fighter… spirits and pets are a bust as they’ll be obliterated instantly from random AE. As silly as it sounds, running a regen build is probably a bust because you’ll likely not find 1 second to cast your shout. Traps might work, but they’re really not that great at what they provide. Especially in the current WvW meta with perma stability and condi clear. Heck, you almost want to run Troll Ungeant just so you can stay standing which removes one of the few pieces of utility this class is still known for.

This really goes back to the root of the problem with this class. What does this class actually do in group fights? The few niche roles this class actually excells at are all dominated by other classes and most of them aren’t even group friendly in WvW (pets, spirits, condis).

My concern is that simply shuffling traits and playing with numbers isn’t enough to ensure this class actually becomes a meaningful member of the WvW meta.

My counter argument to Ather has and always will be, that it is better to be left standing alive, even if your whole zerg is wiped. The shout regen is not an issue as the shouts are pretty quick to cast.

I can agree with Ather that our zerg support is somewhat limited, but it is there. It depends how you wish to play. Personally, i have found both spirits and shouts to work really well. The new water spirit is mediocre, but it is not useless. It proved useful more then once when we were in SM fighting on walls, where i and several other rangers ran below the walls covering the zerg’s on-top with AOE.

Perhaps our two strongest utilities, Entangle and Muddy Terrain could use some work/buffs. Preferably they should hit more target, especially entangle, but both of these are still very valuable in their ability to pin down and temporarily reduce their movement.

Pets are not to be underestimated in WvW. However as it currently stands, they are restricted by the players skill and their own handicapped mechanics. Pets should, if nothing else, recieve the same HP buff as PvE and an additional 20% condition duration buff to make them viable. Raw DPS wise, they are fine.

I also think ranger needs another mainhand 1-hand weapon. One that is purely focused on conditions. As it currently stands, the sword and axe are both good weapons, but they are hybrids.
I would love to see a AOE condition mainhand, perhaps a AOE group support?
Shield? With something along the line of AOE retal, protection and knockback. Increased tanking but slow attacks/channeling? Something interesting and un-predictable would be nice.

Prysin.8542:

My counter argument to Ather has and always will be, that it is better to be left standing alive, even if your whole zerg is wiped. The shout regen is not an issue as the shouts are pretty quick to cast.

I can agree with Ather that our zerg support is somewhat limited, but it is there. It depends how you wish to play. Personally, i have found both spirits and shouts to work really well.

What tier are you in? For t3 and above, much of what you claim works doesn’t work at all (the idea of using spirits for zerg fights, for instance, is outright unhinged). For organized/guild zergs, ranger regeneration is redundant at best and useless at worst – virtue guardians alone can maintain 100% uptime on regeneration. And warriors and guardians aren’t made of tissue paper; a properly geared heavy is going to outlast any ranger in a frontline zerg fight. Elsewhere you’ve also championed HS as some kind of amazing group support because of its duration, but the duration isn’t especially beneficial in zerg fights because you’re never stationary for longer than a 3-4 second regroup of water fields and blast finishers – the extended duration goes unused.

For some unknown reason you seem to think that ranger’s regeneration equates to their superior longevity, but other classes also come equipped with various sources of regeneration, in addition to other shinier support tools. And contrary to what you say, it’s not exactly “better to be left standing alive, even if your whole zerg is wiped” because the entire point of gearing and building for zerg fights is to ensure the success of your group. Ranger’s simply don’t have the tools to adequately fulfill that purpose.

Bri.8354:

KeyOrion, what the meta essentially is, is what’s most effective, or at least what players believe is most effective. It exists for every profession and game variant, ranger included.

I’m sure a lot of people often ignore it, myself included, because they value what’s more enjoyable to them over the most effective way to play the game. However this does not make the game balanced or the meta non-existent.

Having a meta isn’t a problem; the problem is when the gap between the meta and alternative play-styles is too large. This is a problem we are seeing and why the games balance is such a disaster.

As it stand right now players are kicked for simply being certain profession and many professions only have a few competitive builds. This needs to change. The developers need to work to shorten this gap so that all professions are welcome in every aspect of the game, each with a healthy selection of competitive builds.

I like the way you think. That’s the problem with a lot of the non optimized builds really; they get pushed under the rug because they simply can’t compete, or bring so little value extra offerings that it’s deem a non-worthwhile route to take.

A lot of the balance happens around viewing these great specialized builds and comparing them only to what they are best at with no concern of how other interactions might take place. Just look at sword ranger power builds in PvE and spirit builds in SPvP.

I feel that might be a non-fixable problem that they have created due to how rigid their combat and weapon systems are. Each weapon will work at its peak with only a few traits and utilities, while in other modes what you are left with is being forced into either respecing or an unoptimized role.

Not that specialization is a bad thing, that’s inevitably at the core of GW2, but it becomes a problem when you view builds only on the grounds of what they perform best at. This thought process has made it ok to say in the face of disparity that, “we’ll at least you have this” and that is no way to achieve overall balance. They view only the top performers in each category and separate them from the rest, and when they fix them they don’t view the impact that it has until later, or not at all. Look at quickness nerfs in pvp as an example.

The squeaky wheel is not the only one that gets the grease. They grease the entire system, while a broken wheel is still broken.

xev.9476:

Prysin.8542:

My counter argument to Ather has and always will be, that it is better to be left standing alive, even if your whole zerg is wiped. The shout regen is not an issue as the shouts are pretty quick to cast.

I can agree with Ather that our zerg support is somewhat limited, but it is there. It depends how you wish to play. Personally, i have found both spirits and shouts to work really well.

What tier are you in? For t3 and above, much of what you claim works doesn’t work at all (the idea of using spirits for zerg fights, for instance, is outright unhinged). For organized/guild zergs, ranger regeneration is redundant at best and useless at worst – virtue guardians alone can maintain 100% uptime on regeneration. And warriors and guardians aren’t made of tissue paper; a properly geared heavy is going to outlast any ranger in a frontline zerg fight. Elsewhere you’ve also championed HS as some kind of amazing group support because of its duration, but the duration isn’t especially beneficial in zerg fights because you’re never stationary for longer than a 3-4 second regroup of water fields and blast finishers – the extended duration goes unused.

For some unknown reason you seem to think that ranger’s regeneration equates to their superior longevity, but other classes also come equipped with various sources of regeneration, in addition to other shinier support tools. And contrary to what you say, it’s not exactly “better to be left standing alive, even if your whole zerg is wiped” because the entire point of gearing and building for zerg fights is to ensure the success of your group. Ranger’s simply don’t have the tools to adequately fulfill that purpose.

The long duration of the waterfield allows it to be blasted many times over, contrary to that of an ele’s fields. It also cleanses conditions, ALSO not provided by an ele’s fields. It also has a mere 30 second CD, shorter then healing rain.

The ultimate defense is a strong offense, however if you fight an opponent of equal or greater strength the ultimate defense is simply resilience. It is better to outlast everything, tank through and do 50% damage compared to the rest, then do the same damage and rallybotting on the first push.

Xev, not to be overly rude, but either you have no clue what a ranger can or cannot do, or you simply haven’t played as much WvW as me.

Edit: My server, Desolation, is a former T1 server. It lost many guilds pre-leagues and dropped to T4. However my builds and tactics has been the same as when we were fighting Vizunah and SFR around summer/early autumn. As for Vizunah, the only US server that i have seen show similar strength is Blackgate. So yes, i do know the limitations of my build.

Today, i started experimenting with adding Dire instead of PVT for solo roaming, and use PVT for zerging, i can tell you it was an success. While it may seem strange to mix clerics and dire. The DPS isn’t that half bad. I get decent condition damage (poison, burn, bleed) along with strong direct damage.

This goes to show, that experimenting with the unknown may pay off better then first predicted. I expect there to be many more weird build combinations out there that have yet to see the light of day.
It is simply too early to Q-Q about this profession, when all builds have yet to be discovered and tested

But he is right..you dont need long water fields you just need them often

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Geyser
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Rain
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Spring
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Burst

Comparing these;
Geyser lasts merely 2 seconds. Much too short for anyone to respond to it and blast it. The direct heal is also weak
Healing Rain lasts for 6 seconds, but it grants regeneration, and not direct heal however it is large and thus easy to blast. The cast time is long and easily interrupted. The cooldown is far too long. Only cleanses 2-3 conditions for the whole duration.
Healing Spring lasts for 10 seconds, it grants a powerful direct heal which scales directly with healing power (4920+ 1xhealing power). It also grants regeneration and cleanses up to 5 conditions. Through traits it will give vigor upon cast. Cast time is close to instant, making interruption very hard. It’s main downside is that it is pbaoe.
Cleansing Burst lasts 3 seconds, is not instant but has a very low cooldown. It is governed by an AI, and is thus not completely foolproof.

There is no waterfield that is better then healing spring. They all have downsides to them, as well as upsides. However none of them have more advantages and fever dis-advantages then Healing Spring.

Back to topic;
GS #4 should have its “KB” effect changed to a “cone AE cleave KB”. Brutally swinging the blade around to knock foes away. The current “kick” is not as functional, not effective as seemingly intended.

And then you realize that HS is our heal skill whereas Geyser and Healing Rain are weapon skills. Which tips the balance in their favor as better water fields. 2 seconds is plenty of time for a coordinated group to blast in. Healing spring will likely only cleanse 2-3 conditions as a group will probably not stack for more than 6 seconds midfight, and of course you have to give up your heal for the water field. Furthermore, HS is only a direct heal for you and your pet.

Imo Geyser and Healing Rain>HS easily as water fields since they are designed to be support skills. HS on the other hand is designed to be a strong heal allowing us to hold ground with Ranger’s heavy reliance on dodges, evades, block, leaps since we can stay in or near the spring and receive its full benefits.

[quote=3416406;Prysin.8542:]

Comparing these;
Healing Spring lasts for 10 seconds, it grants a powerful direct heal which scales directly with healing power (4920+ 1xhealing power). It also grants regeneration and cleanses up to 5 conditions. Through traits it will give vigor upon cast. Cast time is close to instant, making interruption very hard. It’s main downside is that it is pbaoe.
Cleansing Burst lasts 3 seconds, is not instant but has a very low cooldown. It is governed by an AI, and is thus not completely foolproof.

There is no waterfield that is better then healing spring. They all have downsides to them, as well as upsides. However none of them have more advantages and fever dis-advantages then Healing Spring.

• Couple of things*

HS is excellent but there are advantages to HT which makes it a clear second best and almost the same value skill.

1. HT provides a regen for a long time THEN you call the water field as you need it. HS often requires you to decide to save the burst heal or drop it a bit early for the regen/clean.

2. HT has significantly bigger radius on a much shorter cool down. That is it’s key advantage.

3. HT also has Healing Mist which is a huge radius. While often too fast for PUGs, a coordinated group (and engie) can get a single blast per user off with it.

Generally, I would say HT beats HS the better the group is. HS is much easier though.

Mcrocha.3891:

And then you realize that HS is our heal skill whereas Geyser and Healing Rain are weapon skills. Which tips the balance in their favor as better water fields. 2 seconds is plenty of time for a coordinated group to blast in. Healing spring will likely only cleanse 2-3 conditions as a group will probably not stack for more than 6 seconds midfight, and of course you have to give up your heal for the water field. Furthermore, HS is only a direct heal for you and your pet.

Imo Geyser and Healing Rain>HS easily as water fields since they are designed to be support skills. HS on the other hand is designed to be a strong heal allowing us to hold ground with Ranger’s heavy reliance on dodges, evades, block, leaps since we can stay in or near the spring and receive its full benefits.

People are not machines. One can not expect everyone in a 40-60 man blob to make it to benefit from 2 seconds of waterfield is… extremely optimistic at best. A zerg isn’t the same as a organized 20 man group.

Prysin.8542:

Mcrocha.3891:

And then you realize that HS is our heal skill whereas Geyser and Healing Rain are weapon skills. Which tips the balance in their favor as better water fields. 2 seconds is plenty of time for a coordinated group to blast in. Healing spring will likely only cleanse 2-3 conditions as a group will probably not stack for more than 6 seconds midfight, and of course you have to give up your heal for the water field. Furthermore, HS is only a direct heal for you and your pet.

Imo Geyser and Healing Rain>HS easily as water fields since they are designed to be support skills. HS on the other hand is designed to be a strong heal allowing us to hold ground with Ranger’s heavy reliance on dodges, evades, block, leaps since we can stay in or near the spring and receive its full benefits.

People are not machines. One can not expect everyone in a 40-60 man blob to make it to benefit from 2 seconds of waterfield is… extremely optimistic at best. A zerg isn’t the same as a organized 20 man group.

40-60 man “blobs” have cores of organized guild groups of anywhere from 20-30 people usually. I don’t expect pugs to ever benefit from a waterfield or any field for that matter unless they are on ts and know how to follow a commander. How is it not extremely optimistic to expect any pugs to utilize your healing spring either? If anything they are more likely to accidentally blast or leap in Healing Rain not HS as it has a larger radius and can be cast from range.

I still think a number of ranger players are in denial about the state of ranger balance wise. Sure the sword is the best personal DPS but its hard to use and takes a lot of practice to get good at so you get that DPS. And sure the spirit build is a decent build to use pvp.

But as soon as you use another class it becomes apparent that the ranger just doesn’t cut the mustard. Utility skills that have less buffs, take longer to cooldown and that only synergies with the pet rather than other players are a major detriment to the class. As is its horrible traits that are badly placed and in serious need of a rework and merging.

Dont get me wrong here I main a ranger and its my fav and most used character. Compared to all my other characters though, it feels like I have to work three times harder to try and be on par with any other class.

The pet mechanics stink, the system is easily the worst class mechanic in the game and one that simply does not work properly.

Imo the class doesn’t need a balance pass, it needs a near total reworking from the ground up to bring it in line with other classes.