Guild Wars 2

I don’t know enough about the other classes to know, but does every other class’s utilities require 30 points in a trait line to be effective? IE. Spirits and shouts nm, traps skirmishing, and signets in marks…?

nope. They dont. Although in some cases other professions do have traits that give similar benefits to Natures voice.

But in the case of Signet of the Beastmaster, they have nothing similar.

^What Prysin said

Most class utilties do their basic function well straight off the bat, and you trait to lower the cooldown and give them extra functions ontop of the basic ones.

We arent the only class with skills which require heavy investment, but we are certainly the class with the most. I think only our Survival skills are good “out of the box” with no traiting.

yeah, pretty much.

We used to have 1 good shout, before they nerfed Search and Rescue.

Note that in your statement, you’re talking mostly about condition builds.
They’ve been always fine for Ranger. Traps are still useful, just not as popular and braindead as spirits are. Spirits are another condition based build, working pretty well. When we talk about BM Bunker…well.. that build back in the days could roll either with condition or power, both were okay, the core was the pet anyway, unaffected by your stat choices.
Most of PvE is another braindead aspect. You can roll with a Longbow or Greatsword in zerg because there’s no need for skilled gameplay or such. It’s easy, low risk and low damage, but you still have your tags and everything seems okay. Dungeons are just simply another meta, where you spec for maximum power damage and avoid occasional red circles when speedrunning for rewards. I mean, every class can spec in some way to deal nice power damage and be okay in dungeons, this aspect of the game tells nothing about Ranger as a class and mechanic itself.
Place where you can judge class design and gameplay is PvP. Either solo/small roaming in WvWvW against other roamers (not zerglings) or tPvP.
In both places, condition spec ranger is okay. You can use MH Axe, Shortbow, Sword, Dagger, Torch. The End. All of these are good when you play conditions and have good, useful 1 or 3 skills. Other weapons and all power options are crap. They lack basic utility, tend to have no damage at all.
The thing is, condition ranger works cool because conditions scale like for other professions. In this scenario, having a pet is a cool thing, because it doesn’t handicap player damage. If you go power, not only weapon choices are very bad and tend to not synergize at all (coolest example is Longbow. Let me quickly describe this weapon for you:
-In theory, it was a sniper weapon, that’s why it has long range and long range shot design. But it’s laughable in concept because: Who would be ever afraid or Snipers in real life if they were shooting gum balls at their targets? Because that’s how current Longbow works. It has no reward for keeping distance, apart from distance itself which means NOTHING in current game design. Obviously weapon made for kite has no basic kite tools at all. Hell, only cripple requires you to be stationary, cast it for a long time, has long cooldown and does no damage. Other examples? Sure! Rapid Fire, Hunter’s Shot, Auto Attack, PB Shot. They’re all wasted slots. If target gets closer to you than 300 units, you’ll break every single one of these skills when trying to kite. Instead, you have to turn face to face to your enemy, what takes hell lot of time, start freaking BACKPADDLING, pray your enemy is stupid enough to not simply evade/dodge/block/LoS or go on your side to break the skill anyway, wait till whole animation and aftercast is finished. Then, finally, you can enjoy the fact that your weapon skill actually DID work anyway. In process, you’ve lost your whole distance, you’re probably slowed and lost about 1/3 of your hp. But hey! You’ve shaved 20% of your target’s health over 5 seconds or got a quick KB/Stealth which will allow you to do…erm…nothing? Because the foe will be back on you within 2 seconds? -.-)
And Your Pet halves your damage.
Essentialy “Go Condi or GTFO”

Cufufalating.8479:

^What Prysin said

Most class utilties do their basic function well straight off the bat, and you trait to lower the cooldown and give them extra functions ontop of the basic ones.

We arent the only class with skills which require heavy investment, but we are certainly the class with the most. I think only our Survival skills are good “out of the box” with no traiting.

Who else requires heavy investment? The only one I can think of who can even invest as heavily into traits as we do would be eles for arcane skills, and engis, and even then NONE of those are needed to make the thing useable and bring it “up to par” they just make them into absolutely amazing utilities…

Most utilities you drop 20pts and you’re about out of stuff you can get for the utility, the rest just sorta combo off things traits do for utility IE glamour causes blinds, and Blinds cause confusion.

Trouble as Durz points out is that the ranger is almost required to trait high to “cover” deficiencies in either weapon design (high marksmanship) or survivorability (needing empathic bond).

Likewise, I would add, that we have more “to cover” with traits because that is how you improve pets too.

Together this is the greatest problem. A trait simplification/consolidation would be most appreciated. Some things which are traits really could be inherent in weapons (e.g. pierce on ranger bows) or bundled (several of the marksmanship traits) or more accessible (empathic bond or a less effective alternative in another line).

Durzlla.6295:

Cufufalating.8479:

^What Prysin said

Most class utilties do their basic function well straight off the bat, and you trait to lower the cooldown and give them extra functions ontop of the basic ones.

We arent the only class with skills which require heavy investment, but we are certainly the class with the most. I think only our Survival skills are good “out of the box” with no traiting.

Who else requires heavy investment? The only one I can think of who can even invest as heavily into traits as we do would be eles for arcane skills, and engis, and even then NONE of those are needed to make the thing useable and bring it “up to par” they just make them into absolutely amazing utilities…

Most utilities you drop 20pts and you’re about out of stuff you can get for the utility, the rest just sorta combo off things traits do for utility IE glamour causes blinds, and Blinds cause confusion.

Guess it depends slightly on what you consider “nessesary” for a skill to be good.. For me though the only other classes I have to 80 are thief, guardian and (nearly) mesmer, and from those I would say thief Vemons are not very good without sharing, and mesmer mantras are not very good without at least traiting them to have 3 uses instead of 2.

For Engie, you can’t have a might build really without HGH (grandmaster trait) but you can run lots of other builds

You typically either need 20 pts in alchemy for backpack regen or 30 in inventions for elixir infused bombs for secondary healing but each line is significantly valuable otherwise and you have a choice of two

You also almost always see 10 pts in Tools for your swiftness which is a pain but at least only requires 10 pts.

Bombsaway.7198:

For Engie, you can’t have a might build really without HGH (grandmaster trait) but you can run lots of other builds

You typically either need 20 pts in alchemy for backpack regen or 30 in inventions for elixir infused bombs for secondary healing but each line is significantly valuable otherwise and you have a choice of two

You also almost always see 10 pts in Tools for your swiftness which is a pain but at least only requires 10 pts.

Yeah but saying you need HGH for a might build is like saying you need 30 skirmishing for a stunlock build, all you’re really after is that grandmaster trait, everything else is up to you.

Not to mention you can go with 0 pts in alchemy and your elixirs are still great utility skills, if you go 0 in NM or marks spirits and signets (respectively) are kitten, and if you go 0 in skirm traps are -ok- at best.

Cufufalating.8479:

Durzlla.6295:

Cufufalating.8479:

^What Prysin said

Most class utilties do their basic function well straight off the bat, and you trait to lower the cooldown and give them extra functions ontop of the basic ones.

We arent the only class with skills which require heavy investment, but we are certainly the class with the most. I think only our Survival skills are good “out of the box” with no traiting.

Who else requires heavy investment? The only one I can think of who can even invest as heavily into traits as we do would be eles for arcane skills, and engis, and even then NONE of those are needed to make the thing useable and bring it “up to par” they just make them into absolutely amazing utilities…

Most utilities you drop 20pts and you’re about out of stuff you can get for the utility, the rest just sorta combo off things traits do for utility IE glamour causes blinds, and Blinds cause confusion.

Guess it depends slightly on what you consider “nessesary” for a skill to be good.. For me though the only other classes I have to 80 are thief, guardian and (nearly) mesmer, and from those I would say thief Vemons are not very good without sharing, and mesmer mantras are not very good without at least traiting them to have 3 uses instead of 2.

I’d argue venoms are strong without the 30, but they become absolutely amazing WITH the sharing and if you’re gonna take more than 1 or 2 venoms there’s no reason not to take it!

A lot of what we’re saying, and what I most definitely agree with is that due to the sheer number and cost of major role defining traits, we are limited in our ability to spec into complementary traits, forcing our playstyle to be very rigid. Combined with underperforming weapon sets and utilities such as shouts and signet passives/cooldowns, we have a class that performs well in only very specialized roles; something that the ranger should not be.

By opening up access to on demand cleansing, improving underperfoming weapon sets, and re-evaluating the cost/placement of major traits that are indeed a necessity, we’d hope to see some improvement.

Pet/Spirit reliance would majorly be solved if ANet would consider such companions when actually designing content, and moving away from such a pro pet/spirit stance for players in general.

I still think Vigorous spirits should be completely trashed as a trait, tie the increased health into spirits unbound and make the spirits have 70% chance baseline, that’d at least open that utility for the rest of the builds out there, although it’d be immobile and more placement dependent than a spirit master build.

Bombsaway.7198:

Trouble as Durz points out is that the ranger is almost required to trait high to “cover” deficiencies in either weapon design (high marksmanship) or survivorability (needing empathic bond).

Likewise, I would add, that we have more “to cover” with traits because that is how you improve pets too.

Together this is the greatest problem. A trait simplification/consolidation would be most appreciated. Some things which are traits really could be inherent in weapons (e.g. pierce on ranger bows) or bundled (several of the marksmanship traits) or more accessible (empathic bond or a less effective alternative in another line).

Piercing arrows and SotBM could both be inherent and would not be OP IMO.

Durzlla.6295:

Cufufalating.8479:

Durzlla.6295:

Cufufalating.8479:

^What Prysin said

Most class utilties do their basic function well straight off the bat, and you trait to lower the cooldown and give them extra functions ontop of the basic ones.

We arent the only class with skills which require heavy investment, but we are certainly the class with the most. I think only our Survival skills are good “out of the box” with no traiting.

Who else requires heavy investment? The only one I can think of who can even invest as heavily into traits as we do would be eles for arcane skills, and engis, and even then NONE of those are needed to make the thing useable and bring it “up to par” they just make them into absolutely amazing utilities…

Most utilities you drop 20pts and you’re about out of stuff you can get for the utility, the rest just sorta combo off things traits do for utility IE glamour causes blinds, and Blinds cause confusion.

Guess it depends slightly on what you consider “nessesary” for a skill to be good.. For me though the only other classes I have to 80 are thief, guardian and (nearly) mesmer, and from those I would say thief Vemons are not very good without sharing, and mesmer mantras are not very good without at least traiting them to have 3 uses instead of 2.

I’d argue venoms are strong without the 30, but they become absolutely amazing WITH the sharing and if you’re gonna take more than 1 or 2 venoms there’s no reason not to take it!

Venoms are actually fairly strong without the Venom Traits.

For instance with a P/D spec you might use 1 or 2 of them depending on your setup.

What the Venom Traits do is make them incredibly powerful for group play. They make them actual Group utility.

That’s completely different from spirits or traps, which actually require 30 point investments to make them actually usable period.

Terravos.4059:

Durzlla.6295:

Cufufalating.8479:

Durzlla.6295:

Cufufalating.8479:

^What Prysin said

Most class utilties do their basic function well straight off the bat, and you trait to lower the cooldown and give them extra functions ontop of the basic ones.

We arent the only class with skills which require heavy investment, but we are certainly the class with the most. I think only our Survival skills are good “out of the box” with no traiting.

Who else requires heavy investment? The only one I can think of who can even invest as heavily into traits as we do would be eles for arcane skills, and engis, and even then NONE of those are needed to make the thing useable and bring it “up to par” they just make them into absolutely amazing utilities…

Most utilities you drop 20pts and you’re about out of stuff you can get for the utility, the rest just sorta combo off things traits do for utility IE glamour causes blinds, and Blinds cause confusion.

Guess it depends slightly on what you consider “nessesary” for a skill to be good.. For me though the only other classes I have to 80 are thief, guardian and (nearly) mesmer, and from those I would say thief Vemons are not very good without sharing, and mesmer mantras are not very good without at least traiting them to have 3 uses instead of 2.

I’d argue venoms are strong without the 30, but they become absolutely amazing WITH the sharing and if you’re gonna take more than 1 or 2 venoms there’s no reason not to take it!

Venoms are actually fairly strong without the Venom Traits.

For instance with a P/D spec you might use 1 or 2 of them depending on your setup.

What the Venom Traits do is make them incredibly powerful for group play. They make them actual Group utility.

That’s completely different from spirits or traps, which actually require 30 point investments to make them actually usable period.

Traps are useable (kittening barely) in PvP without traits, but it’s more of a “defensive” thing than anything IE: out trap down between you and enemy to detaunt Melee from coming close, or what I like to do, out a flame trap at my feet with my celestial build and wait for someone to “close the gap” on the “longbow” ranger then swap to axe/dagger and blow them up lol.

The “30 trait point or gtfo” investment issue we have with utilities is a very good discussion and is definitely going to get added to the summary the next time a summary post is needed.

Some thoughts on this design though (the 30 point one):

The two utilities we have the least need for 30 trait point investment are Shouts and Survival skills. The problem with each of these is that for shouts, the functionality of them doesn’t even warrant enough functionality to be able to build around. Each shout is very poor on its own, and all a 30 point investment does is add AoE swiftness and regen application, which is only useful for using Guard to apply 100% uptime on those boons, while Guard itself really isn’t even a good skill, and is being used only for Nature’s Voice.

For Survival Skills, there isn’t enough substance to them to build for a survival skill heavy build either, but they are the only skills we have that actually have good base functionality, and really, Sharpening Stone shouldn’t even exist outside of it’s trait form, which has a guaranteed higher usage than the skill itself, because the skill adds 5 bleeds for a 45 second cooldown that most classes in the game can accomplish just by autoattacking (not a single ranger weapon at its very base functionality applies a condition by autoattacking, and the one that does have a condition on autoattack has a positioning requirement).

Because our only two traitlines that aren’t really for heavy utility investment are Wilderness Survival and Beastmastery, it should come as no surprise that the large majority of players choose to invest in either of these traitlines as supplementary choices to the utility they choose to build around.

Skirmishing is a double edged sword because it “feels” like traps are in the wrong traitline, but that is mostly because Skirmishing doesn’t actually offer anything to power builds damage wise other than a 25 trait minor, and the stats acquired (precison/crit damage), and a few niche uses with Moment of Clarity that in totality makes one of the best direct damage traitlines for stats gained also one of the worst traitlines for trait selection.

All in all though, Traps, Spirits, and definitely Signets, require way much investment, and they force builds to specialize their functions in a game where ANet has turned almost every other class into a “swiss army knife,” meaning that they can accomplish or pseudo-accomplish both a wide variety of offensive and defensive roles/abilities with single builds, while Signets and Traps basically have to go full offense, and Spirit builds are basically full support.

Just my own thoughts on the matter. I think that each of the utility Grandmaster traits need to get a Spirits Unbound treatment and get a lower slot, then take an already strong trait, make it stronger, and then bump it up to grandmaster status.

Example: Move Signet of the Beastmaster down, and bump up Eagle Eye to Grandmaster, and on top of it’s current functionality, have it effect the shortbow’s range and damage as well.

Move Trap Potency down, bump Trappers Expertise up to Grandmaster tier and change the functionality to either transfer conditions to enemies on trap pulses, or to remove boons on enemies hit by traps, etc.

Just examples though, we could debate all day which traits need to be moved up and what their new possible functionality could be.

I dont think I’d ever pick SotBM, even if it was lower, which is why I think it should be inherent. The signet actives just aren’t that amazing.

Sube Dai.8496:

I dont think I’d ever pick SotBM, even if it was lower, which is why I think it should be inherent. The signet actives just aren’t that amazing.

I agree personally, but I have yet to see that ANet agrees with us sadly. Outside of Signet of Renewal, I don’t even really see the purpose of ever activating a signet without Signet of the Beastmaster, and having to trait 30 points just to make signets worth activating is beyond terrible design imo.

Sharpening Stones was only ever good when it worked with Barrage, When they nerfed that it became mediocre….It makes a decent trait, but a poor utility because of this.

I agree with Jcbrow on Skirmishing though, It is an awful Powerline..

Half the traits are Pet Related, the other Half Trap Related

Terravos.4059:

Sharpening Stones was only ever good when it worked with Barrage, When they nerfed that it became mediocre….It makes a decent trait, but a poor utility because of this.

I agree with Jcbrow on Skirmishing though, It is an awful Powerline..

Half the traits are Pet Related, the other Half Trap Related

Its an awful power line, that is better than the power line (cause of the stats)!

I don’t trait Marks for my “power” build, that pretty much says it all :P

jcbroe.4329:

Just my own thoughts on the matter. I think that each of the utility Grandmaster traits need to get a Spirits Unbound treatment and get a lower slot, then take an already strong trait, make it stronger, and then bump it up to grandmaster status.

Example: Move Signet of the Beastmaster down, and bump up Eagle Eye to Grandmaster, and on top of it’s current functionality, have it effect the shortbow’s range and damage as well.

Move Trap Potency down, bump Trappers Expertise up to Grandmaster tier and change the functionality to either transfer conditions to enemies on trap pulses, or to remove boons on enemies hit by traps, etc.

Just examples though, we could debate all day which traits need to be moved up and what their new possible functionality could be.

The problem I see with trying to fix it that way is that is doesnt really fix the problem, just lessen it.

Also shuffling traits around doesnt fix the other problems our traitlines have, such as the MS traitline being way too overloaded with very important traits for a LB ranger. Moving SoBM down wouldnt stop people still having to leave out very important traits because there are too many to choose from (Spotter, Piercing Arrows, Eagle Eye, SoBM, Remorsless). Swapping the trap traits wouldnt solve the problem that the Skirmishing traitline lacks decent power traits despite the stats it gives either.

They really need to compress traits into one, rather than shuffling them about. The 2 traps traits should just be as one in the master slot and then they can put a new power-based trait in the GM slot (or move an exsisting one from MS). Spirits should always walk.. was nice they moved that trait down but it shouldnt even exist, and neither should SoBM.

Compressing the trap traits, removing SoBM and moving the buffed Eagle-Eye to Skirmishing GM would instantly make traps more accessable and open up power/berserker builds a bit more.

Cufufalating.8479:

jcbroe.4329:

Just my own thoughts on the matter. I think that each of the utility Grandmaster traits need to get a Spirits Unbound treatment and get a lower slot, then take an already strong trait, make it stronger, and then bump it up to grandmaster status.

Example: Move Signet of the Beastmaster down, and bump up Eagle Eye to Grandmaster, and on top of it’s current functionality, have it effect the shortbow’s range and damage as well.

Move Trap Potency down, bump Trappers Expertise up to Grandmaster tier and change the functionality to either transfer conditions to enemies on trap pulses, or to remove boons on enemies hit by traps, etc.

Just examples though, we could debate all day which traits need to be moved up and what their new possible functionality could be.

The problem I see with trying to fix it that way is that is doesnt really fix the problem, just lessen it.

Also shuffling traits around doesnt fix the other problems our traitlines have, such as the MS traitline being way too overloaded with very important traits for a LB ranger. Moving SoBM down wouldnt stop people still having to leave out very important traits because there are too many to choose from (Spotter, Piercing Arrows, Eagle Eye, SoBM, Remorsless). Swapping the trap traits wouldnt solve the problem that the Skirmishing traitline lacks decent power traits despite the stats it gives either.

They really need to compress traits into one, rather than shuffling them about. The 2 traps traits should just be as one in the master slot and then they can put a new power-based trait in the GM slot (or move an exsisting one from MS). Spirits should always walk.. was nice they moved that trait down but it shouldnt even exist, and neither should SoBM.

Compressing the trap traits, removing SoBM and moving the buffed Eagle-Eye to Skirmishing GM would instantly make traps more accessable and open up power/berserker builds a bit more.

Agree.

I agree too, I just don’t have faith in ANet as a developer to implement even half of the suggested changes by the time this game has lost most everyone’s interest.

It’s too bad, and I wish they would have allocated the type of resources that the living world requires to fixing the games balance and broken mechanics before worrying about introducing new content, but I guess when a game isn’t a monthly payment and also has micro-transactions, that you aren’t trying to keep players playing and are only trying to get as many people to buy as much as possible before they get bored, and stop playing until the next living world patch, if they even log back in ever.

Sorry, just felt like offering up my criticism about ANet for a moment.

I agree with most all of the reorganization and reworking of mechanic ideas, so I do have the sincerest hope that ANet puts their best efforts towards streamlining big changes that would alter the gameplay experience in the future.

Have you ever considered that the Ranger class doesn’t exist in a vacuum? That if you go to every single class board right now, you will find numerous posts complaining about their class weaknesses and lack of attention from Anet?

No matter what Anet does, there will always be a current #1 class, a current #8 class, and everything in between….and those rankings change over the life of the game. It is impossible to be any other way.

Add to the fact that some players are freaking awesome. They can take any class and make you look silly. Conversely, some players are the opposite of awesome….although they don’t know it, and if they do know it, can’t admit it. So if they don’t do well, then it has to be the class is weak. It could never ever be their lack of skill.

So a bold prediction as people move on to the next best and greatest. Camelot Unchained….Elder Scrolls Online….Everquest Next …or whatever game you choose. It will be a rinse and repeat complaining that they didn’t get class balance right…and if it doesn’t improve they are going to leave and play something else.

jcbroe.4329:

I agree too, I just don’t have faith in ANet as a developer to implement even half of the suggested changes by the time this game has lost most everyone’s interest.

It’s too bad, and I wish they would have allocated the type of resources that the living world requires to fixing the games balance and broken mechanics before worrying about introducing new content, but I guess when a game isn’t a monthly payment and also has micro-transactions, that you aren’t trying to keep players playing and are only trying to get as many people to buy as much as possible before they get bored, and stop playing until the next living world patch, if they even log back in ever.

Sorry, just felt like offering up my criticism about ANet for a moment.

I agree with most all of the reorganization and reworking of mechanic ideas, so I do have the sincerest hope that ANet puts their best efforts towards streamlining big changes that would alter the gameplay experience in the future.

Very well said!

Forzani.2584:

Have you ever considered that the Ranger class doesn’t exist in a vacuum? That if you go to every single class board right now, you will find numerous posts complaining about their class weaknesses and lack of attention from Anet?

No matter what Anet does, there will always be a current #1 class, a current #8 class, and everything in between….and those rankings change over the life of the game. It is impossible to be any other way.

Add to the fact that some players are freaking awesome. They can take any class and make you look silly. Conversely, some players are the opposite of awesome….although they don’t know it, and if they do know it, can’t admit it. So if they don’t do well, then it has to be the class is weak. It could never ever be their lack of skill.

So a bold prediction as people move on to the next best and greatest. Camelot Unchained….Elder Scrolls Online….Everquest Next …or whatever game you choose. It will be a rinse and repeat complaining that they didn’t get class balance right…and if it doesn’t improve they are going to leave and play something else.

These sorts of generalizations are beyond stupid, and they fail to consider the substantial points made not only in this forum, but others. This thread delves into specific problems in specific contexts and gamemodes – there’s no assumption that rangers exist in a vacuum here. Of course there will always be people kittening about balance issues, but that fact doesn’t a priori invalidate all complaints. There are innumerable threads across the forums where people bizarrely argue that because everyone is kittening, everything is balanced. Those sorts of arguments, like yours, are actually the ones that presume a vacuum since they fail to consider the specifics. Instead of coming out with moronic, over-generalized posts, then, perhaps you might actually take a look at the specific arguments detailing why various players and classes find certain mechanics and abilities problematic, and maybe then you can enlighten us as to how we’re all so woefully misguided.

xev.9476:

Forzani.2584:

Have you ever considered that the Ranger class doesn’t exist in a vacuum? That if you go to every single class board right now, you will find numerous posts complaining about their class weaknesses and lack of attention from Anet?

No matter what Anet does, there will always be a current #1 class, a current #8 class, and everything in between….and those rankings change over the life of the game. It is impossible to be any other way.

Add to the fact that some players are freaking awesome. They can take any class and make you look silly. Conversely, some players are the opposite of awesome….although they don’t know it, and if they do know it, can’t admit it. So if they don’t do well, then it has to be the class is weak. It could never ever be their lack of skill.

So a bold prediction as people move on to the next best and greatest. Camelot Unchained….Elder Scrolls Online….Everquest Next …or whatever game you choose. It will be a rinse and repeat complaining that they didn’t get class balance right…and if it doesn’t improve they are going to leave and play something else.

These sorts of generalizations are beyond stupid, and they fail to consider the substantial points made not only in this forum, but others. This thread delves into specific problems in specific contexts and gamemodes – there’s no assumption that rangers exist in a vacuum here. Of course there will always be people kittening about balance issues, but that fact doesn’t a priori invalidate all complaints. There are innumerable threads across the forums where people bizarrely argue that because everyone is kittening, everything is balanced. Those sorts of arguments, like yours, are actually the ones that presume a vacuum since they fail to consider the specifics. Instead of coming out with moronic, over-generalized posts, then, perhaps you might actually take a look at the specific arguments detailing why various players and classes find certain mechanics and abilities problematic, and maybe then you can enlighten us as to how we’re all so woefully misguided.

lol complain much? Other than the whines, which the vast majority of your posts are, I’m sure you have the solutions to all Anets game balancing problems, right? They would be fools not to send you a contract offer asap.

After solving that problem, maybe move on to something more substantial. Produce world peace just like the pageant winners do when questioned what their goals are.

lol

Forzani is right about class balance, Complaining you’re going to leave cause your class isn’t balanced is always foolish. Because you’ll have equal Class Balance issues in every game.

I’ve been playing MMO’s since UO beta….In every single MMO, something has been on top, and something has been on bottom. Long as the class is playable I don’t mind it so much, a Ranger is playable..It’s not the best at everything… but it clearly sucks at some things..Clearly issues are present with the class…However you can play the class just fine.

We’re not talking about a Valkyrie from DAOC here… (For those who played DAOC and say “but valkyries were awesome” I’m talking about the release version, not the god mode version)

With that said, what was stated up above a few posts is correct, Rangers need a lot of their traits removed and made baseline, and alot combined into other traits. To much Trait Gloat in some lines while some lines are poor.

Honestly there is a lot traits in this game for every class that simply won’t be picked, and should be minor traits if anything (The res traits for most classes) but I think Ranger’s might be the worst with Trait Gloat..

Forzani.2584:

lol complain much? Other than the whines, which the vast majority of your posts are, I’m sure you have the solutions to all Anets game balancing problems, right? They would be fools not to send you a contract offer asap.

After solving that problem, maybe move on to something more substantial. Produce world peace just like the pageant winners do when questioned what their goals are.

lol

Good to see you continuing in the spirit of moronic, inattentive, over-generalized posts!

I dont want to start an arguement here since I like this thread, but I dont really see the purpose of your post Forz. You essentially are saying noone should bother posting things which are wrong or unbalanced because every class has balance issues? How does everyone having issues mean that none of them should be fixed? Thats.. bizzare logic.

And besides anything is untrue.. I’ve been training a mesmer and spent a lot of time on their forums.. and they do have a few complains but by and large they forum is all posting awesome builds and arraging community competitions. They seem perfectly happy with how they are.. so no, not everyone is equally displeased with their class.

And your other point, that perfect balance is impossible to achieve and there will always be better and worse classes.. Thats probably true, but I think what people here object to is that we have been the bottom class in MANY regards since launch. Its not cycling round with the top class always changing and noone being bottom forever like you suggest. Rangers simply want our turn to be buffed up and are therefore trying to let ANet know what we think is wrong and what we think could/should be changed to help us.

What exacly is your problem with that?

Also a final note.. implying that everyone who complains about balance is just bad at the game and cant admit it is frankly rude and ignorant and your part.

Forzani.2584:

Have you ever considered that the Ranger class doesn’t exist in a vacuum? That if you go to every single class board right now, you will find numerous posts complaining about their class weaknesses and lack of attention from Anet?

No matter what Anet does, there will always be a current #1 class, a current #8 class, and everything in between….and those rankings change over the life of the game. It is impossible to be any other way.

Add to the fact that some players are freaking awesome. They can take any class and make you look silly. Conversely, some players are the opposite of awesome….although they don’t know it, and if they do know it, can’t admit it. So if they don’t do well, then it has to be the class is weak. It could never ever be their lack of skill.

So a bold prediction as people move on to the next best and greatest. Camelot Unchained….Elder Scrolls Online….Everquest Next …or whatever game you choose. It will be a rinse and repeat complaining that they didn’t get class balance right…and if it doesn’t improve they are going to leave and play something else.

The list I’m compiling is more generalized than a class tiering list.

Look:

• Pet responsiveness
• Reliance on small handful of traits for every working build
• Pet survival not being balanced adequately for large scale engagements
• Utilities completely outclassing other utilities
• Weapons not having unique and competitive functions/roles versus content
• Pet class that harms pets, contradicting by design
• More functionality/gameplay options for pets
• Trait reorganization stressing hybridization over heavy investment

Not a single piece of this list states that anything is imbalanced, but rather, each and every single change on that list at its core is a Quality of Life improvement.

And so what if every single profession subforum has threads about their own classes weaknesses and requested improvements? Isn’t it entirely possible that every single class in the game is due for some Quality of Life improvements?

This thread has nothing to do with whining or crying or saying we’re weak. It was made with the intention for ranger players to be able to evaluate their own class so that when the balance subforum finally opens up, I personally will be able to, at the very least, take a list of improvements that has been discussed within the ranger community to that forum, so that maybe I can get a well organized topic into the balance thread before the forum becomes flooded with everybody just wanting their class to be OP and asking for buffs.

But instead of just dismissing this topic, why don’t you take the time to actually tell me (and everybody else) what you actually think of the list I’m gathering? Are there any points on it you agree with or don’t agree with? Or is the ranger class designed and implemented perfectly, which is why you are against the topic? Your opinion is just as appreciated as anybody else who shares their opinion here, as this is just a friendly discussion

I am all for the nirvana of perfect class balance. Some people have great ideas. Some just like to whine with no realistic suggestions. I am not suggesting everyone that complains about class balance is bad at the game. It does apply to quite a few though.

What I am saying is for these types of games, every class seems to take a turn at being on top. I don’t think it is an accident. As most say, PvE Rangers are one of the better classes out there. PvP – All we do is get complaints from the rest of the game about being overpowered. WvW? Personally I think we are middle of the pack. Better than some, worse than others. GvG in WvW? Probably not the best. But that goes to the heart of what I am saying. There will only ever be the top 4 or so classes that will be included. Those classes are fluid depending on class balancing and/or the community discovering new strategies. Dungeons? I don’t do dungeons but what I read is Rangers likely not the best. See note above re GvG WvW.

Overall if you l ook at the above Rangers are not bad overall. Every class could use some tweaking.

I don’t believe everyone who posts in class forums always has the best interests in the game. Many are self absorbed that are only interested in their class only. At the expense of everyone else. Some of the suggestions are laughable overpowered.

Forzani.2584:

I am all for the nirvana of perfect class balance. Some people have great ideas. Some just like to whine with no realistic suggestions. I am not suggesting everyone that complains about class balance is bad at the game. It does apply to quite a few though.

What I am saying is for these types of games, every class seems to take a turn at being on top. I don’t think it is an accident. As most say, PvE Rangers are one of the better classes out there. PvP – All we do is get complaints from the rest of the game about being overpowered. WvW? Personally I think we are middle of the pack. Better than some, worse than others. GvG in WvW? Probably not the best. But that goes to the heart of what I am saying. There will only ever be the top 4 or so classes that will be included. Those classes are fluid depending on class balancing and/or the community discovering new strategies. Dungeons? I don’t do dungeons but what I read is Rangers likely not the best. See note above re GvG WvW.

Overall if you l ook at the above Rangers are not bad overall. Every class could use some tweaking.

I don’t believe everyone who posts in class forums always has the best interests in the game. Many are self absorbed that are only interested in their class only. At the expense of everyone else. Some of the suggestions are laughable overpowered.

I absolutely agree with you.

With everything you mentioned in mind, that is exactly what I personally am hoping to take away from this thread; a list of improvements that at its core is just an elaborately explained list of features that have improvement potential, and then put them in an eventual subforum designed for devs to get feedback.

The only intention there is hopefully to either present some new perspective to the devs that they may not currently have, or to point out a particular weakness that they might actually agree with, in order for them to, if anything, perhaps streamline it a bit within their patching process so it makes it down the pipeline to the players quicker than other potential things they are thinking (like adding a new water spirit heal) that just may not be “meaningful” or “necessary” in the community’s eyes.

I’m hoping that the whole system ends up being a nice collaboration between the players and the devs. As you basically pointed out, it’s pretty silly to just jump into a game and expect perfect balance, and then leave if it isn’t perfectly balanced for another game that will be in the same situation just because that’s how MMO’s are.

That, I think, is the biggest thing that keeps me coming back to this game. That more and more, I see the devs looking at the players and seeing more from our perspective, as we in the community start to see more and more what they are attempting to do for us. I’m not by any means saying they are perfect, and a lot of the time, I’m very unsatisfied with ANet, but I do want to be around when all of the collaborative efforts and discussions pay off, and all of a sudden, we are looking at a final picture at what the game should look and play like.

There is a huge chance that it will probably never happen though haha, but it happened for me in Guild Wars 1, so I’m hoping that ANet pulls off one of those sneaky patches where all of a sudden, I sit back and think to myself that they probably couldn’t make the game any better from that point.

jcbroe.4329:

Forzani.2584:

I am all for the nirvana of perfect class balance. Some people have great ideas. Some just like to whine with no realistic suggestions. I am not suggesting everyone that complains about class balance is bad at the game. It does apply to quite a few though.

What I am saying is for these types of games, every class seems to take a turn at being on top. I don’t think it is an accident. As most say, PvE Rangers are one of the better classes out there. PvP – All we do is get complaints from the rest of the game about being overpowered. WvW? Personally I think we are middle of the pack. Better than some, worse than others. GvG in WvW? Probably not the best. But that goes to the heart of what I am saying. There will only ever be the top 4 or so classes that will be included. Those classes are fluid depending on class balancing and/or the community discovering new strategies. Dungeons? I don’t do dungeons but what I read is Rangers likely not the best. See note above re GvG WvW.

Overall if you l ook at the above Rangers are not bad overall. Every class could use some tweaking.

I don’t believe everyone who posts in class forums always has the best interests in the game. Many are self absorbed that are only interested in their class only. At the expense of everyone else. Some of the suggestions are laughable overpowered.

I absolutely agree with you.

With everything you mentioned in mind, that is exactly what I personally am hoping to take away from this thread; a list of improvements that at its core is just an elaborately explained list of features that have improvement potential, and then put them in an eventual subforum designed for devs to get feedback.

The only intention there is hopefully to either present some new perspective to the devs that they may not currently have, or to point out a particular weakness that they might actually agree with, in order for them to, if anything, perhaps streamline it a bit within their patching process so it makes it down the pipeline to the players quicker than other potential things they are thinking (like adding a new water spirit heal) that just may not be “meaningful” or “necessary” in the community’s eyes.

I’m hoping that the whole system ends up being a nice collaboration between the players and the devs. As you basically pointed out, it’s pretty silly to just jump into a game and expect perfect balance, and then leave if it isn’t perfectly balanced for another game that will be in the same situation just because that’s how MMO’s are.

That, I think, is the biggest thing that keeps me coming back to this game. That more and more, I see the devs looking at the players and seeing more from our perspective, as we in the community start to see more and more what they are attempting to do for us. I’m not by any means saying they are perfect, and a lot of the time, I’m very unsatisfied with ANet, but I do want to be around when all of the collaborative efforts and discussions pay off, and all of a sudden, we are looking at a final picture at what the game should look and play like.

There is a huge chance that it will probably never happen though haha, but it happened for me in Guild Wars 1, so I’m hoping that ANet pulls off one of those sneaky patches where all of a sudden, I sit back and think to myself that they probably couldn’t make the game any better from that point.

The chances that we will get something like the pet overhaul we saw in GW1 in this game seems less and less likely. It doesn’t even feel like any of the old mentality from GW1 days is left in the folks they brought over.

I’m sure it’s been said before, but i’ll say it again, where’s our STABILITY? We have one accessible in the form of RAO, but it is on a huge cool down …… It is murder with out some form of accessible stability!

I know of the signet of the beast master, but 30 points is not really “accessible”,

Luku.6542:

I’m sure it’s been said before, but i’ll say it again, where’s our STABILITY? We have one accessible in the form of RAO, but it is on a huge cool down …… It is murder with out some form of accessible stability!

I know of the signet of the beast master, but 30 points is not really “accessible”,

Thieves, mesmers, engineers and necros are asking the same question bro, only 3 profs that have easy/accessible stability access are ele , warrior and guardian .

Granted, engis do have a slightly more accessible way of getting stability via toss elixir B now, but that’s about the end of the list.

The more i think about our pets, the more i think they should get more benefit stat-vise from BM line. Instead of +1 pet stat/point, it should be +2 pet stat/point.

^Either that or make it percentage-based.

Durzlla.6295:

Luku.6542:

I’m sure it’s been said before, but i’ll say it again, where’s our STABILITY? We have one accessible in the form of RAO, but it is on a huge cool down …… It is murder with out some form of accessible stability!

I know of the signet of the beast master, but 30 points is not really “accessible”,

Thieves, mesmers, engineers and necros are asking the same question bro, only 3 profs that have easy/accessible stability access are ele , warrior and guardian .

Granted, engis do have a slightly more accessible way of getting stability via toss elixir B now, but that’s about the end of the list.

I agree with you, though the difference here is that the other classes you list have reasonable escape means i.e. blink/stealth, and the ranger generally has to stand and take it in the face… Engis do do ok as you say (i have one).

Luku.6542:

Durzlla.6295:

Luku.6542:

I’m sure it’s been said before, but i’ll say it again, where’s our STABILITY? We have one accessible in the form of RAO, but it is on a huge cool down …… It is murder with out some form of accessible stability!

I know of the signet of the beast master, but 30 points is not really “accessible”,

Thieves, mesmers, engineers and necros are asking the same question bro, only 3 profs that have easy/accessible stability access are ele , warrior and guardian .

Granted, engis do have a slightly more accessible way of getting stability via toss elixir B now, but that’s about the end of the list.

I agree with you, though the difference here is that the other classes you list have reasonable escape means i.e. blink/stealth, and the ranger generally has to stand and take it in the face… Engis do do ok as you say (i have one).

I gotta say, rangers got some really good escape depending on what you take (MT or LR on a LB is great for escaping) but it’s certainly not as wife spread as a thief or Mesmers

actually the +1 pet bonus is roughly 50% of the bonus heroes get. So if you invest 100 into BM line the hp increase is 500 instead of 1000 .

Just to clarify since it can be a bit misleading – each point in the BM line increases all primary pet attributes by 10.

OGDeadHead.8326:

Just to clarify since it can be a bit misleading – each point in the BM line increases all primary pet attributes by 10.

and it is not enough. The HP gain is too low, the toughness gain is too low and hte precision/power gain is laughable.

Prysin.8542:

OGDeadHead.8326:

Just to clarify since it can be a bit misleading – each point in the BM line increases all primary pet attributes by 10.

and it is not enough. The HP gain is too low, the toughness gain is too low and hte precision/power gain is laughable.

I agree. Even if the values were doubled I don’t think you would even notice it, due to the way pets work.

OGDeadHead.8326:

Prysin.8542:

OGDeadHead.8326:

Just to clarify since it can be a bit misleading – each point in the BM line increases all primary pet attributes by 10.

and it is not enough. The HP gain is too low, the toughness gain is too low and hte precision/power gain is laughable.

I agree. Even if the values were doubled I don’t think you would even notice it, due to the way pets work.

Actually, you would, Masters Bond used to be 10pts per stack instead of 8, and you used to get a full BM pet with 25 MB to literally 3 shot enemies with auto attacks, granted this was in Beta when everyone and their grandma thought zerker was the only good amulet, and people like to stand still to attack, but the point still stands!

Pets have different scaling with power, precision, vitality, and toughness than we do, I do think it should be increased (or they get a % of our stats added ontop of their own base stats) because it’s not super noticeable….

Also pets should have some kittening base condi damage and/or healing power depending on their species (IE: Moas have healing power base, where a spider or a devourer would have some condi damage)

i agree, that makes sense.

Further specializing the pets would be good. Although, i think that if we were to do so, pets would have to get their own healing. Perhaps give them the same healing system as WvW guards? Seeing as that one is very reliable and effective in 1 v 1. But not OP in 1vX or against strong bursts.
Pets get 2 utility slots, we can choose from X utilities. Where as 1 utility slot is specced for defense (burst heal/evade/invuln/condi cleanse type of functions) and one for offense (quickness/burst dps/condition attack/CC).
Pet attack/retreat is put on same button. This way we get more control, higher survivability and greater overall reliability. Ofcourse this system demands more from the player. But once you learn it, just like the attunement/kit swap systems, it starts being a boon instead of a major drag.

Prysin.8542:

i agree, that makes sense.

Further specializing the pets would be good. Although, i think that if we were to do so, pets would have to get their own healing. Perhaps give them the same healing system as WvW guards? Seeing as that one is very reliable and effective in 1 v 1. But not OP in 1vX or against strong bursts.
Pets get 2 utility slots, we can choose from X utilities. Where as 1 utility slot is specced for defense (burst heal/evade/invuln/condi cleanse type of functions) and one for offense (quickness/burst dps/condition attack/CC).
Pet attack/retreat is put on same button. This way we get more control, higher survivability and greater overall reliability. Ofcourse this system demands more from the player. But once you learn it, just like the attunement/kit swap systems, it starts being a boon instead of a major drag.

Only question is how would you use said utilities? I have a VERY strong feeling Anet DOES NOT want to use more F keys than 4.

I do wish we had more customization for our pets whether it was traits ( in the BM traitline) or as you suggested with choosing skills so my Fernhound would be different from yours.

PS: why would they need a new way to heal?

Durzlla.6295:

Prysin.8542:

i agree, that makes sense.

Further specializing the pets would be good. Although, i think that if we were to do so, pets would have to get their own healing. Perhaps give them the same healing system as WvW guards? Seeing as that one is very reliable and effective in 1 v 1. But not OP in 1vX or against strong bursts.
Pets get 2 utility slots, we can choose from X utilities. Where as 1 utility slot is specced for defense (burst heal/evade/invuln/condi cleanse type of functions) and one for offense (quickness/burst dps/condition attack/CC).
Pet attack/retreat is put on same button. This way we get more control, higher survivability and greater overall reliability. Ofcourse this system demands more from the player. But once you learn it, just like the attunement/kit swap systems, it starts being a boon instead of a major drag.

Only question is how would you use said utilities? I have a VERY strong feeling Anet DOES NOT want to use more F keys than 4.

I do wish we had more customization for our pets whether it was traits ( in the BM traitline) or as you suggested with choosing skills so my Fernhound would be different from yours.

PS: why would they need a new way to heal?

By tweaking current system;
Current:
F1 = Attack
F2 = Ability/Utility
F3 = Return
F4 = Swap

New:
F1 = Offensive Utility/Ability
F2 = Defensive Utility/Ability
F3 = Action/Abort
F4 = Swap

EDIT:
Not us, but the pets. Currently, we have to burn OUR heal for the sake of the pet. This can in some cases, be a major hindrance and a large risk. By letting the pet get their own healing, either through an automated mechanic, such as guards in WvW, which automatically queue a healing skill upon hitting 30-40% HP. Or through a player controlled defensive ability. This ability can be a simple “Lightning Reflexes” like dodge, or a medium strength healing skill applied to pets only.

Could just make the attack command return as well.

If your pet is already attacking something and you tell it to attack a different target, it attacks that target. If your pet is already attacking something and you tell it to attack the same target, it returns.

You then can turn F3 into the secondary attacks.