Guild Wars 2

In the specialisation system, from what we’ve seen Rangers will need to go into skirmishing and take the spotter master trait to get into dungeons. Primal Reflexes is a fairly meh trait to me, but I can see the appeal, and trapper’s expertise is exciting, but impossible to take with spotter.

Traps are perfect for a dungeon scenario, providing fields, AoE damage, great burst when pulling a boss, etc. But traps’ traits are still suffering for being in the skirmishing line, despite being a perfect fit for Wilderness Survival (like they were in GW1). If Wilderness Survival is our defensive/condition trait line, why isn’t there a condition option in the master slot? Like, say, Trapper’s Expertise.

I don’t want to break it for you but …
…
Traps are useless for dungeons. The only use I can think of is Fire field.
Nothing more… Out of all the 4 traps we get, the only use is nothing but fire field.

That might as well change in HoT, but currently – there is no reason whatsoever.

Tragic Positive.9356:

I don’t want to break it for you but …
…
Traps are useless for dungeons. The only use I can think of is Fire field.
Nothing more… Out of all the 4 traps we get, the only use is nothing but fire field.

That might as well change in HoT, but currently – there is no reason whatsoever.

Under the assumption that conditions are going to be useful in PvE, which Anet has been pushing towards more and more, you’ll likely bring spike trap/viper’s nest, fire trap and healing spring. Frost Spirit is your last utility and Entangle is the elite. They’ve also stated that traps will be getting an arm time (basically irrelevant to PvE) and some kind of compensation (likely more stopping power).

I’m likely overreacting a little, as there’s a lot we don’t know. Spirits are supposedly getting buffs to compensate for their immobility, Druids might get a utility skill as strong as well of reflection, etc. But not providing thoughts, discussion and concerns based on what we do know is neither helpful to the designers nor is it interesting.

WoW, so many premature assumptions.
Its funny how you claim that you must have “spotter” becuse its today PVE “meta” BUT you want to PVE with taps which is today backward “meta”, like one of the worse things you can do.
After patch who knows? Perheps the stats changes on gear will make everyboudy run 100% crit chance(with fury) which will make Spotter a useless trait for PVE?

Perheps changes to traps will make it super good – regarding fields like
@Tragic Positive.9356 saied, if you want just the field you dont need the trapper trait at all(it just buff your condi duration not the field duration ATM) if you condi just use bonefire" Regarding other fiels and effects – the new aoe axe is like a better frozen trap with aoe weakness(poison trap field combo) so based on the info we have today, you have much better options.

Unless there’s a damage modifier trait for 20%+ when using traps or just having them on your bar, then don’t expect traps to be a thing in dungeons after HoT… Unless you use Dragonhunter traps… Those look much better than Ranger traps.

I can see the trap that does 25 stacks of vulnerability (Light’s Judgement) being a thing for guards to take into dungeons, instant 25 vulnerability for 10-15s is pretty amazing.

For us, hopefully we get something decent. Keeping our short CDs and buffing the damage output. Right now, there is no reason whatsoever to take any traps into dungeons or PvE content.

HotHit.6783:

Tragic Positive.9356:

I don’t want to break it for you but …
…
Traps are useless for dungeons. The only use I can think of is Fire field.
Nothing more… Out of all the 4 traps we get, the only use is nothing but fire field.

That might as well change in HoT, but currently – there is no reason whatsoever.

Under the assumption that conditions are going to be useful in PvE, which Anet has been pushing towards more and more, you’ll likely bring spike trap/viper’s nest, fire trap and healing spring.

Conditions will get stronger, the traps wont. The change to conditions will only promote classes/builds that are currently held back by the condition cap, which the ranger isn’t because he doesn’t reach that cap. Ergo, traps will stay useless.

You’re asking for a change based on a few assumptions.

Others are arguing against your request based on assumptions.

The only solid info from this is:

• Trap traits are in Skirmishing
• Traps currently aren’t good in the PvE meta
• Conditions are likely to change

None of that information is new.

This thread and the discussion/argument seem quite premature and unfruitful.

Sebrent, there’s a lot more information to go on than that, even if we can’t guarantee exact numbers. I’m asking for a change based on current trends in PvE and what information we know. You all seem to be accusing me of making baseless assumptions, or just saying “no traps are bad right now”, so let me properly reference my evidence.

Assumption #0: Changes to traits and Anet acting on feedback will only become more difficult the closer to HoT’s release we get.
Evidence: Human Psychology. People don’t like change, they like change less the longer the thing being changed has remained the same.
Conclusion: It is important to discuss and evaluate problems with possible builds in the specialisation system as soon as possible so that Anet can receive and act on useful feedback.

Assumption #1: Arenanet wants to improve build diversity by making condition damage a valid part of PvE gameplay.
Evidence: The existence of enemies specifically resistant to non-condition damage, QoL buffs to conditions and the recent inclusion of sinister gear.
Conclusion: Condition builds will be relevant in the HoT PvE meta.

Assumption #2: Post-HoT’s release, our best build for condition damage will still be Poison Master Trapper.
Evidence: Spirits rework means we can’t reliably include Sun spirit in the discussion, the Sinister trap Ranger is our strongest dungeon solo condition build currently and the stopping power of traps is increasing due to the inclusion of a drawback negligible to PvE.
Conclusion: Traps will have some relevance to PvE.

Assumption #3: Physical damage output will remain important, regardless of a condi meta.
Evidence: All builds regardless of how ridiculous still deal some physical damage, no condi damage/duration/condistat3 gear, traits in condition lines and condition related traits applying buffs to physical damage.
Conclusion: Spotter will remain valid for increasing party DPS.

Opposing point #1: There is no reason for traps to become relevant.
Rebuttal: Upcoming buffs increasing their stopping power, at the cost of an irrelevant drawback for PvE. Upcoming condition changes.

Opposing point #2: If traps will become meta, then what says spotter won’t be bad?
Rebuttal: I can’t prove that something ridiculous won’t happen. Players might stop doing non-condi damage, crits might stop being related to condi damage, Might stacks granting power and malice might stop giving Sinister builds kittens. But under current situations, Sinister/Giver’s Gear, the current best condi gear, appreciates spotter.

My point. Ranger’s condition based builds suffer in the current trait set-up because their key traits overlap with key utility traits. (Specifically Poison Master and Condi removal, Trapper’s Expertise and Spotter)

@HotHit.6783
1) chnges to spirits are about making them- static, stronger with bigger radius and more duriable(sounds like a perfect fit for PVE)

2)Very good chance that becuse of stats independance from traits making gear stats sets much more noticeable, Meta pve builds will MinMAax to be around ~80% crit chance and 100% with fury – spotter will be close to useless in PVE but sill OK in PVP

3)claiming somthing is good doesnt make it a meta or a “must have”, theory crafting is all about making sacrifices cus u cant take it all.

4) I do belive A.net will make changes to traits in the skirmishing line but for other reasons – they saied they want SB trait to be an adept(or a master) and the new hutning trait GM, but its a weak trait ATM for a GM. They clearly not sure about the final skirmishing trait line, they might put trap as a GM trait the same way they do in NM with spirits.

I appreciate the effort, but a few issues:

With Assumption #0

• not all humans dislike change … people’s supposed dislike for change hold what weight on when changes need to be made? … it has not stopped changes from being made throughout the life of the game.
• changes to mechanics are less likely the closer to release we get because those require more coding than simple number tweaks.

With Assumption #1:

• Your conclusion assumes that ArenaNet will be successful with their changes. You don’t state this.

With Assumption #2:

• Why does Spirit rework mean we can’t rely on Sun Spirit? I see no evidence for this.
• We don’t know what changes traps are getting to balance the trigger time.
• Is there proof that Sinister Trapper is our current best solo?
• Isn’t there a large difference between solo and group meta for PvE? … the answer is “yes”.

Assumption #3:

• Correct that physical damage is pertinent given that all abilities use it
• Incorrect that spotter will remain required. If a group can get to 100% crit chance without Spotter, Spotter can become obsolete. If content is like Teq, Wurms, etc. where it can’t be critically hit … Spotter is obsolete against that content.

Opposing Point #1:

• We have zero clue what these “changes” are going to be

Opposing Point #2:

• There wasn’t a point to give a rebuttal to … just someone saying “what if” … it doesn’t cover what would make traps meta, etc.. It doesn’t cover the group dps increase of spotter … doesn’t cover finishers from fire trap (assuming it stays a fire field).

There is very little information.

Even with your attempt here, there are several undocumented assumptions.

Sebrent.3625:

I appreciate the effort, but a few issues:
With Assumption #1:

• Your conclusion assumes that ArenaNet will be successful with their changes. You don’t state this.

Whether Anet will be successful or not is irrelevant. What I assume is that Anet’s goal is in line with improving condition damage for PvE. Something that can help them reach that goal is ensuring that condition builds are properly supported within the traitlines.

With Assumption #2:

• Why does Spirit rework mean we can’t rely on Sun Spirit? I see no evidence for this.
• We don’t know what changes traps are getting to balance the trigger time.
• Is there proof that Sinister Trapper is our current best solo?
• Isn’t there a large difference between solo and group meta for PvE? … the answer is “yes”.

For solo builds, my source is the only people I’ve seen really discussing it.. While the solo and group metas are different, our lack of better condi skills than traps doesn’t get mistranslated.
I suppose I am underestimating spirits though, especially Sunny. With poison and burning currently being experimented with for intensity stacking, if burning caps are difficult to reach Sunny could easily see use in dungeons with Frosty.

Assumption #3:

• Correct that physical damage is pertinent given that all abilities use it
• Incorrect that spotter will remain required. If a group can get to 100% crit chance without Spotter, Spotter can become obsolete. If content is like Teq, Wurms, etc. where it can’t be critically hit … Spotter is obsolete against that content.

If spotter doesn’t remain “required”, we’d better hope the Ranger gets something unique and valuable to meta dungeon runs then. Otherwise I doubt Frosty’ll be enough to justify our place in a speedrun group, which is another step back from profession balance/diversity. If all bosses just start being immune to crits then, well, that’d straight up put us in a power/malice meta I suppose.

Opposing Point #1:

• We have zero clue what these “changes” are going to be

We have the word of the devs during the specialisations livestream. They said they would be adding a small arm time to make traps feel like traps, but provide compensation by making them more powerful. Whether they get cool utility (which includes throwing them as baseline), longer durations, more stopping power or just lowered cooldowns, they are effectively being buffed for PvE with no drawback whatsoever. As explained, they already have many desireable traits for attack skills in PvE and see use in the place where maximum offensive condition builds shine brightest.

Yeah…. but until we see what they actually do to them it’s just speculation.

Whether or not ANet is successful at making Conditions relevant to the meta has everything to do with conditions becoming relevant to the meta. ANet either is or isn’t successful at this. Everything else is dictated from that point.

Yes, they said they’d compensate by making the traps more powerful … what constitutes “more powerful” ? Look at one of the Guardian’s new traps (the fragments one) … it currently looks pretty bad.

Will traps become better? Hopefully.

Will traps become so good that they end up a superior choice to Wild Signet, Frost Spirit, and QZ? Extremely unlikely.

That unlikelihood is based on …. what exactly?

Example: If Mesmer becomes a more prominent part of the PvE meta with sharing Quickness … QZ could become far less useful.

We don’t know if this will/won’t happen … but if it does, QZ would possibly be replaced by some other utility.

Sebrent.3625:

That unlikelihood is based on …. what exactly?

Example: If Mesmer becomes a more prominent part of the PvE meta with sharing Quickness … QZ could become far less useful.

We don’t know if this will/won’t happen … but if it does, QZ would possibly be replaced by some other utility.

Unless they can keep it up 100% of the time or a trap becomes better than a 50% attack speed increase for 6 seconds every 48/60 seconds, yes, it’s unlikely.