Guild Wars 2

I’ve been trying out some power builds recently and decided to do some dps tests on the golems in the mists and compare them with the usual condition builds I run.

I know you would have to factor in toughness vitality and condition removal of the target to properly compare them, but seeing as the berserker ammy is almost all offensive stats I thought direct damage would be miles ahead of condition builds.

Pet was on passive the whole time.

Power build:
http://tinyurl.com/mv9rqgt

Condition build (Bm bunker):
http://tinyurl.com/k9nllfj

Results were very interesting, just goes to show why Bm bunker is considered rangers most competitive build atm.

I’m actually not surprised. I had run a power (2000+) precision (50%/ 51% crit damage), toughness (2040) build for the longest time. It worked great and had good survivability.

But after you beat me once, I switched over to a condition BM bunker (almost the exact same build you posted) and haven’t noticed ANY reduction in kill speed from the power build. In fact it can be faster, since you can pseudo-burst if you hit your conditions right and they have their removals on CD.

The survivability is very strong, plus you get robust pets. The only downsides are that your range is quite limited in terms of doing sustained damage, you really need to be ‘in their face’ for the condition BM bunker to shine, and sometimes it doesn’t mesh well with the composition of small havoc groups.

Your power build could do a lot more dmg: 25 points in skirm, runes of scholar (or thief) and +10% dmg when endurance is full. Conditions don’t get boosts from it. I know it sounds like pure theorycrafting, but actually I run all those % bonuses in single LB build

I would be curious to see the difference on the soft target golem. I would think power would do better than otherwise (on the heavy golem).

Interesting, although as you said it depends really on your target. A lot of people seem to forget or dont get enough condition removal when building.. whereas some others its near impossible to keep high condition time on (in my experience D/D eles are the worst. Between all their cleansing and high mobility its hard to stick to them which, as Brendin said, is really needed for the bunker build.)

Terkov.4138:

Your power build could do a lot more dmg: 25 points in skirm, runes of scholar (or thief) and +10% dmg when endurance is full. Conditions don’t get boosts from it. I know it sounds like pure theorycrafting, but actually I run all those % bonuses in single LB build

Yeah you could get more damage, but I was trying to compare builds that you would use in actual pvp not just specing for max damage on the golems.

The condition build has 20 points in BM even tho the pet was on passive the whole time.

You should try some moment of clarity/maul builds then. Or signet power builds.

jewishjoyride.4693:

You should try some moment of clarity/maul builds then. Or signet power builds.

Thats what I was using in the vid, a signet power build.

Power builds don’t really come into strength until you reach the 65+% crit dmg thresholds. I see you’re running 48% crit damage.

In wvw an offensive power build ranges between 70-110% crit dmg.

Power builds also outperform conditions in pve because in pve keeping high might stacks and high vulnerability stacks on a target is easy. In pvp, not so much. So you see condi builds, and only few classes run power builds because their attack scale very well with power (thieves, warriors, mesmers; particularly the first two).

The issue with the ranger is that his coefficients are ghastly, and he’s balanced around the fact that his pet does 40-60% of the total damage. So power and crit dmg only affect 40-60% of the equation.

With condition damage, the ranger does not have any reduced condition damage. He applies conditions just like any engineer or necro, and his condition damage is not halved because he has a pet.

The base damage and scaling of the ranger’s direct damage skills are simply horrendous, and so you resort to condition specs.

It’s also important to note that because ranger’s burst is tied to ai, with the exception of a full signet activated maul, he will simply never function as a berserker burst class. His delivery is neither reliable or immediate.

The ranger also has no base survival outside sword evades, so he must build tanky condition regen to last enough time for his deficient pet to kill opponents with conditions. You simply cannot gib competent people the way a thief or mesmer or ele or warrior can.

The problem is : Condition is god tier in Spvp, WvW and solo PVE . But fall apart in dungeons and group events, due to condition cap.

Lévis.5489:

The problem is : Condition is god tier in Spvp, WvW and solo PVE . But fall apart in dungeons and group events, due to condition cap.

False.

Increasing condi cap would change nothing.

Condi damage doesn’t scale nearly as good enough as power/crit/critdmg, condi damage does not get 25% from vulnerability stack, and most importantly even if they were close, power specs would be taken simply because burst damage is always valued more in an encounter than damage that needs ramp-up.

In a 3.5 sec ability comparsion with 100b, which can do 44k with full vulnerability and might stacks plus blood lust stacks, no condition spec in the game can do close to that damage in that time window, ever.

Most importantly, conditions are not affected by haste either. Condition specs are not affected by time warp the way power specs are.

Zenith.7301:

Lévis.5489:

The problem is : Condition is god tier in Spvp, WvW and solo PVE . But fall apart in dungeons and group events, due to condition cap.

False.

Increasing condi cap would change nothing.

Condi damage doesn’t scale nearly as good enough as power/crit/critdmg, condi damage does not get 25% from vulnerability stack, and most importantly even if they were close, power specs would be taken simply because burst damage is always valued more in an encounter than damage that needs ramp-up.

In a 3.5 sec ability comparsion with 100b, which can do 44k with full vulnerability and might stacks plus blood lust stacks, no condition spec in the game can do close to that damage in that time window, ever.

Most importantly, conditions are not affected by haste either. Condition specs are not affected by time warp the way power specs are.

Yes in pve direct damage is king and rightfully so, berserker builds stack all their stats into offense to get those numbers, whereas conditions only needs one stat ( two if you count condition duration). But that’s the advantage of condition builds, you only need one stat to do decent damage so you can invest in more defense.

I think a better comparison would be soldiers and apothecary, since they both only have one offensive stat.

That just got me thinking tho, imagine if conditions could crit and there was condition damage+precision+crit damage stat combo, im sure that would rival berserker builds in damage.

Nugget.8031:

jewishjoyride.4693:

You should try some moment of clarity/maul builds then. Or signet power builds.

Thats what I was using in the vid, a signet power build.

Ummmm, you didn’t use any of the signet actives……….

jewishjoyride.4693:

Nugget.8031:

jewishjoyride.4693:

You should try some moment of clarity/maul builds then. Or signet power builds.

Thats what I was using in the vid, a signet power build.

Ummmm, you didn’t use any of the signet actives……….

I was comparing the average dps (from weapon sets) of the two builds that I have used, not trying to use every cooldown and blow the golem up in two seconds.

That’s why I had my pet on passive the whole time and didn’t use any utilities/elites.

Burning and quick bleeding/poison application ftw.

How much health do these golems have btw? I would like a “dr boom” it’s not very helpful when they die in only a few seconds.

Zenith.7301:

Power builds don’t really come into strength until you reach the 65+% crit dmg thresholds. I see you’re running 48% crit damage.

In wvw an offensive power build ranges between 70-110% crit dmg.

Power builds also outperform conditions in pve because in pve keeping high might stacks and high vulnerability stacks on a target is easy. In pvp, not so much. So you see condi builds, and only few classes run power builds because their attack scale very well with power (thieves, warriors, mesmers; particularly the first two).

The issue with the ranger is that his coefficients are ghastly, and he’s balanced around the fact that his pet does 40-60% of the total damage. So power and crit dmg only affect 40-60% of the equation.

With condition damage, the ranger does not have any reduced condition damage. He applies conditions just like any engineer or necro, and his condition damage is not halved because he has a pet.

The base damage and scaling of the ranger’s direct damage skills are simply horrendous, and so you resort to condition specs.

It’s also important to note that because ranger’s burst is tied to ai, with the exception of a full signet activated maul, he will simply never function as a berserker burst class. His delivery is neither reliable or immediate.

The ranger also has no base survival outside sword evades, so he must build tanky condition regen to last enough time for his deficient pet to kill opponents with conditions. You simply cannot gib competent people the way a thief or mesmer or ele or warrior can.

Nice analysis, thanks.