Guild Wars 2

I made this short video today demonstrating why I love whirling defense and spirits in dungeons. I wish I could have included more fights but I only have so much space on my SSD. I need to buy another hard drive, I think, if I’m going to keep making these videos. Please, let me know what you think.

*There’s a few other clips in there demonstrating pet shielding and a little bit of WvW (including thief evasion). Enjoy!

Awesome idea using line of sight to protect your spirits in dungeons!

I always appreciate the positivity, as this forum has a bad case of buying into it’s own negative PR.

But, trying to use a Spirit solely for the passives by sticking them in hidey holes is only using half a Utility. How can half the effect of a Utility ever hope to compete with a Utility that gets to use it’s whole effect?

except other classes can do those things too
iwarden has a 16s cooldown; mine hit 7k-11k with a full spin (not counting the bleed damage from sharper images) whilst still reflecting (and another ref on temporal curtain)
scepter+pistol+idefender is better than using your pet as a meat shield for meow meow too (scepter spams clones that absorb projectiles from right next to him; you can shield yourself behind your duelists -which still do damage as opposed to sitting there like lemmings-; idefender just because i love seeing all the ret procs from the spins xD)
banners dont have to be summoned in an out of the way place because they dont die; and dont have to be traited to be effective

I don’t think it’s really productive to make direct comparisons between specific abilities on two different classes because there are just so, so many differences it doesn’t tell you much. Mesmer clones and phantasms can be used to block enemy attacks similar to the way a ranger can use their pet, but there are a lot of important differences between the two mechanics that make them hard to compare.

That’s why I think it’s better to consider skills on their own merits rather than try to compare them to what a completely different class does. Ranger pets don’t need improvements in dungeons because of what mesmers can do. Ranger pets need improvements in dungeons because of what rangers can’t do.

The same goes for spirits. They don’t need to be buffed because warrior banners are better. They need to be buffed because even if warrior banners didn’t exist they’d still be difficult to use for little payoff.

I don’t mind if some other class has a skill that’s similar to one of mine but better. After all, rangers actually do have some skills that are better versions of what other classes get. Consider that we get 50% increased endurance regen from a 5-point minor trait while the same ability is a grandmaster major trait for engineers. That doesn’t mean rangers are overpowered or engineers are underpowered. It means the classes are designed and balanced differently and have different levels of access to the same thing. That’s fine. In fact, it’s great. But everything a class has access to still needs to be balanced on its own merits.

Your video only proves Spirits need to be redesigned badly

Most GW2 BOSS encounters are built around aoe/cleave/cone damage.
It won’t matter where you position your spirits on most fights as they will be dead pretty quick. (archdiviner, cof p1 last boss and p2 last boss, dredge fractal, bloomhunger and pretty much anything with high aoe damage).

Watch your own video closely, pay attention to the party window! Your teammates were out of the spirits range most of the time because you had to place them so far away from the action. That specific enconter is an easy one without aoe spam so on most cases it only gets worse.

bloomhunger

Now there’s a Spirit herder.
Nuts to this point blank circle AOE business, I want laser beams all the way.

Yes, Spirits are useful, no, you can’t use them fully.

My party wasn’t used to spirits (PUG) so they weren’t used to running past for the buffs. Clearly that’s what was happening, I didn’t feel I had to point it out. In fact, they thought my spirt despawning meant spirit died so, yeah, people don’t normally see them in PUGs so what do you expect, Dani?

They started getting the hang of it later. I feel spirit secondaries are useful in pvp and not pve—unless you need CC for mobs—it’s better to protect the spirit if it can possibly get one shotted. Spirits are good at taking normal mob hits and in melee range you can heal them pretty easily. Make fun of spirits and me all you want, but the fact is that perma protection helps your group a lot, particularly in tough mob fights. I ran out of space so I didn’t film it but on that same run we almost wiped at the first group of mobs after Dulfy and the gate (ascalonian fractal). After that I switched back to stone spirit and we didn’t have an issue and ended up beating the captain on our first try. Versus the mobs leading up to the final arena, I was dropping spirits basically in the middle of the fight.

Durz used three spirits in the final molten facility boss and I have film of that as well. You’d be surprised how long the buff stays up, even if the spirit dies, and it was really pretty straightforward on how they helped: swiftness keeps you out of aoe rings and protection keeps you safe. Although I was in melee range the whole fight, many players prefer to range bosses like that in PUGs.

Also, no mention of my reaction time using whirling defense in the first clip? And no props for a tutorial on how to escape a thief? Noooo. Let’s just make fun of spirits. You guys are lame sometimes IMHO. Don’t expect any more videos from me.

“Rangers can’t do Fotm 30+” – I just did that yesterday.

“Rangers can’t use spirits” – I do.

“Whirling defense sucks” – Use it actively like I did in the first clip and being stationary isn’t an issue.

“How do you escape from a thief’s burst?” – Frost trap / greatsword / swiftness

That’s all I got. Now go home, you’re drunk!

Chopps.5047:

Also, no mention of my reaction time using whirling defense in the first clip? And no props for a tutorial on how to escape a thief? Noooo. Let’s just make fun of spirits. You guys are lame sometimes IMHO. Don’t expect any more videos from me.

Pouting much?

But if you insist, here is my feedback to everything non-spirit related:

• Good timing of the defensive Whirling Defense, but if I don’t have to reflect I usually just use Counterattack since it allows me to stay mobile.

• The offensive whirl is a bit underwhelming. The single Maul at the start did more damage than the whole 5-second WD channel.

• Pet to block shots is a smart move, but at this specific encounter you can stand inside the Golem and never be hit.

• Can’t say for sure, but the Mesmer you fought either disconnected or jumped into the water and fell on a rock (he instantly died). I think the fight still could have gone either way up to this point (yes I noticed the buffed up Jaguar, but if he would have jumped into the water those buffs would have ran out until he would have reached the Mesmer).

• The thief didn’t even chase that far, and you were concentrating all you efforts towards runing, while the thief even messed up his combo (notice how he failed to precast CnD)

Also I don’t think anyone ever said “Spirits suck cause they die all the time” but “Spirits suck cause their buffs are not worth the utility slot”

1:12 to 1:21 made me cringe. Awful timing with GS#4 :P

Tried spirits again today. Absolutely hated it. Basically what Rengaru said. The buffs they give suck.

Offhand axe #5… solely to reflect projectiles while being stationary? That would be more viable if it had a short cooldown. Rangers have access to an insane amount of evades that recovers quickly; there are far better options than offhand axe. Personally, I only use it to tag monsters while farming PVE LOL.

kiwituatara.6053:

Personally, I only use it to tag monsters while farming PVE LOL.

Yeah, the best skill for that is Axe-4 though.
The way the target limitation works for piercing AoE skills makes it hit every enemy in a mob at least once.
Love it for those huge initial mobs at Orr/Southsun.

And please upload more videos. I think its good that someones trying to find ways to make unpopular ranger skills viable. I think these arguments are productive it helps the ranger community find flaws and new ways of playing the profession.

Stice.5204:

I don’t think it’s really productive to make direct comparisons between specific abilities on two different classes because there are just so, so many differences it doesn’t tell you much. Mesmer clones and phantasms can be used to block enemy attacks similar to the way a ranger can use their pet, but there are a lot of important differences between the two mechanics that make them hard to compare.

i think it is; because its a problem with ranger (dont get me wrong; i love my ranger); they just get kitten severely in dungeons when compared to what any other class can bring to the table (which is why i only play my ranger in wvw/spvp now), anything to highlight this so we can get some decent developer dungeon love would be nice (and that vit buff to pets… was just… lazy… and un-needed in spvp)

Why not just kill the thief instead of running?

Eurantien.4632:

Why not just kill the thief instead of running?

^
and why didnt you have a stun breaker slotted? basilisk venom is ridiculously common in wvw; LR wouldve saved you from eating that abckstab

Good use of skills, yes, but spirits are unjustifiably flawed.

A well-coordinated, capable team with good placement by the ranger will a successful use make. Is that common (or even possible for some bosses, let alone mobs)? Nope. Everything has to go right and it’s still a 35% proc rate. That doesn’t include SoN (elite) which only heals nearby allies, and that means dropping in the line of fire, or roughly 5 seconds of life for the spirit.

They can be viable, but require very favorable conditions and, as you displayed, bunker positions. I’d refute that they “can’t” be used, but it’s undeniably harsh and imbalanced relative to other profession utility.

Eurantien.4632:

Why not just kill the thief instead of running?

A guy I know bet me I couldn’t get away from a thief if I let him get his stun and inital burst off. So I filmed myself doing it. If you watch in full HD you can see that I see him hiding behind a rock prior to switching to frost trap.

Also, vs the mesmer, it wasn’t even close. Skill lag botched my heal making the fight seem much closer than it was. Indeed, he jumped. I disagree it was poor timing of counterattack, as I was expecting another blow—not for him to jump.

Also, nice to know one of you guys would exploit a boss rather than play legit. You don’t think I know about that? I’m just not dumb enough to film myself cheating because that is lame. Actually, blocking shots with a pet is a general concept I was hoping to show because I don’t often see rangers doing it. I wasn’t saying “USE DEVOURER HERE ON OLD TOM BECAUSE ITS THE BEST AND PLAY LIKE THIS”, rather, I was saying (just as I said in the video) don’t forget that pets can block for you.

You guys need a serious chill pill. You’re way too quick to attack people who try to bring positive energy into this community. I don’t know if it’s the lack of real human contact or what that causes it but I’m not pouting when I say some of you guys are lame. I’m simply calling it like it is. A lot of you I would avoid in both real life and games because you basically do nothing but tear people down.

It’s no wonder people don’t really post videos for this community. It’s no wonder xsorsus got to a point where he said he wouldn’t post anymore (even though he did). He has more patience than me.

Oh, and one last thing: I’m done on this thread. I have nothing more to say while shutting down my critics. There’s nothing left to do but claim victory and move on. Happy hunting!

Chopps.5047:

You guys need a serious chill pill. You’re way too quick to attack people who try to bring positive energy into this community. I don’t know if it’s the lack of real human contact or what that causes it but I’m not pouting when I say some of you guys are lame. I’m simply calling it like it is. A lot of you I would avoid in both real life and games because you basically do nothing but tear people down.

Criticizing builds, abilities, and mechanics is a good thing, and generally imperative to the health of any gaming community. I certainly haven’t read all of your posts, but it seems that every time I see you comment here on the forums it’s always in defense of some maligned mechanic or ability. I’ve never seen you acknowledge that there are genuinely problematic and lackluster abilities floating around. You seem hellbent on bringing positivity in here for the sake of positivity, and that strikes me as neither fair nor useful.

xev.9476:

Chopps.5047:

You guys need a serious chill pill. You’re way too quick to attack people who try to bring positive energy into this community. I don’t know if it’s the lack of real human contact or what that causes it but I’m not pouting when I say some of you guys are lame. I’m simply calling it like it is. A lot of you I would avoid in both real life and games because you basically do nothing but tear people down.

Criticizing builds, abilities, and mechanics is a good thing, and generally imperative to the health of any gaming community. I certainly haven’t read all of your posts, but it seems that every time I see you comment here on the forums it’s always in defense of some maligned mechanic or ability. I’ve never seen you acknowledge that there are genuinely problematic and lackluster abilities floating around. You seem hellbent on bringing positivity in here for the sake of positivity, and that strikes me as neither fair nor useful.

I’m glad Chopps is looking for effective ways to utilize things like spirits which most people deem as worthless and won’t even bother with, but there is a feeling that when he does so he’s acting like there’s no problem with the skill at all, and that’s why I think people criticize him so much.

Looking at whirling defense for example, it does have a few somewhat useful functions like reflection and vulnerability, but just because something has a few uses doesn’t mean its a sub-par skill overall and could use some buffs. When you try to point out these uses you can make the skill sound like it doesn’t have any issues at all which can be far from the case.

On the other side of things I’m sure some of us are the opposite and when we criticize a skill we make it sound completely worthless when there are situations where it can be viable like Chopps tries to show in his video.

I’m glad to see I’m not the only one using spirits this way in dungeons =)

I hope any dev reading this doesn’t think that this means spirits are fine, though. They still need to be made invulnerable, while having a shorter duration as balance. There’s just no way around this.

Spirits are broken. Sure, you COULD make them work in some fights, assuming you convince your teammates to stay in range but not too close, and to not pull the boss towards it, not even considering that many encounters have radial AoEs.
And even then, as many said, only the passive is useful ( talking pve ).

To tolerate all this hassle and vulnerability, the effects are not good enough.
A CHANCE to set on fire for a couple seconds, gain swiftness or 2s protection is not enough to eat up a slot unless you’re against very specific encounters and can bug the spirit somewhere safe AND in reach.

Whirling is ok, people complain about it because its the worse reflect of any class, and the damage strapped on doesnt really impress that much. Still, it’s salvagiable and has uses, personally i use it for karka farming and works ok

Also, don’t want to be rude but:

Also, no mention of my reaction time using whirling defense in the first clip? And no props for a tutorial on how to escape a thief? Noooo. Let’s just make fun of spirits. You guys are lame sometimes IMHO. Don’t expect any more videos from me.

Here, have a cookie. * Gives cookie*
Next time dont post content/discuss if your not prone to criticism. If you just want attention, go to that ranger fetish podcast with a horrible name again, where everyone is happy and pets crit for 20k apparently. You knew the answers EXACTLY before posting. Well, unless you really want cookies…

Aegis.9724:

Whirling is ok, people complain about it because its the worse reflect of any class, and the damage strapped on doesnt really impress that much. Still, it’s salvagiable and has uses, personally i use it for karka farming and works ok

Other than the reflect, to me the skill shines at being able to give up to 12 stacks of vulnerability in a full channel. Makes it rrreeeaallll easy to drop people when they’re taking 12% extra damage. Heck, any stacks of vulnerability make it easier to drop enemies.

Rewatch the video. Watch the spirit effect on the UI. Take note of how much of the fight he spends out of range of the spirit passive. Take note of where he was standing when he was out of range of the spirit passive. Take note of where his party was standing for most of the fight and compare that to where he was standing when he moved out of range of the spirits. Also note the spirit actives were 100% useless in this video.

Spirits are terrible and this video showed spirits not doing anything for the ranger about 50% of the time and doing nothing for most of the party 100% of the time. This is like posting a video of a pet not dieing because it was a bear on passive 50% of the time. A warrior banner can be placed in the middle of the mobs, doesn’t rely on procs, doesn’t require line of site to protect it and doesn’t get killed by a slight breeze. Then consider that shouts perform similair roles to spirits without any of the drawbacks.

Spirits should have never made it to launch with their current design. They suck. Too much of skill balance and design was focused around sPvP and not enough on making terrible mechanics viable in PvE. The game is very focused on casual content so the devs don’t feel pressured to fix things like this, especially given that the mechanic is such a failure that a total redesign is optimal.

I’m not attacking you (if I wanted to do that I’d pick on how you played with the skills you used, not the skills themselves – or bringing a bear in WvW) but I do think it’s important to point out how little value you (and more importantly, your party) got from those spirits in that video.