Guild Wars 2

So, they are getting Spiked Armour as a minor trait in Defense, that is pretty OP and will make it very hard for us to kill them in WvW/PvP due to our damage style. I’m hoping they at least change it so it becomes an Adept, swapped with Armoured Attack, then it may compete with Dogged March, but now its just candy.

Against power ranger, yeah. I don’t see it op, you won’t engage with RF, that’s it. It’s useless against condi ranger. Think in the other hand : condi regen BM bunker (who usually already run toughness as as secondary stat) will have 55 % damage reduction (while perma regen) opening a fight (without toughness). It’s crazy, you can almost negate a first thief burst without to do nothing.

I’m not really worried. They have to choose between Deflect Missiles/Dogged March and Balanced Stance/Cleansing Ire now.

borya.2964:

Against power ranger, yeah. I don’t see it op, you won’t engage with RF, that’s it. It’s useless against condi ranger. Think in the other hand : condi regen BM bunker (who usually already run toughness as as secondary stat) will have 55 % damage reduction (while perma regen) opening a fight (without toughness). It’s crazy, you can almost negate a first thief burst without to do nothing.

Against anything that does crits. Esp against Power Ranger, Opening strikes procs spiked armor and then you take 3500 damage to use a RF. The CDs are the same, so it basically kills power ranger totally, with a minor trait. Condi is no better off, axes will proc it just the same, then you are taking 350 damage per attack, god forbid you hit more than 1 warrior with the bounce. Let’s say you hit a warrior with Split blade, the first axe procs, then the other 4 result in you taking 1400 damage. Or a war can just stand on your bonfire and you take 3150 damage! WvW Zerg will be impossible. It’s a 50% up time and totally passive, minor trait. How can you think its not OP as all kitten?

Bark skin is nice, sure, but Nature’s Protection already negated thieves 1st burst without doing anything. They only need to do 2k dmg to get you off 90% which is near pointless to even think about, its an AA or two 1st.

Sevans.4619:

I’m not really worried. They have to choose between Deflect Missiles/Dogged March and Balanced Stance/Cleansing Ire now.

Deflect Missiles doesn’t even come into it. Although they have that for the rest of the time Spiked Armour is on CD. Spiked Armour is minor so they get it anyway.

Wow, its almost like you’ll need to knock them back and proc the reflect, then maybe check your nails or brush some burs out of your pet’s coat… maybe even in stealth for most of that time… and then blast the hell out of them with rapid fire as they lose the retaliation.

Elevate your game. The cooldown gap is on the same timer as Rapid fire too…

Nike.2631:

Wow, its almost like you’ll need to knock them back and proc the reflect, then maybe check your nails or brush some burs out of your pet’s coat… maybe even in stealth for most of that time… and then blast the hell out of them with rapid fire as they lose the retaliation…

And then what? Wait another 10s for either of those skills to CD or just check your nails again? You know, like, because a warrior does not go down to one RF. You need sustained damage, which is exactly what Spiked Armour is designed to prevent.

Nike.2631:

Elevate your game. The cooldown gap is on the same timer as Rapid fire too…

I’m not talking about reflect or even RF. I’m talking about them getting 50% uptime on retaliation as a minor trait. It is all well and good to “elevate your game” but it still means you now cannot even attack the warrior with any weapons or attacks for 50% of the time, assuming they have no boon duration.

MH Axe and SB would be even worse, I included the split blade example, it would be the same for Poison Volley. If Spiked Armour is not up, you hit with all 5 attacks (like you should) the 1st is a crit, you take upwards of 1400 damage. Or the Bonfire example, one crit out of those will proc the retaliation and then they just stand still in it for you to lose 20% health.

Even if you do watch for the retaliation and get attacks in while it is on CD perfectly and never take damage from it (which would be about 350), it still means you will only be able to attack for 4/10s (assuming 20% boon duration) and you still need to actually proc the retaliation, before you can wait for it to end. I’m not sure if that proc crit is also included with retaliation, so it may cost you 350 health to even proc it, meaning its impossible to avoid it.

Pretty much, since all warriors run with some defense in WvW, Barrage should be now renamed to Suicide.

I don’t get why people can’t see how bad this is, they get Spiked Armor and Adrenal Health as Minor traits!?

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Nike.2631:

Wow, its almost like you’ll need to knock them back and proc the reflect, then maybe check your nails or brush some burs out of your pet’s coat… maybe even in stealth for most of that time… and then blast the hell out of them with rapid fire as they lose the retaliation…

And then what? Wait another 10s for either of those skills to CD or just check your nails again? You know, like, because a warrior does not go down to one RF. You need sustained damage, which is exactly what Spiked Armour is designed to prevent.

Nike.2631:

Elevate your game. The cooldown gap is on the same timer as Rapid fire too…

I’m not talking about reflect or even RF. I’m talking about them getting 50% uptime on retaliation as a minor trait. It is all well and good to “elevate your game” but it still means you now cannot even attack the warrior with any weapons or attacks for 50% of the time, assuming they have no boon duration.

MH Axe and SB would be even worse, I included the split blade example, it would be the same for Poison Volley. If Spiked Armour is not up, you hit with all 5 attacks (like you should) the 1st is a crit, you take upwards of 1400 damage. Or the Bonfire example, one crit out of those will proc the retaliation and then they just stand still in it for you to lose 20% health.

Even if you do watch for the retaliation and get attacks in while it is on CD perfectly and never take damage from it (which would be about 350), it still means you will only be able to attack for 4/10s (assuming 20% boon duration) and you still need to actually proc the retaliation, before you can wait for it to end. I’m not sure if that proc crit is also included with retaliation, so it may cost you 350 health to even proc it, meaning its impossible to avoid it.

Pretty much, since all warriors run with some defense in WvW, Barrage should be now renamed to Suicide.

I don’t get why people can’t see how bad this is, they get Spiked Armor and Adrenal Health as Minor traits!?

I think its pretty balanced. You shouldn’t be able to kill all classes with a single RF. 50% retal uptime on warrs isn’t bad as well, you just have to change your playstyle a little bit. The new traits allows us to do just that. Instead of brute-force RFing all day, you can trait for Remorseless and time your LB autoattacks if you can’t afford damaging yourself with RF.

I’ll say this slowly then.

THIS. IS. NOT. ABOUT. RAPID FIRE.

kiwituatara.6053:

I think its pretty balanced. You shouldn’t be able to kill all classes with a single RF. 50% retal uptime on warrs isn’t bad as well, you just have to change your playstyle a little bit. The new traits allows us to do just that. Instead of brute-force RFing all day, you can trait for Remorseless and time your LB autoattacks if you can’t afford damaging yourself with RF.

You can’t even kill a full glass zerker warrior with a single Rapid Fire after blowing an elite and all your damage increasing utilities.

At any rate it seems like this trait would give warriors the ability to kill other professions who rely on multi-hit skills by simply standing still and occasionally healing up. In what way is this not passive play?

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

I’ll say this slowly then.

THIS. IS. NOT. ABOUT. RAPID FIRE.

I’ll speak slower then…

Reflect
only
ticks
once
per
hit
so
cope

Ehecatl.9172:

At any rate it seems like this trait would give warriors the ability to kill other professions who rely on multi-hit skills by simply standing still and occasionally healing up. In what way is this not passive play?

And yet the Devs have laid it out as the way they intend to go, so I guess the appropriate answer is “they don’t think your ‘passive play’ argument is all that compelling. try another one.”

Ehecatl.9172:

kiwituatara.6053:

I think its pretty balanced. You shouldn’t be able to kill all classes with a single RF. 50% retal uptime on warrs isn’t bad as well, you just have to change your playstyle a little bit. The new traits allows us to do just that. Instead of brute-force RFing all day, you can trait for Remorseless and time your LB autoattacks if you can’t afford damaging yourself with RF.

You can’t even kill a full glass zerker warrior with a single Rapid Fire after blowing an elite and all your damage increasing utilities.

At any rate it seems like this trait would give warriors the ability to kill other professions who rely on multi-hit skills by simply standing still and occasionally healing up. In what way is this not passive play?

1. Warrior retal uptime is 50%, you can still RF
2. Once warrior retal is up, switch to non-RF skills
3. Time your remorseless. Autoattack will still do massive damage

Seriously, the ranger community’s been spoiled with RF. Does nobody remember the time where LB AA DPS was higher than RF? You’ll just be switching between meta-RF and old-AA playstyle according to the situation. Its much more interesting than just pumping out RF every time its off cooldown.

kiwituatara.6053:

1. Warrior retal uptime is 50%, you can still RF
2. Once warrior retal is up, switch to non-RF skills
3. Time your remorseless. Autoattack will still do massive damage

Seriously, the ranger community’s been spoiled with RF. Does nobody remember the time where LB AA DPS was higher than RF? You’ll just be switching between meta-RF and old-AA playstyle according to the situation. Its much more interesting than just pumping out RF every time its off cooldown.

1. 50% is a lot, especially from a single trait.
2. You mean non-Rapid Fire, Barrage, Splitblades, Whirling Defense, Poison Volley, Bonfire, or Hunter’s Call. A lot of ranger abilities are multi-hit skills and not all of them do nearly as much damage as Rapid Fire. Poor Hunter’s Call is already weak. If that procs Spiked Armor near the start the ranger will eviscerate their own HP while doing almost nothing to the warrior.
3. You’re assuming I will absolutely have Remorseless in my build. Not all ranger builds are power based.

Check my post history. I don’t run power longbow. I just don’t fancy suddenly taking a ton of damage because a passive minor trait was off cooldown when I tried to use a skill for some extra damage. Hopefully it will at least have an icon on the boon display so it can be tracked, but a lot of passives don’t.

kiwituatara.6053:

1. Warrior retal uptime is 50%, you can still RF
2. Once warrior retal is up, switch to non-RF skills
3. Time your remorseless. Autoattack will still do massive damage

Seriously, the ranger community’s been spoiled with RF. Does nobody remember the time where LB AA DPS was higher than RF? You’ll just be switching between meta-RF and old-AA playstyle according to the situation. Its much more interesting than just pumping out RF every time its off cooldown.

Your advice boils down to “Just don’t use skills 50% of the time.”

If my available counter play is “Do nothing” there is a bit of a problem.

Edit: I’m not saying there is a problem. I prefer to wait and see how it plays out. Your advice/argument is just really bad.

Ehecatl.9172:

kiwituatara.6053:

1. Warrior retal uptime is 50%, you can still RF
2. Once warrior retal is up, switch to non-RF skills
3. Time your remorseless. Autoattack will still do massive damage

Seriously, the ranger community’s been spoiled with RF. Does nobody remember the time where LB AA DPS was higher than RF? You’ll just be switching between meta-RF and old-AA playstyle according to the situation. Its much more interesting than just pumping out RF every time its off cooldown.

1. 50% is a lot, especially from a single trait.
2. You mean non-Rapid Fire, Barrage, Splitblades, Whirling Defense, Poison Volley, Bonfire, or Hunter’s Call. A lot of ranger abilities are multi-hit skills and not all of them do nearly as much damage as Rapid Fire. Poor Hunter’s Call is already weak. If that procs Spiked Armor near the start the ranger will eviscerate their own HP while doing almost nothing to the warrior.
3. You’re assuming I will absolutely have Remorseless in my build. Not all ranger builds are power based.

Check my post history. I don’t run power longbow. I just don’t fancy suddenly taking a ton of damage because a passive minor trait was off cooldown when I tried to use a skill for some extra damage. Hopefully it will at least have an icon on the boon display so it can be tracked, but a lot of passives don’t.

Retal is a problem on skills that hits multiple times. What I’m suggesting is to switch to skills such as LB (AA,3,4) GS maul, etc. I used power LB as an example as it is the most popular multi-hitting channeling skill right now.

The retal dmg you get from splitblade/bonfire will sting a little, but it won’t hard counter you. Splitblade retal will probably hit you up to 1850ish occasionally, bonfire is pulse per second and I doubt warriors will want to stand in it much anyways.

Hunter’s call and whirling defence are a different story since they’re terrible skills already. Those skills should be buffed instead of nerfing warrior retal.

Unspecified.9142:

Your advice boils down to “Just don’t use skills 50% of the time.”
If my available counter play is “Do nothing” there is a bit of a problem.
Edit: I’m not saying there is a problem. I prefer to wait and see how it plays out. Your advice/argument is just really bad.

Exactly, if the only thing you can do to is nothing, then its mindless. And, even if you took all the multi hit attacks away from us, it still means that 50% of the time, you cannot attack a warrior, its just stupid.

Retaliation is not a problem at all, if this trait stayed as GM where it belongs then you just have to deal with it (I use it all the time as it is a great trait) but when they give it to every warrior who takes defense, pretty much all, it is a problem. It should at least be a choice between dogged march and this or Cleansing Ire, Defy pain etc. To give it as a minor trait is the problem.

Access to some form of boon stripping would take some of the issue out of this as the ranger for the most part seems to be designed to be death by a thousand cuts style play with maul being the only exception.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Unspecified.9142:

Your advice boils down to “Just don’t use skills 50% of the time.”
If my available counter play is “Do nothing” there is a bit of a problem.
Edit: I’m not saying there is a problem. I prefer to wait and see how it plays out. Your advice/argument is just really bad.

Exactly, if the only thing you can do to is nothing, then its mindless. And, even if you took all the multi hit attacks away from us, it still means that 50% of the time, you cannot attack a warrior, its just stupid.

Retaliation is not a problem at all, if this trait stayed as GM where it belongs then you just have to deal with it (I use it all the time as it is a great trait) but when they give it to every warrior who takes defense, pretty much all, it is a problem. It should at least be a choice between dogged march and this or Cleansing Ire, Defy pain etc. To give it as a minor trait is the problem.

My advice was not “do nothing”, its simply finding ways to deal more dmg with skills that doesn’t require multiple hits. The DPS on LB AA is still very strong.

And you will still take 350 damage every time you AA. 50% of the time. So in order to avoid that, you need to do nothing, at least 50% of the time.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

And you will still take 350 damage every time you AA. 50% of the time. So in order to avoid that, you need to do nothing, at least 50% of the time.

I never said anything about avoiding the damage entirely. I merely stated that you should switch to attacks that doesnt rely on multi-hits to reduce the effectiveness of retal.

LB AA can do 2k-5k per second, and potentially higher AA spike dmg with new traits. If you think thats still not enough to offset a mere 350 damage you take back per AA, then I cannot help you.

As both ranger and warr spvp player i’d like to remind you that shield stance is 24s cooldown traited, and also even after successfully reflecting all of RF, there’s still the matter of following up on it. And usually tha ranger’s miles away from the warr, who’s at least half pure melee…

@ kiwituatara
I’m not even talking about LB. Forget LB. Any attacks, but especially multi-hit things like Bonfire, Splitblade, Poison Volley, all traps etc. You cannot avoid the damage entirely, its just not possible. Retaliation is fine, the trait is fine, what is wrong is that it is a minor trait and they get it by default if they choose Defense line and there is no counterplay to it except to try and burst through it against the rest of the Defense line they have, or do nothing until it goes away.

@ZeftheWicked
We are not even talking about reflecting attacks.
We (well I) am talking about Spiked Armour being moved to a minor trait from a GM (with added toughness as well.).
But yeah, they also have the choice then of taking “Shield Master” in Adept which gives reflection on block as well as might. Btw, you can use sword offhand to reflect projectiles too, every 15s.
And a warrior can gap close with a Ranger in seconds.