We need a real mechanic to counter stealth.
Sorry to say it but that’s clearly an L2P issue. Even tanky builds can shred thiefs with the use of bristleback + rapidfire. Also you need to get a feeling about the duration of their stealth. There’s a ghost thief build around using traps and trapper runes but they can’t kill anything if you don’t try to chase them down, just move on.
(edited by Shirk.6421)
Sorry to say it but that’s clearly an L2P issue. Even tanky builds can shred thiefs with the use of bristleback + rapidfire. Also you need to get a feeling about the duration of their stealth. There’s a ghost thief build around using traps and trapper runes but they can’t kill anything if you don’t try to chase them down, just move on.
This is not the point. Me as playing druid i have enough breakstuns, heals and condition clears to stand a thief. If the thief is tanky you can not take him down with an RF+Bristle unless you have the ideal conditions (max damage modifiers) that rarely happen in real world™.
In any case that doesn’t mean we have a meaningful way to counter those kind of builds. And we are lucky that we have a wonky utility, necros and eles have none so their only defense is to drop AoE and hope for the best.
That’s not skillful play, that’s luck. You can see in the video how that kind of builds where you can do nothing to counter is not fun to play against to. So my point stands.
(edited by anduriell.6280)
We have the tools. Watch for BP and stop them. You can fear them, taunt them, knock them back, pull them in, knock them down, stun them, daze them. You can taunt them out of stealth. You can fear them out of SR. You can channel-follow them in stealth. Now add in the sic ’em you talked about and that thief is going to have a tough time.
You aren’t going to stop them with a single LB 4 any more than you’re going to stop a druid with a single backstab.
We have the tools. Watch for BP and stop them. You can fear them, taunt them, knock them back, pull them in, knock them down, stun them, daze them. You can taunt them out of stealth. You can fear them out of SR. You can channel-follow them in stealth. Now add in the sic ’em you talked about and that thief is going to have a tough time.
You aren’t going to stop them with a single LB 4 any more than you’re going to stop a druid with a single backstab.
Actually the only one i could think if could work is taunt, but with such a short range and duration is not useful at all. The thief won’t be hitting the pet and even if for some miracle it get caught in the taunt, after 1 second (because it will need one second to hit) will be stealthed again.
Other conditions they can cleanse when they are in stealth. Skills give them break-stun + stealth, the heal cleanse impairing conditions + stealth.
So although the tools are there they are not designed to counter permanent stealth/invisibility.
It is true they won’t be doing much direct damage, this kind of builds go full condi, but is a battle you can not win because there is no counter. I am not asking for a nerf, i think the thief with the actual mechanics is very fine.
I am only asking for real mechanics to be able to counter, being the taunt to insta-reveal and have more access and range or whatever.
What I meant is there is a telegraph on their stealth skills. They can renew stealth once their in it maybe, but once they come out, they need to do something like put down a black powder and leap in it several times. When they do that, you can CC them while visible, or AoE CC them as they leap in it again. So all of the methods I list will work to prevent their stealth.
Example, you see BP go down after he does a pistol sneak attack or whatever, you hilt bash him. He uses hide in shadows and you glyph of equality interrupt it. Another blinding powder goes down but your LB swap is on CD so he stealths before you can stop him. However you know he’s leaping into the same BP to increase his stealth, so you glyph of tides him away from it. He’s about to lose his stealth so he puts down a SR, but you were expecting that and wolf fear him out of it.
Anduriell… I spend 80% of my time dueling on 1v1 servers, also against GOOD thiefs and I can tell you one thing. We have the tools to really, really kitten them up. In the last 5 days, I didn’t lose a single duel against a thief (were about 120 duels against thiefs those last 5 days).
There are so many ways we can interrupt them in their playflow. Some examples: If someone uses shadow refugee hop in CAF, put a 3 into it, stand in the middle and pop 5. Taunt hits even if the enemy is stealthed, you can predict movement, mostly when they use the stolen item. Time important skills like LB 3 or 4 so that they hit at the end of a dodge/evade skill and don’t go into the void. Enable attacks to switch targets when you switch targets. You can lure them out of stealth by casting a rapid fire, when they come out of stealth simply target them and the rapid fire goes right into their face. Time your big CDs properly. Be aware where thieves port, pay attention from where they shadowstep – they can port back there. Move. Unless you know you can lure the thief into an attack, be on the move. Bristleback F2 + Taunt + RF or Hilt Bash and Maul downs almost every thief if done right, dont open up with it, wait for them to blow some of their defensive CDs. On GS for example, Quickdraw with GS4 is pretty much your best friend. Don’t fight thieves in melee inside of their blinding fields. I hope some of those tips help you out.
(edited by Shirk.6421)
Aside the discussion about the ways we do counter thiefs/stealth.
Do you think every proffession has the right to counter stealth?
Aside the discussion about the ways we do counter thiefs/stealth.
Do you think every proffession has the right to counter stealth?
Countering stealth might be the wrong way to phrase it. I think every profession should be able to be killed if they want to fight (PvP I’m looking at you.) And without being that great at much but ranger, I think every profession can kill a thief even that brings tons of stealth.
Sorry to say it but that’s clearly an L2P issue. Even tanky builds can shred thiefs with the use of bristleback + rapidfire. Also you need to get a feeling about the duration of their stealth. There’s a ghost thief build around using traps and trapper runes but they can’t kill anything if you don’t try to chase them down, just move on.
You are so very wrong.
Just because you don’t have the same issues doesn’t mean that the rest of us can’t play because we do.
Not keeping all IT jobs here is a major reason IT is so bad HERE. 33y IT 10y IT Security
Not sure if we’r talking about the stealth mechanic or the theif profession. theives are kinda weak atm, I think its much harder for them to counter our heals than it is for us to counter their stealth/evade/movment etc. havn’t had an issue with even a single thief since the big trait line rework (6 mounths ago?) they used to be very scary for rangers.
Now even if you cant kill them they also cant kill you so its fine.
Stealth as a mechanic is also not that of a big deal now that so many rotations can “reset the fight”, almost every profession can do that now. Also most professions can kite around 1-3 ppl with the ability to runaway anytime. If you think about that, druid got the tools to stealth as much as a thief(LB 3, smokescale, CS, trap rune, siamoth etc..)
I think its a non issue, I’ll re-consider after the upcoming and well disorved, damage buff for thives.
(edited by LughLongArm.5460)
Thank you fellow rangers for setting this OP straight.
Ranger probably has more ways to deal with stealth than most other professions.
We have access to AoE fear and taunt, depending on the pet we choose. We have Spike Trap which is an excellent way to prevent a thief from getting off their initial backstab. We have Rapid Fire which tracks targets who try to use stealth to avoid it and Barrage on the same weapon for AoE cripple. Our pets will automatically respond by attacking a thief even if we’re immobilized. The sword’s auto attack can also be used to stick to stealthed opponents to keep up pressure. And of course we have a 2,000 range instant cast 6 second reveal.
Ranger is pretty good at hunting thieves, all things considered. If they didn’t have their crazy disengage potential and mobility we’d probably have found a niche as a thief hunter a long time ago.
Yeah people are talking about thieves that want to fight. The ones OP is talking about are the ones who NEVER want to die.
They are the reason every character I have ever taken into wvw has atleast 5 stealth traps. Don’t be stupid and chase them down forever, thats what they want. You out of cooldowns chasing them and all alone so they can come around and rip you down. That is their game.
Yeah people are talking about thieves that want to fight. The ones OP is talking about are the ones who NEVER want to die.
That’s true of any profession. Apothecary condi rangers have been trolling people for years. There is one ranger on YB who I believe posts here that just hangs out by the sentry near red keep, and jumps into the water when things get bad enough. I’ve seen like 7 people chasing him in circles, dying 1 by 1.
If someone wants to fight, they are usually vulnerable to something or other, or at least should be. If they want to troll, don’t play the game.
Yeah people are talking about thieves that want to fight. The ones OP is talking about are the ones who NEVER want to die.
If they want to troll, don’t play the game.
I did say that in the section you chose not to quote.
Yeah people are talking about thieves that want to fight. The ones OP is talking about are the ones who NEVER want to die.
They are the reason every character I have ever taken into wvw has atleast 5 stealth traps. Don’t be stupid and chase them down forever, thats what they want. You out of cooldowns chasing them and all alone so they can come around and rip you down. That is their game.
Exactly my point.
The thieves that want to fight there are two outcomes: you win or you die. And then yes, that could be an L2P issue.
The ones i’m talking about is the ones that abuse their stealth mechanic to harass other players. They won’t kill you by themselves, but you will have to deal with that problem constantly or you have to leave.
They can keep a Keep indefinitely challenged and there is no point to try to defend it because you wont be able to dissuade him to leave.
They can be harassing a full blob and stay alive while if you let him can cap any camp or whatever.
Still i think the stealth itself is not wrong. Playing this kind of builds gives the thief (or the mesmer in it’s moment) an strong and distinct gameplay which make fights interesting and challenging.
The problem is that almost no other profession than the DH has a real way to counter the stealth or force that player to fight. And i think every profession needs a way, same as boon ripping.
It doesn’t need to be reveal, but taunt or fear in the ranger in it’s actual state is not a solution neither an effective way to fight it. Same as a necro that tells me that drops AoE like crazy and then maybe if can catch the hidden thief, total counter.
If you had a gs + s/wh warrior in full ascended nomads contesting your keep, that would be nearly impossible to stop as well. This isn’t thief specific, it’s just trolls tend to prefer thief.
If you had a gs + s/wh warrior in full ascended nomads contesting your keep, that would be nearly impossible to stop as well. This isn’t thief specific, it’s just trolls tend to prefer thief.
I agree but at least you’ll be able to fight against that warrior.
With stealth they can be trolling to to the end to come and that’s very frustrating because you can do nothing not even reliably attack them, except carry around a bunch of stealth traps.