“Observe, learn and counter.”
Weapon issues to address
Both 1h melee weapons are clunky.
Wait what? What other than sword is a 1 hand melee weapon? Dagger?
No word since last year. Only plausible one I could ever see happening is removing or reducing the cast time off [Hornet’s Sting] for a more reliable evade. Keep asking for it and we shall receive (maybe).
PET PRECISION & DPS TESTS -OUTDATED-
Will update once Path of Fire releases.
Will update once Path of Fire releases.
Both 1h melee weapons are clunky.
Wait what? What other than sword is a 1 hand melee weapon? Dagger?
An Axe.
“Observe, learn and counter.”
Both 1h melee weapons are clunky.
Wait what? What other than sword is a 1 hand melee weapon? Dagger?
An Axe.
Axe on ranger isn’t melee, its a mid range projectile weapon
Delecroix – Ranger master race
Axe on ranger isn’t melee, its a mid range projectile weapon
That only is worth using in melee range because #2.
“Observe, learn and counter.”
Ah I wasn’t aware that was how it worked in that case my greatsword is a shield and my longbow is just blinding powder
Delecroix – Ranger master race
Ah I wasn’t aware that was how it worked in that case my greatsword is a shield and my longbow is just blinding powder
Well if that’s how you use them…
“Observe, learn and counter.”
Ah I wasn’t aware that was how it worked in that case my greatsword is a shield and my longbow is just blinding powder
Well if that’s how you use them…
No offense, but if you’re going to make such a loaded statement as you did in the OP and then make a fundamental error in either the way you put forward your argument or in your knowledge of the class, it does seriously damage the point you’re trying to make. Axe is a fantastic ranged weapon when there are 2 or more enemies – niche in its use sure, but it’s damage is either on par with sword or possibly even higher in that scenario.
Who’s a good boy? Not you, since you aggro’d the BLOODY CHAMP-
Ah I wasn’t aware that was how it worked in that case my greatsword is a shield and my longbow is just blinding powder
Well if that’s how you use them…
No offense, but if you’re going to make such a loaded statement as you did in the OP and then make a fundamental error in either the way you put forward your argument or in your knowledge of the class, it does seriously damage the point you’re trying to make. Axe is a fantastic ranged weapon when there are 2 or more enemies – niche in its use sure, but it’s damage is either on par with sword or possibly even higher in that scenario.
Not necessarily. If you don’t have a slightest clue that Axe is not used in any Power build that would focus on auto-hits, or that any other multi-hitting power weapon (GS/Sword) beats it by a long shot – than I don’t really need to admit errors that I didn’t make.
Main-Hand axe is primary Condition Damage weapon (because there is no other weapon for this purpose), and if you are using it for Ranged Combat – you are as good as forsaking yourself.
So ask yourself this.
What is using a condition weapon that only fulfills it’s role in melee range called? You could even call GS a ranged weapon because it has #4 and Swoop on pretty much 900 and 1100 range. The only difference is that Axe is a projectile weapon and it’s Auto-Attacks (lower source of damage) don’t require melee range. What they have in common is that they only fulfill their role in melee range.
But if you are using it for ranged combat, no offense, you are sincerely bad. Shortbow would be better and even that is considered one of the worst weapons on the Ranger.
If you believe Axe beats Sword in DPS than I don’t really feel the need to explain anything. Everybody knows, even the newcomers that Sword is the best Auto-Attack DPS weapon, so far.
Your arguments are invalid.
“Observe, learn and counter.”
(edited by Tragic Positive.9356)
Ah I wasn’t aware that was how it worked in that case my greatsword is a shield and my longbow is just blinding powder
Well if that’s how you use them…
No offense, but if you’re going to make such a loaded statement as you did in the OP and then make a fundamental error in either the way you put forward your argument or in your knowledge of the class, it does seriously damage the point you’re trying to make. Axe is a fantastic ranged weapon when there are 2 or more enemies – niche in its use sure, but it’s damage is either on par with sword or possibly even higher in that scenario.
Not necessarily. If you don’t have a slightest clue that Axe is not used in any Power build that would focus on auto-hits, or that any other multi-hitting power weapon (GS/Sword) beats it by a long shot – than I don’t really need to admit errors that I didn’t make.
Main-Hand axe is primary Condition Damage weapon (because there is no other weapon for this purpose), and if you are using it for Ranged Combat – you are as good as forsaking yourself.
So ask yourself this.
What is using a condition weapon that only fulfills it’s role in melee range called? You could even call GS a ranged weapon because it has #4 and Swoop on pretty much 900 and 1100 range. The only difference is that Axe is a projectile weapon and it’s Auto-Attacks (lower source of damage) don’t require melee range. What they have in common is that they only fulfill their role in melee range.
But if you are using it for ranged combat, no offense, you are sincerely bad. Shortbow would be better and even that is considered one of the worst weapons on the Ranger.If you believe Axe beats Sword in DPS than I don’t really feel the need to explain anything. Everybody knows, even the newcomers that Sword is the best Auto-Attack DPS weapon, so far.
Your arguments are invalid.
Oh yeah, sword DPS trumps Axe – on a single target. On 2 targets, the axe will hit your primary target twice, as well as granting a stack of might every time it hits an enemy. It is in situations with more than one target that axe really shines, and can find its place in a power build. Also, greatsword is by no means a power weapon for the ranger – just because it doesn’t have conditions doesn’t make it power. It’s got an evade on AA, a block, an evading dash, and a stun – that’s a defensive weapon first and a power weapon second.
Who’s a good boy? Not you, since you aggro’d the BLOODY CHAMP-
Oh yeah, sword DPS trumps Axe – on a single target. On 2 targets, the axe will hit your primary target twice, as well as granting a stack of might every time it hits an enemy. It is in situations with more than one target that axe really shines, and can find its place in a power build. Also, greatsword is by no means a power weapon for the ranger – just because it doesn’t have conditions doesn’t make it power. It’s got an evade on AA, a block, an evading dash, and a stun – that’s a defensive weapon first and a power weapon second.
Since you obviously won’t go test anything at all – this would be pointless.
You don’t take into account neither attack animations, the stat coefficients, targets hit nor anything important.
You see only what you want to see. Greatsword is a part of one of the meta DPS builds and is a burst weapon for Zerk PvP builds. There goes your “Let’s tank with Greatsword” argument.
If you don’t want to add anything important into this thread apart from your emotions that make me explain thing you’ll ignore regardless – don’t add anything at all. This thread strayed from it’s point because of this a long time ago and you don’t really seem like being interested in the topic anyways. You just came here to doubt/argue.
“Observe, learn and counter.”
Oh yeah, sword DPS trumps Axe – on a single target. On 2 targets, the axe will hit your primary target twice, as well as granting a stack of might every time it hits an enemy. It is in situations with more than one target that axe really shines, and can find its place in a power build. Also, greatsword is by no means a power weapon for the ranger – just because it doesn’t have conditions doesn’t make it power. It’s got an evade on AA, a block, an evading dash, and a stun – that’s a defensive weapon first and a power weapon second.
The first and third attack in the sword AA chain also cleave. I really don’t think there is any imaginable situation where axe outdamages sword to be honest.
Oh yeah, sword DPS trumps Axe – on a single target. On 2 targets, the axe will hit your primary target twice, as well as granting a stack of might every time it hits an enemy. It is in situations with more than one target that axe really shines, and can find its place in a power build. Also, greatsword is by no means a power weapon for the ranger – just because it doesn’t have conditions doesn’t make it power. It’s got an evade on AA, a block, an evading dash, and a stun – that’s a defensive weapon first and a power weapon second.
Since you obviously won’t go test anything at all – this would be pointless.
You don’t take into account neither attack animations, the stat coefficients, targets hit nor anything important.You see only what you want to see. Greatsword is a part of one of the meta DPS builds and is a burst weapon for Zerk PvP builds. There goes your “Let’s tank with Greatsword” argument.
If you don’t want to add anything important into this thread apart from your emotions that make me explain thing you’ll ignore regardless – don’t add anything at all. This thread strayed from it’s point because of this a long time ago and you don’t really seem like being interested in the topic anyways. You just came here to doubt/argue.
I’m sorry you feel that way. I came to make my opinions on the weapon known and try to encourage you to look at the issue from a different perspective, but if you’re simply going to attack me for having a different opinion from yours, then I really don’t think that a healthy discussion can occur here.
Who’s a good boy? Not you, since you aggro’d the BLOODY CHAMP-
Oh yeah, sword DPS trumps Axe – on a single target. On 2 targets, the axe will hit your primary target twice, as well as granting a stack of might every time it hits an enemy. It is in situations with more than one target that axe really shines, and can find its place in a power build. Also, greatsword is by no means a power weapon for the ranger – just because it doesn’t have conditions doesn’t make it power. It’s got an evade on AA, a block, an evading dash, and a stun – that’s a defensive weapon first and a power weapon second.
Since you obviously won’t go test anything at all – this would be pointless.
You don’t take into account neither attack animations, the stat coefficients, targets hit nor anything important.You see only what you want to see. Greatsword is a part of one of the meta DPS builds and is a burst weapon for Zerk PvP builds. There goes your “Let’s tank with Greatsword” argument.
If you don’t want to add anything important into this thread apart from your emotions that make me explain thing you’ll ignore regardless – don’t add anything at all. This thread strayed from it’s point because of this a long time ago and you don’t really seem like being interested in the topic anyways. You just came here to doubt/argue.I’m sorry you feel that way. I came to make my opinions on the weapon known and try to encourage you to look at the issue from a different perspective, but if you’re simply going to attack me for having a different opinion from yours, then I really don’t think that a healthy discussion can occur here.
The issue, Potato, is that your conversation isn’t a matter of opinion. What Tragic was trying to tell you is fact, meaning it cannot be argued. It’s okay if you love the axe mainhand, but your personal taste isn’t what’s up for discussion.
Oh yeah, sword DPS trumps Axe – on a single target. On 2 targets, the axe will hit your primary target twice, as well as granting a stack of might every time it hits an enemy. It is in situations with more than one target that axe really shines, and can find its place in a power build. Also, greatsword is by no means a power weapon for the ranger – just because it doesn’t have conditions doesn’t make it power. It’s got an evade on AA, a block, an evading dash, and a stun – that’s a defensive weapon first and a power weapon second.
Since you obviously won’t go test anything at all – this would be pointless.
You don’t take into account neither attack animations, the stat coefficients, targets hit nor anything important.You see only what you want to see. Greatsword is a part of one of the meta DPS builds and is a burst weapon for Zerk PvP builds. There goes your “Let’s tank with Greatsword” argument.
If you don’t want to add anything important into this thread apart from your emotions that make me explain thing you’ll ignore regardless – don’t add anything at all. This thread strayed from it’s point because of this a long time ago and you don’t really seem like being interested in the topic anyways. You just came here to doubt/argue.I’m sorry you feel that way. I came to make my opinions on the weapon known and try to encourage you to look at the issue from a different perspective, but if you’re simply going to attack me for having a different opinion from yours, then I really don’t think that a healthy discussion can occur here.
The issue, Potato, is that your conversation isn’t a matter of opinion. What Tragic was trying to tell you is fact, meaning it cannot be argued. It’s okay if you love the axe mainhand, but your personal taste isn’t what’s up for discussion.
All I was trying to do was highlight a very niche use for the axe that I felt was overlooked. I won’t deny that this thread raises a lot of good points – our weapons are indeed in a sorry state of affairs, and Tragic is clearly passionate about the class. However, rather than doing what you did and politely informing me of inconsistencies in my argument, he opted to simply attack my intelligence. I feel that debating in that way only harms your points, and I’d rather not participate in a discussion where that is the way points are discussed.
Who’s a good boy? Not you, since you aggro’d the BLOODY CHAMP-
All I was trying to do was highlight a very niche use for the axe that I felt was overlooked. I won’t deny that this thread raises a lot of good points – our weapons are indeed in a sorry state of affairs, and Tragic is clearly passionate about the class. However, rather than doing what you did and politely informing me of inconsistencies in my argument, he opted to simply attack my intelligence. I feel that debating in that way only harms your points, and I’d rather not participate in a discussion where that is the way points are discussed.
I opted to attacking your awareness, that was not in the best shape.
Not intelligence. I am aware that I often sound arrogant.
I am sorry, if that helps, but I support the idea that people learn best the hard way.
But that’s because aggressive behavior fastens explanations up, if you don’t use it for mocking people. And even though I kept repeating that your example is wrong – you didn’t admit it. Going in circles wouldn’t help solve your lack of experience with Ranger Class – thus not moving anywhere with this thread either.
I don’t have any problem with explaining things, or teaching people, or making maths, analysis… And if I make a mistake I apologize and correct myself. But explaining facts to people who turn it down by assumptions – I do not really accept – because it makes it more difficult to teach others (who may take assumptions as facts).
Now objectively speaking – if I politely said: “Your example is wrong because numbers already say that axe deals far less damage than any other power weapon and deals condition damage only in melee – thus making it a primarily melee weapon”
Would you reply :“Thanks, I didn’t know that. I’ll look into it.”
Let’s be real. You most likely wouldn’t.
“People are wiser after the event” as the proverb says.
No harm done. I didn’t attack you. I just pointed out that your experience on Ranger class is still not perfect – which you can and will take hold of as the time goes, for sure.
Cheer up, fellow Ranger. We as a class have it far worse than this in the open. That’s why I can’t afford you being treated bad for playing ineffective weapon sets and I’ll do my best to help you guyz be wanted by community.
(edit: even if it means you’ll hate me for being straightforward. We wouldn’t really play much together if at all, so the risk is fair)
“Observe, learn and counter.”
(edited by Tragic Positive.9356)
In the right situation axe can out dps lb, (mainly mid range, axes can crit for 2k a pop with auto). The only time sword should get you killed is when you finished killing a target near a cliff and end up doing a leap off.
With 1h sword you have to get in and kill quick or wait for an opening and then do your thing. If you can’t put them away in 10 seconds you can switch weapons.
1h sword is our highest dps weapon not being able to use this is a great disadvantage on top of all they other we as rangers have. Fighting The giant champ in cs and the troll vm champ in silver waste is a great way to learn the timing. 1h sword also allows your pet to get more attacks in because of the cripple and its always close when you need it.
Math isn’t correct if you don’t include all of the elements. Axe is terrible when fighting one target. Fighting another ranger its going to perform better than the bow (mid range).
In order to properly understand the big picture,
everyone should fear becoming mentally clouded and obsessed with one small section of truth.
everyone should fear becoming mentally clouded and obsessed with one small section of truth.
(edited by Serraphin Storm.2369)
Snip.
Nah it’s cool, I understand where you’re coming from, and given the amount of…sub-optimal rangers out there, I can see how explaining things in painstaking detail to every single one of them is just not possible. I admit, I probably got more than a little stubborn there – despite the double hit and might stacking of axe, I’ll be honest and say I don’t know the motion values, so yeah, lack of experience on my part. Anyway, this is dragging on, and I’ll try to contribute something constructive here so that my presence in this thread isn’t a total waste.
A fix for the sword root was hinted at over a year ago by ANet (A simple ’we’re working on it’, and we all know how that goes). That aside, I remember hearing the argument that the sword’s damage may have to be nerfed if the root was fixed. With how well it synnergises with our traits and the excellent utility it brings due to the availability of an off-hand, there’d be almost no reason to use Greatsword at all outside of PvP, since Longbow can outburst (RF+Barrage+RF) and Sword would be a flat out better melee choice.
Who’s a good boy? Not you, since you aggro’d the BLOODY CHAMP-
A fix for the sword root was hinted at over a year ago by ANet (A simple ’we’re working on it’, and we all know how that goes). That aside, I remember hearing the argument that the sword’s damage may have to be nerfed if the root was fixed. With how well it synnergises with our traits and the excellent utility it brings due to the availability of an off-hand, there’d be almost no reason to use Greatsword at all outside of PvP, since Longbow can outburst (RF+Barrage+RF) and Sword would be a flat out better melee choice.
Actually, Sword doesn’t really have that much of a DPS. I mean yes, it is our highest DPS source of weapon – but not really that strong when compared to meta (Ele,Warr,Thief) classes.
Breaking the Chain is nothing but a quality of life change in my opinion. Veteran Rangers already unbound the auto-key to prevent it’s clunky mechanic. It works just fine with manually controlling the hits. But it’s a pain.
Greatsword is not really a bad DPS weapon. It just needs the remorseless traitline treatment. If the upcoming content lasts for longer than 20 seconds – GS+S/A remorseless might as well become the way to go for rangers. I mean, the vuln uptime and damage is pretty solid when paired with Frost Spotter party buffs.
The damage is not really the issue with weapons. The pain to apply it is, though. That’s what the problem I hope will get addressed is about.
If the DPS gets addressed, I hope it will be through our pets survivability and mechanics reliability.
“Observe, learn and counter.”
There aren’t any scenarios where Axe will outdps sword there are situations where I would take a/a over s/a For example uncategorized fractal when you’re fighting shaman and ettin sotp+qz for 25 stacks of might almost instantly and swap to lb for double rapid fire. Just because it isn’t meta doesn’t mean it only has 1 useful skill and there aren’t situations where it can’t be used
Delecroix – Ranger master race
There aren’t any scenarios where Axe will outdps sword there are situations where I would take a/a over s/a For example uncategorized fractal when you’re fighting shaman and ettin sotp+qz for 25 stacks of might almost instantly and swap to lb for double rapid fire. Just because it isn’t meta doesn’t mean it only has 1 useful skill and there aren’t situations where it can’t be used
This I can agree with.
But then again, you can’t summarize and generalize according to a single situational weapon use (that actually doesn’t even promote weapon – but your off-hand slot that benefits from Might from Axe).
Weapons should be balanced and improved in the way to fulfill their role and purpose. It’s wrong if a weapon has traits promoting stat combination that doesn’t have any single competitive place.
“Observe, learn and counter.”
There aren’t any scenarios where Axe will outdps sword there are situations where I would take a/a over s/a For example uncategorized fractal when you’re fighting shaman and ettin sotp+qz for 25 stacks of might almost instantly and swap to lb for double rapid fire. Just because it isn’t meta doesn’t mean it only has 1 useful skill and there aren’t situations where it can’t be used
This I can agree with.
But then again, you can’t summarize and generalize according to a single situational weapon use (that actually doesn’t even promote weapon – but your off-hand slot that benefits from Might from Axe).Weapons should be balanced and improved in the way to fulfill their role and purpose. It’s wrong if a weapon has traits promoting stat combination that doesn’t have any single competitive place.
There could easily be situations where axe will outdps sword. One cannot assume that targets will always be in cleave range for sword to hit multiple targets. Axe is of course a ranged weapon. It is a kiting weapon, #2 is an AoE skill that can have an amplified effect on a single target in PBAoE. Just because the skill is terribad if it doesn’t hit x5 on a single target doesn’t mean that it is a skill that is designed to be used as a shotgun, and it doesn’t make the weapon melee. It means that the skill is poorly designed as is much of the other stuff on the ranger. We’re talking about single stacks of might on traits, utilities like sharpening stone, an aa on axe that originally didn’t have the might stacking or any condition application, sb with no pressure outside of aa with positional requirements, stuff like that.
You claim that it is wrong for a weapon to have trait choices that don’t support its role or right stat combinations and yet you assume that your idea of the role of Axe is the same as Anet’s vision, which is probably incorrect considering they gave us a trait that gives ferocity when wielding Axe. Axe is a better aoe range weapon and sword is better single target damage.
Local Charr Ruins Everything
@Mcrocha
Your examples are not really great.
What you are saying is
:Let’s assume that you can’t go into melee range (for some reason) and that multiple enemies are to be shot down.
Well I’ll naturally reply with
:Then let’s assume that those enemies are lined up and Longbow will deal far better DPS, won’t waste potential of any skill (like axe#2) and could target 2 more enemies.
Furthermore, I haven’t really been to any place or content where bringing Zerk Axe into main hand would fasten me up better than not. If there’s such a situation it’s gonna be 1 out of 5 which is a horrible example by itself. Not to mention you’d be able to handle the situation with Sword regardless.
Because if there are several enemies on range – you usually have a guardian to pull them to 1 place to promote Sword to axe again.
If your “let’s assume” argument involves range
my “let’s assume” argument would be having a warrior to stack them at melee.
Your promotion of Zerk Axe doesn’t have any logical value.
If you want to include PvP into viability, no build at all would include Zerk Axe. Why? Because only a complete moron would hope that a weapon without any defensive ability, valuable utility or burst would be suitable for playing glass cannon.
ANet are people, too, so they have absolute right to go wrong at what they do. It’s our job as their clients to tell them straight if they screwed their decision up.
“Observe, learn and counter.”
Both 1h melee weapons are clunky.
Wait what? What other than sword is a 1 hand melee weapon? Dagger?
An Axe.
Axe on ranger isn’t melee, its a mid range projectile weapon
Whether axe is melee or ranged is irrelevant to OP’s point. There are only two 1h main hand weapons for ranger, and both have severe usability issues. Inability to dodge with sword, and pathetic DPS with axe.
Since you must take a main hand weapon if you’re going to use any of the off-hand weapons, these problems also affect every off-hand weapon for ranger since 60% of your weapon skillbar is determined by the main hand weapon. (Well I suppose you could run around with just the off-hand weapon equipped, but that’s completely unrealistic.)