Guild Wars 2

Does anyone else feel whirling defense (off-hand axe #5) needs some improvements?

I always bring an off-hand axe in PvE for the #4 skill, but I seldom find any situations were using whirling defense would benefit me. Between its root, delay before using, and low damage, it just isn’t a viable skill to use that often. In PvP I’ve found it even less useful.

What I really feel it could use is a block to all incoming attacks. This would actually make it a useful defensive skill and allow players to use it in melee range without the threat of getting slaughtered from the root.

Well, it IS a very long duration projectile reflection; especially with all these dredge lately and molten gunners you can pretty much shut down their attempts to murderise you while simultaneously damage them.

But there’s better things you could be doing with that time as well, making it rather situational.

Ironically mesmers get better use out of that skill through their phantasmal warden than we do; the warden attacks faster, with a shorter CD and the warden performs the attacks independent of the mesmer, allowing them to continue attacking while using the warden for shelter from projectiles.

I think Whirl Finishers in general need a boost across the board. You might look at that skill with new eyes if they ever got around to improving those.

Ryuujin.8236:

Well, it IS a very long duration projectile reflection; especially with all these dredge lately and molten gunners you can pretty much shut down their attempts to murderise you while simultaneously damage them.

But there’s better things you could be doing with that time as well, making it rather situational.

Ironically mesmers get better use out of that skill through their phantasmal warden than we do; the warden attacks faster, with a shorter CD and the warden performs the attacks independent of the mesmer, allowing them to continue attacking while using the warden for shelter from projectiles.

Mesmers doesn’t reflect without a trait, is placed literally right next to the enemy (not always a good spot), doesn’t stack vuln, and is interrupted (dies) after being hit by a single melee or AoE attack, where we do not suffer from any of those issues…

@OP, i see nothing wrong with the skill… It’s a 5s reflect + whirl finisher (Whirl Finishers get stronger the longer they last because they throw more bolts), not to mention the CD is pretty low, especially if you take off hand training, and in PvP you can use it after someone swaps to their ranged weapon to ensure they can’t do anything to you for 5s without killing themselves which can give you a well needed break for regen to patch you up, or to reflect/interrupt a skill the opponent is castin cough KILL SHOT cough cough.

That being said, if WD was made into a 100% block for melee ranged too as well as still doing vuln and damage i would love the skill even more than i currently do, but i feel that’d be OP, maybe it could give 5s of protection, retal, and stability that are removed at the end of the channel?

The only time i find oh axe better than dagger or torch is during the lava worm phase of shaman fractual, mainly for Axe#5. The 25 sec CD on Axe #5 makes oh dagger or torch vastly superior in every other situation.

Durzlla.6295:

Mesmers doesn’t reflect without a trait, is placed literally right next to the enemy (not always a good spot), doesn’t stack vuln, and is interrupted (dies) after being hit by a single melee or AoE attack, where we do not suffer from any of those issues…

In my Phantasm build, pretty much all my illusions tank vet mobs without much though. Champs usually hit a bit too hard and they go down a bit before they’re recharged but they get their attacks off.

Another thing about Mesmer’s Warden, all its attacks will critical hit 100%.

Honestly, if axe 5 had the cooldown of the Warden’s whirl, I’d probably be perfectly happy with it. It can go every 9 seconds. If mine recharged in 10 seconds, I wouldn’t really care about interrupting/getting interrupted during the skill

it may have been more viable if you could move with it imo… as it is now its not really useful for me in WvW cuz all the other guy who, i.e. try to kill shot, need to do is wait for it to finish and click kill shot again…

if we could use it like for example GS 4 skill and move to the cover at the same time, it may have been useful…

Whirling defence is now a toggle skill (1 second cooldown).

Rangers everywhere spaz out in glorious projectile immune celebration!

Leo G.4501:

Durzlla.6295:

Mesmers doesn’t reflect without a trait, is placed literally right next to the enemy (not always a good spot), doesn’t stack vuln, and is interrupted (dies) after being hit by a single melee or AoE attack, where we do not suffer from any of those issues…

In my Phantasm build, pretty much all my illusions tank vet mobs without much though. Champs usually hit a bit too hard and they go down a bit before they’re recharged but they get their attacks off.

Another thing about Mesmer’s Warden, all its attacks will critical hit 100%.

Honestly, if axe 5 had the cooldown of the Warden’s whirl, I’d probably be perfectly happy with it. It can go every 9 seconds. If mine recharged in 10 seconds, I wouldn’t really care about interrupting/getting interrupted during the skill

Are all his attacks crits because of your inflated PvE stats or because that’s how warden rolls? Because my Mesmer has not had the same results.

And for your phantasms to be tanky that means you gave up a utility slot and quite a few utility slots for it, which again, we don’t need to do for WD, not to mention the CD on your phantasm I believe is 20s, not 10s, I’m not talking about their activation time, because phantasms are balanced around not doing anything else until their skill is off CD.

For PvP….
Should do roughly the same dmg but over 1.5s with a lil improved aoe range.
Possibly cut down the CD a lil and bump down the overall channel dmg by a bit.

A weapon skill with little other benefit but dmg shouldn’t be doing less dmg than the spammable… while rooting you… for 5 seconds… with a terrible aoe range…

That’s just all bad.
Oh and the axe #4 skill should be on half the CD, and do 25~% less dmg, for the sake of better gameplay.

Durzlla.6295:

And for your phantasms to be tanky that means you gave up a utility slot and quite a few utility slots for it, which again, we don’t need to do for WD, not to mention the CD on your phantasm I believe is 20s, not 10s, I’m not talking about their activation time, because phantasms are balanced around not doing anything else until their skill is off CD.

Don’t need to?
You mean can’t?

If there were traits and a utility that would make WD wrack up anywhere near as much dmg as a phantasm… a phantasm on a 1s cast… people might actually consider using axe offhand…

Off hand axe is pretty nice in the new dungeon, in many places. Used right, and ontop of your healing spring or other combo field, it deals decent damage, adds lots of vulnerability, reflects any projectiles coming your way AND can support your team through its whirl finisher – all in one skill.

I can’t think of any other skill we have that has so many thing going for it at once. It’s situational, yes, but if you do find those sweet spots where and when to use it, it’s a kick kitten skill for sure.

If anything, please Anet, let us gain stability while channeling axe 5. With that change alone, I wouldn’t mind the fact that this skill roots you in place.

OGDeadHead.8326:

If anything, please Anet, let us gain stability while channeling axe 5. With that change alone, I wouldn’t mind the fact that this skill roots you in place.

Upping the abilities dmg and making it channel the same many bolts over a shorter time wouldn’t really change that, just make it more generally viable…
You know… usable for more than an allright buff while redoing a specific dungeon for the kicks…
Unless, of course, your feel that’s everything a weapon needs to be…

Nah, I agree, axe 5 is best when you know what to expect.

garethh.3518:

For PvP….
Should do roughly the same dmg but over 1.5s with a lil improved aoe range.
Possibly cut down the CD a lil and bump down the overall channel dmg by a bit.

A weapon skill with little other benefit but dmg shouldn’t be doing less dmg than the spammable… while rooting you… for 5 seconds… with a terrible aoe range…

That’s just all bad.
Oh and the axe #4 skill should be on half the CD, and do 25~% less dmg, for the sake of better gameplay.

Durzlla.6295:

And for your phantasms to be tanky that means you gave up a utility slot and quite a few utility slots for it, which again, we don’t need to do for WD, not to mention the CD on your phantasm I believe is 20s, not 10s, I’m not talking about their activation time, because phantasms are balanced around not doing anything else until their skill is off CD.

Don’t need to?
You mean can’t?

If there were traits and a utility that would make WD wrack up anywhere near as much dmg as a phantasm… a phantasm on a 1s cast… people might actually consider using axe offhand…

Oh, you mean that phantasm that can be completely mitigated through blocking, blind, evade, line of site, or interrupt? That if they actually -do- get summoned can simply be walked away from? Oh yup, sure am jealous about that!

And I’m quite happy I don’t have the option of traiting my WD skill to reflect because that’d mean it got nerfed! Not to mention there’s this amazing thing to make it tanky called “Gear”, and the fact we -could- do as much damage as it but we’d have to actually stand there and use the skill in glassy armor, and -still- be tanker than the phantasm can be.

I think just removing the rooting would be the best thing for it if everything else remained in its current state. It doesn’t do enough damage to justify not being able to move, and it doesn’t have enough of an effect/radius to make it an area deterrent.

The skill 5 is alright by itself but both weapon combinations, sword/axe and axe/axe, come together badly as weapon pairings. This means that neither pairing has versatile usage compared to the missile defense in other classes.

Since you are rooted in place it pretty much sucks, not to mention the other issues with it. Although no mobility on it makes it worthless imo for WvW.

Durzlla.6295:

Oh, you mean that phantasm that can be completely mitigated through blocking, blind, evade, line of site, or interrupt? That if they actually -do- get summoned can simply be walked away from? Oh yup, sure am jealous about that!

And I’m quite happy I don’t have the option of traiting my WD skill to reflect because that’d mean it got nerfed! Not to mention there’s this amazing thing to make it tanky called “Gear”, and the fact we -could- do as much damage as it but we’d have to actually stand there and use the skill in glassy armor, and -still- be tanker than the phantasm can be.

So… your trying to put down the phantasmal defender… in comparison to WD…
Ok, if you seriously think those two are even remotely comparable in effect, I can’t really see a discussion being possible…
>.<
The only thing I can think of to say to you that could go somewhere is… think how many mesmers you’ve seen use focus offhand in PvP… now think how many rangers you’ve seen use axe offhand.
(personally its somewhere around 80+ to 2~)

jcbroe.4329:

I think just removing the rooting would be the best thing for it if everything else remained in its current state. It doesn’t do enough damage to justify not being able to move, and it doesn’t have enough of an effect/radius to make it an area deterrent.

It doesn’t do enough dmg to justify a channeled attack that requires melee range.
The axe spammable does as much if not more dps if I am not mistaken.
I personally don’t mind the root, if it had redeeming features, like very high dps, a decent aoe range, some movement impairment or at least a decent amount on the weapon set, the dmg strikes passively after a 1~s cast… tragically it has none of that.

garethh.3518:

Durzlla.6295:

Oh, you mean that phantasm that can be completely mitigated through blocking, blind, evade, line of site, or interrupt? That if they actually -do- get summoned can simply be walked away from? Oh yup, sure am jealous about that!

And I’m quite happy I don’t have the option of traiting my WD skill to reflect because that’d mean it got nerfed! Not to mention there’s this amazing thing to make it tanky called “Gear”, and the fact we -could- do as much damage as it but we’d have to actually stand there and use the skill in glassy armor, and -still- be tanker than the phantasm can be.

So… your trying to put down the phantasmal defender… in comparison to WD…
Ok, if you seriously think those two are even remotely comparable in effect, I can’t really see a discussion being possible…
>.<
The only thing I can think of to say to you that could go somewhere is… think how many mesmers you’ve seen use focus offhand in PvP… now think how many rangers you’ve seen use axe offhand.
(personally its somewhere around 80+ to 2~)

jcbroe.4329:

I think just removing the rooting would be the best thing for it if everything else remained in its current state. It doesn’t do enough damage to justify not being able to move, and it doesn’t have enough of an effect/radius to make it an area deterrent.

It doesn’t do enough dmg to justify a channeled attack that requires melee range.
The axe spammable does as much if not more dps if I am not mistaken.
I personally don’t mind the root, if it had redeeming features, like very high dps, a decent aoe range, some movement impairment or at least a decent amount on the weapon set, the dmg strikes passively after a 1~s cast… tragically it has none of that.

I was just thinking about it as a pseudo-shield stance interaction. Granted, it could use more more work than removing the root. But I can’t believe there are skills in this game that root you and don’t have an area denial effect or invulnerable effect, with the pace and style of combat that it is. So I only mentioned my priority fix.

A bit more clarification on why I think the skill needs work:

In PvE using it solely to damage opponents at close range will be about as effective as your auto-attack, even if used in a combo field, but doing so makes you very vulnerable to melee attacks and AoE. Since you’re using it in melee range and unable to move, the chances are you’re going to get hit hard. If using it solely to reflect projectiles, you will be less productive than if you just kept moving and used other attacks.

This skill generally becomes viable only when you can do both of these things; damage the enemy at melee range while at the same time reflecting their projectiles. However if you start getting hit by AoE or melee attacks you need to end it or take a lot of damage, requiring you to be fighting enemies that only have ranged attacks and for nothing else to be attacking you. A good example of this is the boss is the grawl fractal where you can safely use it in a group of elementals to damage and reflect all their projectiles back at them. The problem is situations like these are rare making this skill far too situational.

In PvP using it offensively is just not an option. Its low damage does not deter melee enemies from attacking you while it is going and due to it rooting you, they can easily just take a few steps to avoid it. Its only viable function is as a projectile reflector.

However, whirling defense is one of the worst, if not the worst, projectile block/reflect skills in the game when used solely for that reason. The best use your going to get out of it is reflecting maybe 2-3 attacks back on a skilled enemy, and if you keep it up past that they can easily take advantage of your root by better positioning themselves, taking the time to use long cast skills or heals without being interrupted, or casting AoE.

So much of this game is based around movement and when you take that movement away you become extremely vulnerable, not enough for a projectile reflect to make up for. If they want to keep the root it is necessary for the skill to be able to defend against melee attacks while still allowing AoE to affect the user so it’s not overpowered (this would also bring it in like with how the skill functioned in GW1). Removing the root would also address the issues with the skill but this wouldn’t fit in well with the skill concept or animation and would be technically more difficult.

You forgot about the aoe application of vulnerable and the support through whirl finisher. If used like this, trying to get all of the effects at once, it’s a good skill. That’s how I use it, when I use it.

The vulnerability can be nice if you use WD for most of its duration but what deters me from using it is sitting there for 5 seconds next to multiple melee enemies. I just find it too risky to use like this. It might be nice if you are running a high survivability build though; the vulnerability would give some nice damage support to your team.

I’ve never found the whirl finisher to be of much use on this skill, it just spits out the bolts too slowly and randomly, but its a nice bonus when you are getting a good use out of the skill.

If we are comparing skills then you guys are fine. The engineer shield reflection is the same as WD but with no damage and bigger CD.

Bri.8354:

The vulnerability can be nice if you use WD for most of its duration but what deters me from using it is sitting there for 5 seconds next to multiple melee enemies. I just find it too risky to use like this. It might be nice if you are running a high survivability build though; the vulnerability would give some nice damage support to your team.

I’ve never found the whirl finisher to be of much use on this skill, it just spits out the bolts too slowly and randomly, but its a nice bonus when you are getting a good use out of the skill.

The WD in an ethereal field can put 15 stacks of confusion on multiple enemies, either those stacks are lasting a pretty long time or it’s throwing bolts out faster than you think…

All my builds are pretty freaking high in the survivability aspect so that may explain why I have no issue just standing in melee channeling this xD.