Guild Wars 2

Hello

As the title says i want to ask why shortbow is so popular on the ranger, because everytime i see another ranger in SPvP i know he will start to pewpew me.

I know there are better ranged weapons than shorbow like double axes so ¿why dont use those? (also you can use 2 sigils).

I think It’s all because of something awfully important in PvP :

Mobility.

bows are iconic, people play this class specifically to use bows regardless of how good or bad they are. many people dont want to use axes simply because of this.

why shortbows? longbows take an illogical damage penalty in close range and in general, the skills on it are less effective.

using 2 sigils is overrated as on-crit and on weapon swap tend to be the best, but both share the same cooldown.

shortbow is great für crit/condition builds and can be traited in the crit-trait-line (skirmishing).
1 = fast, ranged bleed
2 = ranged poison (can hit multiple targets)
3 = gives distance, leap finisher, evade, swiftness buff
4 = bleed + cripple
5 = stundaze

Thats the shortbow, great for movement, crits that apply conditions (very fast autoattack), versatile (mostly) single target weapon.

plus!
you can use dual axes too
less utility/defense, more AE, slower autoattack (but bouncing)

weaponswap them when you feel like you don’t need the evade+CC

uri.6521:

I know there are better ranged weapons than shorbuw like double axes so ¿why dont use those? (also you can use 2 sigils).

Thanks I needed a laugh.

Why do people use the SB? Simple. It’s the ranger’s best ranged DPS weapon, outshining both the axes and the LB.

Why it is more powerful than the historically feared longbow still boggles the mind, though.

at least it wasnt feared because of its close(ish)-combat-fast-movement capabilities

Ok i know that shortbow has good dps but it doesnt have a big effect in a PvP team / multiple mobs figth while double axes can bring both AoE and some interesting stuff like proyectile reflection, chill, weakness and most importantly, a possible 5 traget pull every 15 seconds which is really good in stomps / rezz and etc.

Also i must use a weapon with mobility (melee), so i cant have a shortbow as secondary.

AND

You dont need a single trait to do this only the 20% cooldown reduction and +10% critical damage which can be skipped without great diference.

uri.6521:

Ok i know that shortbow has good dps but it doesnt have a big effect in a PvP team / multiple mobs figth while double axes can bring both AoE and some interesting stuff like proyectile reflection, chill, weakness and most importantly, a possible 5 traget pull every 15 seconds which is really good in stomps / rezz and etc.

Also i must use a weapon with mobility (melee), so i cant have a shortbow as secondary.

AND

You dont need a single trait to do this only the 20% cooldown reduction and +10% critical damage which can be skipped without great diference.

then dont use it, what’s the problem?

rchu.8945:

then dont use it, what’s the problem?

That’s probably the best advice regarding the ranger profession, let alone a shortbow.

What’s the problem?

I use the SB because of its dps, speed, and reliability as they relate to one another. Higher fire rate = more chances to hit = fewer chances for obstructions/misses = more reliable versus the LB in the same respects, at least based on my play style (in PvE). I gave the LB a couple of chances since the last patch, and even with the buffs to it along with the nerfs to the SB, I still find the SB to be the better weapon overall in the aforementioned respects as well as being less situational/clunky.

I’m going to have to give the axe another go now, though, since it now has the same range as the SB. The last time I sPvPed (albeit not recently… at all), I did notice I opted for the A/WH combo a lot more than I did for any of the bows.

I personally ran a cursory test in the Mists with a SB, a LB, and axes, and with both a rampager amulet and a zerker one. I found that in any range a SB can hit, the SB is the highest DPS weapon, regardless of if you can get the bleeds. In fact the SB did more damage in it’s range than the LB does at max range.

So to all rangers: don’t attack in the 900-1000 range. You will do less than a SB closer or a LB further away.

SynfulChaot.3169:

I personally ran a cursory test in the Mists with a SB, a LB, and axes, and with both a rampager amulet and a zerker one. I found that in any range a SB can hit, the SB is the highest DPS weapon, regardless of if you can get the bleeds. In fact the SB did more damage in it’s range than the LB does at max range.

So to all rangers: don’t attack in the 900-1000 range. You will do less than a SB closer or a LB further away.

Solution to this problem? Nerf the shortbow. It couldn’t possibly be because the longbow sucks.

I does more damage than the longbow. and is faster.

The time longbow takes to fire, the shortbow would have killed something and you’d have moved on to the next thing.

People keep saying that the SB has more damge its not true even with the bleed attack that you won’t get most of the time.

People just like the feel of the sb more they feel like they are doing more. Also at one time it was very easy to just strafe long bow arrows. People havent retested or seriouly reconsidered The long bow.

The axe is only better vs two or more targets. People really need to test things for themselves.

Sb does do better in a condition build which alot of rangers run.

I tested both bow and came out with the long bow being better. I didnt run a berseker build I tested with the build I run. You should do the same and see for yourself.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

People keep saying that the SB has more damge its not true even with the bleed attack that you won’t get most of the time.

People just like the feel of the sb more they feel like they are doing more. Also at one time it was very easy to just strafe long bow arrows. People havent retested or seriouly reconsidered The long bow.

The axe is only better vs two or more targets. People really need to test things for themselves.

Sb does do better in a condition build which alot of rangers run.

I tested both bow and came out with the long bow being better. I didnt run a berseker build I tested with the build I run. You should do the same and see for yourself.

Actually that is true, Serraphin.

After the nerf I decided to do a bit of testing. Same stats (20/30/20/0/0), rampager and zerker amulets, and SB, LB, and axe. You know what I found? At any range that the SB could hit, it did as much damage as the LB at max range. And that was only attacking directly head on, meaning no bleeds. Attacking from the side? SB was far superior. Both did more damage than the axe over the same time period.

So no, I disagree that the LB is more powerful. It has gotten more powerful, but not yet as powerful as the SB.

I tested as I want more reason to use my longbow, but it’s still not the weapon du jour for rangers until it receives more positive attention.

SynfulChaot.3169:

So no, I disagree that the LB is more powerful. It has gotten more powerful, but not yet as powerful as the SB.

I tested as I want more reason to use my longbow, but it’s still not the weapon du jour for rangers until it receives more positive attention.

Or until the shortbow receives more negative attention. Cause that’s how you balance a game, right?

Shiren.9532:

SynfulChaot.3169:

So no, I disagree that the LB is more powerful. It has gotten more powerful, but not yet as powerful as the SB.

I tested as I want more reason to use my longbow, but it’s still not the weapon du jour for rangers until it receives more positive attention.

Or until the shortbow receives more negative attention. Cause that’s how you balance a game, right?

That was a mistake on their part and I am sure that they realize that by now. But I don’t think we’ll see any changes until the next monthly patch.

The speed and damage of the shortbow is vastly higher than the longbow go test it yourselves the time between longbow attacks a shortbow can do so much more damage.

Another thing Longbow fires so slow it allows whatever you are hitting to flee, dodge and heal between shots so you very rarely kill any players in WvW they just move/block/dodge etc.. Shortbow doesn’t let them do that as much as the fire rate is constant so they have less chance to survive..

I don’t think longbow does lower dmg then shortbow. But longbow is rather static weapon and as some aspects of the game require mobility, then shortbow is much better choice.

Also most of the sPvP maps are range unfriendly maps. You can barelly attack from 1200 range, better to not to talk about 1500 range, without your arrows being obstruckted by buildings, walls, terrain or just some random crap in the way. Together with the awful autoattack is longbow almost useless in sPvP.

No matter how much shortbow was nerfed, even if it provides worser dps then longbow or axe, shortbow will be most popular weapon anyway thanks to the mobility.

Miyu.8137:

I don’t think longbow does lower dmg then shortbow. But longbow is rather static weapon and as some aspects of the game require mobility, then shortbow is much better choice.

Test it out, Miyu. Test out the two with identical stats. We need to spend more time actually testing out this stuff instead of speaking from conjecture. You will find that the SB is more powerful.

The vulnerablity plus barrage and or the rapid fire more than makes up for the attack speed. Because Lb scales in range you need to test at all 3 ranges.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

The vulnerablity plus barrage and or the rapid fire more than makes up for the attack speed. Because Lb scales in range you need to test at all 3 ranges.

I tested max range with the vuln spikes and rapid fire. I tested with maximum damage potential on the LB at max range. I didn’t just auto-attack. I wanted a true test. And that test proved that SB is a superior weapon.

Again, try it yourself. I did my work as I want to be as effective as possible. Not just to prove a point.

I didnt use the 5% damage increase from trait. But I did use barrage that along make all the difference. cycle order maybe one of the issue. I start with hunters strike followed by barrage then rapid fire if golem is still alive it only take two arrow if that to put it down. Again I not using a zerker build but I have 30 in marksmenship line.

Sounds like I must do a full test and post all the results. There goes my free time tomorrow. sigh

The sad thing is … I’ll do that and people still won’t believe me.

do people even try the longbow in actual pvp? vs glass cannon i can hit for 8-10k rapid fire.. recent patch made it easier to hit moving targets which is a problem before.. and initial shots in 1500 range before the enemy get in 1200, if you land a critical + flame blast sigil is like 4-5k damage.. and the spammable knockback + lightning reflexes + owl chill to keep people at range.. pair with gs to counter melee/widen gap. gs counter hits for another 5k against glass cannons + a knockback. i think its a matter of playstyle.. with this playstyle im always on my toes.. which i like.. shortbow bores me.. here let me fight you head on while i regen and my pet dps you. longbow is more tactical play which i feel is more stimulating than the static sb. ranger wasnt my first prof i came from mesmer and now barely touch my mesmer

We’re not saying the LB is weak, just that it isn’t as powerful as the SB. People don’t all use the SB because they’re lazy. Most do because it’s still the superior weapon.

I just tested on heavy golem and idk what you are talking about. With longbow I needed aprox 11sec to get golem down (from 1200 range). With shorbow from side I needed aprox 15secs.

Also I don’t like you speaking about shortbow as superior weapon. It sounds like you want it to be nerfed in dmg. The bow is just fine, even the range nerf was not necessary. Go try this, make full berserker build and go try kill with shortbow full tanky guardian holding a point. You probably won’t kill him and if, then it will take ages. Then make a tanky/condi build and go try to kill him again, this time use torch and axe. You would be surprised that while you being much more tanky you are able to get him down as fast or even faster then with full berserker build.

Shortbow simply wins, cause it’s weapon for every situation. It has decent dmg, it can be used from range as well as in close combat. It has control skills, conditions. Nerfing shortbow just cause other weapons are used less, simply cause they are luckluster, is not the way to go.

Miyu.8137:

I just tested on heavy golem and idk what you are talking about. With longbow I needed aprox 11sec to get golem down (from 1200 range). With shorbow from side I needed aprox 15secs.

I don’t know how it took you that long. My testing never took more than 13 seconds from the side with zerker stats and SB. Less with rampager. And LB took longer than 15 seconds. I, of course, am counting bow damage only. No utilities. No pet.

Miyu.8137:

Also I don’t like you speaking about shortbow as superior weapon. It sounds like you want it to be nerfed in dmg. The bow is just fine, even the range nerf was not necessary. Go try this, make full berserker build and go try kill with shortbow full tanky guardian holding a point. You probably won’t kill him and if, then it will take ages. Then make a tanky/condi build and go try to kill him again, this time use torch and axe. You would be surprised that while you being much more tanky you are able to get him down as fast or even faster then with full berserker build.

Shortbow simply wins, cause it’s weapon for every situation. It has decent dmg, it can be used from range as well as in close combat. It has control skills, conditions. Nerfing shortbow just cause other weapons are used less, simply cause they are luckluster is not the way to go.

I’m not speaking of it as I want it to be nerfed. SB does not need nerfs. LB simply needs buffs. And if you watched any of the SotG, even Jonathan Sharp noted that the LB needs streamlining and updating for power.

I still do hold, though, that the SB is a superior weapon. I will do a full testing with multiple builds and stats and post the results tomorrow to end this silly argument of LB vs SB for pure damage.

Shiren.9532:

SynfulChaot.3169:

So no, I disagree that the LB is more powerful. It has gotten more powerful, but not yet as powerful as the SB.

I tested as I want more reason to use my longbow, but it’s still not the weapon du jour for rangers until it receives more positive attention.

Or until the shortbow receives more negative attention. Cause that’s how you balance a game, right?

Didn’t Jon Sharp say in one of those STOG videos thakittens a matter of changing perceptions than actually balancing things… or something to that effect? Basically (what I remember) is some BS about it is easier to change the way people view things than to actually fix the friggin problem. That kitten ed me off. Of course, Jon Sharp seems to know NOTHING when it comes to the ranger anyway. Who is over class balance anyway?

I will do some more testing too, I just did this quickly with such results. I actually tested some more now but the lb still wins, very slightly but still.

Let’s make a deal and rather talk about other weapons to be weak instead of sb being superior. I just fear the nature of anet’s sence for balance and feel sb nerf just cause ppl saying it’s superior :-).

Miyu.8137:

I will do some more testing too, I just did this quickly with such results. I actually tested some more now but the lb still wins, very slightly but still.

Let’s make a deal and rather talk about other weapons to be weak instead of sb being superior. I just fear the nature of anet’s sence for balance and feel sb nerf just cause ppl saying it’s superior :-).

Oh. We’re all pretty open in saying that LB is weaker than it should be. The signature power ranged damage weapon should show significantly more damage than the skirmishing ranged weapon.

I will not, though, deny the power that the SB does provide. I have faith that they won’t nerf the weapon further.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

I didnt use the 5% damage increase from trait. But I did use barrage that along make all the difference. cycle order maybe one of the issue. I start with hunters strike followed by barrage then rapid fire if golem is still alive it only take two arrow if that to put it down. Again I not using a zerker build but I have 30 in marksmenship line.

From the tests I ran (admittedly several months ago), hunter’s shot provided very little benefit on LB unless you’re with a group or running a BM build (high pet damage). The time it takes to use the skill and low damage pretty much cancels out the 10% damage increase.
Edit: Just tested it and it now provides nearly the full 10% improvement, so they must’ve realized how stupid it was to have a skill where using it canceled out its benefit, and reduced the time it takes to use the skill.

Do note that LB’s autoattack is channeled. If you hit another skill button while the channel bar is up, it will interrupt the autoattack and you will have effectively wasted the time the autoattack was channeling. So you want to try to time your button presses to coincide with the bar resetting. Don’t spam skills as soon as their cooldown is up.

Rapid fire’s DPS was identical to autoattack to the best of my timing ability. What saves it is that it_s damage isn’t reduced at close range. In other words, you are better off relying on autoattack and never using this skill, unless the target closes to short/medium range.
Edit: Latest test showed no change in this.

Barrage is a decent DPS skill. Unfortunately, for it to do full damage, it requires your target remain in the circle the full 7-8 seconds (IIRC, the skill only takes 5 sec to channel, but the DoT lasts 7-8 sec). I can’t find my original calcs on it, but the break-even point where auto-attack’s DPS exceeded barrage’s was somewhere around 4-5 sec. If the target stayed in the circle longer than that, barrage was worth it. If it moved out before then, autoattack was better.

That’s what makes barrage look deceptively good when tested on stationary golems – they always stay in the circle the full duration. With autoattack’s DPS being buffed, that break-even point is probably up around 5-6 sec now, making it even less likely to be worth it in real gameplay. Try it on the running golem and barrage will probably cause a DPS decrease vs autoattack. (That said, barrage is also a full damage at close range skill, so it’s better than autoattack if the target closes with you.)

Miyu.8137:

I just tested on heavy golem and idk what you are talking about. With longbow I needed aprox 11sec to get golem down (from 1200 range). With shorbow from side I needed aprox 15secs.

LB’s autoattack DPS was buffed this latest patch. Most of the people saying SB is better are probably basing it off pre-patch tests. LB sucked compared to SB then. With LB’s autoattack effectively getting a 25% DPS buff, that should put it ahead of SB from the front, but still behind SB w/ bleed.

That said, I’m not sure how you managed to take 15 sec to kill a heavy golem with a SB from the side. In my tests using a regular build, I could do it with SB in about 12 sec, 9-11 sec for optimized builds. 15-18 sec was about what it took from the front (no bleed, no flanking bonus from trait).

I just ran some quick tests with a newbie ranger (default PvP armor), all traits set at zero. 3-5 trials for each:

LB max range autoattack: 19-21 sec
LB w/ hunter’s: 17-19 sec
LB w/ hunter’s + barrage (unrealistic): 16 sec
SB front: 21-24 sec
SB w/ bleed: 16-17 sec
SB w/ bleed (30/30/10/0/0 build): 9-10 sec

So my zero-trait ranger nearly matched your 15 sec SB from the side, and an optimized build easily beat your 11 sec w/ LB.

uri.6521:

Hello

As the title says i want to ask why shortbow is so popular on the ranger, because everytime i see another ranger in SPvP i know he will start to pewpew me.

I know there are better ranged weapons than shorbow like double axes so ¿why dont use those? (also you can use 2 sigils).

First of all, double axe sucks.
The shortbow is still awesome even after the range nerf, that’s because it’s a very fast and mobile weapon, plus you have good abilities on it. I don’t give a kitten about bleeds, i run a power defensive build and the shortbow physical dmg is not that good, but i still use the weapon just for its utilities.

Ok the main reason isn’t damage in sPvP. Even if the Longbow does more damage, most would use a longbow. It has the more mobile skillset. It provides poison which is huge with slowing heals, a free evade, cripple, and daze/stun. Longbow has a slower attack speed, slower animations, just not as good in close range combat. Most of your fighting is going to be on a point, you’re either not on the point attacking them in which case they can typically tank/avoid the damage, or both are on the point fighting which means you’re doing less damage. Your knockback is a nice interrupt but Barrage isn’t as great in sPvP, dodging/avoiding he qucikshot ins’t hard either if your opponent isn’t terrible it’s easy to dodge a majority, stealth or get something between you and the longbow user.

NinjaSonic.1392:

Ok the main reason isn’t damage in sPvP. Even if the Longbow does more damage, most would use a longbow. It has the more mobile skillset. It provides poison which is huge with slowing heals, a free evade, cripple, and daze/stun. Longbow has a slower attack speed, slower animations, just not as good in close range combat. Most of your fighting is going to be on a point, you’re either not on the point attacking them in which case they can typically tank/avoid the damage, or both are on the point fighting which means you’re doing less damage. Your knockback is a nice interrupt but Barrage isn’t as great in sPvP, dodging/avoiding he qucikshot ins’t hard either if your opponent isn’t terrible it’s easy to dodge a majority, stealth or get something between you and the longbow user.

Basically that the SB is a superior weapon for mobility, and in sPvP mobility is king. Unless you’re on point defense. Then bunkering is. And then you’d use melee over any of the ranged options.

Because you can lay traps, tell your pet to attack, and auto attack while still winning most of your fights.
I don’t think it has to do with damage or minmaxing the best build, just the lack of tactics required for a good level of play.
That, and it seems to be quite responsive for a ranged weapon.

A: Shortbow is popular, because it can be fired as fast as longbows should be. (nearly)

Ranged alternatives: lb and axe. Neither of these match sb in key areas.

Reliability: sb reliably bleeds on flank which will happen at close range. It also fires fast constantly providing good sustained dmg. Axe bleed is a shotgun skill with a slow cast (much slower than sb 2). Its telegraphed and easy to evade. Offhand skills have long cds. Lb has a poor auto. Rapid fire has good burst but it is easily evaded due to the cooldown, which sb does not have.

Control: sb has cripple, not quite as good as either axe and offhand or lb in slows. It is middle of the road for interrupts, worse than lb but better than axe/axe. It provided poison on demand that is easy to land. The poison makes it at least on par with either weapon in this regard.

Firing fast also procs stuff more.