Guild Wars 2

anduriell.6280:

The would make a lot of op cry and our pets would get 50% HP reduction. We would stand in even worst place after that.

First of all, this shouldn’t apply to pvp – at all.

Secondly, for wvw, are pets even an issue there, from other players perspective?
Damage reduction is for pve (dungeons and some world bosses, also the upcoming raids I guess), and for wvw zerging. It’s not needed anywhere else.

OGDeadHead.8326:

First of all, this shouldn’t apply to pvp – at all.

Counterplay means that you have the option to change how you play so that the thing you are countering is less effective. In the case of AI, the counterplay should be to focus it and destroy it. Not to just keep spamming AoE attacks at your original target until the AI dies on its own.

evilunderling.9265:

OGDeadHead.8326:

First of all, this shouldn’t apply to pvp – at all.

Counterplay means that you have the option to change how you play so that the thing you are countering is less effective. In the case of AI, the counterplay should be to focus it and destroy it. Not to just keep spamming AoE attacks at your original target until the AI dies on its own.

Huh?

I meant that aoe/cleave damage reduction for pets in pvp isn’t necessary at all. I don’t know what your response was referring to?

Actually the concerns about defective AI is as much about PvE as PvP/WvW.
In PvE is easier to keep your pet alive most of the times, in WvW the pet instadie.

HEre they are asking for a real fix, not a patch that works only in some scenarios.

I gave my solution that could be easily implemented in the pathing algorithm. Once that is done they could even use it for the mobs so they behave more like a player.

I have given this much thought and what I came to realize is that we do not need our pets to be immune or take reduced damage by default, but options to keep them alive like we can keep ourselves alive. And a clean way to do this is through some weapon abilities, traits and utility skills. The Pet + Ranger need to be treated as a whole when it comes to positives and not just negatives.

What can be done is thus:

- Translate PvE pet HP total into WvW. Leave PvP out of it at first because its small scale combat and other pet survival options will make them solod by default

- Wilderness mastery skills condition removal and fury application will affect both Ranger and pet.

- Every evasion frame from dodging and weapon skills need to be implemented onto the pet as a blur effect in the same duration. This includes: Dodge, hornets sting, Vipers strike, Swoop, GS auto attack 3, Stalkers strike, Evasive shot.

- Natural healing trait pet passive regeneration increased from 125/s to 200/s. Addition functionality added: Pets take 25-50% increased healing from all sources.

- Invigorating bond nature magic grand master trait changed. Considering we have the Druid as a healing spec this trait is obsolete in its current incarnation.
Thus: If the pet is downed healing utility skills will resurrect it with the HP total of the heal. If the pet is not dead the heal will heal the pet for an additional 50%. 2 seconds of invulnerability on pet after the heal.

- Pet downed penalty reduced from 60 seconds to 45 seconds.

- Emphatic bond will convert 3 conditions into boons for the pet instead of just moving conditions.

- Signet of Renewal changed from moving conditions to dispelling conditions from Ranger and pet

I know that this might seem a bit over the top, but considering that the pet is an essential part of the ranger it does require options to keep it alive other then swapping and there needs to be some interaction when its downed. Furthermore I believe that almost every line should have options that can prolong the pets life.

So in the end we would end up:
- pet is tougher naturally in WvW which is needed
- MM would support the pet with options to trait SoS and SoR up time
- Skirmishing would enable survivability through interaction with ranger weapon skills or the HS water field
- WS will give the 5% reduced damage taken from Oakheart and the 50% damage reduction from the minor IF the Ranger is above 90%. Also protection on dodge and more blur frames from dodges.
- NM will allow you to resurrect the pet or apply boons to it
- BM will make the pet much better through raw stats
- Druid can heal it or remove conditions from it

So in the end you have options, you are adding meaningful interactions through weapon skills and you are using worthless traits to give them a purpose. You really cant take everything and you can choose your style.

I think this is good design.

The sticking point with me about using Targeting as the determining factor is that it doesn’t really account for the fact AOEs can be intentionally aimed to hit multiple targets and target-less fighting is possible.

I’ve mentioned this before, but, if I had to segregate Intentional from Incidental damage I’d grab the ‘Regenerating Energy Shields’ concept from FPS games.

If a Healthbar is like a litmus test of your opponent’s Force, a Shield is a test of their Attention. Basically for this game I’d say a Sheild is when the Healthbar is only exposed to receive damage after the target remains under constant enemy attack for a short fixed period of time.

I like that solution because:

• it doesn’t increase micromanagement (like how a dodge solution would).
• works the same across all game-modes
• normalizes pet survivability across gamemodes because it relies on ‘time spent under enemy pressure’ and not amount of damage being delt.
• Flexible enough to suit the spectrum of intended pet survivability we have in this game. Hearty things can get longer shields and maintain their current healthbars (Ranger Bear Pets), Fragile things can get shorter shields and go straight into death afterward (Mesmer Clones).
• balance-wise, it’s like “dodges; but in bar form and it can only dodge damage”
• It could make a ‘skill with health’ feel less like a handicap and more like an opportunity, because it can be a resource you use in a positive way and not there solely to be used against you. One way I’ve seen a game use shields as a resource is ‘amplified effect the lower a shield is, but once the healthbar is exposed no additional benefit at all’. I think this sort of thing could really elevate things like Spirits/Turrets/FleshWurm.

Chokolata, all good suggestions – +1.

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

The underlying system of combat is built around area attacks. This is why the majority of base weapon attacks strike multiple targets in the affected area, unlike other games which strike one target – the one you have selected. Our system makes things like positioning and facing far more important and engaging; this also means that the concept of ‘AoE’ is not as easy to distinguish and thus handle in different ways.

That said, we are currently looking at systemic ways to help with player pet and minion survivability.

Add so when the player dodge the pet/minions dodge at the same time ?

Chokolata.1870:

-snip-

Would take all of these fixes.

/signed & approved.

Kenney.5461:

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

The underlying system of combat is built around area attacks. This is why the majority of base weapon attacks strike multiple targets in the affected area, unlike other games which strike one target – the one you have selected. Our system makes things like positioning and facing far more important and engaging; this also means that the concept of ‘AoE’ is not as easy to distinguish and thus handle in different ways.

That said, we are currently looking at systemic ways to help with player pet and minion survivability.

Add so when the player dodge the pet/minions dodge at the same time ?

This would work for rangers, but not Mesmers or Necros. The things that kill Necro minions are not things that should be dodged. I’m kinda leery of it for Ranger pets, but since we just have the one beefier buddy it should work better.

As a radical surgery option for rangers, you could have pets who act friendly to everything until given an order to execute, then they try to execute that order until it’s done or its ‘morale’ (i.e., health) runs out.

With pets being beefier than illusions, this should be pretty reasonable on its own, while also completely negating situations like Jade Maw and certain fights where pets are basically a liability.

Mesmers can have something else devised for their illusions’ counterplay.

Quite honestly the ranger pet is more important then both mesmer illusions or necromancer minions. If an illusion does it cast once it has already done its job. And minions are utility skills, they can be reused.

Anet already has the ability to make pets immune to enemies’ attacks, because there are a lot of things they’re immune to right now (the Golem Mk II’s electric fields, the Vinewrath’s laser attack, at least some environmental effects). They just need to apply that to all big attacks.

Especially things like Liadri. I probably would have beaten her a lot quicker if my pet could have stayed alive for more than a few seconds in that fight.

OGDeadHead.8326:

Damage reduction is for pve (dungeons and some world bosses, also the upcoming raids I guess), and for wvw zerging. It’s not needed anywhere else.

Pets don’t seem to take damage in raids (or at least parts of the raid, can’t remember). Made it a bit too easy to self-revive – I noticed that the last to be defeated in our raid party was always one of the druids (I was one of them).

Adrian Guardian.9480:

Pets don’t seem to take damage in raids. Made it a bit too easy to self-revive – I noticed that the druids in our raid party were always the last ones to be defeated.

Noticed the same, except direct attacks from the bosses in raids seem to be the only thing that inflicts damage on the pets. This is a fine since there are AOEs everywhere.

I also noticed the druids/rangers were the last ones to be defeated, but seeing how frequent the one-shot mechanics happen, the self-revives are short-lived anyway.

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

The systemic change we’ve been working on to get in place for Heart of Thorns to help with pet and spirit survivability can be read about now

That is a great change for PvE and makes me very happy, is there anything in the works on fixing pets in PvP on their hit rate?

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

The systemic change we’ve been working on to get in place for Heart of Thorns to help with pet and spirit survivability can be read about now

Cool! Will be interesting to see the impact of this when it goes live!

:-)

What do you mean, I will actually have to micro manage my pet in boss fights now?

This is getting to complex for me! Maybe I should roll a warrior…

Is it PvE only or will it also apply for PvP and WvW?

+1 that u have done this
-1 that it sounds like that u only did this because of the raids and not the complains over years
so u give the QQ community enough fuel to fire against u

I am sorry, but Roy states it’s only for PvE (WvW is PvP), anything planned for WvW, eg, zerg fights?

snow.8097:

+1 that u have done this
-1 that it sounds like that u only did this because of the raids and not the complains over years
so u give the QQ community enough fuel to fire against u

Well it was essentially a buff no?

Pets taking no damage, changed to 95% damage reduction.

Not that it plays into the narrative that we only see changes because they benefit us before :P

I’m pretty sure it works in wvw, just not against players.

on that note: do attacks by other pets count as attacks by players? do siege weapons count as attacks by players?

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

The systemic change we’ve been working on to get in place for Heart of Thorns to help with pet and spirit survivability can be read about now

This change should be applied to wvw too.

In wvw rangers play perma without F skills becouse pet insta dies. Other classes can use their F skills whenever they want. Rangers can’ t becouse pet is perma dead.

This goes on for 3 years. It’ s time to think about that.

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

The systemic change we’ve been working on to get in place for Heart of Thorns to help with pet and spirit survivability can be read about now

So there is no plans yet to make pets survivable vs aoe and/or conditions in spvp? I would like to see some changes regarding our condition clears, a good chunk of our access to it revolves around sending it to our pet (empathic bond and signet of renewal). Jumping into a fight vs 3 enemies (aoe is not rare to come by) will without fail kill both our pets with no way to counteract it aside from leaving the fight, which is not always the best choice.
I would like to know why you exclude spvp (and wvw) when it comes to pet survivability. I can’t see a reason why pets should insta-die vs players as opposed to pve mobs, it’s not like anyone actually focuses pets in teamfights, they die regardless (utilities like “Protect Me!” doesn’t really help make things better).
I appreciate that pets can now survive in more pve content, but it will remain a problem in pvp, and I can’t see why it should be different.

hi guys, please have a look at the suggestions I left in the new thread Irenio posted in. support these suggestions as theyre relevant to pvp/wvw players, or simply come up with your own. there are several easy solutions they could implement for us in those game modes. as things stand, this is a huge missed opportunity and a bit of a letdown. I apologize to the pve folks, but I don’t give a hoot about GW2’s pve. but still, minions/ai builds remain completely unviable in wvw and pvp.

I can’t see a reason why pets should insta-die vs players

Don’t use birds and you wont have this problem

I’m OK with pets being kill-able by players, but dead pets should only have a 30s cooldown tops, not 60.

Holland.9351:

I’m OK with pets being kill-able by players, but dead pets should only have a 30s cooldown tops, not 60.

should be 15 sec

Now that the technology is in place you need to add it to WvW and PvP and just change the damage reduction to 50% for those game modes (possibly higher for WvW).

let is scale up with the number of enemy players nearby, like how they can scale up events the same way.

Heheheh not a bad change at all. When/if the core shouts get tweaked I think ill be pretty kitten set with my beast master build. This + the we heal as one shift is gonna make things better for my shout playstyle atleast.

Shadelang.3012:

Heheheh not a bad change at all. When/if the core shouts get tweaked I think ill be pretty kitten set with my beast master build. This + the we heal as one shift is gonna make things better for my shout playstyle atleast.

please don’t use my character’s name in your speech.

Kitty.1502:

Shadelang.3012:

Heheheh not a bad change at all. When/if the core shouts get tweaked I think ill be pretty kitten set with my beast master build. This + the we heal as one shift is gonna make things better for my shout playstyle atleast.

please don’t use my character’s name in your speech.

There are entirely too many y’s in your name for that to apply

this is a very nice improvement for any class that uses a pet based mechanic but especially nice for ranger. I’m happy! news like this makes me glad I bought HoT once again.

Sicarius.4639:

snow.8097:

+1 that u have done this
-1 that it sounds like that u only did this because of the raids and not the complains over years
so u give the QQ community enough fuel to fire against u

Well it was essentially a buff no?

Pets taking no damage, changed to 95% damage reduction.

Not that it plays into the narrative that we only see changes because they benefit us before :P

dont get me wrong, i appreciate the change, it was needed and the way they done it is just perfect, i think the ability to transfer it to wvw zerg fights is simply not possible at the moment and when i know in some places u could exploit this
I just know this forum for a while and know some could use this to find again an argument “how hated the class is”

Some people just want to see the world burn, and some of them start with the forum and flame it down

Puck.9612:

Now that the technology is in place you need to add it to WvW and PvP and just change the damage reduction to 50% for those game modes (possibly higher for WvW).

I just want to clarify that this should only be for ranger pets, things like spirits and turrets should rely on smart positioning. We don’t want someone bunkering a point with a bunch of spirits that you have to target one by one.

More than anything pets need a reduction in the amount of condi damage they can take since they are slow to respond and they run in and out of fire rings and other condi fields.