Guild Wars 2

Geotherma.2395:

I know there is always the question in game forums about balance. Some people think a class or classes should get a nerf and some think a class or classes should get a boost. It is never an easy thing as any developer, designer, or anyone who knows the game industry can tell you. But there are certain times the call for nerfing or buffing is just a rant on some particular aspect they dislike. This works beyond classes and can be various parts of the game. A food change can affect a class, a class change can affect a style of play and so on and so on. ….. . To alleviate some ill conceptions about what balance is and is not I’ve found and interesting web clip that can answer some questions and enlighten those who wish to view it. http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/perfect-imbalance

Imo, Ranger has none of the required aspects mentioned in the clip.

Ranger has no edge over any other profession. In fact it is the other way around. All other professions have an edge over Ranger.

I just hope the Ranger traits and pet AI get better one day.

Give us an edge, and some decent build diversity!

Gasmask plays a ranger and he’s top 3 in the leaderboards. Not to say ranger doesn’t need work in other areas of the game.

I have spent my entire GW2 life, outside of leveling the characters and farming money for gear, roaming WvW.

I avoid zerging and look for the small skirmish fights. 1v1s 1v2s and such.

I have over 3,000 kills. No zerging.

I have experienced a great deal of success as my:
-Ranger, Turkish Krul
-Mesmer, Phorin Krul
-Guardian, Inquisitor Krul, OR
-Thief, Crybaby Peepeepants. (Toon created because Anet obviously thinks thieves are working as intended and I got tired of whining about it. I was going to name him Nerf Thieves but the name was taken.

Now the reason I went through all of that was so that the following made any kind of sense.

I win fights WAAY more than I lose. I hate to die, or even get downed. You can watch a couple videos I put up of Turkish roaming.

At one point or another, I have either had my butt handed to me, or lost a fight to EVERY class in the game…. Except Ranger.

On any character, I have never lost a 1v1 to a Ranger. Ever. I HAVE lost to everything else, even if only once or twice.

What can that tell me about Rangers?

Ranger as Bunker is very Good

Ranger as a Full Glas Canon ist one of the worst Classes in Gw2

That video contradicts itself and in some cases just flat out wrong.

I like the chess example. It’s true that the game is perfectly balanced. Because it is perfectly balanced, it comes down to who the better player is. In a PvP environment, this is very important. Why do you think that any character that goes to do WvWvW is boosted up to lvl 80. To help balance the difference that a difference in lvl would make.

Now looking at the game rock, paper, scissors. This game is more chance based (you can try and “read” you opponent to take an educated guess at what they are gonna do) but that aside, it too, is balanced. Perfectly so.

Players understand the concept of rock, paper, scissors and how it applies to MMOs. The problem with the RPS element is that it will detract from player skill. Rock beats scissors no matter how good a player scissors is.

If the ranger was specifically designed to be able to beat thieves, then you can have highly skilled thief players getting beat by rookies playing rangers. This is why the chess concept is better than the RPS concept in games like this. We have multiple builds and skills to work with. Many options. The skill of the player comes down to know what skill to use and when in the current situation. However, you can’t take every skill with every build. While a particular build can give you a certain strength and weakness, no build should be better than another. Just different. And while some builds will be better for a particular situation, that shouldn’t mean that all the other possible builds are not at least viable in that same situation. No one single build should excel in every situation.

Min/maxing is not a good thing. This works under the idea that a particular build is better than another and not just different. It leads to, “if you use that build, you are playing the game wrong”. It is the product of the kind of imbalance you don’t want where a particular build isn’t just different, it leaves you in a kitten state where another build will work better and not just differently for a different situation.

With a game like this, the RPS concept isn’t a circle but rather a spiderweb interconnecting all the race/class combinations against one another. You also don’t want this concept completely just as you don’t want the chess concept completely (where everyone is identical to everyone else). You want to find a balance and incorporate these two concepts together in a way that works for the game.

Also, there have been issues that people have not changed their tune about since launch. I think that is beyond the “wait a week and see if the players come up with a solution”. Coping with a flaw, drawback or shortcoming is not the same as players playing the meta game.

Ranger as bunker is not very useful in group fights. You being difficult to kill is not beneficial to your teammates since you aren’t providing boons/heals to the degree a guardian is and your aren’t providing the boons/crowd_control/heals of a tanky elementalist.

It’s quite lackluster.

Additionally, being tanky is overrated. I got killed in 1.5 seconds last night by a Thief. Dropped me from 100% to 0% in 1.5 seconds and I was wearing a full set of exotic/ascended knight’s gear (can’t get more toughness than that) and had 20 points in Wilderness … so I had 2.1k+ toughness. The only think I didn’t have was protection … which, given how quickly I was dropped, would have made it take 2 seconds (33% of 1.5 is 0.5, 1.5 + 0.5 = 2.0). That was ridiculous, especially given that the steal, backstab, etc. garbage gives you no animation to work off of for blocking, dodging, etc.. You have to guess … it’s ridiculous.

Tank is good against people who don’t know how to bust tanks. Those who do, bust them very hard … which begs the question of why be a real tank … something many of us have been asking across several classes since the state of the game interview in which the developers mentioned “Thieves damage is as high as it is so that they can still burst tanks”. If you’re a tank and you can still be burst, what is the point of being the tank in the first place?!

The video is right. We should have skills/builds thaf fill a niche. I also suggest you to watch their video about depth and easy games thinking about our traits and skills.

careful now, give it a few hours and the ‘rangers are amazing at everything’ dreamteam will be up and ready to defend.

To answer the title question, we’ve waited how many months? We’ve been given a cursory glance, a bucket of false promises and a saddening amount of undeserved nerfs.

They’ll probably fix Rangers on the same day that Anet does something about the sorry state of legendaries and how they aren’t epic to acquire in the slightest.

swiftpaw.6397:

careful now, give it a few hours and the ‘rangers are amazing at everything’ dreamteam will be up and ready to defend.

Aye. I’ve prepared for the stehl rehn of “L2play” and deep-strike insults from the Ultraproz.

Sebrent.3625:

Ranger as bunker is not very useful in group fights. You being difficult to kill is not beneficial to your teammates since you aren’t providing boons/heals to the degree a guardian is and your aren’t providing the boons/crowd_control/heals of a tanky elementalist.

It’s quite lackluster.

Additionally, being tanky is overrated. I got killed in 1.5 seconds last night by a Thief. Dropped me from 100% to 0% in 1.5 seconds and I was wearing a full set of exotic/ascended knight’s gear (can’t get more toughness than that) and had 20 points in Wilderness … so I had 2.1k+ toughness. The only think I didn’t have was protection … which, given how quickly I was dropped, would have made it take 2 seconds (33% of 1.5 is 0.5, 1.5 + 0.5 = 2.0). That was ridiculous, especially given that the steal, backstab, etc. garbage gives you no animation to work off of for blocking, dodging, etc.. You have to guess … it’s ridiculous.

Tank is good against people who don’t know how to bust tanks. Those who do, bust them very hard … which begs the question of why be a real tank … something many of us have been asking across several classes since the state of the game interview in which the developers mentioned “Thieves damage is as high as it is so that they can still burst tanks”. If you’re a tank and you can still be burst, what is the point of being the tank in the first place?!

Now are we talking sPvP? Or in general here? (I’m imagining in general) because I can name a good amount of advantages to just being hard to kill in sPvP…

As for being able to be burst down as a tank, it kinda makes sense, you’re not supposed to be a true tank, you’re just supposed to outlive the enemy, and I’ve won against a good amount of those bursty thieves with my bunker ranger (granted this was in sPvP where crit damage doesn’t go into the 100s) because I was twitchy enough to use Protect Me! After the steal.

That being said… We do need a sort of RPS element, which there is in GW2 (LOOSELY iE: Rock doesn’t always beat scissors it just has an advantage), it roughly goes as Sustain > tanks > burst > support > condis > sustain.

swiftpaw.6397:

careful now, give it a few hours and the ‘rangers are amazing at everything’ dreamteam will be up and ready to defend.

O.o I hope this isn’t aimed at me because I say rangers are good… Now I’m curious to see whose oblivious/ignorant enough to think rangers are amazing at everything because we’re certainly lacking in a few areas (but make up in others).

I would disagree with your graph.

I largely play burst on my Mesmer and what kills me is other burst. I kill anything else.

Why? Because I can get decent toughness with Cavalier and still have great power with Berserker. Both give crit damage. And now, with food and oil, I’m hitting you for well over 200% what I usually would … reliably. Add to that the fact that I can hit you with multiple things at once and remove your boons and it’s “light’s out, sunshine”.

The thief is even worse as they are given several instant casts that are just some of the hardest hitting skills in the game AND have no animation. My Mesmer at least lets you see the shatter, etc. coming.

Durzlla.6295:

swiftpaw.6397:

careful now, give it a few hours and the ‘rangers are amazing at everything’ dreamteam will be up and ready to defend.

O.o I hope this isn’t aimed at me because I say rangers are good… Now I’m curious to see whose oblivious/ignorant enough to think rangers are amazing at everything because we’re certainly lacking in a few areas (but make up in others).

Our support skills and boon availability are subpar, our damage is below average assuming you don’t want to be pigeonholed into traps , and having to rely on an AI companion for a chunk of our effectiveness is still spotty and at times infuriating. Oh, and LB and GS (maul update was nice, now let’s make the AA not hit like a wet noodle) still need work. Traits need work as well, but I’ll be the first to admit I don’t even know where they can start with those.

Sebrent.3625:

I would disagree with your graph.

I largely play burst on my Mesmer and what kills me is other burst. I kill anything else.

Why? Because I can get decent toughness with Cavalier and still have great power with Berserker. Both give crit damage. And now, with food and oil, I’m hitting you for well over 200% what I usually would … reliably. Add to that the fact that I can hit you with multiple things at once and remove your boons and it’s “light’s out, sunshine”.

The thief is even worse as they are given several instant casts that are just some of the hardest hitting skills in the game AND have no animation. My Mesmer at least lets you see the shatter, etc. coming.

Lol mine was more aimed at sPvP where numbers get capped out xD

Oh WvW you’re ridiculous… My ranger wades through there like the kittening juggernaut due to having 65% condi and stun duration reduction (or something REALLY close to that) and then there’s GS just making me evade every 3 swings and allowing me to fly around the battle field like the angel of death (quoted by my friend post GS buff lol).

WvW is just silly with some of the stuff you can do….

The Spiral King.2483:

Durzlla.6295:

swiftpaw.6397:

careful now, give it a few hours and the ‘rangers are amazing at everything’ dreamteam will be up and ready to defend.

O.o I hope this isn’t aimed at me because I say rangers are good… Now I’m curious to see whose oblivious/ignorant enough to think rangers are amazing at everything because we’re certainly lacking in a few areas (but make up in others).

Our support skills and boon availability are subpar, our damage is below average assuming you don’t want to be pigeonholed into traps , and having to rely on an AI companion for a chunk of our effectiveness is still spotty and at times infuriating. Oh, and LB and GS (maul update was nice, now let’s make the AA not hit like a wet noodle) still need work. Traits need work as well, but I’ll be the first to admit I don’t even know where they can start with those.

LB is great damage wise…. Now keeping people at range and living is a different story…

As for our traits, they’re -ok-, i much prefer my Engis trait options (which is why I don’t play him, I literally want every trait on there but like 2), our Utilities are a train wreck though, I mean…. Just look at them, the only ones worth their weight are Survival and Traps, shouts and signets can be useful in some builds, but are generally better off being something else, and spirits can be good, only in very niche areas though, VERY VERY niche.

And our damage as a whole isn’t subpar, the ranger (like in GW1) deals in constant damage not burst, if you wanna be a Burst hero ranger is not for you. And I don’t use a trap build (I -do- use a trap or two) and I can pump out good damage, but we certainly need more options.

And pet AI, it’s… Ok? I guess? It certainly needs work, but it’s decent enough atm, that being said they’re working on fixing the pet AI as is.

I should probably update my sig so people can realize I think our utilities are utter kitten at a glance instead of being “hurr durr you think rangers good so you think everything we has wurks!”

And that would be absolutely no problem if you could actually see him approaching you . But you cant . Hence its a design problem . But it has been said that it is working as intended .

Chopps.5047:

Gasmask plays a ranger and he’s top 3 in the leaderboards. Not to say ranger doesn’t need work in other areas of the game.

Yes but how many more of each class is there up there compared to rangers. Your quite silly arent you Chopps?

Frosti.4856:

Chopps.5047:

Gasmask plays a ranger and he’s top 3 in the leaderboards. Not to say ranger doesn’t need work in other areas of the game.

Yes but how many more of each class is there up there compared to rangers. Your quite silly arent you Chopps?

Well seein as Gasmask is #1…. I’m gonna go ahead and say rangers are in a fairly goo spot an it’s a L2P problem…

Not sayin we don’t need some love granted.

I don’t think most Rangers who are complaining are complaining about sPvP. We’re stronger there because the extremes that other classes can bring everywhere else are not available there and our pets, a large part of our class, are more comparable to classes that now don’t have ascended gear, food, oil, etc..

Heck, my pet is supposed to be a large part of me but I have to trait 15 points Nature Magic to give boons I get to my pet … and even then it’s not the same duration as the boon I get but instead a very gimping duration dictated by the trait.

Runes of Melandru and Lemongrass are nice to have … though I wish they weren’t in the game (along with Rare Veggie Pizza and other similar things). Runes of Melandru does not save you from burst damage.

I agree with the Greatsword in WvW. It’s wonderful. I will not give it up! Traited, you have a 1,100 leap every 9.25 seconds.

Yeup, rumor has it rangers have a wonderful spec or 2 floating around.

Not saying the others can’t use a buff/tweaks though.

Sebrent.3625:

I don’t think most Rangers who are complaining are complaining about sPvP. We’re stronger there because the extremes that other classes can bring everywhere else are not available there and our pets, a large part of our class, are more comparable to classes that now don’t have ascended gear, food, oil, etc..

Heck, my pet is supposed to be a large part of me but I have to trait 15 points Nature Magic to give boons I get to my pet … and even then it’s not the same duration as the boon I get but instead a very gimping duration dictated by the trait.

Runes of Melandru and Lemongrass are nice to have … though I wish they weren’t in the game (along with Rare Veggie Pizza and other similar things). Runes of Melandru does not save you from burst damage.

I agree with the Greatsword in WvW. It’s wonderful. I will not give it up! Traited, you have a 1,100 leap every 9.25 seconds.

It does not, you’re right, but the Soldier Armor I’m working on certainly does xD.

Yeah, I really think that food and oil buffs should also be spread to our pet(s), or give some WvW “Beast Master” perk that makes pets deal more damage and makes them practically immune to AoE so that pet builds can actually exist in WvW, because we kinda are the only prof that can’t just swap some traits and utilities to remove our pets… That or they make it baseline in WvW since that’s the only real area of issue.

Until then, you can see me and chuckles either Zerg surfing with the GS or playing with a catapult!

When someone points to Leaderboard rankings and says “Well there is a Ranger at the top on the leader boards, rangers must be good” don’t understand that’s not very much true in the real world.

I’ll give an example

When I played DAOC, I rolled a Valkyrie after coming back from WoW. When i rolled this valkyrie they were the worst class in the game by far. They were basically weaker versions of Thanes back then. Very few people played them…In fact I came back 6 month’s after they came out, took a month to level one, and still was the first RR5 Valkyrie on the US servers.. so that should tell you something (I was the first RR10 one as well)

Anyway, When I played my Valkyrie, I played in an 8man that was considered one of the best, if not the best on Merlin. We won probably 95% of our fights..and yet I played the worst class in the game in our groups.

Long story short … someone can play the weakest class in a game (even a broken class) but be blessed with enough skill and skilled enough teammates that they can succeed as a team.

That is not to say that the person playing the broken/weak class wouldn’t make the team more successful by being a more powerful class.

Durzlla.6295:

Sebrent.3625:

I don’t think most Rangers who are complaining are complaining about sPvP. We’re stronger there because the extremes that other classes can bring everywhere else are not available there and our pets, a large part of our class, are more comparable to classes that now don’t have ascended gear, food, oil, etc..

Heck, my pet is supposed to be a large part of me but I have to trait 15 points Nature Magic to give boons I get to my pet … and even then it’s not the same duration as the boon I get but instead a very gimping duration dictated by the trait.

Runes of Melandru and Lemongrass are nice to have … though I wish they weren’t in the game (along with Rare Veggie Pizza and other similar things). Runes of Melandru does not save you from burst damage.

I agree with the Greatsword in WvW. It’s wonderful. I will not give it up! Traited, you have a 1,100 leap every 9.25 seconds.

…..

Yeah, I really think that food and oil buffs should also be spread to our pet(s), or give some WvW “Beast Master” perk that makes pets deal more damage and makes them practically immune to AoE so that pet builds can actually exist in WvW, because we kinda are the only prof that can’t just swap some traits and utilities to remove our pets… That or they make it baseline in WvW since that’s the only real area of issue.

…..

I agree. It is in www and group contribution Ranger lacks the edge compared to other professions.

Yep … let’s look at the 0/10/0/30/30 d/d elementalist …

Mobility

• Top Dog … if they have lightning flash they beat warrior, otherwise a warrior with Greatsword / Sword+X and perma-swiftness can be faster.

Stunbreaks

• 4 Cantrips that are excellent. Equip 3 and be happy.

Condition Removal =

• Swap Attunement to Water … heal, gain regen to you and allies, and remove a condition
• OH Dagger – Water – Cleansing Wave … heal and remove a condition from you and allies
• Dodge Roll – Water – Cleansing Wave … heal and remove a condition again
• Ether Renewal removes up to 8.
• Each Cantrip removes at least one thanks to traits.
  • One of them removes 3 on its own and 1 more (total 4) w/ traits.
  • yes, those same utilities are both stunbreakers and condition removal in this build * they also give regen and vigor thanks to traits … and then they have their actual spell effects like teleporting, protection + stability, AOE Fire, or invulnerability

Heals

• If using Signet of Restoration, autoattacking nothing heals them
• Constant 100% up-time on regen (swapping to water and use of cantrips)
• Swapping to Water Attunement
• MH Dagger – Water – Cone of Cold
• OH Dagger – Water – Cleansing Wave
• Dodge Roll – Water – Cleansing Wave

Boons

• Give MIght to you and allies when you swap to fire
• Give Swiftness to you and allies when you swap to air
• Give Regeneration to you and allies when you swap to water
• Give Protection to you and allies when you swap to earth
• Sigil of Battle works off attunement swapping
• Gain fury when you swap attunements (to/from any attunement)
• Gain Swiftness and Fury when you use Frost or Shock Aura
• Gain Swfitness when you knock someone down with Updraft
• Gain Vigor when you crit
• Gain Vigor and Regen when you use a Cantrip

Damage Mitigation

• 100% up-time on Protection
• Frost Aura – 10% more mitigation (43% with Protection) and chill anyone that hits you (because you’re already “so easy” to catch).
• Shock Aura – stun anyone that hits you

… oh yeah … now that you have 100% up-time on 6 different boons (might, fury, swiftness, protection, regeneration, and vigor), you have +2% damage per boon on you … enjoy the extra +12% damage for being so awesome.

It’s no wonder we see so many dagger+dagger elementalists in WvW. They are great solo and they still provide lots of love to others nearby as well.

We rangers can’t even do half of that. Heck, With +90% boon duration (2 Superior Monk, 2 Superior Water, 2 Major Water, Omnomberry Cream, and 30 in Nature’s Magic) you still don’t get 100% up-time on 1 stack of Might, Fury, and Swiftness from Call of the Wild unless you also get the 20 point Wilderness Survival trait to reduce the cooldown by 20%.

Oh yeah, boons applied by your pet aren’t going to benefit from that +90% boon duration you have.

awe extender.1908:

Geotherma.2395:

I know there is always the question in game forums about balance. Some people think a class or classes should get a nerf and some think a class or classes should get a boost. It is never an easy thing as any developer, designer, or anyone who knows the game industry can tell you. But there are certain times the call for nerfing or buffing is just a rant on some particular aspect they dislike. This works beyond classes and can be various parts of the game. A food change can affect a class, a class change can affect a style of play and so on and so on. ….. . To alleviate some ill conceptions about what balance is and is not I’ve found and interesting web clip that can answer some questions and enlighten those who wish to view it. http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/perfect-imbalance

Imo, Ranger has none of the required aspects mentioned in the clip.

Ranger has no edge over any other profession. In fact it is the other way around. All other professions have an edge over Ranger.

I just hope the Ranger traits and pet AI get better one day.

Give us an edge, and some decent build diversity!

Yeah, I’m sorry, but that pennyarcade video has no merit because it sited League of Legends as an example of perfect imbalance. It has the most stale, slowly changing metagame of its genre, hands down.

Though, back on topic, perfect imbalance implies a state of near-balance that makes the classes comparable in a competitive format, even if some have a slight edge.

There is no slight edge in Guild Wars 2. Professions like the Warrior, the Guardian, and the Mesmer are blatantly superior in PvE and professions like the Guardian, the Mesmer, and the Elementalist are blatantly superior to others in PvP.

It is a 7 month old game . Its live course will probably be 4 or 5 . Things will change , hopefully .

@Seberent, I think I almost cried reading the d/d ele post because its so true (keep in mind I play ele, although I found dagger boring IE: too easy, so went staff), I’m surprised they haven’t been nerfed harder yet… Their jack of all trades nature should make them -ok- at everything until they specialize (where they can do that one thing and be meh at everything else) not be amazing at everything.

Yeah, my 80s are Mesmer (Asura and Norn), Elementalist (Asura), and Ranger (Norn). I’ve retired the Elementalist for now … may replace him with Norn.

It was ridiculous what I could get away with. I even tried that build while wearing full berserker and did quite well with it. Put them in Soldier’s and they are stupid hard to kill while still being very dangerous.

Sebrent.3625:

Yeah, my 80s are Mesmer (Asura and Norn), Elementalist (Asura), and Ranger (Norn). I’ve retired the Elementalist for now … may replace him with Norn.

It was ridiculous what I could get away with. I even tried that build while wearing full berserker and did quite well with it. Put them in Soldier’s and they are stupid hard to kill while still being very dangerous.

I know I made a build on my friends ele (he’s fully loaded on gear) and was able to nearly one shot people with berserker gear + lightning hammer, god that was disgusting.

Chokolata.1870:

It is a 7 month old game . Its live course will probably be 4 or 5 . Things will change , hopefully .

They won’t. Anet has a horrible track record with this stuff. I had hoped that it would be different this time around because they didn’t have to juggle a thousand skills and the game worked differently but it seems that they fell back into their own BS where PvE is dominated by a very specific build/ set of builds and pvp stagnates because they are afraid to actually balance anything actively.

All I can hope for is that they don’t make things any worse.

They just seem to have a terrible aversion to obvious fixes.

The first character I ever played in GW2 was my Ranger. I have over 23k+ WvW kills on him alone. I have 5 other lv 80 fully geared WvW and PvP vetted classes that I am very proficient at playing based on what builds and rolls they play in WvW and PvP. The current joke when you get killed by every other class one-on-one in WvW and PvP right now is why you are playing a Ranger? Pick another class, everyone knows Rangers suck. Although improvements have been made to a degree with how long you will survive against a well-played counter class it is extremely obvious to all those who have ever played a ranger in competitive WvW and PvP how disadvantaged the class is in a one-on-one solo fights against equally skilled appoints of other class types regardless of which build you use. Whenever I see a solo Ranger in WvW while runing to get to a keep etc. I say to myself free loot bag with legs and don’t think twice about killing them. All the other classes I look at what buffs they run to see if they know what they are doing before I attack. Rangers are a no brainer just attack them and collect your loot. Everyone has an opinion about what build, gear, food, etc. etc. etc. you should have used depending on what killed you but the fact of the matter is that there is no balance in the class that puts it on an equal footing with any other class of the same level and skill. Anyone who tells you otherwise has not played the class and does not know what they are talking about. For example if you build your ranger to be able to live longer against a thief class you get smoked worse by the other 7 class types due to the weakness of a thief build. I can take any of my other 5 lv80 classes and find 2 builds that can defend against and defeat multiple other classes. The ranger class lacks the ability to do this. You will find that many of the best rangers who started playing as rangers when the game first came out will now avoid choosing that class and are often asked to not bring it into WvW or PvP competitive events because it puts the team at a disadvantage right from the start. It is kind of like dodge ball, Ranger gets picked last. I don’t know if this class can ever be a viable PvP or WvW class at this point now that fury and GS has been nerfed. The other classes just bring far more too any group they join. I hope Arena Net can figure it out because I am done theory crafting for hours and hours and hours trying to figure out how to make a Ranger competitive when they already start at a disadvantage.

Once and for All this class was designed and made to Fail. I Don’t Understand why some of you fail to get it!! All the Evidence are there right in front of you. To put it in simpler term; this class intentionally “was Dead on arrival” to GW2 and was used as a scapegoat for the improvements and enhancements to The Elitist classes.
False Hope, Lies, Manipulations and Delusional tactics, how much more do you want me to say?

Durzlla.6295:

swiftpaw.6397:

careful now, give it a few hours and the ‘rangers are amazing at everything’ dreamteam will be up and ready to defend.

O.o I hope this isn’t aimed at me because I say rangers are good… Now I’m curious to see whose oblivious/ignorant enough to think rangers are amazing at everything because we’re certainly lacking in a few areas (but make up in others).

No not you, you’ve got a rational head on your shoulders I have found. There’s nothing wrong with talking about the merits of the class. There are a few (who I wont name) however who are just a tad fanatic and wont accept any criticism at all, no matter how valid.

Burnfall.9573:

Once and for All this class was designed and made to Fail. I Don’t Understand why some of you fail to get it!! All the Evidence are there right in front of you. To put it in simpler term; this class intentionally “was Dead on arrival” to GW2 and was used as a scapegoat for the improvements and enhancements to The Elitist classes.
False Hope, Lies, Manipulations and Delusional tactics, how much more do you want me to say?

I’ve made it into so many premades off my ranger.
Like top 100~ leaderboard premades.

ski.4927:

I have spent my entire GW2 life, outside of leveling the characters and farming money for gear, roaming WvW.

I avoid zerging and look for the small skirmish fights. 1v1s 1v2s and such.

I have over 3,000 kills. No zerging.

I have experienced a great deal of success as my:
-Ranger, Turkish Krul
-Mesmer, Phorin Krul
-Guardian, Inquisitor Krul, OR
-Thief, Crybaby Peepeepants. (Toon created because Anet obviously thinks thieves are working as intended and I got tired of whining about it. I was going to name him Nerf Thieves but the name was taken.

Now the reason I went through all of that was so that the following made any kind of sense.

I win fights WAAY more than I lose. I hate to die, or even get downed. You can watch a couple videos I put up of Turkish roaming.

At one point or another, I have either had my butt handed to me, or lost a fight to EVERY class in the game…. Except Ranger.

On any character, I have never lost a 1v1 to a Ranger. Ever. I HAVE lost to everything else, even if only once or twice.

What can that tell me about Rangers?

Have you fought many tanky beast master rangers? Most rangers in WvW build for ranged damage, zerg warfare or supply camp flipping. Roaming rangers are far less common than most professions because the best builds for it (imo the tanky beast master build) don’t translate well to other elements of the game. A glass cannon crit damage mesmer is going to do well in a zerg, a dungeon or while roaming. A beast master ranger is still going to have a dead pet in a zerg and in a dungeon, only this time they won’t be able to do much damage themselves.

The ranger is in a unique position where their class mechanic is viable in one element of the game (sPvP) but it’s terrible in another (dungeons). Stealth, attunement swapping, adrenaline, death shroud, clones and the tool belt all work fine in dungeons so build which support them don’t suffer dramatically. Pets don’t work fine in zergs and they don’t work fine in dungeons so many rangers don’t build them (it’s wasted trait points and often armour sets if you choose to run clerics) because you are building for a very niche area of the game. The tanky BM rangers I have seen videos of make very effective use of the self healing (BM 30 point trait, Signet of the Wild, Healing Spring plus two regen traits), the great DPS a pet can provide in 1 v 1 combat (remember that most content in GW2 favours AoE whereas almost every pet does single target damage) and the somewhat tankyness of having high toughness and vitality (and sometimes even Barkskin) combined with high healing power. Most classes would hit like a wet noodle when built like this, but many rangers can build like this to tank their opponent and still do decent DPS via their pet and condition damage.

It’s possible you just never faced off against a proper roaming ranger build.

Rangers would be fine if they fixed pets…. like that will every happen…

If pets actually hit more consistently, a bit harder (with any build), and survived a bit better without (intentionally) just standing in attacks (hello, something is about to hit you???) even after calling them back to you (since they have a radius around the player where they could be anywhere within, and there is really no way to precisely control that atm)…. we might actually be in a pretty good spot in general.

However, right now… there are a few niche builds that can be used for a very finite set of scenarios.

As for perfect imbalance? In laymans terms, just means that classes should be balanced enough overall, that the specific build a player chooses gives them some sort of unique advantage/trait that they can use to overcome other builds and or classes. This doesn’t mean that each build can just act without thinking, but must think “I have this advantage, how do I use it to overcome this obstacle” and maybe even scrap the build altogether for another if need be because the challenge is too different from what their current builds capabilities offer.

Use the terrain to your advantage (which is apparently against Anets philosophy for having a “fair fight” lol), in a group relying on others abilities to control/support/etc.; perfect imbalance should be about finding ways to take the initiative by using what you have and making the enemy fight on your terms; it’s not just about having x build be stronger than y build.

Sebrent.3625:

Yep … let’s look at the 0/10/0/30/30 d/d elementalist …

Mobility

• Top Dog … if they have lightning flash they beat warrior, otherwise a warrior with Greatsword / Sword+X and perma-swiftness can be faster.

Stunbreaks

• 4 Cantrips that are excellent. Equip 3 and be happy.

Condition Removal =

• Swap Attunement to Water … heal, gain regen to you and allies, and remove a condition
• OH Dagger – Water – Cleansing Wave … heal and remove a condition from you and allies
• Dodge Roll – Water – Cleansing Wave … heal and remove a condition again
• Ether Renewal removes up to 8.
• Each Cantrip removes at least one thanks to traits.
  • One of them removes 3 on its own and 1 more (total 4) w/ traits.
  • yes, those same utilities are both stunbreakers and condition removal in this build * they also give regen and vigor thanks to traits … and then they have their actual spell effects like teleporting, protection + stability, AOE Fire, or invulnerability

Heals

• If using Signet of Restoration, autoattacking nothing heals them
• Constant 100% up-time on regen (swapping to water and use of cantrips)
• Swapping to Water Attunement
• MH Dagger – Water – Cone of Cold
• OH Dagger – Water – Cleansing Wave
• Dodge Roll – Water – Cleansing Wave

Boons

• Give MIght to you and allies when you swap to fire
• Give Swiftness to you and allies when you swap to air
• Give Regeneration to you and allies when you swap to water
• Give Protection to you and allies when you swap to earth
• Sigil of Battle works off attunement swapping
• Gain fury when you swap attunements (to/from any attunement)
• Gain Swiftness and Fury when you use Frost or Shock Aura
• Gain Swfitness when you knock someone down with Updraft
• Gain Vigor when you crit
• Gain Vigor and Regen when you use a Cantrip

Damage Mitigation

• 100% up-time on Protection
• Frost Aura – 10% more mitigation (43% with Protection) and chill anyone that hits you (because you’re already “so easy” to catch).
• Shock Aura – stun anyone that hits you

… oh yeah … now that you have 100% up-time on 6 different boons (might, fury, swiftness, protection, regeneration, and vigor), you have +2% damage per boon on you … enjoy the extra +12% damage for being so awesome.

It’s no wonder we see so many dagger+dagger elementalists in WvW. They are great solo and they still provide lots of love to others nearby as well.

---

We rangers can’t even do half of that. Heck, With +90% boon duration (2 Superior Monk, 2 Superior Water, 2 Major Water, Omnomberry Cream, and 30 in Nature’s Magic) you still don’t get 100% up-time on 1 stack of Might, Fury, and Swiftness from Call of the Wild unless you also get the 20 point Wilderness Survival trait to reduce the cooldown by 20%.

Oh yeah, boons applied by your pet aren’t going to benefit from that +90% boon duration you have.

Pretty much…. Its amazing how much easier other classes have with getting boons

Funny enough , the best fights i ever had in WvW are in the Battle grounds jumping puzzle . So many walls , platforms and dodge areas . I win so many fights there even with dual bows , because i can use the terrain . Doesnt work against solid charget 1 click spammer classes like thiefs though .Or i may just have a mental block against thiefs . It is possible

Shiren.9532:

ski.4927:

I have spent my entire GW2 life, outside of leveling the characters and farming money for gear, roaming WvW.

I avoid zerging and look for the small skirmish fights. 1v1s 1v2s and such.

I have over 3,000 kills. No zerging.

I have experienced a great deal of success as my:
-Ranger, Turkish Krul
-Mesmer, Phorin Krul
-Guardian, Inquisitor Krul, OR
-Thief, Crybaby Peepeepants. (Toon created because Anet obviously thinks thieves are working as intended and I got tired of whining about it. I was going to name him Nerf Thieves but the name was taken.

Now the reason I went through all of that was so that the following made any kind of sense.

I win fights WAAY more than I lose. I hate to die, or even get downed. You can watch a couple videos I put up of Turkish roaming.

At one point or another, I have either had my butt handed to me, or lost a fight to EVERY class in the game…. Except Ranger.

On any character, I have never lost a 1v1 to a Ranger. Ever. I HAVE lost to everything else, even if only once or twice.

What can that tell me about Rangers?

Have you fought many tanky beast master rangers? Most rangers in WvW build for ranged damage, zerg warfare or supply camp flipping. Roaming rangers are far less common than most professions because the best builds for it (imo the tanky beast master build) don’t translate well to other elements of the game. A glass cannon crit damage mesmer is going to do well in a zerg, a dungeon or while roaming. A beast master ranger is still going to have a dead pet in a zerg and in a dungeon, only this time they won’t be able to do much damage themselves.

The ranger is in a unique position where their class mechanic is viable in one element of the game (sPvP) but it’s terrible in another (dungeons). Stealth, attunement swapping, adrenaline, death shroud, clones and the tool belt all work fine in dungeons so build which support them don’t suffer dramatically. Pets don’t work fine in zergs and they don’t work fine in dungeons so many rangers don’t build them (it’s wasted trait points and often armour sets if you choose to run clerics) because you are building for a very niche area of the game. The tanky BM rangers I have seen videos of make very effective use of the self healing (BM 30 point trait, Signet of the Wild, Healing Spring plus two regen traits), the great DPS a pet can provide in 1 v 1 combat (remember that most content in GW2 favours AoE whereas almost every pet does single target damage) and the somewhat tankyness of having high toughness and vitality (and sometimes even Barkskin) combined with high healing power. Most classes would hit like a wet noodle when built like this, but many rangers can build like this to tank their opponent and still do decent DPS via their pet and condition damage.

It’s possible you just never faced off against a proper roaming ranger build.

On Turkish, I AM a proper roaming ranger build. I preferred my BM bunker to be condition vs. power, but I know myway around a ranger. Of course I have come across some of them. They, too, have not taken me down. Remember, I don’t zerg. Most Rangers I have come across were not GC specced, but some other spec. I have seen trap rangers and BM bunkers. Been killed by everything else, but never by a ranger. Ever. In any form.

You can watch a coupe of my videos on youtube regarding bm bunker range roaming. Name’s Turkish Krul, I have a couple of video threads up ni the ranger forums somewhere…

Wow! The guy giving an example of how much he owns in WvW in 1vs1 or 1vs2 fights.. Clueless! Well, he does play as a mesmer and as a thief… Now I know we need people to flip supply camps, disrupt enemy supply lines but we also need people who fight in large groups. Rangers are bad in large groups. No one gives a kitten that I only lost a few fights in sPvP out of more than a hundred. People care about what I do in WvW! And I can barely keep up with the state the class is in right now. Also not having a free armor/weapon/upgrade system in WvW makes this nearly impossible for us to adapt. WvW is just insane expensive for us. We farm weeks to get the right stuff and then Anet goes and nerfs us again and puff!!.. They’re like Suck it losers!! Go waste another month of your lifetime and then we’ll nerf that build as well.

People are misunderstanding the situation. Allow me to explain…

If you are saying that compared to other classes, Rangers are not up to par in small fights, you are correct. We’re not. We’re below average in comparison.

However, in large group zerg fights? angers are fine. Yeah, I said it. We’re fine. Hell, I could even go full berserker longbow and be fine in a zerg. It’s a zerg. You could run naked and be fine in a zerg. Stop crying and go zerg. Zerger Zergiepants…

I am talking about a player versus a player. PvP. Which is what I spend my time doing in WvW. And in this scenario. 1 class vs 1 other class….Ranger is the only class I have never lost to on any of the toons I have played. If you find yourself uncaring about the situation I am describing, then go discuss something else.

“Not to say ranger doesn’t need work in other areas of the game.”

That is correct.

My contributions in a large fight? Frost Trap and Muddy Terrain that keep the enemy from charging in willy-nilly. Sadly, there are plenty of people who just range from outside the 600 range of my Frost Trap throw or 900 range of Muddy Terrain, are using ranged attacks so don’t care, or simply go around (though I love choke points).

Sadly, this isn’t much of an option. It also doesn’t work that well in roaming.

Since I can’t really get 100% up-time on swiftness with any reasonable investment, I often want signet of the hunt up. This gives me less options. If I don’t take it, a fast moving zerg (see: most zergs) will roll right over me even if I have greatsword for the leap on a 9.25s cd (I trait for reduced cd).

Pet AI is my biggest annoyance.

• I’ll fight the same person several times and when my pet does what I tell it to, I win the fight solidly. When my pet acks like a dunderhead (sadly, common), I have a very tough time and even lose against the person I soundly beat beforehand.
  • This is exaggerated by the fact that some of my build, including weapon skills, involves my pet inflicting weakness, chilled, etc. on the target … not to mention damage
• I had an enemy targeted last night and told my Owl to use his F2 on the enemy. The owl proceeded to use his slash right where he was standing (900+ range from the enemy) and then I had to tell him again to attack (F1) before he went to the target … wtf

ski.4927:

People are misunderstanding the situation. Allow me to explain…

If you are saying that compared to other classes, Rangers are not up to par in small fights, you are correct. We’re not. We’re below average in comparison.

However, in large group zerg fights? angers are fine. Yeah, I said it. We’re fine. Hell, I could even go full berserker longbow and be fine in a zerg. It’s a zerg. You could run naked and be fine in a zerg. Stop crying and go zerg. Zerger Zergiepants…

I am talking about a player versus a player. PvP. Which is what I spend my time doing in WvW. And in this scenario. 1 class vs 1 other class….Ranger is the only class I have never lost to on any of the toons I have played. If you find yourself uncaring about the situation I am describing, then go discuss something else.

Um…. Rangers EXCEL at 1v1s and become less useful in zergs…. For skirmishing rangers are one of the best profs, second to thieves (who are -supposed- to be “best” for 1v1s)

Being the best 1v1er in WvW is like being the best in the special Olympics, it’s not that big of an accomplishment when you look at some of the crazy kitten you can do by inflating your stats to an ungodly high.

Go to sPvP if you want “oh well I’ve won X 1v1s on Y prof and haven’t lost!” To even carry weight.

Good point Durz, but are you really going to rank Ranger higher in 1v1 than Mesmer? :-p

The biggest needed buff for the ranger is smarter pet AI, till that happens, the class will always be unbalanced. But the class isn’t nearly as bad as people make it out to be.

Cloud.7613:

The biggest needed buff for the ranger is smarter pet AI, till that happens, the class will always be unbalanced. But the class isn’t nearly as bad as people make it out to be.

You are very correct, Cloud.

When my pet doesn’t bug out and stays on its target, I am a monster.

Unfortunately, it often bugs out and does stupid things that kitten me off and diminish the effectiveness of my Ranger.

The Mesmer suffers from some of these AI issues too (see: Shattered Illusion shatters nowhere near target), but it is largely isolated to sword clones (the only melee ones) and shatters … and sword clones are often shattered quite quickly.