WvW enemy tagging as ranger

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Posted by: Arpheus.6918

Arpheus.6918

With the new WvW-XP tagging as many enemies as possible in zerg fights seems to be very important.
The class that tags most enemies not only gets the most loot (most gold) but also gets rewarded with the most WvW-XP and therefore will be a higher level which helps a bit with the new skills.

When I hear that necromancers or guardians sometimes get 30+ loot bags from a 50+ person zerg I am wondering what I can do to get approximately the same amount of bags. I get alot less. For a 50 man zerg its usually 10-15 loot bags. I run a beastmaster build and use the longbow + greatsword for zerging and I don’t have penetrating shots as these are not part of my beastmaster spec.
I am willing to switch specc for zerging and then switch back to my beastmaster spec for roaming.

Anyone got some advice how a ranger can also get rewarded for zerging as other classes without dying too much (retailation)?

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Posted by: Bredin.5368

Bredin.5368

When I run piercing arrow I get double the loot bags compared to when that is not traited. I also use superior sigil of fire on my bow, which does an AOE flame damage on critical (30% or so chance). For some reason I do NOT think that the AOE from a sigil counts as tagging for WvW loot. Can anyone confirm/disconfirm this?

I could be mistaken, but I don’t get very many loot bags. To “optimally” contribute, the ranger should probably respec for zerging compared to roaming. I no longer do this, since my roaming spec performs well enough in zergs and WvW loot accumulates fast enough.

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Posted by: Sickyl.1056

Sickyl.1056

I have a guardian, ele, warrior, thief, and ranger at 80 and fully geared. It seems like I always am most successful at tagging with my ranger, just because of the speed at which I can switch targets and land an arrow with my shortbow on everything within 1200 range.

That being said, if you are playing just to race up in ranks and and not because you enjoy the same, you are going to be pretty disappointed with your extra 5 supply carry and 5% damage to guards after a few hundred hours of game play.

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Posted by: Robyn Yew.6072

Robyn Yew.6072

Getting rewarded for zerging on same level as other classes isnt going to happen, especially with the without dying to much part. To even try to equal them you will need traps and even traited you are to close to the front line. Your best bet is to go either 20/20/x/x/x or go 30/20/x/x/x or 30/30/x/x/x. Most important traits for tagging would probably be the increased longbow range 1500 and piercing arrows with reduced cd on bow skills along with traited traps for ground targeting.

Thing is Ranger isn’t really good zerg vs zerg I have played plenty WvW and what I can say is you HUNT down the zerg while it’s in retreat. You get so many kills and than you will need to walk back and pick up your trail of bags. Don’t stomp, let your teammates finish and you just keep hunting them down kill after kill. I’m working on a build right now with the recent qz nerf to something to this effect.

EDIT: If you are going to be at 1500 range build full berserkers or at least 80 percent.

}|{Rhbyn Yew}|{ Sylvari Ranger 80
born to Isle Of Janthir

(edited by Robyn Yew.6072)

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Posted by: Chopps.5047

Chopps.5047

This is an important discussion, I’m going to add it to jub’s thread.

Tin Foil Hat Hearer »—> Ranger Extraordinaire »—> “Be like water…”

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Posted by: Gorath.5076

Gorath.5076

I have played my share in zerg vs zerg situations and am experiencing the exact same thing my predecessors have said.
First, what makes Necros, Guardians and Warriors so ‘good’ at tagging Enemies is their very strong AoE capabilities. For the Necro its their Plague Elite, for Guardians its their GS #2 + symbols + Staff #1, for Warriors its their Whirling Axe on off-hand Axe #5. (just to give a non concluding list)
What these have in common is: They deal AoE Damage per second and the caster can move through the Zerg while channeling it.
So far I have failed to find anything comparable in the Ranger repertory. Sure we have traps, but those are stational and have a cast time.
Further we have Barrage on LB #5, which is stational, too.
We have Bonfire on Torch #5, stational as well.
We have Binding Roots: Great AoE! One of my favortite Ranger Utilities, but: stationary! and a comparably long cast time which makes it exceedingly unpracticabale in large fights, since I in any case tend to have enormous lag issues there.
That leaves only two things: Ricochet on Axe #1 and the Trait ‘Piercing Arrows’.
Ricochet in my eyes is what comes closest to that I have described above: It can be cast while moving, once cast, it kind of ‘ticks’ for damage and it is not stationary. But it’s a bouncing attack, that only bounces 3 times and as with the Mesmers bouncing attacks cannot be considered en par with the AoE Skills over Classes provide.
Leaves: Piercing arrows: A trait which makes all your Long- and Shortbow skills pierce their targets. What this means is: Every Attack by those weapons will not only hit the primary target but every other standing in a straight line behind it. ( I am not sure but there might be a small cone dmg as well)
Especially with the Short bow , in my opinion this is the only solid AoE we have got and as explained above you do get considerably more bags, while using it but not even close to what a Necro, Guardian or Warrior gets.
Hence, I think this question is non of ‘how many can I tag’, but rather:
What is the Role of a Ranger ikittenerg vs Zerg combat! And here is what I really am struggeling to give an answer to. I love my ranger but am playing in a Guild team for 20 vs X fights and am getting increasingly into trouble, explaining which role exactly I am trying to fulfill.

(Post already is long enough, so I didnt go into the Greatsword, my favorite ranger weapon. Only a short word so:
Eventhough its #1 and #2 skill hit 5 targets, they in my eyes are way to slow and deal way to little damage, to be considered ‘AoE-Attacks’)

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Posted by: naphack.9346

naphack.9346

axe/axe could do the trick.
Got bouncing stuff, some piercing double hit and can also reflect projectiles, which, believe it or not, can be invaluable.

The only crime, turrets committed, is being good against the celestial meta.
The mob has spoken and the turrets shall be burnt at the stake.

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Posted by: Durzlla.6295

Durzlla.6295

I tend to just charge into the fray with Chuckle and Cackle and get quite the loot horde, I’ve only played in WvW for ~ 3hrs and am rank 3 (idk if that’s bad or not), I tend to run LB +Sword/warhorn. Barrage is great for tagging people as well, but if you want to rage THE MOST people possible go into the heart of the Zerg with the rest of the melee, HAVE NO TARGET and swing a great sword around, each swing will hit 3 random targets in the cleave zone if you have no target, an then when things get bad just swoop out!

PS: Chuckle and Cackle are Hyenas, they like to run into the Zerg and tag things for me… Especially cackle… He’s crazy…

They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna

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Posted by: KensaiZen.3740

KensaiZen.3740

LB 1500 range and trait for piercing arrows, turn off auto target. All you have to do is blanket the area the zerg is in with arrows.

You dont need clear line of sight, you hit people who think they are out of range.

Winters Ascension The White Guardian
Sophia Theos Beast Master
[Fissure of Woe]

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Posted by: Chopps.5047

Chopps.5047

Yeah kensaizen makes a great point. Barrage isn’t obstructed either so if you see a green AoE circle and you can cast, then you know for a fact those arrows will land, no matter if there’s a roof or not.

Tin Foil Hat Hearer »—> Ranger Extraordinaire »—> “Be like water…”

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Posted by: Arpheus.6918

Arpheus.6918

From what I read it really seems to be an issue. Just a few hours ago I made a build 30/30/10/0/0 with piercing arrows, 1500 LB range, bow cooldown reductions and trap ground activation.
I wasn’t able to test alot but the first results were not as good as I wanted it to be. As you said we probably simply won’t have any way to get as many badges/WXP as other classes do.

What was weird to me: When I was running a tanky build with piercing arrows it seemed to me that with shortbow and greatsword 1 I was getting the best results.
But I was able to test it only in few situations.

The idea behind the build which I am testing now is throw traps, LB barrage them and then shoot with longbow 3/2/1. On the Longbow I use sigil of fire. I was hoping that the AoE would tag people which would probably be the best way to hit more ppl and it does good damage.

To the question if tagging is all that counts to me: No. 70% of the time I am roaming supply camps / dollys and other stuff. But when I am running around in zerg I want to contribute and get rewarded for it like others do.
And since I love my ranger playing another class is not an option. The survivability/mobilty of the ranger and the great possibilitiy to solo even upgraded 200 camps while being pretty good in 1v1 and sometimes even 1v2/3 is just too important to me.

For pets I tried the poison field devourer but pets die so fast in zergs …

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Posted by: KensaiZen.3740

KensaiZen.3740

Im not actually talking about barrage but it also works just the same thought at 1200 range.

You can manually line your shots with LB2 or just auto and will tag much more enemies then if you had a target selected. It also fires at 1500 so every enemy clumped together out of 1200 range is still an easy target.

Rangers need to learn to position themselves and also look at the battle field they are fighting in. Fire into bottle necks. Lob arrows into the side of zergs. Lob arrows into the front of zergs. You can herd people into fire zones if you do it right.

Its all about control. Its not about shooting st one guy and hopes the arrow hits more people. It is about making sure the arrow was intended to hit more people to begin with.

A team of rangers will melt zergs. Shame because of so much QQ from Ranger community Rangers are so few these days.

Winters Ascension The White Guardian
Sophia Theos Beast Master
[Fissure of Woe]

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Posted by: Gorath.5076

Gorath.5076

Maybe we will have to meet up on the borders one day and you have to show me. Cause what you say sounds romantic and awesome but is quite far from what I have experienced..
In my case it was more like: If I went in straight with my tanky build + gs and aoe pets:
I stood just as long or even longer as any first grade tank but didnt even come close to makeing as much damage/BAGS (!) as others.
In another scenario I used a shortbow/piercing arrows/damage build and found myself senselessly firering my autoattack into the crowd, feeling very useless and finding that if two or three skirmishers decided to turn around, I was eating mudd quite often …
I came to accept that my damage wasnt going to be exceptional and hence stuck to crowd control …
I am giving you a quite bitter image here
but I have to admit that I sometimes am quite frustrated with my beloved Ranger in our Guild Zergs …

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Posted by: KensaiZen.3740

KensaiZen.3740

Longbow as main with traits 10% with 100% endurance, Eagle eye 1500 range, Piercing arrows.

Great sword as secondary, Martial mastery traited for reduction to skills.

30/0/30/5/5 (tonnes of survival)

The key is positioning and placement. With a SB you have to go within 900-1200 to make it affective. This generally means you have to put yourself at the front of the zerg to get the maximum out of your piercing shots. When someone on the other side see’s a ranger on the front line. Its an automatic trigger into their heads to charge in and kill it. As you are also a GC Ranger, it takes no longer than 3 seconds to kill you.

Now here is where the longbow comes into play. Put into the same zerg vs zerg scenario, you can stand within 1300-1500 and still make piercing shots work. By staying beyond 1200 you are not in danger of any of the enemies attacks or CC skills. There are other players who will be standing infront of you to be the juicy target that the enemy will rush out to get first.

This is proper strategic placement. As the enemy keep moving left and right you will tag them all as they move into your arrows. You can even move the Camera to aim left and right and not having to fire in just one line. Since you are firing from relative safety, you can even pick your targets. Someone tried to make a charge forward and failed and hobbling back into their lines? you can down them even when they are in enemy lines.

Bags also drop where you are standing so having to pick them up whilst in the safety of your own zerg is viable.

If the battle moves and the zerg is broken, switch to GS and use GS3 to gtfo of danger. Very few classes will catch you. And with 1200 range head start to when you run… no class will.

Longbows have taken a very bad rep, but mainly it is due to people not knowing how to use it properly.

Combat effectiveness for all classes have a maximum range of 1200 bar Ranger and necro. But Rangers have the advantage in 1500 range.

That can be done by anyone. on a 1 man part of a zerg situation.

Now here is the romanticism.

Imagine a team of 5 Rangers all with LB firing in front of their zerg in a line/formation. The zerg moves slowly forward decimating anything that comes into the line of fire. The kill zone is 1200 in front of your zerg. Now if you want to visualise it, imagine a phalanx with spears 1500 range long.

To get into even max range of 1200 for all the other classes they have to wade into a line of arrows turning them into pin cushions. Cloths get torn to pieces. Mediums don’t last long either. Heavy’s just cant get into proper range to be of any use.

Now imagine a mesmer popping time warp onto this crew of archers. All archers time their LB2 and move forward at the same time. Zerg melted.

Shortbow is for skirmishes and effective within 900-1200 range. This puts you in very big danger from all classes. Don’t spec GC and use SB. I’ve played GC with much better success in WvW only whilst defending or sticking withikittenerg with a LB. When i tried using a SB as a GC… there is a very low..VERY low success rate.

Winters Ascension The White Guardian
Sophia Theos Beast Master
[Fissure of Woe]

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Posted by: Chopps.5047

Chopps.5047

KensaiZen, thanks for writing such an informative post. I wish I could upvote you twice.

Tin Foil Hat Hearer »—> Ranger Extraordinaire »—> “Be like water…”

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Posted by: somsom.5201

somsom.5201

Best advice is make sure you have piercing and dual-bow. Pop LB #5, #2 + quickening, swap to SB and just run through the zerg spamming #1+#2 whenever off CD. And that’s with a mostly GC setup. Before someone says “nah bro you’ll die”: I run with a largeish(40+ at least) group of WELL built/trained people(specific commanders for front/backlines, voice comms, banners, lightning, water fields, blasts, etc). I wouldn’t recommend it with pugs, but with a good group it can absolutely RIP kitten up.

If you’re after bags it’s just about the best way to do it. You might also consider throwing down some traps along the way just for some extra tagging dmg, especially on downed players.(traps are a must regardless IMO in WvW, they can decimate zergs if you have enough Rangers, and they are SUPER helpful in denying entrance to an enemy keep).

That said, it still won’t approach the bags you can attain by playing Guard or Necro. Guard staff = CRAZY bag returns(5 players hit per swing vs a Ranger who has to swap targets quick to maximize overall lootbags). I’ve had near 90%+ bag returns since the loot tagging patch(on my Guard vs ~40% on my Ranger). The other thing is that it doesn’t seem to require as much dmg while using staff: a couple hits(less than 2 seconds) means a definite 5 bags; the same can’t be said for my Ranger. As well, the Ranger playstyle naturally leans towards static positioning(and will actually help with faster bag collection at your feet); the downside is that unless you are using LB, you will be limiting the distance(and thus lootbags) you can reach. With Guard, you can just charge forward with the frontline while spamming auto, and then train back after you wipe them for your bags(which you will get more of due to your mobility).

KZ’s build above is another alternative and would likely work much better if you don’t play with a large/organized group(aka: pugs). It also looks more forgiving for a new player/someone wanting to try out another way of getting bags without a “skillcap”.

(edited by somsom.5201)

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Posted by: KensaiZen.3740

KensaiZen.3740

I have my set up this way as I also do a lot of roaming. I don’t stick to zergs much. But I can do when I have to.

GC Rangers only survive with protection from a group. If you look to be alive when moving from A to B survival is where its at. You don’t need to be “in the thick of it” to tag people, neither do you have to do massive amounts of damage.

Though tbh my build is irrelevant to how to use a longbow. the synergy for longbow is with marksmanship. You can put the rest of the points anywhere else and still do the same thing.

“That said, it still won’t approach the bags you can attain by playing Guard or Necro. Guard staff = CRAZY bag returns(5 players hit per swing vs a Ranger who has to swap targets quick to maximize overall lootbags).”

You also missed the key part about this play style. You don’t need a target. There is no switching of targets. You simply fire volley after volley in the area where the enemy is. As long as you are still alive and firing, the chances of lootbags % goes up as the damage counter keeps ticking. You can spread the arc of your arrows by turning with the camera which has no need for a target.

Running through a zerg as a ranger is suicide. Even with protect me and SoS traited you will still drop from the amount of conditions and CC you will get hit with.

A Ranger is not a guardian nor is it a Necro. That particular playstyle doesn’t work with this class.

Winters Ascension The White Guardian
Sophia Theos Beast Master
[Fissure of Woe]

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Posted by: Goatjugsoup.8637

Goatjugsoup.8637

piercing arrow and firing a skill like sb 2nd into the zerg. I previously would have said LB 5 but I have since found out there is a target limit of only 5

Most wanted in game additions: Beastiary, readable books

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Posted by: Gorath.5076

Gorath.5076

Looks like you guys are reexplaining my class to me oO.

From what I have heard from KensaiZen and somsom I will have to try a longbow, eventhough I have to admit I do share the common prejudices against it (=no skill noob weapon).

Dont get me wrong this is not about tagging targets for me but about finding a useful role in an organized Zerg, the way somsom descibes it. But maybe this is the wrong place and I should start a new thread on the topic.

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Posted by: Xsorus.2507

Xsorus.2507

This is something we’re not strong at compared to other classes..

My thief probably has the easiest, I can lay down 3 separate poison combo fields….

If Axe was 1200 Range, or Traps were greater range, those would probably be used more..

Bow with Pierce Arrow is to unreliable cause half the time you’ll be hitting a blob of Mesmer pets ikittenerg anyway

http://www.youtube.com/user/Xsorus/videos?view=0
Natures Ninja and Pain Inverter – Ranger PvP movies
http://www.twitch.tv/xsorovos

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Posted by: KensaiZen.3740

KensaiZen.3740

if you use auto target

Winters Ascension The White Guardian
Sophia Theos Beast Master
[Fissure of Woe]

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Posted by: Arekai.5698

Arekai.5698

The answer is like any other answer related to ranger.

Play another class.
Fixes every ranger bug and problem.

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Posted by: Canguro.5768

Canguro.5768

If you just want to tag enemies for bags what I can suggest is LB, piercing arrow, sigil of fire, LB 5 to begin, LB 2 to the back of the zerg and then swap to a GS or Sw+Torch, of course soldier armor and bunker stats, also auto target must be set off, pet starts pasive and change to active when you jump inside the zerg.

If you want to become useful for your group in WvW play some sort of crowd control, this is what I believe where rangers excel (LB 5, moody terrain, entrangle and/or spike trap to give an example), also the +70 precision trait to self/allies is a must in WvW

Maguuma

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Posted by: solrik.6028

solrik.6028

Everybody here talks about zerg fights as if they were

ENEMYENEMYENEMY
NO MANS LAND
TEAMTEAMTEAM

while they actually are

ETAMNSNDAJSIL
DNEANTMEAYMYELAND
ENYMDLOANDTEADNA