Guild Wars 2

Idea has probably been brought up since the AMA…if so here is more attention to it. How about moving Wilderness Knowledge to Nature Magic in place of Invigorating Bond? Leave everything the same, but name it back to Survival of the Fittest (as that name really deserves to stay).

This would allow an aspiring Ranger to take poison master or EB like now. With the way it is currently, I feel WK is too strong of a GM over the other possibilities, and the NM GM’s are too weak.

I actually really like having Wilderness Knowledge in Wilderness Survival trait line for a power build, but it does mean that if you go condi ranger you probably will never take Poison Master. The solution would be to indeed put Wilderness Knowledge in Nature Magic. I don’t know why they added two condi clear traits in the same trait line with active one being so much superior than the passive one.

Having Wilderness Knowledge in Nature Magic would also make Protective Ward not worth taking, as the condi clear and survival cd reduction from the trait will just be too good in my opinion unless you face a team with zero conditions which will be rare.

Combine EB with IB and put into NM. Wilderness Knowledge kinda belongs in Wilderness Survival, imo.

The argument between EB and WK (SotF) is getting really long and drawn out, so here’s the thing: in every single build that isn’t a condi-survival build that runs EB alongside SoTF, you have to choose between one or the other anyhow.

In the new core specialization system, EB will still be chosen on either traps or spirit builds, aka, builds that are utility dependent, just as it is now.

So really, there is actually nothing wrong with the way that they designed Wilderness Survival in the AMA preview as far as EB and SotF are concerned.

BUT, nobody will ever run poison master again, and that’s a problem. Unless ranger traps/spirits get somehow better at condition removal or staff/druid bring something new to the table, ANet has effectively removed Poison Master from even being a worthy-to-select option, and it was already borderline in its current state.

We really need to stop acting like the balance/design devs that put together what was shown don’t know that the changes to the trait locations target both a specific build while also pushing different build options into having to pick one cleansing trait or the other. In fact, I think it seems pretty obvious that them doing so was intentional.

Hi @jcbroe.4329, I dont think putting EB in WS as a GM trait is a good desighn.
There are lots of posible fixes for what you described like doing what @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 saied or making EB a master trait(after changes it realy looks like a master trait in power). Also dont forget traps will get HS synergie and spirits will have evasive purity( the GM trait for spirits realy doesnt look like a must, we’ll have to see) and spirit of nature as condi removals.
I actually think protective ward should be a GM trait in WS and NM as the “boons” trait line should have a GM trait that have somthing to do with either resistence or signets CD refreshments.

I would also like to see resistance in the NM line, I suggested something along the lines of Natural Stride once before, something like;

Natural Stride
Whenever you gain swiftness, you also gain Xs of Resistance. Xs CD.
Whenever you gain a condition, you gain Xs of swiftness.
Conditions have -X% duration.

It would have good synergy with Resounding Timbre and shout builds and skirmishing for weapon swaps, Beastmaster’s bond/pet swaps and Warhorn. And because its in NM, your pet gets both swiftness and resistance. Also It doesn’t actually remove the conditions, but it helps negate some damage and keeps you moving.

Poison Master in WS line has very much killed it. You will only be able to use it now if you take HS/SoR/Cleansing sigils/Brown Bear etc. That is pretty sad as it is a good trait and I like using it, it would be especially good with the extra on-swap pet traits we are getting. We could have had 4 Might, Fury, Swiftness, Quickness and the poison attack on swap. With canines, that would be unreal! Well, it still is, its just a lot harder to trait for when you have to choose no cleanse trait.

LughLongArm.5460:

Hi @jcbroe.4329, I dont think putting EB in WS as a GM trait is a good desighn.
There are lots of posible fixes for what you described like doing what @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 saied or making EB a master trait(after changes it realy looks like a master trait in power). Also dont forget traps will get HS synergie and spirits will have evasive purity( the GM trait for spirits realy doesnt look like a must, we’ll have to see) and spirit of nature as condi removals.
I actually think protective ward should be a GM trait in WS and NM as the “boons” trait line should have a GM trait that have somthing to do with either resistence or signets CD refreshments.

And what I’m saying is that if anybody thinks ANet doesn’t know that the change they made hurts builds running both EB and SotF and thinks ANet is thinking of making these changes and affecting the traits unintentionally, they are mistaken.

I absolutely believe that regardless of what ANet decides to do elsewhere, that they fully intend to remain with the decision to make running both EB and SotF impossible.

I mean your pet magically curing you of conditions is pretty supernatural so it should probably be in Nature Magic, where as Wilderness Knowledge, Survival of the Fittest should be in you know. Wilderness Survival.

Just saying. They got them all backwards theme wise anyway.

@jcbroe.4329 I think you value 2 much the concept of running both SOTF and EB, eeven today when i run xx-6-6x builds most of the time I take BS with SOTF. After patch you get another source of condi removal(TU) and free “keen edge”, with such high condi removal on demand, EB will trigger meny times for like 1 condi. If a survival build willing to invest in NM line and take EB as a GM trait he;s passin out on tons of good stuff. I also dont mind making EB somthing different with resistance on NM trait line. Resistance and condi removal have overlaping effect(resistance is much more value with (condi(-) duration). They can find methods to make a condi defence trait that synergise very badly with SotF and unrilated to a spesific utilitiy skill set.

I don’t think you understand that I’m not justifying it, I’m explaining it.

What other reason would there be to take 2 traits that currently don’t compete for a slot with each other and make them compete with a slot with each other? That’s clearly a design decision to make it so that both traits can’t be taken together.

At that point, it really doesn’t matter if we discuss it into the ground. It’s pretty clear that taking 2 traits that have never competed before and making them compete is done entirely on purpose.

From a lore standpoint, it’s a trait for Survival skills and as such seems to belong in the Wilderness Survival specializations.

They talked about moving traits to that each had particular purpose(s) / theme(s) you can select from. It looks like:

• Marksmanship = Signets
• Skirmishing = Traps
• Wilderness Survival = Survival
• Nature Magic = Spirits
• Beastmastery = Shouts
• Druid = whatever new skill type we’re getting.

As such, Wildnerness Knowledge being in Wilderness Survival makes sense.

im against the move, but I think NM needs a strong alternative GM. combining EB and IB to create a competitive NM GM is probably my favourite idea. EB could be nerfed to 2 condis/10s in this case.

In my opinion, Emphathic Bond isn’t good enough to need to be nerfed. It already suffers from a long cooldown that you have no control over and can’t even see.

No, keep Wilderness Knowledge in Wilderness Survival. It makes sense and it should stay where it is. I would rather they beef up EB instead, something along the lines of Necromantic Corruption for Necromancers (see below).

Having pets just take conditions away from us is a passive and bad trait to begin with, if it had the additional function of transferring those taken conditions onto enemies, then it will be worth while when compared to WK and a significant improvement on a whole.

No, no, no, no, no, no ,no.

The line is called wildnerness survival, there’s no reason for it to be Nature Magic…

Yeah, I’m more concerned about poison master than empathetic bond. I personally think the design decision to make WK and EB share is based around TU being promoted to survival skill. They probably thought having every skill on your bar clear condis plus EB was too much.

Poison master is in a really bad spot. Thematically it can’t really be moved, as its pretty much 100% survival themed.

So if we are going with the line of reasoning that anet did all this intentionally, then I really wonder what the plan for poison master is. Not to mention, is it really even GM strong? Why not just make it a master in BM? I mean, the pet is doing all of the application anyway, and anet isn’t opposed to throwing theme out the window…so…

Gotejjeken.1267:

Yeah, I’m more concerned about poison master than empathetic bond. I personally think the design decision to make WK and EB share is based around TU being promoted to survival skill. They probably thought having every skill on your bar clear condis plus EB was too much.

Poison master is in a really bad spot. Thematically it can’t really be moved, as its pretty much 100% survival themed.

So if we are going with the line of reasoning that anet did all this intentionally, then I really wonder what the plan for poison master is. Not to mention, is it really even GM strong? Why not just make it a master in BM? I mean, the pet is doing all of the application anyway, and anet isn’t opposed to throwing theme out the window…so…

I already made a perfect redesign of Wildnerness survival.

Moving Poison master to master spot, moving shared anguish back to adapt trait and merge with falling damage trait. Lastly, add a new Grandmaster trait that function differently from two condition cleanse, yet comparable.

Here’s the link:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Proposed-Wilderness-Survival-Traits-change/first#post5024060

Whethere you support or reject it, please give feedback.

Gotejjeken.1267:

Poison master is in a really bad spot. Thematically it can’t really be moved, as its pretty much 100% survival themed.

So if we are going with the line of reasoning that anet did all this intentionally, then I really wonder what the plan for poison master is. Not to mention, is it really even GM strong? Why not just make it a master in BM? I mean, the pet is doing all of the application anyway, and anet isn’t opposed to throwing theme out the window…so…

Think the best thing to hope for Poison Master is to have it merged with Ambidexterity and have Anet make up another GM trait. PM would fit perfectly with that trait imo.

So, I’ve been told by multiple people that poison master not only buffs our poison damage but also increases the heal debuff, if this is true than Poison Master will absolutely give the other two traits a run for their money, even on power builds.

Also, don’t ruin IB with that horrible trait EB, if anything merge EB and Shared Anguish, that way EB has very obvious pros and cons to taking it over WK

jcbroe.4329:

LughLongArm.5460:

Hi @jcbroe.4329, I dont think putting EB in WS as a GM trait is a good desighn.
There are lots of posible fixes for what you described like doing what @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 saied or making EB a master trait(after changes it realy looks like a master trait in power). Also dont forget traps will get HS synergie and spirits will have evasive purity( the GM trait for spirits realy doesnt look like a must, we’ll have to see) and spirit of nature as condi removals.
I actually think protective ward should be a GM trait in WS and NM as the “boons” trait line should have a GM trait that have somthing to do with either resistence or signets CD refreshments.

And what I’m saying is that if anybody thinks ANet doesn’t know that the change they made hurts builds running both EB and SotF and thinks ANet is thinking of making these changes and affecting the traits unintentionally, they are mistaken.

I absolutely believe that regardless of what ANet decides to do elsewhere, that they fully intend to remain with the decision to make running both EB and SotF impossible.

That’s why it’s a stupid nerf. And you contradict yoursefl since you said that most ranger already choose between EB and SOTF, it means that rangers doesn’t usually run with both even if it’s possible. But now they ruined Poison Master and made EB (now with the heal and elitsurvivals) a worst GM trait. There is no class that have ONLY two GM traits in the same slot to deal with conditions , period.

I hope we will have access to cleans with the new utilities, otherwise it’s pretty dumb.

Like I said I really do like having Wilderness Knowledge in Wilderness Survival trait, but doing so makes the other two Grandmaster traits look like simple master traits.

Empathic Bond is just a passive condi clear each 10s while you can have on-demand condi clear with Wilderness Knowledge + CD reductions on survival skills + a free sharpening skill trait when target gets low. Clearly superior to Empathic Bond especially with Troll Unguent being a survival skill now.

I don’t complain, I’m going to be able to have one of the best condi clears in the game, but it is going to make some once good traits inferior which will be sad.

@borya.2964 I don’t contradict myself, you just need to read the context of privious posts. jcbroe.4329 clamied its by desighn that A.net does not want us to go both SOTF and EB cus its imba condi removal and I told him that even now I find myself not taking both by choise, after patch new SOTF is even stronger so i think investing in both EB and SOTF after patch is over condi defence and doesnt worth the invesment. Also i claimed EB get worse with every additional condi cleanse due to the fact the chances that it will clear only 0-2 condis goes way up. I sugested ways to make SOTF and EB even worse combo. I by all means think EB and SOTF shouldnt compete as i dont think they should be on the same trait line. They need to split so they can open up build diversity.

borya.2964:

jcbroe.4329:

LughLongArm.5460:

Hi @jcbroe.4329, I dont think putting EB in WS as a GM trait is a good desighn.
There are lots of posible fixes for what you described like doing what @Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 saied or making EB a master trait(after changes it realy looks like a master trait in power). Also dont forget traps will get HS synergie and spirits will have evasive purity( the GM trait for spirits realy doesnt look like a must, we’ll have to see) and spirit of nature as condi removals.
I actually think protective ward should be a GM trait in WS and NM as the “boons” trait line should have a GM trait that have somthing to do with either resistence or signets CD refreshments.

And what I’m saying is that if anybody thinks ANet doesn’t know that the change they made hurts builds running both EB and SotF and thinks ANet is thinking of making these changes and affecting the traits unintentionally, they are mistaken.

I absolutely believe that regardless of what ANet decides to do elsewhere, that they fully intend to remain with the decision to make running both EB and SotF impossible.

That’s why it’s a stupid nerf. And you contradict yoursefl since you said that most ranger already choose between EB and SOTF, it means that rangers doesn’t usually run with both even if it’s possible. But now they ruined Poison Master and made EB (now with the heal and elitsurvivals) a worst GM trait. There is no class that have ONLY two GM traits in the same slot to deal with conditions , period.

I hope we will have access to cleans with the new utilities, otherwise it’s pretty dumb.

You do factually already choose between EB and SotF on most builds.

Your typical spirit build or trap build will not be running SotF. After the core specialization update, unless there is some crazy powerful change to Spirits or Traps that allows utility bar compression so that the majority of skills can benefit from taking the new Wilderness Knowledge, players running traps or spirits still won’t take it.

Not to mention that Signet based builds and Shout builds aren’t already running both either.

But, now that I’m clarifying unnecessarily for the second time, ANet seems to think that you should be forced to choose to have one or the other. I never once even offered my personal opinion, because again, why?

ANet took 2 non-competing traits and made them compete against each other, why is it even a discussion to be had with the ranger community when it’s clearly an intentional design decision to make these 2 traits have to compete with each other in the future.

If any discussion is to be had, it isn’t the current one, it’s the balance discussion of “what makes the combination of EB and SotF worth changing so that the traits are in direct competition of each other?”

jcbroe.4329:

If any discussion is to be had, it isn’t the current one, it’s the balance discussion of “what makes the combination of EB and SotF worth changing so that the traits are in direct competition of each other?”

I think it would be cool to change Empathic Bond completely. Since survival skills get all the condi removal in the world, why not shouts? Maybe make the trait so that shouts can remove conditions for yourself and your allies or something like that. This would make shouts way more appealing in my opinion. I would actually be excited for Heal As One being a shout with it. At that point you’d probably want to put the trait in the Beastmastery trait line with other shouts traits.

Just a thought since if you will run traps or anything you can still run Wilderness Knowledge and have better on demand condi removal thanks to Entangle, Lightning Reflexes (maybe you’d want SoR instead) and Troll Unguent equiped with your two traps.

Personally I have always hated Empathic Bond since it hurts your pet and there are good chances the condi removal will proc when you only have one or two condis on you, making your GM trait less useful than it should be.

Maybe a change of the trait’s name would be due because Empathic Bond may not really relate to shouts.

LughLongArm.5460:

@borya.2964 I don’t contradict myself, you just need to read the context of privious posts. jcbroe.4329 clamied its by desighn that A.net does not want us to go both SOTF and EB cus its imba condi removal and I told him that even now I find myself not taking both by choise, after patch new SOTF is even stronger so i think investing in both EB and SOTF after patch is over condi defence and doesnt worth the invesment. Also i claimed EB get worse with every additional condi cleanse due to the fact the chances that it will clear only 0-2 condis goes way up. I sugested ways to make SOTF and EB even worse combo. I by all means think EB and SOTF shouldnt compete as i dont think they should be on the same trait line. They need to split so they can open up build diversity.

I totally agree. I talked about what jcbroe said, but i probably misunderstood his point. I read fast and i am not mastering english that much, pretty bad combo . ..

Skullface.7293:

jcbroe.4329:

If any discussion is to be had, it isn’t the current one, it’s the balance discussion of “what makes the combination of EB and SotF worth changing so that the traits are in direct competition of each other?”

I think it would be cool to change Empathic Bond completely. Since survival skills get all the condi removal in the world, why not shouts? Maybe make the trait so that shouts can remove conditions for yourself and your allies or something like that. This would make shouts way more appealing in my opinion. I would actually be excited for Heal As One being a shout with it. At that point you’d probably want to put the trait in the Beastmastery trait line with other shouts traits.

Just a thought since if you will run traps or anything you can still run Wilderness Knowledge and have better on demand condi removal thanks to Entangle, Lightning Reflexes (maybe you’d want SoR instead) and Troll Unguent equiped with your two traps.

Personally I have always hated Empathic Bond since it hurts your pet and there are good chances the condi removal will proc when you only have one or two condis on you, making your GM trait less useful than it should be.

Maybe a change of the trait’s name would be due because Empathic Bond may not really relate to shouts.

Yeah, I honestly really expected Empathic Bond to get moved to the Beastmaster line and make it less punishing. Like, if the pet were to gain regen/resistance when it pulled conditions to it so that it wouldn’t be so punishing to the pet.

I’ve also personally advocated for as long as I can remember posting about balance changes on the forum for Empathic Bond to, at the very least, trigger only on pet swap (current pet pulls conditions to it right before swapping to the next pet, effectively making it a cleanse).

It also really sucks that shouts are what they are and we have to take trooper runes to make them more useful than perma-regen and swiftness (which incidentally we will be able to do without shouts now with a warhorn and the adept Marksmanship Trait and Nature Magic).

Out of all of the (limited) information we know about traps and spirits getting reworks/revamps, it really surprises me that shouts weren’t on that list as well.

I feel like they were trying to make certain that you couldn’t take BOTH heavy condi clear methods. (lets face it. Having those two together in a condi build was kittening BRUTAL.)

Durzlla.6295:

So, I’ve been told by multiple people that poison master not only buffs our poison damage but also increases the heal debuff, if this is true than Poison Master will absolutely give the other two traits a run for their money, even on power builds.

Also, don’t ruin IB with that horrible trait EB, if anything merge EB and Shared Anguish, that way EB has very obvious pros and cons to taking it over WK

they said during the stream that healing debuff will not stack, only intensity (damage). however, if you are correct, that would be great for us.

and yes to the above discussion, EB needs to be moved, and IB needs more work.