every time I swap to my greatsword. That I kill things in pve much faster with my masterwork knight’s greatsword than I do with my exotic berserker’s longbow just…well, it doesn’t seem right. It seems like somewhere along the line during development something conceptual didn’t survive the translation to practice and everyone in the room either missed it or was too stubborn to admit it.
Yeah, why wouldn’t you use a Greatsword on a ranger for that? Sure you can use sword/warhorn and kill things more quickly, but it is a very high skill set that I don’t see as having a point in open world PvE.
Anyway, Longbow is better for group settings where you can sit comfortably at 1000 range. While you CAN do that in the open world, it’s very unwise. Mostly because that is probably in the aggro radius of another mob you can’t see patrolling or respawning.
I would recommend short-bow for this situation if you want to go bow. It’s much better at closer ranges than longer ones.
Magichemist Zeke – Asura Elementalist [TC]
An Insane(ly Intelligent) Genius!
“Did you just tell me the rules? Never tell me the rules!”
It is known that melee does greater damage in general than range acroos all classes.
I use Greatsword for just about everything.
Yeah it does more than the bow but guess what…
Every other class does A LOT MORE DAMAGE WITH IT THAN US.
The only good thing about ours is the #3 & #4 skill and most ppl can’t even use those two right most of the time b/c they have a higher skill index when it comes to blocking CC or even just clearing gaps for the lulz.
I tend to switch my longbow with my GS alot. I like having a LB equiped because I’m a ranger and it makes me feel like a ranger but it is also useless in anything but WvWvW(barrage). I didn’t mind it before the patch because I still had Short bow to fall back on. Now I find myself a little lost.
“I may not be a horse whisperer, but I certainly
can and do speak to unicorns.” (Arrow The
Unicorn)
Even with the changes, the longbow is useless compared to the greatsword. It’s like night and day in comparison . . . sadly. Even with the shortbow changes, it’s obvious shortbow is also the better choice against longbow overall.
And that’s in PvE. Let’s not even go there with PvP.
@Ardenwolfe and then big kitten boss with “one-hit-melee-kill” comes and here ends your greatsword usefullness.
and it comes his “one-hit-kill” have range 900 in the circle around him
and here possibility of using post-patch-sb ends
so in this case You should be gald You have range 1200 weapon (1500 if traited)
at WvW post-patch-shortbow usefullnes ends on small group roaming – with 900 range You are useless when it comes to defend tower/keep
“-Shield is meant to be broken!”
“-and on this occasion I keep mine plate armors”
discussion about offensive/deffensive playstyles
Makes perfect sense. Warrior Greatsword is stronger than Rifle.
Melee > Ranged.
Though to be fair, most Ranger weapons are lacking. The only decent ones are Greatsword and the off-hands (which by extension of the bad Main-hand weapons don’t make them decent at all…)
It is known that melee does greater damage in general than range acroos all classes.
I use Greatsword for just about everything.
Yeah it does more than the bow but guess what…
Every other class does A LOT MORE DAMAGE WITH IT THAN US.
The only good thing about ours is the #3 & #4 skill and most ppl can’t even use those two right most of the time b/c they have a higher skill index when it comes to blocking CC or even just clearing gaps for the lulz.
That’s because pets account for 40% of our damage. The real problem is that rangers don’t scale well damage wise with gear. I suspect that the next balance patch will adress this.
In order to properly understand the big picture,
everyone should fear becoming mentally clouded and obsessed with one small section of truth.
The problem isn’t ranger (ok, it is problem too lol), but whole stupid design of melee dmg > ranged dmg. I know there is no split between melee and ranged classes like in most games, and the system rewards changing between two, but it’s still stupid I cant go full ranged without losing dmg.
Still, using LB/GS and it works. LB makes up for lower dmg with 100% uptime on moving target, while melee weapons (GS in my case) lose some against kiting enemies.
It would be wrong in design terms if we always did more damage with the bows than the melee weapons. We would then never use the melee weapons. They might as well be taken out of the class. Would anyone prefer that or do you just want swords to brandish for screenshots?
The correct design decision for game play is for melee weapons to do more damage than ranged weapons. It’s right. Players still use melee and ranged.
It is known that melee does greater damage in general than range acroos all classes.
I’m well aware of this fact. I even understand the principle behind that design philosophy, even if I don’t totally agree with it. But the problem is in the find details. Even if we fully embrace the idea that melee attacks do greater damage than ranged attacks, the disparity is too big.
There’s no justification for a masterwork knight’s greatsword with no traits and no sigil doing significantly more damage than an exotic berserker’s longbow with full traits and a sigil. None.
It is known that melee does greater damage in general than range acroos all classes.
I’m well aware of this fact. I even understand the principle behind that design philosophy, even if I don’t totally agree with it.
Let me clarify this statement a bit. I agree with the concept given the design philosophy Anet has chosen, were any profession can do just about anything as well as any other profession. But I don’t think they should have homogenized the professions quite as much as they did, in my opinion. That’s off-topic, but I did want to clarify what I meant by that remark.
I don’t get where people are saying this complete and total BS. A masterwork GS does not do more damage than an exotic LB. If you use Chopp’s build with a LB/GS their damage is VERY close.
Damage (on crits) for the autoattacks on a Longbow is consistently over 3k. Just for a frame of reference, I don’t even have full exotic trinkets yet (still working on it). For the GS chain, the hits are 1.5k-1.7k. Factoring in the time, LB AA is 3k DPS and GS is 3k-3.4k DPS (chain is right about 1.5 seconds).
Looking at the other abilities with my build, the 2 on the Longbow (if I properly set it up) can easily spike up past 10k. I haven’t seen it get to 12k yet, but I’m not fully geared. I don’t really pay attention to the 3 since I use it for debuffing bosses and buffing my pet with swiftness. Using the GS in a fight, you’ll mainly focus on 1 and 2 for damage. 2 I’ve seen crit up to…maybe 4k.
I HIGHLY doubt that a Masterwork even a rare GS can beat a LB. Using a build based around a LB, their damage ratio with exotics is very close with the GS pulling MAYBE slightly ahead. But anything less than exotic wouldn’t stand up. They just don’t have enough weapon strength to even compete.
Magichemist Zeke – Asura Elementalist [TC]
An Insane(ly Intelligent) Genius!
“Did you just tell me the rules? Never tell me the rules!”
Melee is stronger than ranged for all professions because of risk vs. reward. The thing is that in prolonged or difficult fights you won’t have as much uptime with your greatsword as you will with your longbow, meaning the latter will be stronger. Plus, Ranger Longbow is now substantially better than before and probably out damages most if not all other long-range weapons in the game.
It would be wrong in design terms if we always did more damage with the bows than the melee weapons. We would then never use the melee weapons. They might as well be taken out of the class. Would anyone prefer that or do you just want swords to brandish for screenshots?
The correct design decision for game play is for melee weapons to do more damage than ranged weapons. It’s right. Players still use melee and ranged.
This is correct. People always fail to consider uptime. Melee weapons will always be supererior in very quick/fights, and even it doesn’t matter since they’re quick and easy (and you can start from a distance), but in more difficult or prolonged fights ranged weapons start looking like a good option.
This is really the way it should be, to be honest. Honestly, who would try using a bow in a short range skirmish anyway?
Maybe rangers should have heavy armour then if they are meant to melee.
I don’t mean to sound crass, but this is dumb. All classes can melee to some extent, including Elementalists. Rangers, like Thieves, don’t have heavy armor because their skillset focuses more on evasion and trickery. In place of stealth, they have pets and better health. In place of heavy armor, they have good mobility and lots of evasion and range versatility.
I know this was put as a joke, and many will take it as a joke.. but consider this…
To make LB more viable, SB was nerfed. Dont like how LB and GS compare? How do you think they are going to handle that?
hides his ranger in a cave
Not exactly, to make LB more viable, it was buffed and given a more distinctive role. SB took a range hit to allow for this but also received some damage buffs.
A nuisance for people who really liked sniping with the Shortbow perhaps, but that was never whakittens intention was and this is really how it should have been from the beginning.
If you really want to be the game’s best archer- you are, you are the only class that can slot 2 different bows with different skills and swap between them based on tactical need.
Not exactly, to make LB more viable, it was buffed and given a more distinctive role. SB took a range hit to allow for this but also received some damage buffs.
Yeah, youre right.
I am loving the increased damage and control capability on the LB, and the damage buffs on the SB are absolutely game-changing.
Not exactly, to make LB more viable, it was buffed and given a more distinctive role. SB took a range hit to allow for this but also received some damage buffs.
Yeah, youre right.
I am loving the increased damage and control capability on the LB, and the damage buffs on the SB are absolutely game-changing.
:D
Was this sarcasm? You realize the reduction to the aftercast and increase in arrow flight speed alone means Longbow is doing about 25% more DPS than it was before.
Also, the Shortbow #1 skill was somewhat overbuffed way back around launch so it operates perfectly as a 900 range skill and the other shortbow skills were buffed pretty substantially to compensate for their reduced range.
It’s pretty much working the way it was always intended to, and I’m honestly glad for the change.
Was this sarcasm? You realize the reduction to the aftercast and increase in arrow flight speed alone means Longbow is doing about 25% more DPS than it was before.
Also, the Shortbow #1 skill was somewhat overbuffed way back around launch so it operates perfectly as a 900 range skill and the other shortbow skills were buffed pretty substantially to compensate for their reduced range.
It’s pretty much working the way it was always intended to, and I’m honestly glad for the change.
I have no idea what sarcasm is, but thank you for educating me on your opinion of the changes.
Was this sarcasm? You realize the reduction to the aftercast and increase in arrow flight speed alone means Longbow is doing about 25% more DPS than it was before.
Also, the Shortbow #1 skill was somewhat overbuffed way back around launch so it operates perfectly as a 900 range skill and the other shortbow skills were buffed pretty substantially to compensate for their reduced range.
It’s pretty much working the way it was always intended to, and I’m honestly glad for the change.
I have no idea what sarcasm is, but thank you for educating me on your opinion of the changes.
Nah, I was educating you on the facts of the changes. Then I gave my opinion about it.
Nah, I was educating you on the facts of the changes. Then I gave my opinion about it.
Oh, ok. Thank you so very much!
Its awesome you take all this so very seriously. You have me in a state of awe of your omniscience.
edit: To be clear, I dont think the changes (overall) are as bad as many have made them out to be. I am using the LB more than ever, but have discarded the SB entirely in favor of the axe. You are still so awesome though, dont let anyone tell you otherwise.
You realize the reduction to the aftercast and increase in arrow flight speed alone means Longbow is doing about 25% more DPS than it was before.
Which is immediately offset by the 50% damage reduction given to my pet.
Yeah, I really don’t know what their aim is with pets. I strongly feel like they just made some mistakes in the design of the pet system which is causing most of the problems with the Ranger class. Instead of making the ranger weak and giving so much damage to the pet, ranger weapon skills should roughly the same DPS as every other profession’s weapon skills, and the pet should be mostly utilitarian (with a permanent stow option), with the Beastmastery tree skewing damage more to the pet. That’s what they need to fix across the board.
Good, I’m glad. It’s about time people started recognizing my omniscience!
Yes, I am sure it feels good to be vindicated. Just make sure you arent 1000 units away, or you are boned!
On a slightly serious note, I think Anets overall goal was a good one. However, the method used to achieve that goal seems pretty skewed. They say they dont want power creep, but seem to effectively be choosing the polar extreme.
I still feel like they have a balance team for each class, but that they dont communicate with what the other teams are doing. Internally, the changes to the bows seem to work for their intended goal of balancing the choice between LB and SB. However, it now runs into SB vs Axe, and I think that is an easy choice. Perhaps they will now nerf Axe to make SB more “viable,” but will increase the damage by 3% to substantially solidify its role.
Yeah, I really don’t know what their aim is with pets. I strongly feel like they just made some mistakes in the design of the pet system which is causing most of the problems with the Ranger class. Instead of making the ranger weak and giving so much damage to the pet, ranger weapon skills should roughly the same DPS as every other profession’s weapon skills, and the pet should be mostly utilitarian. That’s what they need to fix across the board.
That is what almost every ranger on the forums here have been saying for quite a while. Hopefully they will listen at some point!
Adjust the proportion of damage between the ranger and their pet. Currently, it just doesnt seem to be working. WAI? Yes, it absolutely is working as intended. Its just that that “intended” is not really working. Dig?
simple changes to the longbow to make it fun and effective are:
1. make the #5 instant cast(or close to it 3/4s) and lower its dmg(~40-50%) and maybe the CD(to ~25s).
2. lower the CD of the #4(~10s)
3. switch the CD of #2 and #3 and make the #3 just like the #1(more dmg at longer range) with a 30% decrease in dmg to compensate for the buffs/debuffs it provides.
Just to clarify the #3 change it will have very close to your #1 dmg (-30%) and scale with range like the #1.
Greatsword should kill faster then a longbow. As being in melee is riskier.
If Longbow killed just as fast/faster. It would be much better to use it since you stay safe at range.
Ranged weapons advantages over melee weapons are, 1: The ability to kite foes. 2. If not able to kite, soften them up a bit before you slaughter with your melee weapon. and 3. Some boss fights you need to be at range.
If melee > ranged, why does the LB decrease in damage the closer I get to a target? :C
Because it’s a Longbow. Tell me – would you engage in a melee skirmish using a Longbow? No, because it would be ridiculous and awkward. The increased damage over great range is an abstraction meant to represent that.
I’ve never taken an arrow hit (thank God), but i’m pretty sure it’d hurt the same (if not more) at closer range than at a distance.
As I said, it’s an abstraction. It’s not that the arrow wouldn’t hurt as bad as close range, it’s that trying to use a longbow at close range in the middle of a fight would be extremely clumsy, slow, and inaccurate. That’s why they have the damage set up the way they do.
I’ve never taken an arrow hit (thank God), but i’m pretty sure it’d hurt the same (if not more) at closer range than at a distance.
As I said, it’s an abstraction. It’s not that the arrow wouldn’t hurt as bad as close range, it’s that trying to use a longbow at close range in the middle of a fight would be extremely clumsy, slow, and inaccurate. That’s why they have the damage set up the way they do.
The longbow is already slow and its defensive utility is not that great, that should be penalty enough for close range play. On top of that, the damage penalty to auto atack for close range shots is just too much and it hurts us too much in any game mode (wvw, pve and spvp).
@Aioros lets look at this from another side – the game isn’t punishing You for using longbow in short range – it’s rewarding You by using it at long range
“-Shield is meant to be broken!”
“-and on this occasion I keep mine plate armors”
discussion about offensive/deffensive playstyles
Not really, considering that the damage is not even comparable to the damage of the other classes when we’re at max range in pve.
No, the idea is that the median damage is at mid range and that you get a damage penalty at short range and a damage bonus at long range. I don’t know exactly how it compares to other classes, but it’s on the high end as range weapons go, and again, it’s weaker than it would be otherwise because of the pet, which is what they need to change.
The problem isn’t ranger (ok, it is problem too lol), but whole stupid design of melee dmg > ranged dmg. I know there is no split between melee and ranged classes like in most games, and the system rewards changing between two, but it’s still stupid I cant go full ranged without losing dmg.
It’s a simple fact of life and you’re just going to have to accept it. There’s strong math behind it and if you’ve never actually tried PLAYING melee ranger or any other melee focused build then you need to try it first to understand why. And it’s not just because “you’re in more danger in melee”. Try just “tagging” every mob around you in a busy event sometime as melee… It’s a lot harder than it sounds. Usually by the time you get there it’s already 3/4’s dead, if you’re lucky. The amount of DPS you can actually put out as a Melee is very very limited by how quickly you an get in close range with that target so you can easily lose a lot more than 50% of your suppose’ed potential DPS
It’s the entire reason my Warrior in GW1 (which is now my Ranger here) always dual-spec’d Recurve bow along with her Hammer spec. Yes it made my minmax stats slightly weaker over all but who cares when you’ve got Req-8 max weapons and full Sentinel’s armor? It was the only way to assure 90%+ uptime on her DPS.
In this thread: idiots that want 1500 range to deal the same damage as melee.
Actually, there wouldn’t be anything wrong with that… IF anet were to introduce a second kind of Bow to the Ranger that actually required manual aiming sort of like Chivalry or an FPS game. Obviously it wouldn’t have Barrage or any other AoE’s made easy skills… but when it hit, it could certainly “cleave” in a straight line just like our Piercing Arrow trait and do even more damage than most Melee chains deal, so long as it required some kind of skill-check. …infact that alone could make us one of the best ‘Dungeon classes’ in the game for certain dungeons that actually have proper open space for longer shots…
Instead of 1.5 sec Auto…10 stacks of Vuln + Bleed “called shot” with a 3 sec cooldown & unscoping like most `Bolt Action` sniping functions.
could be a channeled shot dealing exponentially more dmg the longer it’s charged.
would be a Cripple that also summoned ‘Entangles’ if target was moving.
could be broadhead arrow (would love to see that skill make a come back)
could be the Bleed + Vuln Preparation that also Camouflaged you.
@Dojo
If you’re talking about me, you misunderstand, i’m speaking about the longbow having much lower damage at short than at long range and how it makes no sense to me.
