Guild Wars 2

I know there’s been alot of talk in the past about how rangers should be able to use pistols. But how about adding a crossbow in some future dlc? It could be either a high dps weapon, or a mix between dps and condition. Any thoughts?

To be honest, anything new would be welcomed. Be it a paper plane or crossbow.

Just something new to play with after 2 years.

My problem with adding a crossbow to the class is we already have a longbow which is supposed to be our high power weapon. The 2 would likely fill a similar role.

Personally, I’d prefer we were given a staff to fill the more nature side of the class and give us some much needed group utility.

Brace yourself this may originally sound a little weird.

But I dont think crossbows fit the ranger class at all. Crossbows were originally designed to replace archers as essentially anybody can shoot a crossbow but only skilled persons are able to wield a bow.

Crossbows are heavy and slow (reload speed). Rangers are light armored and swift. I am not intending on shooting down your idea but I just don’t think that it fits the class lore. =(

I would gladly second different types of bows like from guild wars 1, or maybe throwing knives/daggers, or even pistols.

Apparition.1576:

Brace yourself this may originally sound a little weird.

But I dont think crossbows fit the ranger class at all. Crossbows were originally designed to replace archers as essentially anybody can shoot a crossbow but only skilled persons are able to wield a bow.

Crossbows are heavy and slow (reload speed). Rangers are light armored and swift. I am not intending on shooting down your idea but I just don’t think that it fits the class lore. =(

yep, i second this. Crossbow would suit warrior or engineer more than Ranger.

AdziH.2360:

Apparition.1576:

Brace yourself this may originally sound a little weird.

But I dont think crossbows fit the ranger class at all. Crossbows were originally designed to replace archers as essentially anybody can shoot a crossbow but only skilled persons are able to wield a bow.

Crossbows are heavy and slow (reload speed). Rangers are light armored and swift. I am not intending on shooting down your idea but I just don’t think that it fits the class lore. =(

yep, i second this. Crossbow would suit warrior or engineer more than Ranger.

Third. The only advantage crossbows have over normal bows in our world is that they are much, much easier to aim and use and so required next to no training. As has been said crossbows are loaded far slower than normal bows and don’t have the same range as a longbow. Historically speaking, crossbows are for new recruits who didn’t have the time to learn the craft of archery. Rangers are suppose to be highly skilled and trained survivalists.

I am not opposed to a new weapon though. As has been suggested a staff to let us play a more druidic role and explore the mystical side of the profession would be spectacular. Especially if it focuses more on the beast skills we see in attacks like Maul and Swoop and has some strong support options. I want to see some sort of turtle defense that gives us a blocking shield! Maybe it grants us and nearby allies Protection or Retaliation when destroyed. Or a move that grants nearby allies regeneration and cures conditions, and can double as a blast finisher as we leap up and crash down with a watery splash with all the power of a mighty salmon or whale. Or a swiftness granting move ala moa! Lots and lots of options.

If Anet is willing to let us use underwater weapons on land eventually with new land skills (Short of the harpoon gun which makes no sense on land). Spear I think could make a good melee/ranged hybrid weapon option. Make it a power burst weapon, which is something we’re largely lacking. Let us use it in melee with 1-3 skills and throw it like a javelin or hunting spear with 4 and 5, maybe with a bit of stealth on it too so the ranger has a chance to disengage, making melee zerker more viable. I imagine moving in, hitting the enemy with a 900 range burst with 5 that impairs movement in some way, tapping 5 again for a second phase of the attack where you lunge at the pinned opponent to retrieve the spear and engaging in melee combat. Blowing a few more shorter cooldowns to tear the enemy’s health down. Maybe switching to greatsword for a little defense when needed or using the spear’s stealth to disappear, get some distance, and popping out with a longbow for a point blank shot and some ranged damage to finish the enemy off.

I know we don’t currently have access to a trident, but since we’re brainstorming… giving us a trident and letting us use it as a melee crowd control weapon would be awesome. Tridents could have a high cripple up time combined with trips to keep the enemy in place. Maybe have 4 let us throw a net over the enemy for a short immobilize to represent how tridents tended to be used historically for combat by fishermen and gladiators. 5 could have us throw the trident, hook in to the enemy, and pull them to us. It’d be amazing for a trapper ranger.

I want spears on land, spears are fantastic, and while I agree crossbows actually suit warriors and engineers better I would still like one just for looks if nothing else, cause crossbows look cool

Ehecatl.9172:

Spear I think could make a good melee/ranged hybrid weapon option. Make it a power burst weapon, which is something we’re largely lacking. Let us use it in melee with 1-3 skills and throw it like a javelin or hunting spear with 4 and 5, maybe with a bit of stealth on it too so the ranger has a chance to disengage, making melee zerker more viable. I imagine moving in, hitting the enemy with a 900 range burst with 5 that impairs movement in some way, tapping 5 again for a second phase of the attack where you lunge at the pinned opponent to retrieve the spear and engaging in melee combat. Blowing a few more shorter cooldowns to tear the enemy’s health down. Maybe switching to greatsword for a little defense when needed or using the spear’s stealth to disappear, get some distance, and popping out with a longbow for a point blank shot and some ranged damage to finish the enemy off.

I really like the idea of Spear for Ranger. If you ever played a Warden in LOTRO, then you’d have the experience of a similar playstyle in a class that was/is, one of the best of any RPG I’ve played. With Warden, you could use Pin Down with a Javelin Toss, then close in and use a spear to melee. I’d love to see the Gambit system of skill building that is used with Warden as GW2 is limited in available skills, but that would mean a significant overhaul of the skill bar and game mechanics.

Spears would make a great Guardian ranged weapon as well

As for Crossbow, I like the idea of a 1H or off-hand pistol style crossbow for Thieves and Engineers. A 2H Crossbow might work as an option for Guardians.

Ok I like where this thread is going. Lets continue this discussion. These are the weapons we have been discussing thus far.

1) Crossbow

2) Knives/Daggers

3) Pistols

4) Staff

5) Spear (New weapon)

FYI More than likely I will keep editing this post if the thread continues with new ideas. =D

Honestly i don’t think crossbow is as easy to use as you think. Aiming requires a lot of practice, even rifles aren’t easy to use irl. And I can tell since it was part of ny military training.

DanSH.6143:

Honestly i don’t think crossbow is as easy to use as you think. Aiming requires a lot of practice, even rifles aren’t easy to use irl. And I can tell since it was part of ny military training.

It takes years to become accurate with a bow and arrow. It’s a very long, difficult process. That is the entire reason why muskets replaced the longbow in warfare. Muskets load slower and aren’t as accurate as a bow in a master’s hands, but only take a few months to become proficient in it’s use. When one needs soldiers they need them quickly, and the few months to become an expert marksman with a musket or rifle is nothing compared to the few years it takes to reach the same level of precision with a bow.

Why not tie in nature spirits? Instead of run of the mill arrows, why not have something that was imbued with certain animal/nature “aspects”?

A Ranger with a staff would be incredible! The idea of this makes me happy. Lol

Apparition.1576:

Ok I like where this thread is going. Lets continue this discussion. These are the weapons we have been discussing thus far.

1) Crossbow

2) Knives/Daggers

3) Pistols

4) Staff

5) Spear (New weapon)

FYI More than likely I will keep editing this post if the thread continues with new ideas. =D

6) Whips as new offhand weapons, perfect thief and ranger weapons and they already exist in ele lightning whips aswell as NPCs using normal whips.

SooperDooper.3659:

A Ranger with a staff would be incredible! The idea of this makes me happy. Lol

Support ranger is very much needed. We just need an update to Natures Voice so that shouts apply different boons per shout .

Ehecatl.9172:

DanSH.6143:

Honestly i don’t think crossbow is as easy to use as you think. Aiming requires a lot of practice, even rifles aren’t easy to use irl. And I can tell since it was part of ny military training.

It takes years to become accurate with a bow and arrow. It’s a very long, difficult process. That is the entire reason why muskets replaced the longbow in warfare. Muskets load slower and aren’t as accurate as a bow in a master’s hands, but only take a few months to become proficient in it’s use. When one needs soldiers they need them quickly, and the few months to become an expert marksman with a musket or rifle is nothing compared to the few years it takes to reach the same level of precision with a bow.

As someone who has shot with bows and Rifles for along time, let me add a little perspective here……

• In order to hit a proper grouping with a Rifle at 20 yards, it took me almost 2 months., The Rifle was an M-16, 5.56m, 6 bullets. (proper 2.5-3 inch grouping in a Standing position. Hitting a 1 inch grouping in Prone took all of 5 minutes)
• To hit the same grouping with a Bow, it took me the same amount of time. 2 months. The Bow was a Longbow, 42lbs @ 28"
• The grouping was about 2.5-3 inches. Yes, it took 2 months for me to shoot that with a rifle at 20 yards in a standing position, and took just as long with a Longbow.
• 20 yards is equal to about 720 range in Guild Wars 2 (assuming 1 range equals 1 inch)

Lets go outside and go to 30 yards (range was more like 25 with the rifle, and 30~2 with the Bow)

• The 20 yard grouping with am M-16 was enough for the Military. In my own time, I bought and trained with an M-14, which shoots a larger caliber bullet (7.62×51). Its a heavier rifle, has more recoil, and it took me some time (3 months) to get a 2.5-3 inch grouping at 30 yards in a Standing position.
• It took me about 3 months of hard training to hit the same grouping with a Longbow. You have to account for the bows arc, gravity, wind, etc. by the time you are aiming at 30 yards. At 20 yards, you don’t actually notice it all that much, depending on the arrow used.
  30 yards is equal to 1080 range in Guild Wars 2.

50 yards (1800 range in Guild Wars 2)::

• It took another month before I had a 2.5-3 inch grouping with the M-14 at 50 yards. Still in a Standing Position. Even then, I had about a 75% success rate in getting that same grouping after this.
• With a Longbow, it took me even longer. I had the fundamentals down, but there are more variables to account for with a Bow at any range compared with a Rifle. By this time, my skill with a Rifle finally eclipsed my skill with a bow, after 7 months.

100 yards ::

• Can’t get a 3inch grouping with either weapon.

More Info:: (sorry, long post)

• With the Rifles, I was in Standing Position, and used only Iron Sights. There was no scope.
• Standing position, with no support is actually the hardest position you can shoot with. Its actually way easier to shoot in Kneeling or Prone. In Standing, you aren’t actually going to be anymore accurate with a rifle than you are with a bow.
• Iron sights are also much more difficult to aim with than even the simplest of scopes.
• This is mainly where people confuse how easy it is to shoot with a rifle compared to a bow. It is stupid easy to shoot a rifle while laying down. When standing up, its just as difficult as a bow, and training takes just as long.
• You can get supports for a Compound or Recurve bow, and have stability similar to what you would see with a Rifle in Prone position. In which case, its just as easy to shoot out to 100+ yards.
• I didn’t train with them at the same time, it was years apart, but the training time is relative and can be matched up easily.
• You can put scopes on Traditional Bows (specifically recurve bows). A high tech compound bow isn’t required, and with a Sight, as long as you have basic fundamentals down, you can make 100+ yard shots as easily as you could with a rifle.
• Combine stability with a Scope for a bow, and there is no limit to how far you can shoot, just know that past 100 yards, you are doing the same calculations that a sniper does with their rifles at 1+ mile.

On a final note, people are confusing bows in history with a lot of things. Its not necessarily that Bows took longer to train on. One major factor is that Muskets and Rifles were actually easier to manufacture than bows, and took less time. Muskets just needed a generally straight metal tube, and a wooden handle to go around it. Bows required weeks of treating the wood so it was just right. If there was any deformities, then the bow is useless. The string also took some time to make as well. Muskets also require way less maintenance than bows. There was also the loud noises and clouds of black smoke to consider. Training wasn’t everything.

And while the English took years training their Longbow archers, literally from childhood, other countries didn’t spend anywhere near as long, and if the need arose, they could get an Adult Archer trained in about 3-6 months, and even then, all they were required to do was aim up, and fire with everyone else in a huge volley. Un-aimed Musket volleys happened until the mid 1800’s.

In regards to the longbow discussion I believe one reason crossbows would be “easier to use” is you don’t have to be fit at all as you would use special tools to draw the most powerful crossbows where in the case of the biggest longbows you had to be increadibly strong to draw them at all let alone be accurate when shooting it.

Chrispy.5641:

Ehecatl.9172:

DanSH.6143:

Honestly i don’t think crossbow is as easy to use as you think. Aiming requires a lot of practice, even rifles aren’t easy to use irl. And I can tell since it was part of ny military training.

It takes years to become accurate with a bow and arrow. It’s a very long, difficult process. That is the entire reason why muskets replaced the longbow in warfare. Muskets load slower and aren’t as accurate as a bow in a master’s hands, but only take a few months to become proficient in it’s use. When one needs soldiers they need them quickly, and the few months to become an expert marksman with a musket or rifle is nothing compared to the few years it takes to reach the same level of precision with a bow.

As someone who has shot with bows and Rifles for along time, let me add a little perspective here……

• In order to hit a proper grouping with a Rifle at 20 yards, it took me almost 2 months., The Rifle was an M-16, 5.56m, 6 bullets. (proper 2.5-3 inch grouping in a Standing position. Hitting a 1 inch grouping in Prone took all of 5 minutes)
• To hit the same grouping with a Bow, it took me the same amount of time. 2 months. The Bow was a Longbow, 42lbs @ 28"
• The grouping was about 2.5-3 inches. Yes, it took 2 months for me to shoot that with a rifle at 20 yards in a standing position, and took just as long with a Longbow.
• 20 yards is equal to about 720 range in Guild Wars 2 (assuming 1 range equals 1 inch)

Lets go outside and go to 30 yards (range was more like 25 with the rifle, and 30~2 with the Bow)

• The 20 yard grouping with am M-16 was enough for the Military. In my own time, I bought and trained with an M-14, which shoots a larger caliber bullet (7.62×51). Its a heavier rifle, has more recoil, and it took me some time (3 months) to get a 2.5-3 inch grouping at 30 yards in a Standing position.
• It took me about 3 months of hard training to hit the same grouping with a Longbow. You have to account for the bows arc, gravity, wind, etc. by the time you are aiming at 30 yards. At 20 yards, you don’t actually notice it all that much, depending on the arrow used.
  30 yards is equal to 1080 range in Guild Wars 2.

50 yards (1800 range in Guild Wars 2)::

• It took another month before I had a 2.5-3 inch grouping with the M-14 at 50 yards. Still in a Standing Position. Even then, I had about a 75% success rate in getting that same grouping after this.
• With a Longbow, it took me even longer. I had the fundamentals down, but there are more variables to account for with a Bow at any range compared with a Rifle. By this time, my skill with a Rifle finally eclipsed my skill with a bow, after 7 months.

100 yards ::

• Can’t get a 3inch grouping with either weapon.

I really can’t believe it took you the same amount of time to hit the same group of targets with a gun and a bow. That really doesn’t make any sense especially if you were in standing position.

Also, FYI shoot a target 20-30 yards does not make you a marksman of the corresponding weapon. You are merely stating how much time it took you to hit a few targets.

Apparition.1576:

I really can’t believe it took you the same amount of time to hit the same group of targets with a gun and a bow. That really doesn’t make any sense especially if you were in standing position.

Also, FYI shoot a target 20-30 yards does not make you a marksman of the corresponding weapon. You are merely stating how much time it took you to hit a few targets.

FYI, neither does 4 weeks of military training and shooting at pop up targets during the final test. Getting Expert qualification for that was one of the easiest things in basic training, but, that does not make me an expert with the M-4/M-16.

Later on in my military career before I left, I got Expert qualifications in almost every weapon I could get my hands on (including the M-14. The fact I owned one and shot at least twice a month with it helped), and I generally got that expert qualification after a one day class, and nothing else…..still doesn’t mean I’m an expert or a marksman.

If you really think that “Hey, I owned a Rifle for a month, lets go to a Sharpshooting competition and win!”, you’re probably going to get your butt handed to you in many more ways than one.

One final note. I don’t think you quite understand what Standing Position actually is when it comes to shooting. It is the least stable position of the four standard shooting positions (others being kneeling, prone, and sitting). Even actual experts aren’t going to take a shot at standing position unless the target is less than 100 yards away.

Manekk.6981:

In regards to the longbow discussion I believe one reason crossbows would be “easier to use” is you don’t have to be fit at all as you would use special tools to draw the most powerful crossbows where in the case of the biggest longbows you had to be increadibly strong to draw them at all let alone be accurate when shooting it.

English Longbows could require over 100+ pounds just to pull them back all the way. Arbalests (heavy steel crossbows) used a Ratchet of sorts to pull them back all the way.

At the ranges we’re talking about in GW2, a 40-50 pound longbow is all you need to be lethal, and it could shoot much faster than either a Musket, or Crossbows.

also,….

Weapons I want to have for Ranger,

• Maces – Melee CC
• Staff – Support
• Rifle – Shoots Poison/Explosive filled Darts instead of bullets.
• Claws – Melee Condition weapon.
• Spear – Combination Melee/Range DPS weapon.
• Main hand Torch – What? the forest is scary when its dark.

Rym.1469:

To be honest, anything new would be welcomed. Be it a paper plane or crossbow.

Just something new to play with after 2 years.

lolololol

Atherakhia.4086:

My problem with adding a crossbow to the class is we already have a longbow which is supposed to be our high power weapon. The 2 would likely fill a similar role.

Personally, I’d prefer we were given a staff to fill the more nature side of the class and give us some much needed group utility.

i think they’d perform very differently. crossbows fire much slower than regular bows but do a lot more damage, with a slight range decrease(or increase, idk)

Chrispy.5641:

• To hit the same grouping with a Bow, it took me the same amount of time. 2 months. The Bow was a Longbow, 42lbs @ 28"

Draw weights for longbows like the ones made famous at the Battle of Agincourt were in the 90-150 lbs @ 30" range. They weren’t lazily shooting at straw targets, they needed the extra energy to punch through plate armor. So I think the theory that it took a lot longer to train an archer vs. a rifleman is still plausible despite your experience to the contrary.

Muskets had terrible accuracy until the introduction of rifled barrels. Until then, the only effective way to use muskets was to have a group of soldiers fire a bunch of them simultaneously and hope one of the balls hit your target. Basically using about a dozen soldiers as a single grapeshot cannon (enormously helped out by the fact that generals marched their soldiers in formation straight into the line of fire until WWI).

You guys forget this is a video game so the crossbow can have a little asuran tweaking to it.
Instead of a quiver for a backpiece the player can have the leather strap that crosses over the soulder and back like the ones that hold shot gun shells or individual bullets but instead will have circular cartriges of 8 crossbow bolts to use on his/her gas powered semi atomatic crossbow.
I would like to see the whip or some type of silenced hunting rifle and an offhand sword.

I played Age of Conan (before all the class revamps and nerfs) and my ranger was kitten and pretty devistating with the crossbow.
Was my favorite ranger of any game ive played…no pet too.

Some kind of bare-handed or natural weapons, or take on aspects of nature. Fling sand and pebbles to blind, call up swarms of ants or wasps that poison, hands become wood with a bleeding grasp from splintering, imitate a wolf’s cry to grant stability and protection to allies.

Adam.6097:

about adding a crossbow in some future dlc?

Yeah I see future DLC’s happening soon!

To the point: Meh, I hate crossbows unless I’m playing a LOTR orc/uruk hai

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Adam.6097:

about adding a crossbow in some future dlc?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYbetvkPA6I

Yeah I see future DLC’s happening soon!

To the point: Meh, I hate crossbows unless I’m playing a LOTR orc/uruk hai

Best troll post ever hahaha almost fell out of my chair.

Wishful thinking at the most. ANet can’t even get their current skills, traits, and mechanics even remotely balanced now, and they have a surplus of weapons not usable by most classes.

Solandri.9640:

Chrispy.5641:

• To hit the same grouping with a Bow, it took me the same amount of time. 2 months. The Bow was a Longbow, 42lbs @ 28"

Draw weights for longbows like the ones made famous at the Battle of Agincourt were in the 90-150 lbs @ 30" range. They weren’t lazily shooting at straw targets, they needed the extra energy to punch through plate armor. So I think the theory that it took a lot longer to train an archer vs. a rifleman is still plausible despite your experience to the contrary.

Muskets had terrible accuracy until the introduction of rifled barrels. Until then, the only effective way to use muskets was to have a group of soldiers fire a bunch of them simultaneously and hope one of the balls hit your target. Basically using about a dozen soldiers as a single grapeshot cannon (enormously helped out by the fact that generals marched their soldiers in formation straight into the line of fire until WWI).

They needed the extra energy to punch through plate armor at 200+ yards, not at the ranges I described. If I needed to fire an arrow at 200+ yards, and I had to use a 90lb bow (twice the strength of what I use), I could get the proper strength to do it in a few months, not years. That’s if I choose to, but, I don’t need anymore than 42lbs for practice. If I ever get the courage to try bow hunting (who’s success rate is pitiful compared to rifle hunting), I will get a 55lb bow, and practice with that for weeks, not months, until I get the necessary strength to shoot an accurate and lethal shot out to a decent range.

After you get the proper form down (which takes a few weeks), the learning curve for Archery is quite fast (and if I had the time, I could probably hit a 50 yard target reliably in the center in half the time it took, but school and work got in the way), but I keep hearing that it plateaus after awhile, not in your ability to use a stronger bow, but in your accuracy at increasingly longer ranges. If you build up the proper strength and keep proper form, there is no limit to the power of the bow you use (at least for realistic human limits. No human will probably ever achieve a 250+lb draw weight like comic book heroes Hawkeye or Green Arrow)

But the factors in accuracy start to stack up at longer and longer ranges. Its similar to a Rifle actually, but with much greater effect at smaller ranges. Smaller target, Gravity, Arc, Wind, the Earth’s freaking rotation, etc.

And no, Longbowmen were not accurate from 200 yards away. The English used the same tactic with Archers as was used with Muskets when they were invented. They fired a massive amount of arrows, hoping that something would hit. The advantage with an arrow was that it fired in a pretty reliable arc, and if you knew the arc/range of the targets, you could reliably cover a small area in thousands of arrows from any range. As an added bonus, you could fire way more arrows in a short time than you could with musket balls or crossbow bolts. While some archers are very good at what they do, and can get an accurate shot at long ranges, most can’t hit a target reliably past 100 yards, even after years of training because there is way too many factors involved (With Compound Bows, yeah, its not that hard actually, but with a bow with no sight and little stability, and only your two eyes, its kind of difficult, if not impossible)

Muskets were lucky to do that at 50-100 yards, and accuracy wasn’t even considered most of the time, until rifling was invented.

Atherakhia.4086:

My problem with adding a crossbow to the class is we already have a longbow which is supposed to be our high power weapon. The 2 would likely fill a similar role.

Personally, I’d prefer we were given a staff to fill the more nature side of the class and give us some much needed group utility.

No. The crossbow could be a slower and more precise weapon with a range similar to that of the Shortbow.

And it could have EXPLOSIVE SHOTS!

With that said….in Guild wars 2, 40-50lbs is all we need for the ranges in the game to be lethal and be the highest dps weapons, and if you assume that Rifles in the game are still smoothbore (engineer Rifled Barrels trait not included), its reasonable to say they aren’t accurate to as long a range as a longbow, even at the short ranges in the game.

Basically what I’m asking in that last paragraph is….why would a Ranger even bother to pick up a Rifle or Crossbow? It could be for DPS, or we could have some cooler stuff…

The Rifle could be a different kind of long range Condition weapon. Its silenced and uses Stealth, and fires darts instead of bullets, and the darts inflict various conditions. We could even have a cool new grandmaster trait that prevents us from breaking Stealth as long as we have a Rifle equipped.

The Crossbow….still not sure what kind of weapon that could be, but it can’t be a hybrid weapon like the crossbow, and it can’t be dps like the Longbow. We could get a crossbow instead of a rifle and have it fill the same purpose that I described, but, I think its more likely that Anet just gives us the rifle (or more melee/support weapons first). Or we go with Dirame’s idea, and make it a long ranged, AoE explosive weapon, which actually sounds kind of cool.

I’m not really a fan of crossbow for ranger, I don’t think it fits the lore tbh but I have owned one irl it was 205lb draw weight, let me tell you that its too powerful for anything other than buffalo which I have shot and killed with it. Everytime you pull the trigger, you lose the bolt as it just disappears into whatever was behind the prey/target. Its very slow to load in comparison to a compound bow, but the increased aim time is what makes it really slow.

Staff would be great if it had something to do with traps like how we ran trapper with a staff in GW1. Loved that. Or I used to run Strength of Honor on a pet and use a staff and all pet buffs/attacks.

Btw chrispy, if you are serious about bow hunting, I would get a 65lb bow as that extra 10lb makes a big difference to range and penetration. I’m assuming you are not talking about hunting rabbits. I have hunted with bows quite a bit and shots are generally taken at 5-30 yards with the closer the better, that’s where your field craft comes into play, close up. But you still need the power to penetrate bone, even with razor sharp broadheads.

If you wanna see a real mans bow, take a look at a 13th century Mongolian reflex bow, made from bone, sinew and glue made from fish, the draw weight can be up to 220lb, but they generally shoot those with a thumb instead of fingers. That’s 220lb you have to hold, no cams to reduce the let off, its 220lb all day

These guys were ALL accurate over 100m with these bows, could fire off an accurate shot from horseback every 6s. The best archers amongst them would be able to hit an egg at 100m and 200m is well within range for them. At the Mongolian Nadam, the best shot recorded is a bullseye at over 400m.

Why it takes a LOT longer to become masterful on a bow is because if you are a true master of a bow, you are shooting it instinctively, ie not aiming it, you just draw and release, your body knows how to do that so the arrow goes where your eye is looking only by years and years of training. To do the same with a rifle can take minutes as you have a very accurate sighting system that allows you to know immediately if your body is aligning to your eye. And anyone can be a master shot with a rifle, it is very very easy. Its not about remaining steady, its just about knowing when your trigger will
break and being on the target when that happens. I coached lots of terrible shots to pass their basic marksmanship tests in the Army with that piece of advice. Being as steady as possible does help though

Many people shoot at ranges MUCH further than 100m standing (offhand), here in Australia we shoot a discipline called silhouette and shoot at pig sized steel plate targets at 400m offhand, many people can get 6 /10. 30 yards is the minimum distance we shoot there and then only with .22LR rifles. When I was in the Army, our “Crossed Rifles” (marksman) shoot was a 48 shot series that included moving targets at 100m while standing.

If they added crossbow, it should be to replace warrior bow with the same skills and leave the longbows to us.

If it had to happen, make ranger a mobile ballista.

Crossbow could easily be the slow but heavy hitting weapon like I said earlier. For example;

Auto: Penetrating Attack; Deals damage and applies vulnerability
2 – Sundering Attack; Deals 10% more damage if target has vulnerabilty
3 – Screaming Shot; Target is interrupted, deals damage, gain swiftness your pets next attack applies 3 stacks of torment
4 – Sloth Hunter’s Shot; Deal damage, deal 50% more damage from behind or the side.
5 – Precision Shot; Unblockable; Removes 2 boons from the target and grants you stability for 3s

And all these could have a quarter or 1s cast times.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

…snip…

The heaviest bow I know of that was ever drawn to the maximum is a world record of 200 lbs. It was an English Longbow. He shot at only a 5 yard target because he only wanted the weight record, but still…..You can watch a cool youtube video of a 225 lb bow, but no one’s actually pulling it back, aiming for a shot, because it has a 37" draw length.

On the hunting thing, I’m in America, I want to kill me a delicious deer! A 55lb bow with broad head arrows is more than strong enough for a lethal shot. Actually the 42lb bow would work, unless it was the generally larger mule deer. Since I live somewhere where the two species live in the same place, I need a bow/arrow that is lethal to both.

As far as Mongolian bows go, there are several problems I can think of…..

• 13th Century Mongolian Composite/reflex/horse bows were not the same construction as the ‘traditional’ bows you see today.
• Those ‘traditional’ Mongolian bows with their distinctive shape didn’t actually exist until 2-300 years later.
• They were constructed in a way that allows a slight increase in the arrows energy on release, allowing the arrow to fly farther, but the arc wasn’t anymore reliable than any other bow/arrow at the time.
• It is true that you can hear of these bows making shots to 500+ meters….well, not exactly. Ancient stories of these shots cannot be reliably verified, especially if its coming from a conqueror who wants to tell stories of how great his armies are to the rest of the world. There’s going to be some fluff added to that number.
• The world record for the longest accurate shot was made by an Australian, it was 200 meters, and it was hitting a 122 cm target. He hit it 2 out of 6 times, and I’m saying the entire meter wide target, not just the center. While I want to believe ancient stories of the prowess of these Mongolian and English archers, they are just that, stories.

On the rifle thing, I can hit a moving target at 100 meters easy with a lighter rifle like an M-4 10 out of 10 times. I also have no problems hitting a 300 meter target. With a heavier rifle (like an M-14/M1a), slightly more difficult, especially in Standing. ITs easy to hit pig/human sizes targets, but are those shots deadly? I’m not concerned with just hitting the silhouette, never was. I want deadly accuracy! I want that 3cm~in grouping, and I want deadly accuracy unassisted with any scope or bi/tripods! I have an ACOG and a very stable tripod for the M-4, and I can hit dead center at almost any range, but nothing beats the feeling of doing the same thing using iron sights, and doing it in a (mostly)unstable standing position.

I’m not being a tool here or anything, no desire for argument, BUT…

Check out a Hungarian by the name of Mónus. In 2010 he broke that Nadaam long range shooting record I was talking about and hit the target at 508.74m. He also later scored hits at 603 and 704m. He was also able to hit a 15mm post at 240m twice in 11 arrows.

I totally believe that the Mongols of the 13th century were witheringly accurate at 100m with their bows, accurate enough for headshots at that distance and centre of seen mass type shooting at 200m+. Think about it, they were using these bows as soon as they could lift one, their whole lives, every single day, hours of training. They used to tie children to the backs of sheep to learn to ride before they could walk.

The funny thing about the Mongol conquests, is that they did not record much themselves, they had no written language until after much of their main conquests, so they are quite different in the respect that they were not the ones recording their history. Which is why you see their numbers often exaggerated, giving rise to the thought of an immense ‘Horde’ (which comes from the Mongolian for camp) riding out of the hills and sweeping away all in their path, but its not the case, the mongol armies were ALWAYS outnumbered, they just always won due to their bows, their accuracy with them and their manouverability and tactics.

Those long distances are indeed impressive, but those aren’t target shots. They’re distance shots.

The 1.5cm pole at 240 meters is very impressive, but it wasn’t twice in 11 arrows. It was once after four shots, and once after nine shots. He achieved this by shooting an arrow, then correcting for wind and other factors, the exact same way you would with a rifle. He also had to adjust quite a bit, shooting as much as seven meters off target.

If he was given only 6 arrows, and told to shoot a 122cm wide target at 200 meters, he might be able to beat the current world record, but based on the number of shots, and how he adjusted his shots, its not too unreasonable to say that the current record will stand for now. And the reason I like this world record is because all the factors were far more tightly controlled. Even with a man of his skill, you can’t just give him a bow and arrow, then tell him to hit a flagpole at 240 meters and expect him to do it every time.

He also used bows with a weight of 100 lb, I haven’t found anything saying that he uses 200 lb bows (and if the Mongolians did, they should have been able to fling arrows way farther than this world record holder). this guy and his son(who also holds several world records) also have all the benefits of modern day technology and engineering precision, unlike 13th Mongol hordes. And even more impressive, is that he and his son started to practice archery in 2006. He broke records between 2008 and 2011 and probably still is. That’s not many years worth of training, but a tiny few years worth (being a mechanical engineer with an almost kittenly accurate eye for numbers probably helped too)

He wants to shoot an arrow a distance of over 900 meters, and he wants to accurately hit a human sized target at 300 meters, but as of 2011, hasn’t yet (haven’t found any articles after that date, going to search later).

And lastly, I’m not trying to argue, I just don’t believe all the facts about ancient archery and warfare because there are way too many things that contradict them. I hate reading facts about how it takes ‘years’ to train an archer, and statements about how Archers were so pinpoint accurate that they dominated battlefields, and especially things that say Medieval Archers were using Bows with pull weights that were as strong as steel crossbows at the time.

I’m perhaps a bit romantic when it comes to Mongol reflex bows hehe. I use the hardwood longbow skin in-game as it’s the closest thing I can find for realism. :-)
Remember that their arrows were much heavier than those used for distance shots, which would increase the penetrative energy, but lower range.
I also believe men were much stronger back in the day and would have been able to use such bows with practice. 80 years ago, you weren’t a man unless you could lift your body weight above your head, now less than 1% could do that. Literally anyone can pick up a bow and shoot it with reasonable accuracy, slowly, over short distances and limited number of shots, but when people think of a master of archery, its the opposite of these things and that does take years of practice. To shoot an English longbow is pretty easy as mostly they are arcing volley fire and the draw lengths are huge which means the weight can be a lot less and still accelerate the arrow. So the peasants could be used to use them effectively pretty quickly.