Guild Wars 2

ranger longbow did not need stealth
it needed damage

this was a NERF

the old longbow strategy was press 3 -> 2 so you take advantage of those delicious 10 stacks of vulnerability

now your rapid fire hardly gets any benefit

thanks anet
I didn’t need a stealth I could survive just fine.

I need bigger kittening numbers period.

epicjesusfacepalm

Longbow got more damage in the june patch. The stealth is great for weapon swapping or escaping. Personally, I think it’s a hell of a lot more fun to play longbow with the stealth.

What.. you cant be serious right?

Kasama.8941:

Longbow got more damage in the june patch.

how do you figure?

Stealth is incredibly poweful.

Having Stealth is a direct damage increase for you on a Ranger

Because every second you’re not dead, the more damage you’ll end up doing.

Dutch Master.7208:

Kasama.8941:

Longbow got more damage in the june patch.

how do you figure?

Long Range Shot: Reduced the aftercast from .5 seconds to .25 seconds. Increased the arrow speed by 15%.
Rapid Fire: Reduced the initial cast time by .4 seconds. Increased the arrow speed by 15%.
Point Blank Shot: Increased the arrow speed by 15%.
Barrage: Increased the cripple duration by 50%.

Faster attack speed equals more damage.

Dutch Master.7208:

Kasama.8941:

Longbow got more damage in the june patch.

how do you figure?

How do we figure? Where have you been, dude? Longbow has been one of our highest DPS weapons since the huge longbow buff just last balance patch. Everyone who’s good understands this change: because longbow has little defensive control or mobility, you’re screwed if you skirmish with it. That’s why the stealth works and why you are getting all worked up over something they’ve already given you.

elprimo.4398:

epicjesusfacepalm

omfg this made me laugh so hard hahahahaaha!

Kasama.8941:

Faster attack speed equals more damage.

ah I see, I thought you meant in today’s patch.

Even with the damage buff earlier this month I still find the longbow damage lacking.

And today’s changes have reduced the damage output. We lost an instant 10 stacks of vulnerability that we could throw on before bursting and instead gained a defensive survival skill. Horrible trade in my opinion.

but we got stealth!!!!! its stealth!!! we can pretend to be a thief for 3 seconds!!!! thats much better than vuln in my opinion

You can have your opinion it’s just that you are on your own. Even Burnfall is excited over these changes and he’s the most hilarious and over the top debbie downer on the forums.

Dutch Master.7208:

Kasama.8941:

Faster attack speed equals more damage.

ah I see, I thought you meant in today’s patch.

Even with the damage buff earlier this month I still find the longbow damage lacking.

And today’s changes have reduced the damage output. We lost an instant 10 stacks of vulnerability that we could throw on before bursting and instead gained a defensive survival skill. Horrible trade in my opinion.

I’ve played longbow since beta, and I found the change to make quite an impact. I noticed I was able to kill running foes with the longbow, that would just have outran the damage before the patch. I also noticed that when hitting a foe, while standing on top of a wall, I was actually able to put a lot more pressure on him, or even down him. Where as before, most players would just more or less ignore the longbow damage.

The point is, that the longbow now works a lot better for weapon swapping, instead of just being a weapon that you only use at max range. The stealth allows you to close or increase the gap between you and your opponents, or simply drop his target on you and change positioning. It means the longbow now acts as a much more active weapon.

my point is that this was a damage nerf for the longbow and nobody realizes it because theyre happy about this fun new stealth mechanic.

The only way the damage is potentially NOT reduced is if you take the Remorseless trait so you can get opening strikes again after stealthing.

Ranger can still apply their vulnerability, but they can no longer put it to use with rapid fire. Now after making an enemy vulnerable its either stand there and auto attack or switch weapons to get some burst.

I have faith in Anet, they are trying out stuff, give them time and we will have a perfect ranger!

The only place I can think of where instant 10 stacks is better than current rapid fire/hunters shot is in dungeons versus a boss.

But who cares? You’re probably using sword/torch (all zerk stats) with axe/axe (that just got retaliation).

If your non PUG dungeon team can’t max out vulnerability without longbow, you got serious problems, budro, that go way beyond your vulnerability stacking.

Xsorus.2507:

Stealth is incredibly poweful.

Having Stealth is a direct damage increase for you on a Ranger

Because every second you’re not dead, the more damage you’ll end up doing.

I really hate this argument
I am talking about damage here. “Burst” damage.

If what you said had any relevance then we would see CoF speedrun groups wearing soldiers gear instead of berzerkers.

Xsorus.2507:

Stealth is incredibly poweful.

Having Stealth is a direct damage increase for you on a Ranger

Because every second you’re not dead, the more damage you’ll end up doing.

He’s almost certainly talking about PvE. The honest truth is that if you had survival issues with the longbow prior to this change, you probably doing it wrong.

The stealth is incredibly awesome, but it’s primarily a PvP (aside from using it as a Remorseless engine).

Dutch Master.7208:

Xsorus.2507:

Stealth is incredibly poweful.

Having Stealth is a direct damage increase for you on a Ranger

Because every second you’re not dead, the more damage you’ll end up doing.

I really hate this argument
I am talking about damage here. “Burst” damage.

If what you said had any relevance then we would see CoF speedrun groups wearing soldiers gear instead of berzerkers.

Ahh you’re talking about PVE

Which actually i think makes less sense, Since Vulnerability will be stack to 25 in most fights anyway with or without longbow.

Dutch Master.7208:

Xsorus.2507:

Stealth is incredibly poweful.

Having Stealth is a direct damage increase for you on a Ranger

Because every second you’re not dead, the more damage you’ll end up doing.

I really hate this argument
I am talking about damage here. “Burst” damage.

If what you said had any relevance then we would see CoF speedrun groups wearing soldiers gear instead of berzerkers.

“Remorseless: This trait now reapplies Opening Strike when the ranger gains stealth…”

“Precise Strike: Opening strike always critical hits. "

How is this not a “Burst” damage boost?

It’s just a Ranger and his bear…move along people.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

“Remorseless: This trait now reapplies Opening Strike when the ranger gains stealth…”

“Precise Strike: Opening strike always critical hits. "

How is this not a “Burst” damage boost?

okay I guess I have to take Remorseless now.
goodbye signet of the beastmaster

Dutch Master.7208:

Xsorus.2507:

Stealth is incredibly poweful.

Having Stealth is a direct damage increase for you on a Ranger

Because every second you’re not dead, the more damage you’ll end up doing.

I really hate this argument
I am talking about damage here. “Burst” damage.

If what you said had any relevance then we would see CoF speedrun groups wearing soldiers gear instead of berzerkers.

You want a tier 1 DPS build for cof? Here ya go—no longbow! You don’t need longbow here, at all. This is basically what I do in fractals 48 and it’s huge DPS. It’s permanent 25 might stacks on pet. It’s sick.

20 (spotter) / 30 (companion’s might) / 0 / 20 (vigorous spirit/strength of spirit)/ 0

Sword/warhorn and axe/axe with sigils of perception and strength.

Full berserker

Quickening zephyr / frost spirit / optional

Stalker / optional (gap filler pet)

See the thread Mighty Ranger High Level FOTM for more details.

It’s not necessarily that longbow’s damage is lacking. It is, obviously… because a power build with shortbow is just as/more effective… but I’d be fine with the damage longbow did if the class was actually capable of doing BURST damage.

Burst is what makes a difference in a fight. Single target sustained damage doesn’t do anything. The only reason Necro’s make it work is because they’re doing more damage to everyone and not just a single target.

Burst is what this class lacks. It’s boring as all hell to play because it doesn’t have it. There’s a reason this class’ sole build right now is regen/condi spec.

Dutch, its broken right now, but even if it wasn’kittens probably still not a great pick if you use Signets, all 3 of those Signets will do far more damage then gaining opening strikes again I imagine.

though you’re in PVE, so you probably don’t need the Signet Actives as much.

Atherakhia.4086:

It’s not necessarily that longbow’s damage is lacking. It is, obviously… because a power build with shortbow is just as/more effective… but I’d be fine with the damage longbow did if the class was actually capable of doing BURST damage.

Burst is what makes a difference in a fight. Single target sustained damage doesn’t do anything. The only reason Necro’s make it work is because they’re doing more damage to everyone and not just a single target.

Burst is what this class lacks. It’s boring as all hell to play because it doesn’t have it. There’s a reason this class’ sole build right now is regen/condi spec.

You must not of played a Maul Build before

You can pop people for 10k with the right setup.

Granted the Sustain on it blows, and you’ll die if you fight any competent bunker build, but we do in fact have Burst Damage.

Xsorus.2507:

Dutch, its broken right now, but even if it wasn’kittens probably still not a great pick if you use Signets, all 3 of those Signets will do far more damage then gaining opening strikes again I imagine.

though you’re in PVE, so you probably don’t need the Signet Actives as much.

Meh, sotw cooldown is too long it’s not worth it. I only run signets with SOTB for stone invuln on my first pass through a new dungeon.

Top DPS and group boons for dungeon content is something like 20/30/0/20/0 or 20/25/0/25/0 or 25/30/0/15/0 with spirits.

I not bullkittenting dude. Spirits are good in dungeons IF you take Vigorous spirits, which, you should because fortifying bond is a MUST in dungeons to overcome aoe limit on boons. Boon sharing is only way pet reliably gets boons.

Chopps.5047:

Xsorus.2507:

Dutch, its broken right now, but even if it wasn’kittens probably still not a great pick if you use Signets, all 3 of those Signets will do far more damage then gaining opening strikes again I imagine.

though you’re in PVE, so you probably don’t need the Signet Actives as much.

Meh, sotw cooldown is too long it’s not worth it. I only run signets with SOTB for stone invuln on my first pass through a new dungeon.

Top DPS and group boons for dungeon content is something like 20/30/0/20/0 or 20/25/0/25/0 or 25/30/0/15/0 with spirits.

I not bullkittenting dude. Spirits are good in dungeons IF you take Vigorous spirits, which, you should because fortifying bond is a MUST in dungeons to overcome aoe limit on boons. Boon sharing is only way pet reliably gets boons.

Spirit Builds aren’t bad in Dungeons, not great.. but not bad.

But yea, I could see where Signet of the Wild wouldn’t be amazing in PVE.

Ya, maybe, Xsorsus, I don’t know…some have said I’m easy to please. I don’t wan to say SOTW is bad in dungeons because it’s not—regen for pet is great. Just wanted to clear that up for anyone who might be reading.

Xsorus.2507:

Atherakhia.4086:

It’s not necessarily that longbow’s damage is lacking. It is, obviously… because a power build with shortbow is just as/more effective… but I’d be fine with the damage longbow did if the class was actually capable of doing BURST damage.

Burst is what makes a difference in a fight. Single target sustained damage doesn’t do anything. The only reason Necro’s make it work is because they’re doing more damage to everyone and not just a single target.

Burst is what this class lacks. It’s boring as all hell to play because it doesn’t have it. There’s a reason this class’ sole build right now is regen/condi spec.

You must not of played a Maul Build before

You can pop people for 10k with the right setup.

Granted the Sustain on it blows, and you’ll die if you fight any competent bunker build, but we do in fact have Burst Damage.

Oh I have… I kind of set myself up for failure with this class because I want it to be something ANet apparently doesn’t want it to be. A bow user.

Trust me, I’ve tried it all but I just couldn’t make it fit with what I wanted despite playing the ranger archetype for 20 years in mmos. It’s my fault, I freely admit it.

How not? You run longbow/greatsword with the valkryie build. It’s better now because before, if the initial burst wasn’t enough, now you’re in melee range with longbow. That used to be a death sentence. Because if you miss point blank shot, if it’s blocked, or if they use stability, you’re basically screwed. At least now we have two defensive options on the longbow instead of just one.

“Keep your peanut butter out of my chocolate.”

- PvE Player

I’m reserving judgement until I’ve had time to properly see everything, but what I want more than anything is devs with a clear vision that includes both pve and pvp.

Even if the damage is slightly lower, this change adds a lot more variety and possibilities in the way the LB is used.

There was really nothing interesting you could do with the longbow before. #4 was always fun but thats it really. With a nice stealth there are plenty of opportunies for more creative play.

i have a question, people are complaining about pve ….i dont pve at all but…would this not be a free agro wipe with a mechanic to make up for the dip in sustained damage with the opening strike crit on stealth? ( i know its bugged right now) but it seems clear as day that you can now go balls to the wall then wipe agro with stealth.

lastly, in wvw a bow ranger is the easiest thing to kill out there. giving them 3 seconds to figure something out is a help to them i would imagine. and in a group fight being able to force a target drop is priceless.

hyjaxxx.1584:

i have a question, people are complaining about pve ….i dont pve at all but…would this not be a free agro wipe with a mechanic to make up for the dip in sustained damage with the opening strike crit on stealth? ( i know its bugged right now) but it seems clear as day that you can now go balls to the wall then wipe agro with stealth.

Thats if you go 30 into MM and take the trait. I’d argue that even then there are better traits than remorseless to pick. If you don’t go 30 into MM what you got today in PvE at least is a dps decrease with an agro drop that you may have not even needed.

I’m hoping that this patch today has laid the foundation for a consolidation of MM traits, because right now we have too many vital traits there with too little space.

I love the stealth. You need to save it up through. Don’t use it like the old hunter’s shot where you want it on cooldown.

stealth into point blank shot off a cliff
stealth into barrage
stealth into weapon swap→anything else
stealth into flanking position
stealth into letting the pet fight alone
stealth into weapon swap into escapes
stealth into 3 seconds of invulnerability and 3 seconds of regenerating

It’s a really great utility that opens up a lot of posibilities.

Vadrillan.9185:

Miflett.3472:

hyjaxxx.1584:

would this not be a free agro wipe with a mechanic to make up for the dip in sustained damage with the opening strike crit on stealth?

Thats if you go 30 into MM and take the trait.

It’s 25 points for the crit on Opening Strikes btw, no major trait needed. Just saying.

I obviously know that, but to make that trait even slightly worth it you need the 30. I said that in the broad context of which he replied which made it sound like a free benefit when it most certainly isn’t.

No, it was my misreading that he was talking about the crit from stealth (it’s late/early).

It’s definitely not a freebie. And yes, some consolidation of traits is well needed.

I’ve been using Longbow since the BWE’s..PVE, WvW, PvP…I think the overall effect of these changes, and those in the prior patch, is a better result. Aside from the numbers, the weapon-set plays better situationally…the value of stealth cannot be over-stated. Sorry, but if you don’t see it as a hugely important tool, you’re not paying attention.

Longbow is not a burst or high DPS weapon, though many try to use it as such…it is an extremely useful delivery system however, and once you accept that, all will be well.

Longbow…

Dutch Master.7208:

Kasama.8941:

Faster attack speed equals more damage.

ah I see, I thought you meant in today’s patch.

It’s July

Dutch Master.7208:

Even with the damage buff earlier this month

It’s July

Dutch Master.7208:

And today’s changes have reduced the damage output. We lost an instant 10 stacks of vulnerability that we could throw on before bursting and instead gained a defensive survival skill. Horrible trade in my opinion.

Fair enough, but honestly I can only think of this as a good change. Think of how bad Longbow is in close range. This gives you time to put distance between you and your enemies once they begin to close in on you

more stealth stomps

that’s what everyone needed.

Xsorus.2507:

Spirit Builds aren’t bad in Dungeons, not great.. but not bad.

But yea, I could see where Signet of the Wild wouldn’t be amazing in PVE.

One of the problems with ranger builds in PvE is that what else would you bring? Signet builds in PvE are fantastic for their passive bonuses to pets. Pets have survivability issues but signets help mitigate this somewhat (not enough, but it is noticeable). The stability does come in handy (although it’s not optimal, it does let you cheese a lot of stuff) and the damage buff is nice. Having a reason to bring SotH never hurt either, the movement buff is primarily a quality of life thing rather than necessary or high value, but a signet build does make it easier to have it on the bar. The actives on signets still have painfully long cooldowns, but that plays alright with their power level and passive bonuses (unlike other classes, ranger signet passives have increased value when you have face tanking pets).

Look at the non-signet options. Shouts are kind of gimmicky and not particularly powerful (none of them are obvious inclusions like “For Great Justice!” or banners, they all are very niche tools aside from “Sick ’Em” which is a clunky and boring DPS skill designed for PvP with generic DPS use in PvE) and spirits are unreliable outside of optimised groups, and even then only Frost Spirit is worth bringing (it’s not significantly weaker or stronger than banners but it is significantly less reliable due to range limitations with careful placement, its fragility and the lack of a blast finisher). Wilderness survival gives CC which is almost useless for it’s primary use because line of sighting is far more powerful than CC in an optimised group (unless you are fighting someone like the Mossman) and Lightning Reflexes and Quickening Zephyr don’t really stand out compared to Signet of Stone and Signet of the Wild respectively (they both either provide an “Oh kitten” button or a DPS increase which different twists on them but signets benefit pets with both their actives and passives).

Fortifying Bond has always been one of the ranger traits with the most potential (it has clunky/buggy and hidden boon duration limitations which make it’s use very difficult to measure) but it was held back by pet survivability (which has gotten better) and a lack of reliable access to boons to pass on (which has evolved with the meta where a lot of players are bringing boons in their builds). It was also made significantly more important when they nerfed pet priority on boons.

There isn’t a lot of complexity to ranger DPS when it comes to utility skills. You either pick the passive DPS buffs which aren’t particularly interesting (“Sick ’Em”, Frost Spirit, Quickening Zephyr and to a lesser extent, untraited Signet of the Wild) or you settle for defensive mechanics. Signets are kind of a middle ground that might have a long cool down, but their passives are useful for pets and their actives are noticeably powerful. Ranger DPS utilities are far too passive. They basically read as “use this to do more DPS for a few seconds”. Signet of the Wild might not be great, but neither is its competition.

I’m not on board with spirits in dungeons. Until they compete with banners in terms of reliability, they aren’t good enough (in terms of design, not in terms of whether they contribute more than other utilities). Their survivability issue needs to be solved (not lessened) and their actives need to be reworked to be reliably used in PvE. Something like turning their actives into a ground targeted skill is basically needed for as long as getting close to their target means near certain death. The reality is, even rangers that do bring them are not utilising them for their 100% design potential because their survivability issues are direct counters to their actives. It certainly doesn’t help that their cool down is so long, with a shorter cooldown, shorter cast times and traited actives on deaths I could see them being fun with their current survivability (kind of like bombs).

I’m still on board with Remorseless being limited in its design with the longbow. It’s basically a longbow trait now, but it’s horribly placed to compete with every longbow trait other than Quick Draw. These issues aren’t so bad in PvP, but in PvE I suspect Spotter and Piercing Arrows edge out this trait in terms of how well they help the longbow builds without sacrificing other weapons to do so.

Ok, so moving the 10 stacks of vulnerability from Hunter’s Shot to Rapid Fire means a full Rapid Fire channel early in a fight does a couple hundred less damage.

The burst potential of the longbow in many situations has just been boosted, though, because of the range increase for Point Blank Shot, which hits much harder than Hunter’s Shot and can now be used more offensively because it’s no longer the only defensive tool on the longbow. Your dungeon group might not appreciate you knocking targets away as part of your burst combo, but they probably don’t really like you using a longbow instead of a sword anyway most of the time.

Your dungeon group was probably also stacking vulnerability from other sources too, so they don’t care that you no longer apply it with Hunter’s Shot. If your group actually was relying on you to help stack vulnerability and keep it up, you actually do that better now because it’s been shifted to a skill with a shorter cooldown and higher DPS.

And that’s not even getting into the million different ways stealth is useful.

Basically, the benefit of these changes makes the loss of the 10 vulnerability on Hunter’s Shot look absolutely trivial. If you are complaining about this, you aren’t just looking for a reason to be unhappy, you’re looking hard.

Stice.5204:

Ok, so moving the 10 stacks of vulnerability from Hunter’s Shot to Rapid Fire means a full Rapid Fire channel early in a fight does a couple hundred less damage.

The burst potential of the longbow in many situations has just been boosted, though, because of the range increase for Point Blank Shot, which hits much harder than Hunter’s Shot and can now be used more offensively because it’s no longer the only defensive tool on the longbow. Your dungeon group might not appreciate you knocking targets away as part of your burst combo, but they probably don’t really like you using a longbow instead of a sword anyway most of the time.

Your dungeon group was probably also stacking vulnerability from other sources too, so they don’t care that you no longer apply it with Hunter’s Shot. If your group actually was relying on you to help stack vulnerability and keep it up, you actually do that better now because it’s been shifted to a skill with a shorter cooldown and higher DPS.

And that’s not even getting into the million different ways stealth is useful.

Basically, the benefit of these changes makes the loss of the 10 vulnerability on Hunter’s Shot look absolutely trivial. If you are complaining about this, you aren’t just looking for a reason to be unhappy, you’re looking hard.

I don’t buy the argument that “other classes can stack vulnerability thus making the ranger’s ability to do it worse doesn’t matter”. Reducing the ranger’s ability to participate in something that is desirable (even if it’s not rare or exclusive) is going to hurt the class. I haven’t tested the vulnerability potential of the longbow yet (Rapid Fire is worse than old Hunter’s Shot but Remorseless + Hunter’s Shot (and possible triggers from guard and jaguar stealth, assuming it works that way) might make longbow just as good if not better at vulnerability application. It doesn’t help that Remorseless uses the same real estate as one of the best dungeon utilities (Spotter) and an almost necessary longbow trait (Piercing Arrows) so even if Remorseless works well with Hunter’s Shot, it has a significant cost.

I also don’t believe old Hunter’s Shot was worse at applying vulnerability compared to the new Rapid Fire. Unless you’re in a close range, Rapid Fire is a DPS loss on the longbow. Long Range Shot does greater DPS at 1,200 range. Hunter’s Shot allowed you to trigger your vulnerability quickly without a long channel skill, allowing you to go back to spamming Long Range Shot. Now you need to wait out the full duration of Rapid Fire to gain the vulnerability stacks, which is time you are spending using a lower DPS skill than Long Range Shot (assuming you can utilise the longbow to it’s greatest strength and stay at 1,200 range, which in PvE, you should be able to do). I think people are being fair when they criticise this change in PvE.

I tried combining Opening Strike and Remorseless with Barrage in hopes that it has similair functionality to Sharpening Stone (turning the first wave of barrage into an AoE vulnerability skill, allowing you to follow with Hunter’s Shot turning another wave into a second application of vulnerability) but it appears that it doesn’t work that way. Barrage only applied vulnerability to one target. I don’t understand why that’s not the same as Sharpening Stone.

Sieg.8439:

It’s July

Alright it was just under a month ago, at the end of June. you know what patch I am referring to sheesh.

Stice.5204:

If you are complaining about this, you aren’t just looking for a reason to be unhappy, you’re looking hard.

Didn’t have to look very hard at all actually, I noticed the clunkiness of this new stealth skill in my first few minutes of play today. It added something totally unnecessary to the longbow without addressing the real problem of the weapon that has been around since literally the launch of the game: its lack of damage.

You can actually do more damage with the new skill set up now… I tried this today already all across PvE and WvW…

If you have opening Strike, you can use Rapid Fire, apply 10 stacks of vulnerability + 5 from opening strike, +5 from your pet. You can then stealth, then regain opening strike with the Remorseless Trait, apply 5 more stacks of vulnerability + 5 more from your pet. This equals 30, but the first stacks of vulnerability you applied are already going to be worn off, plus you can;t go higher than 25 anyways, but by then, you should have that barrage already going, and Rapid Fire and Hunter’s Shot are already almost recharged, so you can just apply more vulnerability. Rapid Fire is even more loads of awesome if you have the Piercing Arrows Trait as well!

You don’t really have to use stealth for any other purpose than to apply a quick, free, extra 10 stacks of vulnerability on top of what you already have, which is what I use it for most of the time.

i think it was a good step in the right direction. only a little, but good one. i hope the will give us something like kill shot just we need stealth and it replaces the auto attack while we hide. name it sniper’s shot!

Chrispy.5641:

You can actually do more damage with the new skill set up now… I tried this today already all across PvE and WvW…

You can then stealth, then regain opening strike with the Remorseless Trait, apply 5 more stacks of vulnerability + 5 more from your pet.

Remorseless only reapplies opening strike to the ranger, not to the pet. I tested it in the mists just to be sure.

Is remorseless better than eagle eye + piercing and using stealth to reposition? Rather than maximizing vuln stacks with the improved remorseless trait?

Currently using 30/20/20 but looking at at least 30/20/5/0/15 for the added pet damage